The first mentions of KQ ever on the Internet/The KQ/Sierra On-Line Archives
Not exactly newsworthy, but I thought it was interesting for it's sentimental value. These are from the Usenet Archives--the first iteration of the "Internet" dating all the way back to around 1980.
The VERY FIRST mention of King's Quest on the internet happened on January 15th, 1985; A James. W Hoffman was asking for help:
"My children (age 8-9) managed to map out all of King's Quest but
have no idea where to begin. Any hints for them or clues
for getting around some of the bad guys or how
to get the treasures?"
http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/browse_thread/thread/c8bb67f99917bddf/5db4b79a56b61cfa?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#5db4b79a56b61cfa
Followed by another post on February 25th, 1985 also asking for help, by an R. Curtis Jackson:
http://groups.google.com/group/net.games.video/browse_thread/thread/b588d4bd4fba9c53/b26b7877190ebaf2?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#b26b7877190ebaf2
"I have a friend who needs desperately to know how to move the
boulder in the cave -- he's figured everything else and it is
driving him and about four of his buddies crazy. He has stooped
to asking for a complete spoiler, so I told him I would see what
the Usenet could do."
Two posts in November 1985, the first by a Michael Lopez, the second by a David Somner: http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/browse_thread/thread/695dfb14410ca505/4ae7865d2cb810f0?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#4ae7865d2cb810f0
" Does anyone know how to :
1) move the huge boulder in the cave
2) find the mirror
3) find a cutting tool to cut the bucket off the rope in the well
4) find the shield
5) use the cheese for some purpose
6) use the note from the witches house
7) how to avoid the dwarf
8) to guess the gnomes name? What is it?
9) to make the giant fall asleep faster "
"Hmmm... I tried to get this game about 2 years ago, but was told by several
people that this game wasn't being made any more... Could someone tell
me where it might be possible for me to get a copy? Even better yet, could
someone post a listing of games for the IBM-PC saying where to order them
from, and the price? I think that a lot of people could benefit from this.
-Dave S."
It's now January 1986 and Michael Lopez still hasn't finished KQ1, he writes another post asking for help: http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/browse_thread/thread/8e52e917c7bfa81e/d93df94ae3a098ee?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#d93df94ae3a098ee
"I've finally got all of the items - the mirror, the shield, and
the chest - but, when I go to the king, I'm not sure what I'm supposed
to do. If I try to talk to him, he says to come closer, but I cannot
get any closer to him. Any suggestions would be apprieciated
Thanx
Mike"
More people asking for help, February 1986: http://groups.google.com/group/net.games/browse_thread/thread/ef092e82679db59e/34062bd79222506?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#034062bd79222506
"After you have all three treasures, how do you get
the king to stop asking you to come closer?
Is there any way to find out the gnome's name?
How does the magic ring work?
What are the gold egg and gold walnut for?
-thanx, Steve Miller ihnp4!bambi!steve"
A man asking for a game recommendation for his 11 year old daughter, who is a fan of KQ, in September 1986 http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.cbm/browse_thread/thread/481f2a10c802a294/733f3c7a98103133?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#733f3c7a98103133
"My daughter's 12th birthday is coming up. She has been playing
"King's Quest II" on a friend's Tandy and wants something similar
for our C64. She says the graphics for "King's Quest" are terrific.
My understanding is that "King's Quest" is not available for the C64.
Can anyone recommend an alternative "adventure" game with good
graphics?"
The VERY FIRST mention of King's Quest on the internet happened on January 15th, 1985; A James. W Hoffman was asking for help:
"My children (age 8-9) managed to map out all of King's Quest but
have no idea where to begin. Any hints for them or clues
for getting around some of the bad guys or how
to get the treasures?"
http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/browse_thread/thread/c8bb67f99917bddf/5db4b79a56b61cfa?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#5db4b79a56b61cfa
Followed by another post on February 25th, 1985 also asking for help, by an R. Curtis Jackson:
http://groups.google.com/group/net.games.video/browse_thread/thread/b588d4bd4fba9c53/b26b7877190ebaf2?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#b26b7877190ebaf2
"I have a friend who needs desperately to know how to move the
boulder in the cave -- he's figured everything else and it is
driving him and about four of his buddies crazy. He has stooped
to asking for a complete spoiler, so I told him I would see what
the Usenet could do."
Two posts in November 1985, the first by a Michael Lopez, the second by a David Somner: http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/browse_thread/thread/695dfb14410ca505/4ae7865d2cb810f0?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#4ae7865d2cb810f0
" Does anyone know how to :
1) move the huge boulder in the cave
2) find the mirror
3) find a cutting tool to cut the bucket off the rope in the well
4) find the shield
5) use the cheese for some purpose
6) use the note from the witches house
7) how to avoid the dwarf
8) to guess the gnomes name? What is it?
9) to make the giant fall asleep faster "
"Hmmm... I tried to get this game about 2 years ago, but was told by several
people that this game wasn't being made any more... Could someone tell
me where it might be possible for me to get a copy? Even better yet, could
someone post a listing of games for the IBM-PC saying where to order them
from, and the price? I think that a lot of people could benefit from this.
-Dave S."
It's now January 1986 and Michael Lopez still hasn't finished KQ1, he writes another post asking for help: http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/browse_thread/thread/8e52e917c7bfa81e/d93df94ae3a098ee?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#d93df94ae3a098ee
"I've finally got all of the items - the mirror, the shield, and
the chest - but, when I go to the king, I'm not sure what I'm supposed
to do. If I try to talk to him, he says to come closer, but I cannot
get any closer to him. Any suggestions would be apprieciated
Thanx
Mike"
More people asking for help, February 1986: http://groups.google.com/group/net.games/browse_thread/thread/ef092e82679db59e/34062bd79222506?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#034062bd79222506
"After you have all three treasures, how do you get
the king to stop asking you to come closer?
Is there any way to find out the gnome's name?
How does the magic ring work?
What are the gold egg and gold walnut for?
-thanx, Steve Miller ihnp4!bambi!steve"
A man asking for a game recommendation for his 11 year old daughter, who is a fan of KQ, in September 1986 http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.cbm/browse_thread/thread/481f2a10c802a294/733f3c7a98103133?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#733f3c7a98103133
"My daughter's 12th birthday is coming up. She has been playing
"King's Quest II" on a friend's Tandy and wants something similar
for our C64. She says the graphics for "King's Quest" are terrific.
My understanding is that "King's Quest" is not available for the C64.
Can anyone recommend an alternative "adventure" game with good
graphics?"
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
"While this might be a bit frivolous in this world of heavy duty computing, I
have some questions about King's Quest II.
WARNING: don't read any further if you're playing
the game and don't want any hints.
1) At the end of the game, when you see all the characters you've met sitting
in the church, their happens to be a dragon there. Did he show up any
place else in the program (or in KQ I), or is he just there for show?
2) Early on in the game I encountered a "Batmobil" in the screen outside the
witch's cave. After I got the first door opened, it didn't show up again.
Has anyone been able to figure out what it's for--is it just for show, can
you get into it, etc.????
Thanks,
Scott Udell"
On September 8th 1987, a man asks for game recommendations for his 4 and 8 year old children, who just so happen to like King's Quest: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc/browse_thread/thread/30d6ef3f5e4d1969/a87ac5cc74ec0eec?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#a87ac5cc74ec0eec
"My kids are 4 and 8, both read somewhat above the average for their age, and
they're clamoring for games to play on their parents' PC. (AT with EGA
display.) I've discovered that most of the games available on BBS's are
either inane, poorly designed, violent, or simply boring to my kids.
Games they have liked include WPK (public domain), Facemaker (mildly
interesting), King's Quest (!!!), and Gertrude's Secrets. Flight Simulator
was a turnoff (too complex and frustrating). Adventures in Math is a big hit.
I'm interested in both educational and purely recreational software, that is
truly suitable for kids. Please post, rather than mail your suggestions, so
that others on the net can see them. (Also, my system's mailer is flaky.)
If you can comment, please note if the game is dependent on the system
clock speed, or absolutely must have a CGA. (I have a neat p/d routine,
SETVID, that throws the EGA into CGA mode. Works sometimes.) Also, please
note if the game is self-booting, or runs under DOS, or even (like King's
Quest) has a hard disk install routine."
Another guy writing on December 16th 1987 recommends KQ, in response to another guy asking for kid's software recommendations:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.atari.st/browse_thread/thread/1c76eaaca3444b86/dfe470355828e631?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest#dfe470355828e631
"Well, I can't recommend anything, but if anyone finds something, I'd be
interested in hearing about it. I have two 5 year olds, and the only thing
they consistently enjoy is NeoChrome. I acquired some public domain games
(Mr. Potato Head, Old MacDonald's "Concentration", a couple "music for
children" games), but they're not very interactive ("click on a square to
select an action"), and the kids had absolutely zero interest in them, so
I would recommend games where the mouse or joystick moves something besides
just a cursor on the screen. I haven't looked in stores lately, but when
I did, I was not impressed. Now that Toys R Us has stopped carrying the ST,
I don't hold out much hope for seeing any decent children's stuff.
It should be a lot easier to find something for a child who can read(something
similar to King's Quest?) Also, everything I've seen runs in low-resolution,
so you'd better have a color monitor.
I think it depends a lot on the child: A five-year old friend came over,
and we finally had to drag him off the machine, because he's a video game
addict (he plays space war games as well as I do!)"
Thank you for sharing this .. it was interesting.
on KQ8, December 3rd 1996: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure/browse_thread/thread/dbe010686e9a14fd/e3dadd7ed0eede6a?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest+8+ken#e3dadd7ed0eede6a
"KQ8 will be 3d ... the design goal was to be 1/2 Super Mario 64 and 1/2
Kings Quest. The characters are 99% new, although the setting is still
Daventry. There is a bunch about the game in InterAction, and also, if
you can, try to see the video that is on the Roberta Williams Anthology
CD. It shows some of KQ8, but most interesting is hearing Roberta talk
about the game. I'm hoping I can think of a way to get the video into
wide distribution -- for people that already own most of Roberta's games
it isn't worth buying the anthology just to see the video -- but, it is
definitely worth seeing.
Thanks - Ken"
A fan asked:
">On Tue, 03 Dec 1996 20:14:31 -0800, Ken Williams <k...@seanet.com>
>said something kinda like:
>>KQ8 will be 3d ... the design goal was to be 1/2 Super Mario 64 and 1/2
>>Kings Quest. The characters are 99% new, although the setting is still
Hmm, just bought Matrox Mystique 4MB PCI. Matrox boasts support from
Sierra on QFG5 (matrox.com). Will Sierra support Mystique on KQ8?
Sven "
Ken replied on December 5th 1996:
"I really don't know the Matrox that well -- we are supporting Direct3D,
so if it runs with Direct3D, as its web page says, then it should run
great.
-Ken"
Ken gave his own review of Phantasmagoria II, November 28th, 1996: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure/browse_thread/thread/5a3161857049c792/b5fca4dd9b92d881?hl=en&q=king%27s+quest+8+ken#b5fca4dd9b92d881
"I am Sierra's CEO, so obviously my opinion is biased, but here is my
mini-review of the game:
My wife Roberta wrote the original Phantasmagoria. She was hard at work
on Kings Quest 8, so another designer, Lorelei Shannon, who had worked
with Roberta on prior games, designed Phantasmagoria II. Phantasmagoria
II is a VERY different game from Phantasmagoria.
Here are some ways that it is different from the original...
It is much more controversial. Roberta and I are tough to shock -- but,
Phantas II did so in several places. You will definitely remember
playing this game for a while. The story is much deeper than the
original, more complicated, and many will find it much more involving.
The game is roughly the same length as the original, which Internet
hackers may slam us for. Those in search of a tough game should buy
Lighthouse instead -- Phantas II is not a 'puzzle game,' it is an
experience to be enjoyed.
Here's the perfect way to play Phantas II: Dim the lights, crank up the
sound, don't let anyone interrupt you, and then play the game over five
successive nights, along with your 'significant other'. The game is
broken into five chapters, so it is perfect for this. Skilled adventure
gamers will be able to complete any chapter in 2 to 3 hours. Total play
time with getting a few hints should be in the 10-20 hour range. Roberta
and I had people to call for hints, so actual playing time might be
longer for others. Don't rush through this game! Pace yourself, and
enjoy. Try not to read too much about the game on the Internet. The plot
has plenty of surprises and you will damage some of the fun for
yourself.
Roberta and I really enjoyed Phantas II. Unfortunately, it is Sierra's
last movie game for many years to come. Even though Phantas was such a
hit -- and advance orders on Phantas II indicate it also will be, live
action is not cheap to shoot. This industry really isn't big enough yet
to support the big live action projects like Phantasmagoria. We were
definitely depressed to finish the game, realizing there wasn't a sequel
in development, nor anything else like it in the industry.
The bottom line: I highly recommend the game to those looking for a few
evenings of fun that they'll remember forever, especially those who
liked Gabriel Knight or Phantasmagoria. You may not like the game if you
are looking for a "tough challenge with Myst-style puzzles" or are
easily offended.
Thanks - Ken Williams, Sierra
PS It is in stores now"
A fan replied:
Ken Williams wrote:
> Roberta and I really enjoyed Phantas II. Unfortunately, it is Sierra's
> last movie game for many years to come. Even though Phantas was such a
> hit -- and advance orders on Phantas II indicate it also will be, live
> action is not cheap to shoot. This industry really isn't big enough yet
> to support the big live action projects like Phantasmagoria. We were
> definitely depressed to finish the game, realizing there wasn't a sequel
> in development, nor anything else like it in the industry.
This is true and yet not true. Most companies do not have the financial
backing to undertake such a project, definitely. But others do and have,
and with a great deal of success. Origin's Wing Commander games feature
a story driven by live action video (and actual film with real sets, in
the case of WC4), and they have been wildly successful. As far as I have
heard, Origin plans to continue making big-budget interactive movies. So
I would not say that there is nothing else out there like it, per se."
So Ken replied back, to that:
"Wing Commander 4 sold well, but was not a profitable project for EA.
After the project, Chris Roberts, the designer of WC4, called to say he
was 'looking for something new to do.' We passed -- this industry simply
can't afford those kinds of productions at this point in the ballgame.
When computers are as pervasive as televisions, you will see similar, or
higher budgets, than the film industry has, on computer game projects.
For now, when you do see it -- you can have a fairly good suspicion that
someone lost some money.
With respect to production values: You are right that Gabriel Knight had
much higher quality video and sound than Phantasmagoria. We learned
quite a bit from the first project. Phantasmagoria II is better yet than
Gabriel Knight in this area. The special effects in Phantas II are as
good, or better, with a few exceptions, than you will see in major
motion pictures -- and the writing is far better.
Thanks - Ken"
He also wrote in response to other comments:
"We are working on a DOS/Win3.1 version. It should be out within a few
weeks.
-Ken "
"I agree with most of your comments -- we are in a "back to our roots"
frame of mind. I am strongly considering going back to midi -- it
doesn't sound as good on most systems, but there are all kinds of
technical problems running digitized sound -- streaming the audio can
hurt the interactivity of the game. Also, as I already mentioned, we
have no FMV games currently slated for development. There is something
magic about them when they are done right; Phantas II when it is great,
is really great -- there is no similar feeling playing an animated game
-- but overall, because of the budget problems, and because of the
problems in providing long playtimes, we're out of the FMV market for a
while. I felt pretty good about this until I played Phantas II last week
-- it really caught my attention -- it'll be interesting to see what
everyone else thinks...
-Ken "
In response to a thread titled: "SIERRA SUCKS"--December 1st 1996:
"I disagree.
-Ken"
A woman named Kate Ashley replied:
"Oh yes Sierra does. They have sold out to the money and no longer care
about their loyal customers. Kate Ashley"
The discussion titled was changed to "Sierra DOESN'T Suck", with fans defending Sierra.
Ken jumped in:
"Kate:
How could you possibly believe this? Why would any company do such a
thing? What can I do to convince you this isn't true?
-Ken"
and also:
"All:
When someone says "Sierra Sucks", I'm not sure how to respond. Obviously
they've bought some game that they didn't like. It is impossible to
please 100% of the people 100% of the time. We will ship over 8 million
games this year. We offer a 100% satisfaction or your money back
warranty on every single game, and book almost no refunds each year. I'm
not aware of any competitor who has as liberal of a policy, and highly
suspect that most couldn't afford it. Contrary to what some say, we do
build great products. I am extremely proud to work for Sierra, and there
is no company in this world I'd rather work for. I have trouble
believing that we would consistently be #1 were we shipping bad product.
That doesn't mean we can't improve. I am this companies biggest critic.
People here complain that I am quick with negative comments but never
get around to patting them on the back. This is a fair critique. I am a
perfectionist. If something says Sierra on the front, it drives me crazy
if it isn't totally perfect. No matter how good we do, I am always
convinced there is a way to do better. I do read the comments on us that
appear on the boards, and they show up in email to our managers almost
every day. I am compulsive about trying to improve things. If any
company ever ships a perfect product, I want it to be Sierra.
Lastly, people should keep in mind that Sierra is not a company as much
as it is a collection of highly impassioned people. Because we are #1,
we have been able to attract many of the industry's best developers.
Each game that we release represents 1 to 2 years of a 5 to 20 person
team's life. Whole careers are made or broken by working on a game that
sells well. I cannot over stress how hard our people work on these
games, and how much of them goes in. We are not a machine into which
money flows and games magically pop out. Thats not how the system works.
Our people care about their products, and put their souls into them.
Occasionally a game is produced that doesn't find its market, but
overall, I'd match our record against any other companies.
Sorry to sound defensive ... as I said at the beginning, it's a hard
message to respond to.
Thanks - Ken"
Some more fan debates and arguments back and forth about Sierra.
Ken said:
"My original "I disagree" was meant in jest --- I apologize if it came
across incorrectly.
-Ken"
and
"We've been putting manuals back in products. I had made the decision to
take them out, because I would rather spend money on code, than killing
trees. It didn't occur to me that this would be perceived negatively.
The whole strategy changed after a few days of reading customer mail.
Manuals are back.
-Ken"
And finally he responded to other comments:
"Kate:
I appreciate the time you took to write this. Comments like these I can
cope with and react to. Sierra's customers represent 100% of our revenue
(not to mention job security). If I know where we can improve, I know
how to do a better job.
My answers are embedded below in your comments.
Thanks - Ken
Kate Ashley wrote:
> Ken,
> I recall ordering games from Coarsegold when the staff were in a trailer and didn't even
> have computers. The women were friendly and actually recalled you if you ordered often
> enough. I wrote to Susan Walls, I've forgotten what about, and she very nicely sent me
> a coupon for a free game. The staff were far more responsive and made you feel valued.
In those days we had a hand full of people in customer support. We now
have well over a hundred. It is tough for our service representatives to
be on a first name basis with all our customers. That said, we just
invested heavily in a system so that when you call support your entire
history with us pops up on screen. That way if you have to call multiple
times we at least have the full history and have the best possible
chance to make sure that all is resolved happily. It's not as good as
always going to the same service rep, but it's the closest we've been
able to get.
> I have called Washington, have used your BBS (now defunct? Shame because I liked it)
> and have written, faxed and emailed you and Roberta re the disastrous decision to put
> KQ7 out for Windows only. I never ever got a reply, not even a postcard acknowledging
> receipt. It was obviously important to me as I tried various methods to find out why
> this decision was made. When I asked a Sierra rep in Washington why this game was not
> in DOS, the reply involved "there are plenty of other game companies out there play
> their games." I believe I mentioned this in the letter. This really gives me the
> feeling Sierra still cares.
I am amazingly great at answering my email. My guess is that I answer
50+ emails a day from customers. I'm bad at answering snail mail. My
guess is that I get 20+ a day and answer a couple. You've now found how
to find me. The bad news is that I am close to the breaking point. If I
spend just 5 minutes per email -- and do 50 a day -- and the number
grows at 30% per year -- oops...
> I find that Sierra now makes game expecting people to have the latest software/hardware
> especially Microsoft stuff. This really annoys me when you do not have to do this. I
> really like the various Quest series and am angered when I am unnecessarily forced to
> buy software so I may play a game.
I've been on the cutting edge, and on the trailing edge. It seems like
there are lots of companies that know how to make trailing edge software
-- why do it here? Sierra really does target the premium user with
premium product. We have a tremendous backlist of products which runs
great on older machines -- if someone really wants DOS 386 product, I
have plenty of it. The challenge for me comes from looking at what
computers can do today they couldn't do yesterday, and then building a
product around it.
> BTW I wish the actor you chose to play Gabriel Knight didn't remind me of Kato Kalin (or
> what ever OJ's resident in the guest house is called.) I preferred the animated
> version.
Oops ... No more actors who remind people of Kato .. got it .. written
down (sorry, I forgot my sense of humor already got me in trouble)
> If you care to scan your registration files you will see I have many, many Sierra games,
> in fact some I've not even yet registered.
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!
> May you don't see this Ken because you are the owner not the customer. I doubt your
> staff run to tell you the problems and complaints.
I am hyper sensitive to customer issues. I always read the boards --
and, I buy tons of our product at retail. I call our support lines. I do
everything I can to try to put myself in the position of being a Sierra
customer. If customers are not happy we with us, we are gone. Dead.
Deceased. All over. I constantly remind everyone here that we are only
as good as our last product. We take this issue VERY seriously."
Also said in response to other fan comments (same thread):
"<clap> <clap> <clap>! I've been saying that around here, but have been
able to convince people that anyone other than me remembers Laura Bow.
-Ken "
About 50 or so replies back and forth later, Ken changed the name of the thread to "Sierra is AWESOME":
"I just posted this message to get a better name going on the thread.
As long as I'm here posting, I would like to comment on a prior message
regarding Urban Runner...
Urban Runner was a flawed game. It spent several years in development,
and several million dollars into development we decided that we had a
product that was never going to be 'of Sierra quality.' We had already
announced and advertised the product, but were not satisfied with it. I
decided to release the product, but at a budget price. Urban Runner was
released at $19 suggested retail - which I felt was a very good
price/value proposition. The product was flawed, but it wasn't a total
waste of time. $19 for a 4 CD FMV product is not a bad deal.
Some retailers did not get our message about the price decrease and sold
some copies at $70 -- this didn't happen many times, but it did happen.
We refunded a hand full of people $70 even though the retailers only
paid us about $12 for the product -- and did so with a smile. This is
the Sierra way of doing business. I am proud of how we handled Urban
Runner. I'm not delighted that we shipped a non-perfect product, but it
is almost impossible to develop a Sierra quality product, so it doesn't
surprise me that even we have trouble doing it 100% of the time.
Thanks! - Ken Williams, Sierra"
Another poster changed the name of the discussion back to "Sierra sucks"
Ken changed it back to "Sierra is AWESOME", saying:
"I prefer this name for the thread, and believe it much more reflective
of reality.
-Ken"
And speaks about Urban Runner again, in response to suggestions (I didn't read through the whole thread):
"I wish that it were possible to do as you have suggested, unfortunately,
ad schedules are set often a year in advance. Urban Runner was a rarity.
99% of the time it is possible to keep working on a game until the
quality is up to Sierra standards. With Urban Runner, this turned out
not to be the case. We made the decision to cut spending and release it
as a budget title. Sierra's customers are smart -- my guess is that they
figured out quickly when they saw it retailing under $20 that it wasn't
our best work.
-Ken"
Same thread, on a possible SQ7:
"since sierra is working
> on Quest for glory 5, Kings Quest 8, and just realeased Larry 7, Why
> has plans for a Space quest 7 been released yet?
We are thinking about Space Quest 7. I want to do the game, but Scott
Murpy has been out for a while coping with the after effects of a motor
cycle accident. My guess is that we'll have something on the market by
Spring 98.
Thanks - Ken"
In a discussion about PC hardware and whatnot, December 23rd 1996:
"> Ken Williams the leading man of Sierra, is pushing his own 3d-vid card.
> He did the same thing for Audio cards a few years ago.
> Of course None of these audio cards are mainstream anymore (gone the way
> of the dynosaur : extinct).
Everything gets extinct sooner or later. The Screamin'3d will be extinct
someday -- so will the Pentium 200.
> Ken William says that Windows 95 is the *BEST* game platform for the PC.
I don't know that I've said that. Nascar2 is our hottest selling game
right now -- and it is DOS. The problem with DOS is that it can be a
problem both for the publisher and the customer. Here's what I mean:
Under DOS, the application is much closer to the hardware. This is good,
because you can get maximum performance. But the bad thing is that when
your application and the hardware are linked without an operation, you
need to swap your application when the hardware changes.
Here's a clear example: most dos apps which talk directly to 3d cards
will not be compatible with future 3d cards, whereas those written for
direct3d (win95) will be. Assuming you want to keep your existing
hardware forever, you would be better off in dos, but to the extent
future compatibility is important you may want to trade some frame rate.
DOS is also not very "mass market". A greater percentage of the
population will someday be able to learn to use Win95. There is an
argument that better games can exist for a more widely used platform.
For instance, compare game availability between Mac and Windows.
Lastly... Microsoft's strategic direction is directx. Some of why
windows hasn't performed well in the past is because Microsoft hasn't
been focused on this. The consumer market now has their full attention.
There have been three releases of directx in the past year -- each
faster than its predecessor.
The gap between DOS and Windows is closing rapidly.
> I have had the chance to look at some of
And aside from that... the more I read about Ken Williams the less I like him. KQ8 was "1/2 Super Mario 64" in the same way that my bowel movement this morning was "1/2 chipotle burrito".
Let me fix that for you Ken:
"the design goal was to be 1/2 Superman 64 and 1/2 Kings Quest."
Much more accurate.
Another random snippet:
"The game is roughly the same length as the original, which Internet hackers may slam us for."
Yes... because all your critics are hackers... hah.
Just because it was disappointing to you as a KQ game, doesn't mean that it's a bad game in general, on it's own merits. To class it with Superman 64, regarded by most as one of the absolute worst games of all time, is hyperbolic. It may not be "KQ" to you, but that doesn't mean if you just view it as a game just set in the WORLD of KQ, that it's a bad game. And every KQ game had a different idea going into it: KQ6 was KQ + a darker, more verbose plot, less interest in fairy tales and more mythology; KQ7 was KQ meets Disney, etc.
Also, there were a lot of people who were trolling Sierra at the time, if you read through the boards, so him saying something about internet hackers was a justified response given the context. There is a LOT of Sierra related content on the usernet archives from 1990-1998, a ton of stuff that would take months to compile here--so yes a lot of people were talking a lot about Sierra.
I don't see what's to dislike about Ken. He made a bad business decision in selling Sierra, but that was 16 years ago. He made many many more good decisions than bad ones and if it wasn't for him, Sierra wouldn't have existed in the first place...
Super Mario 64 was one of the first 3d platformers to have a decent camera system and solid controls. Yes, Superman 64 is an exaggeration, but my entire point is that as far as a 3d action game goes, it falls very short of SM64.
And just because people were giving Ken hell on the newsgroups doesn't make hem "hackers". His comment, as quoted above, seems to suggest that anyone who "slams" their game is a "hacker".
Any CEO who gets online and opens discussion with their fan base is exposing themselves to a lot of criticism. So while it was brave of him to be so forward, it was also rather ignorant as he was never going to win any arguments online. Changing the name of a thread from Sierra Sucks to Sierra is Awesome is just ASKING for people to mess with you.
Look, don't get me wrong. I adored Sierra games, and I still own original copies of nearly all of them including some incredibly rare ones. But that doesn't change the fact that the quality of the games had begun to decrease towards the end (before the sell), and some bad decisions were made.
Ken just comes across as a guy who was wowed by new technology a little too easy. he jumped on the FMV bandwagon instantly, and then the 3d platformer/action game bandwagon right after. Using a flagship series like KQ may not have been the best way to test the waters, ya know?
I think comparing MoE to Super64 isn't very far off at all. I really hate MoE. It's clunky, awkward and just kind of "meh". It had some interesting story concepts, but the execution was poor. It's like wanting spaghetti and meatballs at an Italian Restaurant, and getting served diced bread covered in ketchup.
Bt
That's not to say, he may not have gotten the full version when it was released in 1996 as well... But more of a big deal was made over the fact he had a prototype long before any Americans had a chance to see the game...
But saying that Super Mario 64 (Tomb Raider and Quake are brought up as well), was showing the future of what 3D could do at that time... As everything on PC up to that time, were much more primitive, 2D sprites in a 3D environment type constructs...
BTW, came across an interesting article from late 1990's concerning the dieing adventure game genre with quotes from Jane Jensen, Roberta, and even nods towards the changes in KQ8...
You do have a point...
Roberta once said that each KQ game sold about double each previous one... This was apparently true of KQ8 as well...
I think, IIRC, KQ8 sold about 900,000 copies initially (when best selling games in general were selling over a 1.5 million copies or so)... It selling at least double to Grim Fandango (which was calculated to have sold between 100,000 and 500,000 units worldwide)
KQ7 was around 500,000 copies...
KQ6, was around 350,000 IIRC...
Etc...
Sierra also had a tendancy to conflate the numbers, that is add up all the sales (even those beyond initial sales) of each game in the series to come up with a single number. Thus making what they called a 'million selling series number'....
Thus King's Quest was considered something like a '2.5 million best selling series' at one point, IIRC. This was advertised on the box. Might have been around KQ7's release.
I think this was just to make it sound more impressive than it was, and possibly bring in new players from other genres... who only bought 'best-selling' (million or more sold) games.
That's the thing. The adventure genre never truly 'died'--It just didn't have a big enough fan base to begin with when compared to the much more accessible action and RPG games. It wasn't a case of a genre dying because the fan base abandoning it, it was more that other genres far eclipsed it in sales and so the studios abandoned the genre. I think adventure games still sell around 300,000-500,000 copies...Meaning that the fanbase is still there. It hasn't lessened or expanded. It's just a nice fanbase in the larger pool of video games.
The multimedia era of mid-1990's started changing those opinions though.
I'm talking about the late 1990s--when your article dates from--when the adventure genre is said to have 'died'. I just feel it never died in the sense that people lost interest in the adventure genre, just that the audience for other genres was larger.
In the '80s and early '90s, up to around 1993 or so, the adventure game genre seems to have been the dominant genre--The most technologically advanced, the most popular...
I don't understand though how by say, the late 1980s, early 90s, gaming could've been seen as only a fad...By that point, video and computer games (in all genres and forms) were overall a multi-million dollar industry, and video gaming had been going strong since Pong came out in '72.
Half my reason for developing an adventure game (besides the fact that I love them) is that it is Blue Ocean territory. It's a market not super saturated and without the cutthroat stakes of other genres.
Some of the Sierra magazine/interaction articles actually have some pretty good explanation on this... There is an article on why Sierra brought in Bill Davis as Creative Director to try to bring a bit of Hollywood development style and directing into game development, in a try to make something that could compete with and surpass the movie industry...
Keep in mind your claim of "going strong' is an overstatement... You missed the whole video game crash of 1983, which made many in the entertainment industry second guess gaming, and think it was a passing fad and risky endeavor...
Also the gaming with its 'million+ sellers' didn't really come along until late 1990's early 2000's as far as I know (late 1997-2001ish)... That was largely in part do to sells of console 3D gaming... Tomb Raider, Mario 64, etc...
1996's Quake might have been on that list... I do know they claim that the entire quake series as a whole sold around 4.5 million units (conflating the numbers)... But its possible the first game in the series sold under a million...
That's when people start seeing video games as a popular powerhouse...
Adventure gaming was a growing industry, and then it hit a plateau.... It might have shrunk a little as some powerhouse games sold less (or few at all) than similar games in previous years (what you might call a 'sleepers'), but it never kept its momentum, that other genres were picking up.
For example Grim Fandango only sold about 94,000 units in the US, which was pretty low even by adventure game sales standards of previous years for Lucasarts... Which on average they sold at least 200-250,000 units in the US, IIRC.
That was certainly a 'failure' (and was actually representive of adventure game sells of that era, since it was the best selling 'adventure' after KQ8 that year)...
300,000 in the US for Gabriel Knight (if numbers were not being conflated for the first two) or KQ6 was excellent for a single game... for early to mid 1990's. It probably represents the hight in popularity of the adventure gaming industry...
KQ8 had a little under 900,000 IIRC (that's probably because it was drawing in action-gaming or RPG crowd)... I don't know if that includes just domestic sales or world wide sales as well... One review pointed out that Siera may have actually may have shot itself in the foot that Christmas as they released three triple-A games, KQ8, QFG5 and Return to Krondor, as the reviewer (I think it was in CGW) noted all three games had similar boxes, similar mechanics, and similar styles... While all three games were good, having three similar games, made the decision to decide which one to buy all that more difficult, and not wanting to put the time into playing three games that were nearly the same (at least on the surface) during that season made him nearly decide not to get any of them (with the choice to wait for a bargain price to come around)...
Also I know a good number of people who played adventure games, simply moved onto other genres as those games improved in quality.... That's probably a good sign as to why games like Grim Fandango simply didn't sell as many copies, as might have been if it had come out a couple of years before... because many of the Adventure game players jumped ship...
I really do. Nothing gold can stay, but I do have fond memories of the company in it's earlier days.
Bt
Nearly all of which ended up in used game bins and such. The used game market is super saturated with that game. I see a lot of KQ7 as well.
The earlier games that didn't sell as well are more than making up for it with their used game going rates. Too bad Sierra will never see a dime of that market, otherwise they would know that interest is alive and well in these games.
Part of that has to do with the pc game market and most games have some form of copy protection...
Maybe he meant 'yard sales' or something akin to 'ebay', i.e. personal online shops/auctions (where gamers put up there own games for sale on the internets)? If you take the latter into consideration actually you can find pretty much all the KQ games and Sierra games on the 'used market'...
We won't even try to count how many classic boxes of any Sierra game in general that ultimately ended up in landfills... Very few people are rabid and fanatical collectors... and not everyone stays a 'collector'... Not with economy changing, people needing to downsize, or move around.... Foreclosures, even...
As for anecodotal stories, my local Software Etc (now GameStop) never really liked to carry pc games, any pc games they brought in generally ended up on the bargain bins a month or two later, since few people would buy them... They generally would only get a copy if you 'preordered' it...
Sierra adventure games were ironically the ones I found usually in the bargain section the same year of their release... They were also the rarest of the pc games carried in my local store... The usual suspects were action games, rpgs, shooters, racing games, simulators, that sort of thing... With really only a single rack to put them on... This was back in the early to mid 1990s... After awhile they just stopped carrying pc games altogether, in the late 1990s, unless you 'preordered'.
Console games were always more profitable... Both on initial and the resale (since they were the only games they would 'buyback')...
You can't get on him for trying to innovate. Experimentation is something the genre sorely needs in the present day. KQ was the series they always pushed the envelope on anyway.
What do you mean by "insider articles"? Where are you getting all your sales information from? I am really interested in looking at historical adventure game sales numbers.
Sales information is from various places magazine articles, Wikipedia has links to sales on some games. Quotes by Roberta etc in interviews on Internet and elsewhere. The KQ7 box..., etc. Some of the figures are very rough guesstimates based on known although unspecific claims in various sources, in relation to more specific data in other places. As I mentioned it's often difficult to track the truly accurate and exact sales figures for Sierra games, especially the King's Quest because Sierra was more concerned with conflating the sales of the entire series as a whole than just each Individual game. It's also difficult, because some give figures based on initial release nationally and others give totals of both national and international sales. As for Sierra they may have also counted 'rereleases' of products as well into total sales figures to inflate the values, although this is unclear.
Take for example as mentioned the total sells of KQ1-KQ6 (perhaps including the limited sales from the remake, and maybe the various game ports as well, maybe even the sales of the 15th Anniversary collecton, and maybe even the various rereleases) according KQ7 box was 2.5 million total. Now if you divided that by six games at least, that would be about about 417,000 for each of the first six games. However according to one interview Roberta claimed that each game in the series (not counting the total failure of the 'KQ1 remake') sold about double that of the previous one, up to and including KQ8 (in the Talkspot interviews). So from that we can surmise that each game didn't sell around '417,000', but some had less, and some maybe some had more than that. If KQ6 for example had more than that, it would mean KQ7 would have had to have had even more than KQ6, and KQ8 apparently even more than KQ7... We know from Roberta that KQ8 sold about double of Grim Fandango (which I can find links to specific sales numbers for on Wikipedia, around 600,000 total national + international), but she would seemingly also be counting international sales numbers as well (because national sales numbers for GF were rather low; 94,000).
However, we are also told that Sierra's owners weren't too happy with how many copies KQ8 sold, in relation to success of other games on the market at the time. So that means it more than likely had to have sold under a million at the most (as some of the console and action games were receiving according to known given values for many of those games).
So when I said around 900,000 for KQ8, that is a rather rough conservative guestimate, based on those known factors (likely sold under a million, sold about double the previous KQ game, taking Grim Fandango sales into account, etc)... Although, more than likely KQ6 sold at least 300,000 (as it was likely same as or more successful than the first Gabriel Knight). I think there may be some given specific sales values for KQ5 or KQ6, and other games in the series (including KQ8), in the Interaction magazines (and elsewhere), but I'd have to go back and read through them to know for sure... If so it would allow for perhaps slightly more accurate values. But take the ones I gave as very rough indeed.
Nowadays its not uncommon for brand new blockbusters to sell at least a couple of million or so.
Somebody who worked for the company told me that LSL7 outsold Grim Fandango by at least a 7:1 margin. Interview here where Roberta talks about Phantasmagoria selling a million:
http://betax1.justadventure.com/Interviews/Roberta_Williams/Roberta_Williams_Interview_3.shtm
One thing that really annoys me is that many retrospective articles on adventure games depict this narrative that adventure games were almost dead until Lucasarts revived them with Monkey Island and that LA then became the kings. It's such a falsehood. Any information I've seen, including from game designers at both companies, indicates that Sierra continued to demolish LA in sales right up to the end.
I can't verify the information, but according to a letter on Al Lowe's website, sent in by a fan, he says the Sierra website once published thae sales figures for LSL7.
He says it sold 300,000 nationally and over 2 million globally. So your 7:1 figure must be looking at the total world wide sales in comparison to Grim Fandango. Maybe with addition of lsl7 sales from the "Uncensored" ultimate series collections. Nationally that would make it a 3:1 sales.
Also fascinating when Roberta says that Phantas out performed any other Sierra game by selling a million, she must be referring to national sales, rather than the global sales, in the figure.
It would also seem to support the rough guesstimate that KQ8 must have sold under a million nationally as well. Although she admits not having access to exact sales figures herself at that time.
Here is an article that claims that KQ5 was the first Sierra game to sell over 500,000 copies (in America or globally?)
http://nerdtrek.com/sierra-adventure-games/
Again don't know how accurate the quote is, or the source (but it is mentioned in quite a few places, but no citations)...
It claims it held 'best selling' for the next five years... This would seem to suggest it outsold King's Quest 6 (despite Roberta's claim that each game after it was more successful than the previous one)... Unless she was going by 'global sells' in are claim...?
Half Price Books, a large chain has a very large pc games section. Their downtown location here in Dallas has hundreds of used pc games from original big boxes to jewel cases.
Last time I was down there I got the Zork Anthology in the original box with all the maps for $5.
So yes, I see a crapton of KQ8 on the shelves compared to the rest of the series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Strangely enough though some places like Amazon are selling the game brand new again... Just the shrinkwrapped bargain jewelcase edition though...
So it may just be a matter, that Sierra or Activision printed out millions of copies, in comparision to the print cycle of the earlier games... CD printing became cheap as hell....
So for example Sierra only printed say hypothetically, 400,000 copies originally for KQ5. It sold more, so they had to print more. Maybe another couple hundred thousand more copies printed... That increases the total number... Supply and demand involved... But not near as many 'surplus' copies.
Point of note they do nearly the same things with books, where they only print an initial small amount, and judging how far much its sells, have reprintings...
With the CD age, cds were so cheap, that perhaps sierra printed an excess of a couple of million (at a few cents to a dollar per disk). But only sold up to a million or little less or so. But that means they had millions of excess copies. They didn't lose money, but were hoping to sell even more due through the mass production and surplus.
In anycase one can see through things like Interaction and other magazines at the time, that the market was changing and how they published games changed as well... So all those factors lead to essentially 'apples and oranges' comparison in many ways as far as 'success'. It's clear Roberta was trying to judge on her own older experience on the matter.
Also keep in mind that floppy disk versions became obselete, and broke down over time... So less likely that they will be 'sold back' even if there was a 'used market' to take advantage of. People toss out their games for whatever reason, 'scratched/broken/CD&DVD rot/downsizing', etc. Again why 'landfill archaeologists/anthropologists' tend to point out the amount of 'digital artifacts' found in landfills over the course of the end of the 20th and now into the 21st century!
There are probably more games that end up in the garbage than get resold if anything...
What does at make your absolutely ridiculous statement that no stores sell used pc games anymore, which was obviously fallacious? Once that failed you, you try and pin it all on being anecdotal. Sounds like your getting a bit desperate there, and I'm not sure why.
Just because I see a lot of used copies floating around doesn't invalidate the simple fact that there is a trend. Observations are the first part of identifying patterns, and identifying patterns allows one to posit a thesis.
My thesis is KQ8 and 7 just don't have the staying power of the original 6. Your argument that cd production runs were higher, and that in itself explains it is invalid as KQ5 & KQ6 had cd print runs as well.
Either way, I was just pointing out my observation. I never asked you to etch it into one of your wiki pages as a bloody fact. You need to learn to think in non black and white terms sometimes.
Even then, and yes this is anecdotal, you can go online and find plenty of 'used copies' of KQ6 and KQ5 cds as well... 35-40 copies of KQ5 for example... More copies than they offer used for KQ7 and KQ8 ironically enough... Frankly, that's how I've seen it in the few places I know of that sell used games... Lots and lots of copies of any of the KQ games...
Also it isn't recommended to buy early used copies of KQ7, as they are bugged high heaven, windows 3.1 only, and certainly require alot of patching.
Yes, its anecdotal, but there are alot of people that absolutely hate the KQ5 cd because of the poor voice acting! It may be a coincidental that in some places there are more used copies of the game because of that. There is certainly not proof that is the reason why there are alot of used copies of KQ5...
Personally I'd think the glut of collections of many types might have to do with the large amount (technically not really that large amount when you consider that originally they sold for at least 300,000 copies) of used copies of any of the games. However, there really aren't that many used copies of the collections out there. Which may or may not point to people keeping collections rather than the individual games.
Also, its not exactly 'fallacious' for me to say that I have never seen any traditional 'game stores' that sell pc games where I live, as there aren't any stores that sell used games... Which is likely the same reason MusicallyInspired said nearly teh same thing! In no way did I say, there are 'no examples' of such (just that I've never seen traditional 'game stores' sell used PC games), which you seem to be accusing me of...
Also I specified and said I don't know of any 'game stores' that sell used games... You mentioned 'half-price books' which is of course not a 'used game store' but a used books and other things store...... For that matter I've never seen a Half-Priced Book stores anywhere where I live locally... I do know of their website, if its the same company... Your example may be just a regional thing...
BTW, amusingly, and also anecdotal, the online version of Half-Priced Books, has more copies of KQ6 than they have of KQ8... That is to say, they have 3-4 copies of KQ6, and only a single copy of KQ8! They have 1-2 copies of KQ5.... 2-3 copies of KQ7.
Speaking of the 'used games market' and misconceptions...
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Frontier-Developments-Founder-Used-Games-Killing-Core-Games-40612.html Speaking of a day and age, where even the most popular games end up going to the used game market in large amounts, and going the resell, with a possible glut... Generally speaking because most gamers aren't 'collectors', and are only interested in playing the latest and greatest games, and then getting a little cash back to buy the next latest and greatest new release....
On a related note, its not always the 'total amount' of used games found in a store that sells used products, but the price the used games are going for... The rarer or more popular generally cost more, than the common/mass produced or less popular games...This may all depend on the popularity of the game regionally. It also depends on the quality of the disk (is it scratched or not?), and other factors... So its all rather complicated, and very hard to follow to understand the reasoning why more copies show up in some places, and not others, why the price might be cheaper for one or the other, etc...
Many of those KQ5s for example on Amazon sell for less than 20 cents, and not more than $14 on the high end... Most of the KQ8 sell for over 60 cents, with most not getting higher than $20... KQ6 most sell over 50 cents, with most not getting higher than $20. KQ7 is selling for over $3.50 with most not getting much over $16.
Of course, 'pricing' depends on what local seller thinks they can get for the product, based on what they think the demand is...