'Temporal duplication' in the conventional sense simply refers to a situation where two of the same person or object, originating from different points of time, co-exist (the two Marty's in BTTF2 and Ep 2 of the Game, young Emmett and Doc in 1931 etc.)
However, in this case, when they're talking about 'temporal duplication', they mean the Delorean was LITERALLY duplicated, such that the two cars had an existence independent of each other.
Case in point, if you consider all the Deloreans in Hill Valley on November 12th 1955...each one is dependent on its 'predecessor' for its existence. One couldn't tamper with, say, the Delorean Old Biff brought with him from 2015 without affecting the Delorean Marty and Doc brought from 1985-A, or the one buried in the Delgado Mine.
But the Delorean in the Game had an independent existence of the Delorean in BTTF3. One went to 1885, stayed in a mine for 70 years, went back to 1885 AGAIN, returned to 1985 and was destroyed. The other went to 2025, later (presumably) made a few time jumps, before going to 1931, and then returning to 1986 at the start of the game.
I see what you mean now, and Michael J Fox is Canadian's clone explanation has me wondering. I wonder which DeLorean really was the original, and which was the duplicate. It's completely possible the DeLorean sent into 2025 was actually the original DeLorean, and the one sent into 1885 was the duplicate.
I see what you mean now, and Michael J Fox is Canadian's clone explanation has me wondering. I wonder which DeLorean really was the original, and which was the duplicate. It's completely possible the DeLorean sent into 2025 was actually the original DeLorean, and the one sent into 1885 was the duplicate.
Well the big question is was Doc duplicated?
We know that this doc (which ended up in 1885 with that delorean) eventually went to 2025 to retreive it, so did that delorean end up in mid air in 2025 without a driver? Unless something happened to him I don't think there was a duplicate doc. If there was he wouldnt know he was duplicated so you'd think 2025 doc would go back to 1955 for Marty (since he had the technology to fix the delorean).
Also the time circuits in part II were flashing January 1st 1885 twice on screen (once right before they go back to 1955 and once when doc flies the delorean to the school). Now granted these are the only 2 times we are seeing the time circuits after they leave 2015, no reason they couldnt flash 2025. Or you could argue that the combination of the jiggowat overload, scrambled time circuits, and spinning delorean confused it as to whether it should be going to the future or past (logically it should have to perform an internal calculation for how far it needs to travel and whether its forwards or backwards)
We know that this doc (which ended up in 1885 with that delorean) eventually went to 2025 to retreive it, so did that delorean end up in mid air in 2025 without a driver? Unless something happened to him I don't think there was a duplicate doc. If there was he wouldnt know he was duplicated so you'd think 2025 doc would go back to 1955 for Marty (since he had the technology to fix the delorean).
I was wondering this too, and it would certainly make sense that Doc would be duplicated too. All we know about the DeLorean in 2025 is that Doc found out that Griff found it and Doc stopped him right before he damaged the timestream.
The 1885 DeLorean was damaged, so the 2025 DeLorean would have to be fixed. It's possible Griff took the DeLorean from Doc in 2025 when he was fixing it, and the other Doc saw only Griff with the DeLorean and just assumed just the DeLorean was duplicated, leaving Doc stranded in 2025.
I was also wondering, with the fact that Doc was a whole different person from Double Visions on, what the new timeline would be like. At the very least, it would seem that some events would be different since Doc was completely secure with his inventing to the point where he was openly living in 1986 in that timeline, so that Doc doesn't seem like the kind that would destroy the time machine. Since the events happened differently, I wonder whether the temporal duplication occurred at all in the new timeline since all the variables would have to line up very precisely for that event to happen.
I made a thread about Doc being duplicated. It would make a great twist for season 2. But anyways that has no relation to the Time machine not fading because if Doc didn't invent a time machine then it couldn't have been duplicated.
Anyways I kind of understand the whole objects not completely fading after the jump. But then again who's to say that they didn't just happen to have a copy of the newspaper in the new timeline? Also did the tombstone disappear on the photograph after he saved himself, or did they simply not show it? I can't remember. But there is no reason for him to take a picture of the ground. I also heard on the forums that it was also possible that Marty went after Doc regardless of seeing his tombstone.
If that is true then I can't believe that theory or how the time machine was able to return from 1931 and then Marty would fade out and be replaced by FCB Marty because he couldn't time travel in that timeline.
I was wondering this too, and it would certainly make sense that Doc would be duplicated too. All we know about the DeLorean in 2025 is that Doc found out that Griff found it and Doc stopped him right before he damaged the timestream.
The 1885 DeLorean was damaged, so the 2025 DeLorean would have to be fixed. It's possible Griff took the DeLorean from Doc in 2025 when he was fixing it, and the other Doc saw only Griff with the DeLorean and just assumed just the DeLorean was duplicated, leaving Doc stranded in 2025.
I was also wondering, with the fact that Doc was a whole different person from Double Visions on, what the new timeline would be like. At the very least, it would seem that some events would be different since Doc was completely secure with his inventing to the point where he was openly living in 1986 in that timeline, so that Doc doesn't seem like the kind that would destroy the time machine. Since the events happened differently, I wonder whether the temporal duplication occurred at all in the new timeline since all the variables would have to line up very precisely for that event to happen.
If you're referring to the Doc of the final timeline, who showed up in Ep. 5, then I don't see why the temporal duplication wouldn't have happened. While Doc's life was different (he had a good relationship with his father, and ran his father's foundation), his path was essentially the same as that of the Original Doc's. He came up with the idea of flux capacitor in 1955, met Marty, invented the time machine in 1985, went on all the time travel trips we saw in the movies, INCLUDING the trip to 1955 in which the Delorean was struck by lightning, sending HIM to 1885 and the temporal duplicate Delorean to 2025.
The major difference between his path and the Original Doc's path is that the new Doc never got arrested as the speakeasy arsonist in 1931, and instead returned to 1986 for the Key to the City ceremony...this divergence is presumably what causes the Delorean used in Eps. 1-4 (which belonged to the Original Doc) to erase at the end of Ep. 5, because its timeline had been erased.
I made a thread about Doc being duplicated. It would make a great twist for season 2. But anyways that has no relation to the Time machine not fading because if Doc didn't invent a time machine then it couldn't have been duplicated.
Anyways I kind of understand the whole objects not completely fading after the jump. But then again who's to say that they didn't just happen to have a copy of the newspaper in the new timeline? Also did the tombstone disappear on the photograph after he saved himself, or did they simply not show it? I can't remember. But there is no reason for him to take a picture of the ground. I also heard on the forums that it was also possible that Marty went after Doc regardless of seeing his tombstone.
If that is true then I can't believe that theory or how the time machine was able to return from 1931 and then Marty would fade out and be replaced by FCB Marty because he couldn't time travel in that timeline.
I believe that one possible explanation for the tombstone paradox is that in the final 1955, Marty finds the photograph of the Clock Tower inaugration he took with Doc in 1885, realizes he was meant to go back, and then travels back in time. When he does, that Marty is erased and replaced by the version we follow in the film.
Thing with FCB Marty is that there was no way he could have time traveled, so logically he should still be there in FCB 1986.
I believe that one possible explanation for the tombstone paradox is that in the final 1955, Marty finds the photograph of the Clock Tower inaugration he took with Doc in 1885, realizes he was meant to go back, and then travels back in time. When he does, that Marty is erased and replaced by the version we follow in the film.
Thing with FCB Marty is that there was no way he could have time traveled, so logically he should still be there in FCB 1986.
VERY smart and logical explanation!
And yes. FCB Marty must exist. When talking to Marty's dad in episode 3 I think he says he expected you to be at some math contest or something. Not really sure. But that is still a plot hole/paradox IMO. If Marty never time traveled then it would be the same as if his past self was killed. He would cease to exist and be replaced by his temporal duplicate AKA FCB Marty.
I was wondering this too, and it would certainly make sense that Doc would be duplicated too. All we know about the DeLorean in 2025 is that Doc found out that Griff found it and Doc stopped him right before he damaged the timestream.
The 1885 DeLorean was damaged, so the 2025 DeLorean would have to be fixed. It's possible Griff took the DeLorean from Doc in 2025 when he was fixing it, and the other Doc saw only Griff with the DeLorean and just assumed just the DeLorean was duplicated, leaving Doc stranded in 2025.
I was also wondering, with the fact that Doc was a whole different person from Double Visions on, what the new timeline would be like. At the very least, it would seem that some events would be different since Doc was completely secure with his inventing to the point where he was openly living in 1986 in that timeline, so that Doc doesn't seem like the kind that would destroy the time machine. Since the events happened differently, I wonder whether the temporal duplication occurred at all in the new timeline since all the variables would have to line up very precisely for that event to happen.
It's a slightly different doc but he would have had to go through MOST of the time jumps the old doc did; Jules and Verne still exist so he'd have gone through the same path up to and including getting stuck in 1885. Now one key time jump which changed is that this doc eventually returned to 1985 to live (and has stayed there the last six months) whereas the old doc has been gone for six months.
It certainly is possible for another doc to have been stranded in 2025. Though how would our doc know about the duplication? He did indicate they were considering sending Verne to college in the 2020's so he and Clara have likely been there.
Yeah in the final timeline Doc obviously got struck by lightning.
Also I asked this before but never got a really answer. If a paradox does happen in the BTTF universe what will the end result be? Will the universe actually explode? Have you ever considered paradoxes did happen in BTTF but we never noticed it?
Yeah in the final timeline Doc obviously got struck by lightning.
Also I asked this before but never got a really answer. If a paradox does happen in the BTTF universe what will the end result be? Will the universe actually explode? Have you ever considered paradoxes did happen in BTTF but we never noticed it?
Well, in the strictest sense, BTTF2 and 3 are LOADED with paradoxes. So the answer to your question is-nothing happens. Well, nothing catastrophic anyway.
Take the whole 1985-A/Hell Valley timeline for instance. Its one BIG paradox, on so many levels-
1. By giving himself the Almanac and making himself rich, Biff destroys his younger self's motivation to steal the Almanac and go back in time in the first place (a common problem to all intentional attempts to change the past).
2. Because alternate Biff gets Doc committed, the time machine is never constructed. If the time machine never exists, then its impossible for Biff to go back and give himself the Almanac.
3. By preventing Marty and Doc from becoming friends, by sending Marty to a boarding school, Biff has prevented them from making the trip to 2015, which was how he was meant to steal the Almanac and Delorean (though this point is pretty academic, considering that the time machine itself wasn't invented).
4. In the new timeline, Biff is apparently shot dead by Lorraine in 1996, so he couldn't be alive in 2015 to become 'Old Biff'...
So there are no less than FOUR paradoxes associated with the Hell Valley timeline! And yet, NOTHING happens to the universe...
The solution to these paradoxes, though Bob Gale has never stated them outright, is that when the time traveler alters the timeline so drastically as to prevent his own existence, or the time jump from ever happening, the time traveler will be erased from existence...but the event which caused the divergence will be preserved as a necessary part of the new timeline. So, Old Biff, by giving himself the Almanac, has logically created a major paradox, and he is erased from existence when he returns to 2015, but we still see him in 1955 giving himself the Almanac later in the film. Some people call this the 'echo theory' (the title of this thread in fact!)...I simply call it a case of the time traveler erasing the timeline he came from, and thus erasing himself.
Well, in the strictest sense, BTTF2 and 3 are LOADED with paradoxes. So the answer to your question is-nothing happens. Well, nothing catastrophic anyway.
Take the whole 1985-A/Hell Valley timeline for instance. Its one BIG paradox, on so many levels-
1. By giving himself the Almanac and making himself rich, Biff destroys his younger self's motivation to steal the Almanac and go back in time in the first place (a common problem to all intentional attempts to change the past).
2. Because alternate Biff gets Doc committed, the time machine is never constructed. If the time machine never exists, then its impossible for Biff to go back and give himself the Almanac.
3. By preventing Marty and Doc from becoming friends, by sending Marty to a boarding school, Biff has prevented them from making the trip to 2015, which was how he was meant to steal the Almanac and Delorean (though this point is pretty academic, considering that the time machine itself wasn't invented).
4. In the new timeline, Biff is apparently shot dead by Lorraine in 1996, so he couldn't be alive in 2015 to become 'Old Biff'...
So there are no less than FOUR paradoxes associated with the Hell Valley timeline! And yet, NOTHING happens to the universe...
The solution to these paradoxes, though Bob Gale has never stated them outright, is that when the time traveler alters the timeline so drastically as to prevent his own existence, or the time jump from ever happening, the time traveler will be erased from existence...but the event which caused the divergence will be preserved as a necessary part of the new timeline. So, Old Biff, by giving himself the Almanac, has logically created a major paradox, and he is erased from existence when he returns to 2015, but we still see him in 1955 giving himself the Almanac later in the film. Some people call this the 'echo theory' (the title of this thread in fact!)...I simply call it a case of the time traveler erasing the timeline he came from, and thus erasing himself.
I don't really buy the echo theory. But I do have to admit it's true in BTTF. This pretty much solves every paradox. However I don't think that solves why Marty faded away. If the echo theory does exist then all that means is even though they get erased from existence or stop them from time traveling then their actions still occurred and they still existed for a short period of time. That doesn't mean that they can freely time travel.
I stand by my statement. He should have faded. I accept that a paradox didn't happen because of the echo theory though. I think since the critical junction point was the expo he should of been fine as soon as he jumped to 1986 and then he and the time machine should have faded.
I don't really buy the echo theory. But I do have to admit it's true in BTTF. This pretty much solves every paradox. However I don't think that solves why Marty faded away. If the echo theory does exist then all that means is even though they get erased from existence or stop them from time traveling then their actions still occurred and they still existed for a short period of time. That doesn't mean that they can freely time travel.
I stand by my statement. He should have faded. I accept that a paradox didn't happen because of the echo theory though. I think since the critical junction point was the expo he should of been fine as soon as he jumped to 1986 and then he and the time machine should have faded.
That's why I don't call it the 'echo theory' because I don't believe the time traveler's from erased timelines are mere 'echoes'. They are living, breathing entities with as much free will as any other individual.
Case in point...Old Biff in 1955 wasn't just an 'echo', even if his timeline was erased. After giving the Almanac to his younger self, he was free to do anything he wanted, as long as he didn't return to 2015 (or pretty much any point in time after 1996, the year he was shot). He could have lived out his life in the past, or could have traveled back and settled down in the 19th century...he could have done ANYTHING he wanted before the date when his alternate self was shot dead. He had complete free will.
Now, granted, Old Biff's case is somewhat clear cut, in that his alternate self is supposed to be dead, so he clearly erased his existence. But Marty and Doc's case is far different...because their alternate selves were clearly alive in all the alternate timelines they visit; but simply didn't time travel. Logically, that should invalidate the existence of the time traveling versions...but somehow that doesn't really happen.
I don't really buy the echo theory. But I do have to admit it's true in BTTF. This pretty much solves every paradox. However I don't think that solves why Marty faded away. If the echo theory does exist then all that means is even though they get erased from existence or stop them from time traveling then their actions still occurred and they still existed for a short period of time. That doesn't mean that they can freely time travel.
I stand by my statement. He should have faded. I accept that a paradox didn't happen because of the echo theory though. I think since the critical junction point was the expo he should of been fine as soon as he jumped to 1986 and then he and the time machine should have faded.
Which time are you talking about Marty fadint? In part I he fades because he critical junction point for his conception (the dance kiss) is in jeopardy. In episode 1/2 he starts fading at the same point his grandfather is killed. Both those times he is avoiding his own birth. He is clearly still born in the FCB timeline.
Which time are you talking about Marty fadint? In part I he fades because he critical junction point for his conception (the dance kiss) is in jeopardy. In episode 1/2 he starts fading at the same point his grandfather is killed. Both those times he is avoiding his own birth. He is clearly still born in the FCB timeline.
Marty's fading in Episode 2 didn't really make much sense as per the established rules in BTTF1 either.
Marty apparently starts fading AFTER his grandfather was beaten to death. Later, even when he travels back earlier in the day, to a time BEFORE his grandfather was in any perceivable danger, he continues to have fading 'spasms' which get progressively worse. But that really doesn't make sense.
As per the rules in BTTF1, the moment Arthur McFly died, Marty would simply fade from existence. Period. There is no way Marty can continue to exist in a time period where Arthur McFly is dead, because the probability of his existence if 0.
Also, when Marty goes back to a time BEFORE Arthur McFly was killed, he should be fine. Or at any rate, the fading shouldn't be AS bad, because there is now a probability that Marty could exist.
Which time are you talking about Marty fadint? In part I he fades because he critical junction point for his conception (the dance kiss) is in jeopardy. In episode 1/2 he starts fading at the same point his grandfather is killed. Both those times he is avoiding his own birth. He is clearly still born in the FCB timeline.
Marty doesn't just fade in the movie and episode 1 and 2 because he ceased to exist. It was also because his time travel didn't exist. It should be the same circumstances with Marty as it was for Doc. He couldn't time travel in this timeline so he should be replaced by FCB Marty like Doc was replaced by FCB Doc.
Marty's fading in Episode 2 didn't really make much sense as per the established rules in BTTF1 either.
Marty apparently starts fading AFTER his grandfather was beaten to death. Later, even when he travels back earlier in the day, to a time BEFORE his grandfather was in any perceivable danger, he continues to have fading 'spasms' which get progressively worse. But that really doesn't make sense.
As per the rules in BTTF1, the moment Arthur McFly died, Marty would simply fade from existence. Period. There is no way Marty can continue to exist in a time period where Arthur McFly is dead, because the probability of his existence if 0.
Also, when Marty goes back to a time BEFORE Arthur McFly was killed, he should be fine. Or at any rate, the fading shouldn't be AS bad, because there is now a probability that Marty could exist.
Maybe because he already experience the point after his Grandpa died even though he went back a few minutes later?
Marty's fading in Episode 2 didn't really make much sense as per the established rules in BTTF1 either.
Marty apparently starts fading AFTER his grandfather was beaten to death. Later, even when he travels back earlier in the day, to a time BEFORE his grandfather was in any perceivable danger, he continues to have fading 'spasms' which get progressively worse. But that really doesn't make sense.
As per the rules in BTTF1, the moment Arthur McFly died, Marty would simply fade from existence. Period. There is no way Marty can continue to exist in a time period where Arthur McFly is dead, because the probability of his existence if 0.
Also, when Marty goes back to a time BEFORE Arthur McFly was killed, he should be fine. Or at any rate, the fading shouldn't be AS bad, because there is now a probability that Marty could exist.
i'm kind of unclear on the timeline for those few days; Marty arrives June 13th 1931, June 14th is the day the murders happen so I'm assuming the newspaper he reads was printed june 15th? (I know Marty says in episode 1 he's going to the day before doc gets killed)
Arthur gives his deposition around 4 pm, in episode 2 Marty goes back to 4:45. The question is at what point is Artie killed? Also what time is the ending of ep1/begginning of 2? Seems artie got beat to death (doesn't make sense to me how he'd be found, Kid has an underground speakeasy, you'd think he'd dispose of the body?) Kid is obviously driving the police truck doc is in, had he killed Artie yet?
Marty's fading in Episode 2 didn't really make much sense as per the established rules in BTTF1 either.
Marty apparently starts fading AFTER his grandfather was beaten to death. Later, even when he travels back earlier in the day, to a time BEFORE his grandfather was in any perceivable danger, he continues to have fading 'spasms' which get progressively worse. But that really doesn't make sense.
As per the rules in BTTF1, the moment Arthur McFly died, Marty would simply fade from existence. Period. There is no way Marty can continue to exist in a time period where Arthur McFly is dead, because the probability of his existence if 0.
Also, when Marty goes back to a time BEFORE Arthur McFly was killed, he should be fine. Or at any rate, the fading shouldn't be AS bad, because there is now a probability that Marty could exist.
Artie was beaten to death, so he didn't die instantly (the paper said he was "left for dead" which is a term that means that he wasn't dead when he was dumped there). He was alive at the start of episode 2 but bleeding to death from his injuries (Doc said that he was dumped on the courthouse steps only five minutes before the start of episode 2), so Marty's fading would certainly still make sense within the rules of the Back to the Future universe.
As for Marty's rate of fading out, you have to remember the ripple theory. The moment time was changed the ripple started catching up with Marty. Going back in time wouldn't stop the ripple, but it would slow it down (as going into the future past the point of erasure speeds it up). If you'll notice he wasn't fading as bad when he went back in time. At the beginning of episode 2, he was fading out. When he went back to the events of episode 1 he would remain solid for periods of time.
As for Marty's rate of fading out, you have to remember the ripple theory. The moment time was changed the ripple started catching up with Marty. Going back in time wouldn't stop the ripple
Artie was beaten to death, so he didn't die instantly (the paper said he was "left for dead" which is a term that means that he wasn't dead when he was dumped there). He was alive at the start of episode 2 but bleeding to death from his injuries (Doc said that he was dumped on the courthouse steps only five minutes before the start of episode 2), so Marty's fading would certainly still make sense within the rules of the Back to the Future universe.
As for Marty's rate of fading out, you have to remember the ripple theory. The moment time was changed the ripple started catching up with Marty. Going back in time wouldn't stop the ripple, but it would slow it down (as going into the future past the point of erasure speeds it up). If you'll notice he wasn't fading as bad when he went back in time. At the beginning of episode 2, he was fading out. When he went back to the events of episode 1 he would remain solid for periods of time.
I agree its been a while since I've gone through the games so I agree that I may have got the details wrong, but somehow I've always considered the 'ripple effect' to be probability-based rather than time-based.
For instance, in BTTF1, every moment George and Lorraine DON'T get together, the probability of the McFly kids being born drops closer and closer to 0, hence they gradually begin to fade from the photograph. When they (nearly) don't kiss and the probability of Marty existing drops VERY close to 0, Marty starts to fade himself. Its not that the ripple effect takes a week to catch up, but rather there was a week between the divergence Marty caused in the timeline and the critical event which determined the fate of George McFly and Lorraine Baines one way or another.
But the Game seems to be showing the ripple effect as being time-based...almost like a disease of sorts which continues to follow Marty wherever and WHENever he goes. And this theory is reflected in Episode 5, when Marty and Doc are in 1931 when it transforms around them into the 'Burnt Hill Valley'. Doc somehow calculates that they have about an hour before the ripple effect catches up with them and erases them. How exactly DO you make a calculation like that? The way I see it, Marty and Doc should either have faded from existence the MOMENT Edna went back, or they should be able to exist indefinetly in the alternate 1931, depending on how the probabilities of their being born (or not) work out as off 1931.
I agree its been a while since I've gone through the games so I agree that I may have got the details wrong, but somehow I've always considered the 'ripple effect' to be probability-based rather than time-based.
If the ripple effect were probability-based rather than time-based, in Back to the Future II Biff would have faded out the instant he arrived in 2015 since the probability of him existing as an old man was zero since he was killed in the 1990's.
If the ripple effect were probability-based rather than time-based, in Back to the Future II Biff would have faded out the instant he arrived in 2015 since the probability of him existing as an old man was zero since he was killed in the 1990's.
Well, that's pretty much what DID happen as per the deleted scene.
Well, that's pretty much what DID happen as per the deleted scene.
It wasn't instantaneous though. He was writhing in pain for quite an amount of time before he faded. If he realized that he died in the 1990's, he would have had enough time to go back in time like Marty did in episode 2 of the game. Like you said in your post about Marty's actions in episode 2, if it was probability based he shouldn't have had any time at all since the probability he could exist would have been zero.
It wasn't instantaneous though. He was writhing in pain for quite an amount of time before he faded. If he realized that he died in the 1990's, he would have had enough time to go back in time like Marty did in episode 2 of the game. Like you said in your post about Marty's actions in episode 2, if it was probability based he shouldn't have had any time at all since the probability he could exist would have been zero.
You may have got me there! The only explanation is that the fading process itself takes time once it begins...people being erased from existence can be considered akin to the space-time continuum 'healing' itself.
That said, i don't for a moment pretend BTTF is at ALL consistent about the speeds of the 'ripple effect'. Its a clear case of movie logic...in BTTF2, when the Almanac in burnt, we see the matchbook change first, then Marty's newspaper, and THEN Doc's newspaper...logically, all of them should have changed at the SAME time. But it's not something one really thinks much about.
My point is, that whether the ripple effect is time-based or probability-based; the portrayal in Episode 2 of the Game does seem to go against what was established on screen in BTTF1. In BTTF1, we see Marty's siblings fading from the photograph gradually and only in the END, at the 'critical junction point' of George and Lorraine's kiss, does Marty HIMSELF start to fade.
Whereas, in the Game, not only does the photograph of George McFly continue to fade (which makes sense), but Marty keeps having these 'fading spasms' which make no sense at all...considering that he didn't have them back in 1955 in BTTF1.
You may have got me there! The only explanation is that the fading process itself takes time once it begins...people being erased from existence can be considered akin to the space-time continuum 'healing' itself.
That said, i don't for a moment pretend BTTF is at ALL consistent about the speeds of the 'ripple effect'. Its a clear case of movie logic...in BTTF2, when the Almanac in burnt, we see the matchbook change first, then Marty's newspaper, and THEN Doc's newspaper...logically, all of them should have changed at the SAME time. But it's not something one really thinks much about.
My point is, that whether the ripple effect is time-based or probability-based; the portrayal in Episode 2 of the Game does seem to go against what was established on screen in BTTF1. In BTTF1, we see Marty's siblings fading from the photograph gradually and only in the END, at the 'critical junction point' of George and Lorraine's kiss, does Marty HIMSELF start to fade.
Whereas, in the Game, not only does the photograph of George McFly continue to fade (which makes sense), but Marty keeps having these 'fading spasms' which make no sense at all...considering that he didn't have them back in 1955 in BTTF1.
Not really, the ripple effect seems to affect things in chronological order. Not sure about the matchbooks (as far as when they get changed) but Marty's newspaper is from 1973, docs is from 1983 so it is logically that marty changes first (ripple effect going forward). Similar to how in part I, the 3 Mcfly kids fade in order of age (again the ripple effect going forward). Likewise in 1931 Georges face starts fading more than Marty's body (georges birth being prevented first). Marty's spasms don't seem any better or worse in episode 2 vs part I; in part I they were bad enough to litterally bring him off his feet whereas in episode 2 he was still standing (both times his hand started to fade first). Biff has pretty much the same spasms in the deleted scene but he does seem to poke himself with the cane.
Not really, the ripple effect seems to affect things in chronological order. Not sure about the matchbooks (as far as when they get changed) but Marty's newspaper is from 1973, docs is from 1983 so it is logically that marty changes first (ripple effect going forward). Similar to how in part I, the 3 Mcfly kids fade in order of age (again the ripple effect going forward). Likewise in 1931 Georges face starts fading more than Marty's body (georges birth being prevented first). Marty's spasms don't seem any better or worse in episode 2 vs part I; in part I they were bad enough to litterally bring him off his feet whereas in episode 2 he was still standing (both times his hand started to fade first). Biff has pretty much the same spasms in the deleted scene but he does seem to poke himself with the cane.
If the ripple effect doesn't involve probabilities, how else would you explain the changing tombstone picture in BTTF3?
That photograph literally keeps changing depending on how events are developing on 1885...Doc himself states how they photograph represent what will happen if events are allowed to progress naturally i.e. the 'most likely' future. I'd say that means probabilities are involved.
You may have got me there! The only explanation is that the fading process itself takes time once it begins...people being erased from existence can be considered akin to the space-time continuum 'healing' itself.
That said, i don't for a moment pretend BTTF is at ALL consistent about the speeds of the 'ripple effect'. Its a clear case of movie logic...in BTTF2, when the Almanac in burnt, we see the matchbook change first, then Marty's newspaper, and THEN Doc's newspaper...logically, all of them should have changed at the SAME time. But it's not something one really thinks much about.
My point is, that whether the ripple effect is time-based or probability-based; the portrayal in Episode 2 of the Game does seem to go against what was established on screen in BTTF1. In BTTF1, we see Marty's siblings fading from the photograph gradually and only in the END, at the 'critical junction point' of George and Lorraine's kiss, does Marty HIMSELF start to fade.
Whereas, in the Game, not only does the photograph of George McFly continue to fade (which makes sense), but Marty keeps having these 'fading spasms' which make no sense at all...considering that he didn't have them back in 1955 in BTTF1.
I think it's both probabilities based and time based. Once you pass the junction point it then becomes time based. Regardless if you jumped back to the past.
Also like Michael J Fox is Canadian said, I'm pretty sure they took longer to change because certain events happened first. Marty's newspaper was before Doc's and assume in the Hell Valley timeline the matchbook was created early (At the start of BTTF2 it's established that he just printed them out).
I think it's both probabilities based and time based. Once you pass the junction point it then becomes time based. Regardless if you jumped back to the past.
But that's an inherently paradoxical statement (no pun intended!) It may well be time based once you pass the 'junction point', but the moment you jumped back to the past, you would be way BEFORE the 'junction point. So suppose Arthur McFly was nearly dead at the end of Episode 1 and that's the 'junction point'. Okay, fair enough, that means Marty starts fading...but then Marty goes back in time a few hours to way BEFORE the 'junction point', so he shouldn't be fading now.
Also like Michael J Fox is Canadian said, I'm pretty sure they took longer to change because certain events happened first. Marty's newspaper was before Doc's and assume in the Hell Valley timeline the matchbook was created early (At the start of BTTF2 it's established that he just printed them out).
But that's an inherently paradoxical statement (no pun intended!) It may well be time based once you pass the 'junction point', but the moment you jumped back to the past, you would be way BEFORE the 'junction point. So suppose Arthur McFly was nearly dead at the end of Episode 1 and that's the 'junction point'. Okay, fair enough, that means Marty starts fading...but then Marty goes back in time a few hours to way BEFORE the 'junction point', so he shouldn't be fading now.
It does make some sense. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that he can still fade if he already experienced a moment after the junction point even if he went back.
If the ripple effect doesn't involve probabilities, how else would you explain the changing tombstone picture in BTTF3?
That photograph literally keeps changing depending on how events are developing on 1885...Doc himself states how they photograph represent what will happen if events are allowed to progress naturally i.e. the 'most likely' future. I'd say that means probabilities are involved.
Oh it is probability based, not doubting that. The junction point for docs death was september 5th 1885 when he got shot, once marty stops it, his name fades but the date does not (had Doc stayed away from the saloon, it probably would have been Marshall Strickland on that tombstomb). Once Marty goes to the saloon, 'Clint eastwood' appears because he's who buford wants dead, and of course once the tombstomb is destroyed it disappeared.
So back to Artie; marty fades out until the wheels are in motion for him to die are averted. While Artie is in the possession of tannens goons, the most likely scenario is still him dying but it's unconfirmed.
It does make some sense. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that he can still fade if he already experienced a moment after the junction point even if he went back.
Okay, look at it this way. If Marty starts to fade because he's past the 'junction point', then that means that his fading is because of the fact that he is existing at a certain point of time. Ergo, if he chooses to travel to another earlier point in time, he should stop fading.
To my mind, it makes FAR more sense for the ripple effect to be probability based. I mean, there has to be a reason why Marty was starting to fade at PRECISELY the moment of George and Lorraine's kiss (which almost didn't happen)...and that he stopped fading and the McFly kids were 'restored' the moment they DID kiss. Or why the newspapers changed the moment the Almanac was burnt. Objects (and people!) from the future, reflect the most probable future based on how events are developing in the past. The ripple effect alters or erases them based on changing probabilities.
Okay, look at it this way. If Marty starts to fade because he's past the 'junction point', then that means that his fading is because of the fact that he is existing at a certain point of time. Ergo, if he chooses to travel to another earlier point in time, he should stop fading.
To my mind, it makes FAR more sense for the ripple effect to be probability based. I mean, there has to be a reason why Marty was starting to fade at PRECISELY the moment of George and Lorraine's kiss (which almost didn't happen)...and that he stopped fading and the McFly kids were 'restored' the moment they DID kiss. Or why the newspapers changed the moment the Almanac was burnt. Objects (and people!) from the future, reflect the most probable future based on how events are developing in the past. The ripple effect alters or erases them based on changing probabilities.
I know what you're saying but you're also repeating your self. By your logic the newspaper should have changed exactly when they went to back to 1955 because that was before the junction point where Biff gave himself the Almanac (although we don't see the newspapers at that point).
Or the picture of the tombstone. It stayed the same when he arrived in 1885 even though it happened before he got shot. Why did it stay the same? Because that picture had already passed the junction point.
Okay, look at it this way. If Marty starts to fade because he's past the 'junction point', then that means that his fading is because of the fact that he is existing at a certain point of time. Ergo, if he chooses to travel to another earlier point in time, he should stop fading.
To my mind, it makes FAR more sense for the ripple effect to be probability based. I mean, there has to be a reason why Marty was starting to fade at PRECISELY the moment of George and Lorraine's kiss (which almost didn't happen)...and that he stopped fading and the McFly kids were 'restored' the moment they DID kiss. Or why the newspapers changed the moment the Almanac was burnt. Objects (and people!) from the future, reflect the most probable future based on how events are developing in the past. The ripple effect alters or erases them based on changing probabilities.
Keep in mind Marty only went back in time a few hours. you could also argue the process of him fading has already started.
I know what you're saying but you're also repeating your self. By your logic the newspaper should have changed exactly when they went to back to 1955 because that was before the junction point where Biff gave himself the Almanac (although we don't see the newspapers at that point).
Or the picture of the tombstone. It stayed the same when he arrived in 1885 even though it happened before he got shot. Why did it stay the same? Because that picture had already passed the junction point.
Whether traveling to the future or the past, pictures/newspapers don't change until they are actually changed. Doc dying and the biffhoric timeline are still reflected until they are actually changed. Or the october 22nd 2015 newspaper; it stays the same until the picture captioning it is taken differently (griff instead of marty jr). So for instance the act of traveling back to 1955 did not change the timeline for doc and marty. The newspapers did not change until the timeline was changed.
I know what you're saying but you're also repeating your self. By your logic the newspaper should have changed exactly when they went to back to 1955 because that was before the junction point where Biff gave himself the Almanac (although we don't see the newspapers at that point).
Or the picture of the tombstone. It stayed the same when he arrived in 1885 even though it happened before he got shot. Why did it stay the same? Because that picture had already passed the junction point.
In terms of probabilities, this would be the answer-
When Marty and Doc arrive in 1955, the 'most likely future' is still one where Old Biff will show up and give himself the Almanac, and Biff will get rich. Marty and Doc have to actively work to change that future, and when they succeed, by burning the Almanac, the probability of Biff getting rich becomes 0, hence the newspapers change instantly.
Newspapers and photographs are simply reflective of the 'most likely future'...or rather they reflect what is most likely to be the status quo at their point of origin. So the picture of the tombstone is actually a snapshot of what that particular location will be like on the night of November 14th 1955. Depending on how events change in 1885, what will be on that spot in November 14th 1955 changes.
Whether traveling to the future or the past, pictures/newspapers don't change until they are actually changed. Doc dying and the biffhoric timeline are still reflected until they are actually changed. Or the october 22nd 2015 newspaper; it stays the same until the picture captioning it is taken differently (griff instead of marty jr). So for instance the act of traveling back to 1955 did not change the timeline for doc and marty. The newspapers did not change until the timeline was changed.
I wasn't saying they should have changed. I was saying they should have changed based on his logic. He says going before the junction point should stop the fading or changing. That means going before the junction point would also affect the newspapers and they would return to normal until the junction point is passed again. It doesn't work like that.
If you're referring to the Doc of the final timeline, who showed up in Ep. 5, then I don't see why the temporal duplication wouldn't have happened. While Doc's life was different (he had a good relationship with his father, and ran his father's foundation), his path was essentially the same as that of the Original Doc's. He came up with the idea of flux capacitor in 1955, met Marty, invented the time machine in 1985, went on all the time travel trips we saw in the movies, INCLUDING the trip to 1955 in which the Delorean was struck by lightning, sending HIM to 1885 and the temporal duplicate Delorean to 2025.
I've been thinking about this. I still think it is entirely possible that the DeLorean was never duplicated in the new timeline, and it's even possible that the DeLorean Doc picks Marty up in in 1931 is actually the original DeLorean.
The only trips that have to happen to make the OUTATIME outcome is the first 1955 trip and the 1885 trip.
The events of 2015 that led to Hell Valley had to do with Marty being greedy and wanting to make himself rich by using time travel for personal gain. But in the new timeline, Doc had a good relationship with his father, so he might be a better father figure to Marty, helping Marty with his own issues with his father, meaning that Marty might not feel like he needs to get away from his family so badly (this is likely since we know family means more to Doc than before since he originally went to 1931 to investigate the arsons and in the new timeline went to investigate Marty's family lineage).
So, because Marty would have an improved relationship with Doc, he might not have even ever have been in the accident with the Rolls Royce (since Doc would teach Marty the importance of family and he wouldn't be overcompensating for the thoughts of him not wanting to be weak like his father).
So the 2015 trip might not have happened. And it wouldn't have had to have occurred, either. Combining the outcome of the 1955 trip (which George McFly became someone Marty was proud to call father), plus Doc's instilling the importance of family to Marty from the beginning (and the fact that the Rolls Royce incident wouldn't occur), Marty would be a better father to his kids, his son would never get mixed up with Griff, and his kids wouldn't go to prison.
There's nothing in 2015 that's important for Marty to do in this timeline (although it is important for Doc to get the rejuvenation treatments, the hover conversion, and to install Mr. Fusion), but he did that all before his trip with Marty anyway.
Without the trip to 2015, the 1985 Hell Valley timeline wouldn't exist, and the second 1955 trip wouldn't have happened. So, the DeLorean wouldn't have been hit by lightning.
So, now Doc just travels to 1885 on his own (or with Marty), which would be likely since Doc stated he always wanted to go to the Old West (and we know that Doc likes to travel in round numbers from his line at the end of the first movie, so traveling 100 years into the past would make perfect sense). But, the events would be very different. We know that Doc must have gotten there before Clara died in the ravine, but we don't know the exact date he got there.
The DeLorean would be fully functional, so Doc wouldn't have been stranded, and he wouldn't have set up shop as a blacksmith. So the feud with Mad Dog Tannen wouldn't have happened. Also, it would be Doc, not Marty driving, so the gas tank would be in tact (or if it wasn't, Doc would at least know to patch it quick before all the fuel leaked out). So, Doc could spend as much time with Clara and leave whenever he wanted.
Doc also didn't need Marty in 1885 in this timeline, since he's not a scared man around women anymore, having experienced first love and loss with Edna. So it's possible that Marty wasn't with him, and if he was, he might have only been there long enough to celebrate at the festival, and left Doc and Clara alone since Doc wasn't in any danger.
Since Doc didn't need to hijack a train to leave 1885, the DeLorean wouldn't have been destroyed by the train in 1985, Doc wouldn't have invented a time train (unless he did it later for fun), and the ravine would still be called Shonash Ravine.
None of these changes would be devastating to the timeline. The first 1955 trip would still improve George McFly's self esteem, Doc's improved relationship with Marty would keep Marty from feeling like he has to overcompensate because he doesn't want to appear weak like his father (so the Rolls Royce accident wouldn't happen and Marty would be a good dad to his kids), Doc and Clara would still get together, and they still would have Jules and Verne.
I've been thinking about this. I still think it is entirely possible that the DeLorean was never duplicated in the new timeline, and it's even possible that the DeLorean Doc picks Marty up in in 1931 is actually the original DeLorean.
The only trips that have to happen to make the OUTATIME outcome is the first 1955 trip and the 1885 trip.
The events of 2015 that led to Hell Valley had to do with Marty being greedy and wanting to make himself rich by using time travel for personal gain. But in the new timeline, Doc had a good relationship with his father, so he might be a better father figure to Marty, helping Marty with his own issues with his father, meaning that Marty might not feel like he needs to get away from his family so badly (this is likely since we know family means more to Doc than before since he originally went to 1931 to investigate the arsons and in the new timeline went to investigate Marty's family lineage).
So, because Marty would have an improved relationship with Doc, he might not have even ever have been in the accident with the Rolls Royce (since Doc would teach Marty the importance of family and he wouldn't be overcompensating for the thoughts of him not wanting to be weak like his father).
So the 2015 trip might not have happened. And it wouldn't have had to have occurred, either. Combining the outcome of the 1955 trip (which George McFly became someone Marty was proud to call father), plus Doc's instilling the importance of family to Marty from the beginning (and the fact that the Rolls Royce incident wouldn't occur), Marty would be a better father to his kids, his son would never get mixed up with Griff, and his kids wouldn't go to prison.
There's nothing in 2015 that's important for Marty to do in this timeline (although it is important for Doc to get the rejuvenation treatments, the hover conversion, and to install Mr. Fusion), but he did that all before his trip with Marty anyway.
Without the trip to 2015, the 1985 Hell Valley timeline wouldn't exist, and the second 1955 trip wouldn't have happened. So, the DeLorean wouldn't have been hit by lightning.
So, now Doc just travels to 1885 on his own (or with Marty), which would be likely since Doc stated he always wanted to go to the Old West (and we know that Doc likes to travel in round numbers from his line at the end of the first movie, so traveling 100 years into the past would make perfect sense). But, the events would be very different. We know that Doc must have gotten there before Clara died in the ravine, but we don't know the exact date he got there.
The DeLorean would be fully functional, so Doc wouldn't have been stranded, and he wouldn't have set up shop as a blacksmith. So the feud with Mad Dog Tannen wouldn't have happened. Also, it would be Doc, not Marty driving, so the gas tank would be in tact (or if it wasn't, Doc would at least know to patch it quick before all the fuel leaked out). So, Doc could spend as much time with Clara and leave whenever he wanted.
Doc also didn't need Marty in 1885 in this timeline, since he's not a scared man around women anymore, having experienced first love and loss with Edna. So it's possible that Marty wasn't with him, and if he was, he might have only been there long enough to celebrate at the festival, and left Doc and Clara alone since Doc wasn't in any danger.
Since Doc didn't need to hijack a train to leave 1885, the DeLorean wouldn't have been destroyed by the train in 1985, Doc wouldn't have invented a time train (unless he did it later for fun), and the ravine would still be called Shonash Ravine.
None of these changes would be devastating to the timeline. The first 1955 trip would still improve George McFly's self esteem, Doc's improved relationship with Marty would keep Marty from feeling like he has to overcompensate because he doesn't want to appear weak like his father (so the Rolls Royce accident wouldn't happen and Marty would be a good dad to his kids), Doc and Clara would still get together, and they still would have Jules and Verne.
I think the game establishes the timeline as being linear for the characters. Even the trilogy itself establishes it;
-we know that 2015 will play out differently. No marty getting fired, no giving up on his music due to the car accident. Yet even after that all gets avoided, doc shows up in the time train with Clara meaning the 1885 trip which was triggered via the 2015 trip still happened
-2015 clearly doesn't happen in the FCB timeline. That is the reason why doc fades. And of course for most of this timeline, Marty and Jennifer do not end up together (his fading pic) which means no Marty Jr. and Marlene.
now one main thing which has been touched on is that the delorean in the game was a temporal duplicate sent to 2025. They didnt establish it's rules other than the fact that it exists.
I think the game establishes the timeline as being linear for the characters. Even the trilogy itself establishes it;
-we know that 2015 will play out differently. No marty getting fired, no giving up on his music due to the car accident. Yet even after that all gets avoided, doc shows up in the time train with Clara meaning the 1885 trip which was triggered via the 2015 trip still happened
I don't think the 2015 trip existing at the end of Back to the Future Part III is necessarily proof of time being linear. Doc's afraid of circular time paradoxes. This is evidenced by Back to the Future Part II where Doc tells Marty to make sure that he stops teenage Biff's gang from ganging up on the other Marty who is on stage in order to make sure Marty's first trip to 1955 is completed in order to prevent a paradox which prevents their second trip from happening. Because of that, I can't see Doc as just assuming that the universe will adapt to the changes that he and Marty made to the timeline.
Doc, knowing the points which have to happen to make the trips occur in circular time, would certainly do his best to make sure that they did happen. At the end of the trilogy, he has a time train, so there's no reason that he can't travel to these points and set things up. The three main points in the trilogy (which set the rest in motion) are: the first trip to 1955 (which we already know still happens in circular time due to the end of Back to the Future), the trip to 2015 (which Doc could set in motion by simply telling Marty to let things play out naturally in regards to his son and Griff, since he knows they'll be corrected by Marty and Doc in circular time), and the trip to 1885 (which would simply be put in motion by Doc bribing the cemetery to put up a fake tombstone in Doc's name with the death date from Back to Future Part III on it).
But, you made a good point about the hoverboard in another thread. I forgot about that bit, so Marty's trip to 2015 would still be necessary in the OUTATIME timeline.
But there's still no reason that the trip has to be the same as the original timeline's trip. Doc clearly has a differing view of time travel in this timeline (judging by the fact that he lives in 1986 part time), so he might just simply bring Marty along for the ride after the events of Back to the Future. Doc then might simply buy the hoverboard for Marty (he's already fine with bringing back future technology for himself, a family oriented Doc might be fine with bringing some technology back for Marty as well).
2015 clearly doesn't happen in the FCB timeline. That is the reason why doc fades. And of course for most of this timeline, Marty and Jennifer do not end up together (his fading pic) which means no Marty Jr. and Marlene.
Yep. And the 1955 trip didn't happen either, since George is wimpy and has stalker tendencies and Lorraine has a drinking problem.
now one main thing which has been touched on is that the delorean in the game was a temporal duplicate sent to 2025. They didnt establish it's rules other than the fact that it exists.
Yep. But that doesn't mean that it's still the temporal duplicate DeLorean by the end of the game. There's a lot of possibilities opened up by the end of OUTATIME.
I don't think the 2015 trip existing at the end of Back to the Future Part III is necessarily proof of time being linear. Doc's afraid of circular time paradoxes. This is evidenced by Back to the Future Part II where Doc tells Marty to make sure that he stops teenage Biff's gang from ganging up on the other Marty who is on stage in order to make sure Marty's first trip to 1955 is completed in order to prevent a paradox which prevents their second trip from happening. Because of that, I can't see Doc as just assuming that the universe will adapt to the changes that he and Marty made to the timeline.
Doc, knowing the points which have to happen to make the trips occur in circular time, would certainly do his best to make sure that they did happen. At the end of the trilogy, he has a time train, so there's no reason that he can't travel to these points and set things up. The three main points in the trilogy (which set the rest in motion) are: the first trip to 1955 (which we already know still happens in circular time due to the end of Back to the Future), the trip to 2015 (which Doc could set in motion by simply telling Marty to let things play out naturally in regards to his son and Griff, since he knows they'll be corrected by Marty and Doc in circular time), and the trip to 1885 (which would simply be put in motion by Doc bribing the cemetery to put up a fake tombstone in Doc's name with the death date from Back to Future Part III on it).
But, you made a good point about the hoverboard in another thread. I forgot about that bit, so Marty's trip to 2015 would still be necessary in the OUTATIME timeline.
But there's still no reason that the trip has to be the same as the original timeline's trip. Doc clearly has a differing view of time travel in this timeline (judging by the fact that he lives in 1986 part time), so he might just simply bring Marty along for the ride after the events of Back to the Future. Doc then might simply buy the hoverboard for Marty (he's already fine with bringing back future technology for himself, a family oriented Doc might be fine with bringing some technology back for Marty as well).
Yep. And the 1955 trip didn't happen either, since George is wimpy and has stalker tendencies and Lorraine has a drinking problem.
Yep. But that doesn't mean that it's still the temporal duplicate DeLorean by the end of the game. There's a lot of possibilities opened up by the end of OUTATIME.
2015 is a concrete point in the timeline. As mentioned the flying circuits and hoverboard remain intact as does the 'you're fired' fax until it is avoided. But moreso when they go back to 1955, we see 2015 biff still there despite that timeline being avoided. And doc does believe a paradox can happen IN 2015.
Yeah 1955 seems to have been avoided in FCB's timeline, the events would have had to played differently, I doubt 1955 Doc would have had the knowledge or been able to help Marty with Edna around. And of course as we do see in 1986 Doc does steal plutonium from libyans (which there's no way he would have been able to do a second time)
What I mean by the timeline being linear is that time travel is part of each travelers timeline. So in marty's case, while in 2015, 1885 is in his future (although not written yet). The events which happen still happen to him as he does retain his memories.
2015 is a concrete point in the timeline. As mentioned the flying circuits and hoverboard remain intact as does the 'you're fired' fax until it is avoided. But moreso when they go back to 1955, we see 2015 biff still there despite that timeline being avoided. And doc does believe a paradox can happen IN 2015.
I personally don't think concrete points (at least not in the Doctor Who sense, where they're meant to always exist in the same way) are part of the Back to the Future rules of time travel. Doc does say that the future hasn't been written yet (which opens up a whole other can of beans, since it obviously already exists). But I think that Doc just means the future can be changed since they didn't live it yet.
The way Back to the Future universe seems to work is that time is written, both in the future and in the past. That explains the flying circuits, hoverboard, and the fax existing in the past. In the latter regards, the ripple effect of future time travel seems to work very similarly to past time travel (except for the speed of the ripple effect, which seems to slow down if you travel before the point that started the ripple (for example Marty in Get Tannen) and speed up if you travel past that point (for example Biff in Back to the Future Part II).
Since the future is like the past, it would stand to reason that the ripple effect would exist there as well, once the time traveller caught up to it and actually started living it (since the effect starts only once the point is reached by the time traveller, since Biff didn't feel the effects until he returned to 2015).
Marty would be living his life in regular time (or close to it, he'd obviously be missing weeks from his regular life due to the travels in the trilogy, and later in the game, as well as unseen travels after the game and possibly the TV show [if you want to count those]). The ripple effect would catch up to him once he reached 2015 (since Marty's kids are the trigger point of the ripple effect), if Doc didn't intervene. Without his son getting in trouble, Doc wouldn't send Marty to 2015 (at the end of Back to the Future), and a paradox would occur since old Doc can't exist (like in Citizen Brown) and neither can Clara, Jules or Verne (since the 1885 trip can't exist without the 2015 trip).
As for old Biff being in 1955, it's much the same as Doc existing in 1931 (in Citizen Brown). There's many different theories for this (which was the start of the discussion of this thread). It does seem that there are echos of people who shouldn't be there. But I don't think these are permanent. It seems to be part of the ripple effect. The past seems to work like the future in that regard (at least to time travellers), it's written until it's changed. So, since the past is written, they exist. The past hasn't been fully written yet, since Marty still has chance to use the time machine in both instances, so they're still there at that point. Once the ability to time travel disappeared (like, if for instance, in Citizen Brown, Marty couldn't convince Citizen Brown that time travel was possible), then the ripple effect would catch up to them, the echos would likely disappear, and an unfixable paradox would occur (and we don't know (and never will know) what happens in the Back to the Future universe then).
Yeah 1955 seems to have been avoided in FCB's timeline, the events would have had to played differently, I doubt 1955 Doc would have had the knowledge or been able to help Marty with Edna around. And of course as we do see in 1986 Doc does steal plutonium from libyans (which there's no way he would have been able to do a second time)
The only thing that seems to have happened in 1955 is middle-aged Citizen Brown hitting his head and writing down the flux capacitor diagram (since it is the only page that exists in the journal in 1986 in the Citizen Brown timeline), although 1985 Citizen Brown never realized the significance.
What I mean by the timeline being linear is that time travel is part of each travelers timeline. So in marty's case, while in 2015, 1885 is in his future (although not written yet). The events which happen still happen to him as he does retain his memories.
The memories of time travelers is quite interesting, as it seems they retain the memories of the travels they encountered (even if the timelines no longer exist), but there's no indication that they gain the memories of the versions of themselves they are replacing in the new timeline (since Marty didn't remember his family being better off financially when he replaced the Marty in the Lone Pine timeline). So, it seems that even if the OUTATIME timeline Marty didn't make the same time travels as the original Marty, the original Marty would still remember making those trips.
I personally don't think concrete points (at least not in the Doctor Who sense, where they're meant to always exist in the same way) are part of the Back to the Future rules of time travel. Doc does say that the future hasn't been written yet (which opens up a whole other can of beans, since it obviously already exists). But I think that Doc just means the future can be changed since they didn't live it yet.
The way Back to the Future universe seems to work is that time is written, both in the future and in the past. That explains the flying circuits, hoverboard, and the fax existing in the past. In the latter regards, the ripple effect of future time travel seems to work very similarly to past time travel (except for the speed of the ripple effect, which seems to slow down if you travel before the point that started the ripple (for example Marty in Get Tannen) and speed up if you travel past that point (for example Biff in Back to the Future Part II).
Since the future is like the past, it would stand to reason that the ripple effect would exist there as well, once the time traveller caught up to it and actually started living it (since the effect starts only once the point is reached by the time traveller, since Biff didn't feel the effects until he returned to 2015).
Marty would be living his life in regular time (or close to it, he'd obviously be missing weeks from his regular life due to the travels in the trilogy, and later in the game, as well as unseen travels after the game and possibly the TV show [if you want to count those]). The ripple effect would catch up to him once he reached 2015 (since Marty's kids are the trigger point of the ripple effect), if Doc didn't intervene. Without his son getting in trouble, Doc wouldn't send Marty to 2015 (at the end of Back to the Future), and a paradox would occur since old Doc can't exist (like in Citizen Brown) and neither can Clara, Jules or Verne (since the 1885 trip can't exist without the 2015 trip).
As for old Biff being in 1955, it's much the same as Doc existing in 1931 (in Citizen Brown). There's many different theories for this (which was the start of the discussion of this thread). It does seem that there are echos of people who shouldn't be there. But I don't think these are permanent. It seems to be part of the ripple effect. The past seems to work like the future in that regard (at least to time travellers), it's written until it's changed. So, since the past is written, they exist. The past hasn't been fully written yet, since Marty still has chance to use the time machine in both instances, so they're still there at that point. Once the ability to time travel disappeared (like, if for instance, in Citizen Brown, Marty couldn't convince Citizen Brown that time travel was possible), then the ripple effect would catch up to them, the echos would likely disappear, and an unfixable paradox would occur (and we don't know (and never will know) what happens in the Back to the Future universe then).
The only thing that seems to have happened in 1955 is middle-aged Citizen Brown hitting his head and writing down the flux capacitor diagram (since it is the only page that exists in the journal in 1986 in the Citizen Brown timeline), although 1985 Citizen Brown never realized the significance.
The memories of time travelers is quite interesting, as it seems they retain the memories of the travels they encountered (even if the timelines no longer exist), but there's no indication that they gain the memories of the versions of themselves they are replacing in the new timeline (since Marty didn't remember his family being better off financially when he replaced the Marty in the Lone Pine timeline). So, it seems that even if the OUTATIME timeline Marty didn't make the same time travels as the original Marty, the original Marty would still remember making those trips.
the future and the past are all points in the timeline. Both seem to be able to only be changed via time travel. Remember in part II, everything happens exactly the way Doc has recorded it in 2015 until a change is made.
there's plenty of evidence indicating 'old' timelines are still remembered for time travelers; in the game marty does talk about how the time machine made things better and that was 7 months later for him. He also has no clue what is going on during the 'bad' timelines (hell valley, tannnen crime valley, FCB)
the ripple effect does seem to go backwards; during the FCB timeline it is indicated that the 1885 travels have been erased as it is once again referred to clayton ravine. The junction point is the key indicator for the ripple; examples include george kissing lorraine, biff disappearing, the burning of the almanac, the destruction of the tombstomb etc.
Comments
Well the big question is was Doc duplicated?
We know that this doc (which ended up in 1885 with that delorean) eventually went to 2025 to retreive it, so did that delorean end up in mid air in 2025 without a driver? Unless something happened to him I don't think there was a duplicate doc. If there was he wouldnt know he was duplicated so you'd think 2025 doc would go back to 1955 for Marty (since he had the technology to fix the delorean).
Also the time circuits in part II were flashing January 1st 1885 twice on screen (once right before they go back to 1955 and once when doc flies the delorean to the school). Now granted these are the only 2 times we are seeing the time circuits after they leave 2015, no reason they couldnt flash 2025. Or you could argue that the combination of the jiggowat overload, scrambled time circuits, and spinning delorean confused it as to whether it should be going to the future or past (logically it should have to perform an internal calculation for how far it needs to travel and whether its forwards or backwards)
The 1885 DeLorean was damaged, so the 2025 DeLorean would have to be fixed. It's possible Griff took the DeLorean from Doc in 2025 when he was fixing it, and the other Doc saw only Griff with the DeLorean and just assumed just the DeLorean was duplicated, leaving Doc stranded in 2025.
I was also wondering, with the fact that Doc was a whole different person from Double Visions on, what the new timeline would be like. At the very least, it would seem that some events would be different since Doc was completely secure with his inventing to the point where he was openly living in 1986 in that timeline, so that Doc doesn't seem like the kind that would destroy the time machine. Since the events happened differently, I wonder whether the temporal duplication occurred at all in the new timeline since all the variables would have to line up very precisely for that event to happen.
Anyways I kind of understand the whole objects not completely fading after the jump. But then again who's to say that they didn't just happen to have a copy of the newspaper in the new timeline? Also did the tombstone disappear on the photograph after he saved himself, or did they simply not show it? I can't remember. But there is no reason for him to take a picture of the ground. I also heard on the forums that it was also possible that Marty went after Doc regardless of seeing his tombstone.
If that is true then I can't believe that theory or how the time machine was able to return from 1931 and then Marty would fade out and be replaced by FCB Marty because he couldn't time travel in that timeline.
If you're referring to the Doc of the final timeline, who showed up in Ep. 5, then I don't see why the temporal duplication wouldn't have happened. While Doc's life was different (he had a good relationship with his father, and ran his father's foundation), his path was essentially the same as that of the Original Doc's. He came up with the idea of flux capacitor in 1955, met Marty, invented the time machine in 1985, went on all the time travel trips we saw in the movies, INCLUDING the trip to 1955 in which the Delorean was struck by lightning, sending HIM to 1885 and the temporal duplicate Delorean to 2025.
The major difference between his path and the Original Doc's path is that the new Doc never got arrested as the speakeasy arsonist in 1931, and instead returned to 1986 for the Key to the City ceremony...this divergence is presumably what causes the Delorean used in Eps. 1-4 (which belonged to the Original Doc) to erase at the end of Ep. 5, because its timeline had been erased.
I believe that one possible explanation for the tombstone paradox is that in the final 1955, Marty finds the photograph of the Clock Tower inaugration he took with Doc in 1885, realizes he was meant to go back, and then travels back in time. When he does, that Marty is erased and replaced by the version we follow in the film.
Thing with FCB Marty is that there was no way he could have time traveled, so logically he should still be there in FCB 1986.
VERY smart and logical explanation!
And yes. FCB Marty must exist. When talking to Marty's dad in episode 3 I think he says he expected you to be at some math contest or something. Not really sure. But that is still a plot hole/paradox IMO. If Marty never time traveled then it would be the same as if his past self was killed. He would cease to exist and be replaced by his temporal duplicate AKA FCB Marty.
It's a slightly different doc but he would have had to go through MOST of the time jumps the old doc did; Jules and Verne still exist so he'd have gone through the same path up to and including getting stuck in 1885. Now one key time jump which changed is that this doc eventually returned to 1985 to live (and has stayed there the last six months) whereas the old doc has been gone for six months.
It certainly is possible for another doc to have been stranded in 2025. Though how would our doc know about the duplication? He did indicate they were considering sending Verne to college in the 2020's so he and Clara have likely been there.
Also I asked this before but never got a really answer. If a paradox does happen in the BTTF universe what will the end result be? Will the universe actually explode? Have you ever considered paradoxes did happen in BTTF but we never noticed it?
Well, in the strictest sense, BTTF2 and 3 are LOADED with paradoxes. So the answer to your question is-nothing happens. Well, nothing catastrophic anyway.
Take the whole 1985-A/Hell Valley timeline for instance. Its one BIG paradox, on so many levels-
1. By giving himself the Almanac and making himself rich, Biff destroys his younger self's motivation to steal the Almanac and go back in time in the first place (a common problem to all intentional attempts to change the past).
2. Because alternate Biff gets Doc committed, the time machine is never constructed. If the time machine never exists, then its impossible for Biff to go back and give himself the Almanac.
3. By preventing Marty and Doc from becoming friends, by sending Marty to a boarding school, Biff has prevented them from making the trip to 2015, which was how he was meant to steal the Almanac and Delorean (though this point is pretty academic, considering that the time machine itself wasn't invented).
4. In the new timeline, Biff is apparently shot dead by Lorraine in 1996, so he couldn't be alive in 2015 to become 'Old Biff'...
So there are no less than FOUR paradoxes associated with the Hell Valley timeline! And yet, NOTHING happens to the universe...
The solution to these paradoxes, though Bob Gale has never stated them outright, is that when the time traveler alters the timeline so drastically as to prevent his own existence, or the time jump from ever happening, the time traveler will be erased from existence...but the event which caused the divergence will be preserved as a necessary part of the new timeline. So, Old Biff, by giving himself the Almanac, has logically created a major paradox, and he is erased from existence when he returns to 2015, but we still see him in 1955 giving himself the Almanac later in the film. Some people call this the 'echo theory' (the title of this thread in fact!)...I simply call it a case of the time traveler erasing the timeline he came from, and thus erasing himself.
I don't really buy the echo theory. But I do have to admit it's true in BTTF. This pretty much solves every paradox. However I don't think that solves why Marty faded away. If the echo theory does exist then all that means is even though they get erased from existence or stop them from time traveling then their actions still occurred and they still existed for a short period of time. That doesn't mean that they can freely time travel.
I stand by my statement. He should have faded. I accept that a paradox didn't happen because of the echo theory though. I think since the critical junction point was the expo he should of been fine as soon as he jumped to 1986 and then he and the time machine should have faded.
That's why I don't call it the 'echo theory' because I don't believe the time traveler's from erased timelines are mere 'echoes'. They are living, breathing entities with as much free will as any other individual.
Case in point...Old Biff in 1955 wasn't just an 'echo', even if his timeline was erased. After giving the Almanac to his younger self, he was free to do anything he wanted, as long as he didn't return to 2015 (or pretty much any point in time after 1996, the year he was shot). He could have lived out his life in the past, or could have traveled back and settled down in the 19th century...he could have done ANYTHING he wanted before the date when his alternate self was shot dead. He had complete free will.
Now, granted, Old Biff's case is somewhat clear cut, in that his alternate self is supposed to be dead, so he clearly erased his existence. But Marty and Doc's case is far different...because their alternate selves were clearly alive in all the alternate timelines they visit; but simply didn't time travel. Logically, that should invalidate the existence of the time traveling versions...but somehow that doesn't really happen.
Which time are you talking about Marty fadint? In part I he fades because he critical junction point for his conception (the dance kiss) is in jeopardy. In episode 1/2 he starts fading at the same point his grandfather is killed. Both those times he is avoiding his own birth. He is clearly still born in the FCB timeline.
Marty's fading in Episode 2 didn't really make much sense as per the established rules in BTTF1 either.
Marty apparently starts fading AFTER his grandfather was beaten to death. Later, even when he travels back earlier in the day, to a time BEFORE his grandfather was in any perceivable danger, he continues to have fading 'spasms' which get progressively worse. But that really doesn't make sense.
As per the rules in BTTF1, the moment Arthur McFly died, Marty would simply fade from existence. Period. There is no way Marty can continue to exist in a time period where Arthur McFly is dead, because the probability of his existence if 0.
Also, when Marty goes back to a time BEFORE Arthur McFly was killed, he should be fine. Or at any rate, the fading shouldn't be AS bad, because there is now a probability that Marty could exist.
Marty doesn't just fade in the movie and episode 1 and 2 because he ceased to exist. It was also because his time travel didn't exist. It should be the same circumstances with Marty as it was for Doc. He couldn't time travel in this timeline so he should be replaced by FCB Marty like Doc was replaced by FCB Doc.
Maybe because he already experience the point after his Grandpa died even though he went back a few minutes later?
i'm kind of unclear on the timeline for those few days; Marty arrives June 13th 1931, June 14th is the day the murders happen so I'm assuming the newspaper he reads was printed june 15th? (I know Marty says in episode 1 he's going to the day before doc gets killed)
Arthur gives his deposition around 4 pm, in episode 2 Marty goes back to 4:45. The question is at what point is Artie killed? Also what time is the ending of ep1/begginning of 2? Seems artie got beat to death (doesn't make sense to me how he'd be found, Kid has an underground speakeasy, you'd think he'd dispose of the body?) Kid is obviously driving the police truck doc is in, had he killed Artie yet?
As for Marty's rate of fading out, you have to remember the ripple theory. The moment time was changed the ripple started catching up with Marty. Going back in time wouldn't stop the ripple, but it would slow it down (as going into the future past the point of erasure speeds it up). If you'll notice he wasn't fading as bad when he went back in time. At the beginning of episode 2, he was fading out. When he went back to the events of episode 1 he would remain solid for periods of time.
Pretty much what I was trying to say.
I agree its been a while since I've gone through the games so I agree that I may have got the details wrong, but somehow I've always considered the 'ripple effect' to be probability-based rather than time-based.
For instance, in BTTF1, every moment George and Lorraine DON'T get together, the probability of the McFly kids being born drops closer and closer to 0, hence they gradually begin to fade from the photograph. When they (nearly) don't kiss and the probability of Marty existing drops VERY close to 0, Marty starts to fade himself. Its not that the ripple effect takes a week to catch up, but rather there was a week between the divergence Marty caused in the timeline and the critical event which determined the fate of George McFly and Lorraine Baines one way or another.
But the Game seems to be showing the ripple effect as being time-based...almost like a disease of sorts which continues to follow Marty wherever and WHENever he goes. And this theory is reflected in Episode 5, when Marty and Doc are in 1931 when it transforms around them into the 'Burnt Hill Valley'. Doc somehow calculates that they have about an hour before the ripple effect catches up with them and erases them. How exactly DO you make a calculation like that? The way I see it, Marty and Doc should either have faded from existence the MOMENT Edna went back, or they should be able to exist indefinetly in the alternate 1931, depending on how the probabilities of their being born (or not) work out as off 1931.
Well, that's pretty much what DID happen as per the deleted scene.
You may have got me there! The only explanation is that the fading process itself takes time once it begins...people being erased from existence can be considered akin to the space-time continuum 'healing' itself.
That said, i don't for a moment pretend BTTF is at ALL consistent about the speeds of the 'ripple effect'. Its a clear case of movie logic...in BTTF2, when the Almanac in burnt, we see the matchbook change first, then Marty's newspaper, and THEN Doc's newspaper...logically, all of them should have changed at the SAME time. But it's not something one really thinks much about.
My point is, that whether the ripple effect is time-based or probability-based; the portrayal in Episode 2 of the Game does seem to go against what was established on screen in BTTF1. In BTTF1, we see Marty's siblings fading from the photograph gradually and only in the END, at the 'critical junction point' of George and Lorraine's kiss, does Marty HIMSELF start to fade.
Whereas, in the Game, not only does the photograph of George McFly continue to fade (which makes sense), but Marty keeps having these 'fading spasms' which make no sense at all...considering that he didn't have them back in 1955 in BTTF1.
Not really, the ripple effect seems to affect things in chronological order. Not sure about the matchbooks (as far as when they get changed) but Marty's newspaper is from 1973, docs is from 1983 so it is logically that marty changes first (ripple effect going forward). Similar to how in part I, the 3 Mcfly kids fade in order of age (again the ripple effect going forward). Likewise in 1931 Georges face starts fading more than Marty's body (georges birth being prevented first). Marty's spasms don't seem any better or worse in episode 2 vs part I; in part I they were bad enough to litterally bring him off his feet whereas in episode 2 he was still standing (both times his hand started to fade first). Biff has pretty much the same spasms in the deleted scene but he does seem to poke himself with the cane.
If the ripple effect doesn't involve probabilities, how else would you explain the changing tombstone picture in BTTF3?
That photograph literally keeps changing depending on how events are developing on 1885...Doc himself states how they photograph represent what will happen if events are allowed to progress naturally i.e. the 'most likely' future. I'd say that means probabilities are involved.
I think it's both probabilities based and time based. Once you pass the junction point it then becomes time based. Regardless if you jumped back to the past.
Also like Michael J Fox is Canadian said, I'm pretty sure they took longer to change because certain events happened first. Marty's newspaper was before Doc's and assume in the Hell Valley timeline the matchbook was created early (At the start of BTTF2 it's established that he just printed them out).
But that's an inherently paradoxical statement (no pun intended!) It may well be time based once you pass the 'junction point', but the moment you jumped back to the past, you would be way BEFORE the 'junction point. So suppose Arthur McFly was nearly dead at the end of Episode 1 and that's the 'junction point'. Okay, fair enough, that means Marty starts fading...but then Marty goes back in time a few hours to way BEFORE the 'junction point', so he shouldn't be fading now.
It does make some sense. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that he can still fade if he already experienced a moment after the junction point even if he went back.
Oh it is probability based, not doubting that. The junction point for docs death was september 5th 1885 when he got shot, once marty stops it, his name fades but the date does not (had Doc stayed away from the saloon, it probably would have been Marshall Strickland on that tombstomb). Once Marty goes to the saloon, 'Clint eastwood' appears because he's who buford wants dead, and of course once the tombstomb is destroyed it disappeared.
So back to Artie; marty fades out until the wheels are in motion for him to die are averted. While Artie is in the possession of tannens goons, the most likely scenario is still him dying but it's unconfirmed.
Okay, look at it this way. If Marty starts to fade because he's past the 'junction point', then that means that his fading is because of the fact that he is existing at a certain point of time. Ergo, if he chooses to travel to another earlier point in time, he should stop fading.
To my mind, it makes FAR more sense for the ripple effect to be probability based. I mean, there has to be a reason why Marty was starting to fade at PRECISELY the moment of George and Lorraine's kiss (which almost didn't happen)...and that he stopped fading and the McFly kids were 'restored' the moment they DID kiss. Or why the newspapers changed the moment the Almanac was burnt. Objects (and people!) from the future, reflect the most probable future based on how events are developing in the past. The ripple effect alters or erases them based on changing probabilities.
I know what you're saying but you're also repeating your self. By your logic the newspaper should have changed exactly when they went to back to 1955 because that was before the junction point where Biff gave himself the Almanac (although we don't see the newspapers at that point).
Or the picture of the tombstone. It stayed the same when he arrived in 1885 even though it happened before he got shot. Why did it stay the same? Because that picture had already passed the junction point.
Keep in mind Marty only went back in time a few hours. you could also argue the process of him fading has already started.
Whether traveling to the future or the past, pictures/newspapers don't change until they are actually changed. Doc dying and the biffhoric timeline are still reflected until they are actually changed. Or the october 22nd 2015 newspaper; it stays the same until the picture captioning it is taken differently (griff instead of marty jr). So for instance the act of traveling back to 1955 did not change the timeline for doc and marty. The newspapers did not change until the timeline was changed.
In terms of probabilities, this would be the answer-
When Marty and Doc arrive in 1955, the 'most likely future' is still one where Old Biff will show up and give himself the Almanac, and Biff will get rich. Marty and Doc have to actively work to change that future, and when they succeed, by burning the Almanac, the probability of Biff getting rich becomes 0, hence the newspapers change instantly.
Newspapers and photographs are simply reflective of the 'most likely future'...or rather they reflect what is most likely to be the status quo at their point of origin. So the picture of the tombstone is actually a snapshot of what that particular location will be like on the night of November 14th 1955. Depending on how events change in 1885, what will be on that spot in November 14th 1955 changes.
I wasn't saying they should have changed. I was saying they should have changed based on his logic. He says going before the junction point should stop the fading or changing. That means going before the junction point would also affect the newspapers and they would return to normal until the junction point is passed again. It doesn't work like that.
The only trips that have to happen to make the OUTATIME outcome is the first 1955 trip and the 1885 trip.
The events of 2015 that led to Hell Valley had to do with Marty being greedy and wanting to make himself rich by using time travel for personal gain. But in the new timeline, Doc had a good relationship with his father, so he might be a better father figure to Marty, helping Marty with his own issues with his father, meaning that Marty might not feel like he needs to get away from his family so badly (this is likely since we know family means more to Doc than before since he originally went to 1931 to investigate the arsons and in the new timeline went to investigate Marty's family lineage).
So, because Marty would have an improved relationship with Doc, he might not have even ever have been in the accident with the Rolls Royce (since Doc would teach Marty the importance of family and he wouldn't be overcompensating for the thoughts of him not wanting to be weak like his father).
So the 2015 trip might not have happened. And it wouldn't have had to have occurred, either. Combining the outcome of the 1955 trip (which George McFly became someone Marty was proud to call father), plus Doc's instilling the importance of family to Marty from the beginning (and the fact that the Rolls Royce incident wouldn't occur), Marty would be a better father to his kids, his son would never get mixed up with Griff, and his kids wouldn't go to prison.
There's nothing in 2015 that's important for Marty to do in this timeline (although it is important for Doc to get the rejuvenation treatments, the hover conversion, and to install Mr. Fusion), but he did that all before his trip with Marty anyway.
Without the trip to 2015, the 1985 Hell Valley timeline wouldn't exist, and the second 1955 trip wouldn't have happened. So, the DeLorean wouldn't have been hit by lightning.
So, now Doc just travels to 1885 on his own (or with Marty), which would be likely since Doc stated he always wanted to go to the Old West (and we know that Doc likes to travel in round numbers from his line at the end of the first movie, so traveling 100 years into the past would make perfect sense). But, the events would be very different. We know that Doc must have gotten there before Clara died in the ravine, but we don't know the exact date he got there.
The DeLorean would be fully functional, so Doc wouldn't have been stranded, and he wouldn't have set up shop as a blacksmith. So the feud with Mad Dog Tannen wouldn't have happened. Also, it would be Doc, not Marty driving, so the gas tank would be in tact (or if it wasn't, Doc would at least know to patch it quick before all the fuel leaked out). So, Doc could spend as much time with Clara and leave whenever he wanted.
Doc also didn't need Marty in 1885 in this timeline, since he's not a scared man around women anymore, having experienced first love and loss with Edna. So it's possible that Marty wasn't with him, and if he was, he might have only been there long enough to celebrate at the festival, and left Doc and Clara alone since Doc wasn't in any danger.
Since Doc didn't need to hijack a train to leave 1885, the DeLorean wouldn't have been destroyed by the train in 1985, Doc wouldn't have invented a time train (unless he did it later for fun), and the ravine would still be called Shonash Ravine.
None of these changes would be devastating to the timeline. The first 1955 trip would still improve George McFly's self esteem, Doc's improved relationship with Marty would keep Marty from feeling like he has to overcompensate because he doesn't want to appear weak like his father (so the Rolls Royce accident wouldn't happen and Marty would be a good dad to his kids), Doc and Clara would still get together, and they still would have Jules and Verne.
I think the game establishes the timeline as being linear for the characters. Even the trilogy itself establishes it;
-we know that 2015 will play out differently. No marty getting fired, no giving up on his music due to the car accident. Yet even after that all gets avoided, doc shows up in the time train with Clara meaning the 1885 trip which was triggered via the 2015 trip still happened
-2015 clearly doesn't happen in the FCB timeline. That is the reason why doc fades. And of course for most of this timeline, Marty and Jennifer do not end up together (his fading pic) which means no Marty Jr. and Marlene.
now one main thing which has been touched on is that the delorean in the game was a temporal duplicate sent to 2025. They didnt establish it's rules other than the fact that it exists.
Doc, knowing the points which have to happen to make the trips occur in circular time, would certainly do his best to make sure that they did happen. At the end of the trilogy, he has a time train, so there's no reason that he can't travel to these points and set things up. The three main points in the trilogy (which set the rest in motion) are: the first trip to 1955 (which we already know still happens in circular time due to the end of Back to the Future), the trip to 2015 (which Doc could set in motion by simply telling Marty to let things play out naturally in regards to his son and Griff, since he knows they'll be corrected by Marty and Doc in circular time), and the trip to 1885 (which would simply be put in motion by Doc bribing the cemetery to put up a fake tombstone in Doc's name with the death date from Back to Future Part III on it).
But, you made a good point about the hoverboard in another thread. I forgot about that bit, so Marty's trip to 2015 would still be necessary in the OUTATIME timeline.
But there's still no reason that the trip has to be the same as the original timeline's trip. Doc clearly has a differing view of time travel in this timeline (judging by the fact that he lives in 1986 part time), so he might just simply bring Marty along for the ride after the events of Back to the Future. Doc then might simply buy the hoverboard for Marty (he's already fine with bringing back future technology for himself, a family oriented Doc might be fine with bringing some technology back for Marty as well).
Yep. And the 1955 trip didn't happen either, since George is wimpy and has stalker tendencies and Lorraine has a drinking problem.
Yep. But that doesn't mean that it's still the temporal duplicate DeLorean by the end of the game. There's a lot of possibilities opened up by the end of OUTATIME.
2015 is a concrete point in the timeline. As mentioned the flying circuits and hoverboard remain intact as does the 'you're fired' fax until it is avoided. But moreso when they go back to 1955, we see 2015 biff still there despite that timeline being avoided. And doc does believe a paradox can happen IN 2015.
Yeah 1955 seems to have been avoided in FCB's timeline, the events would have had to played differently, I doubt 1955 Doc would have had the knowledge or been able to help Marty with Edna around. And of course as we do see in 1986 Doc does steal plutonium from libyans (which there's no way he would have been able to do a second time)
What I mean by the timeline being linear is that time travel is part of each travelers timeline. So in marty's case, while in 2015, 1885 is in his future (although not written yet). The events which happen still happen to him as he does retain his memories.
The way Back to the Future universe seems to work is that time is written, both in the future and in the past. That explains the flying circuits, hoverboard, and the fax existing in the past. In the latter regards, the ripple effect of future time travel seems to work very similarly to past time travel (except for the speed of the ripple effect, which seems to slow down if you travel before the point that started the ripple (for example Marty in Get Tannen) and speed up if you travel past that point (for example Biff in Back to the Future Part II).
Since the future is like the past, it would stand to reason that the ripple effect would exist there as well, once the time traveller caught up to it and actually started living it (since the effect starts only once the point is reached by the time traveller, since Biff didn't feel the effects until he returned to 2015).
Marty would be living his life in regular time (or close to it, he'd obviously be missing weeks from his regular life due to the travels in the trilogy, and later in the game, as well as unseen travels after the game and possibly the TV show [if you want to count those]). The ripple effect would catch up to him once he reached 2015 (since Marty's kids are the trigger point of the ripple effect), if Doc didn't intervene. Without his son getting in trouble, Doc wouldn't send Marty to 2015 (at the end of Back to the Future), and a paradox would occur since old Doc can't exist (like in Citizen Brown) and neither can Clara, Jules or Verne (since the 1885 trip can't exist without the 2015 trip).
As for old Biff being in 1955, it's much the same as Doc existing in 1931 (in Citizen Brown). There's many different theories for this (which was the start of the discussion of this thread). It does seem that there are echos of people who shouldn't be there. But I don't think these are permanent. It seems to be part of the ripple effect. The past seems to work like the future in that regard (at least to time travellers), it's written until it's changed. So, since the past is written, they exist. The past hasn't been fully written yet, since Marty still has chance to use the time machine in both instances, so they're still there at that point. Once the ability to time travel disappeared (like, if for instance, in Citizen Brown, Marty couldn't convince Citizen Brown that time travel was possible), then the ripple effect would catch up to them, the echos would likely disappear, and an unfixable paradox would occur (and we don't know (and never will know) what happens in the Back to the Future universe then).
The only thing that seems to have happened in 1955 is middle-aged Citizen Brown hitting his head and writing down the flux capacitor diagram (since it is the only page that exists in the journal in 1986 in the Citizen Brown timeline), although 1985 Citizen Brown never realized the significance.
The memories of time travelers is quite interesting, as it seems they retain the memories of the travels they encountered (even if the timelines no longer exist), but there's no indication that they gain the memories of the versions of themselves they are replacing in the new timeline (since Marty didn't remember his family being better off financially when he replaced the Marty in the Lone Pine timeline). So, it seems that even if the OUTATIME timeline Marty didn't make the same time travels as the original Marty, the original Marty would still remember making those trips.
the future and the past are all points in the timeline. Both seem to be able to only be changed via time travel. Remember in part II, everything happens exactly the way Doc has recorded it in 2015 until a change is made.
there's plenty of evidence indicating 'old' timelines are still remembered for time travelers; in the game marty does talk about how the time machine made things better and that was 7 months later for him. He also has no clue what is going on during the 'bad' timelines (hell valley, tannnen crime valley, FCB)
the ripple effect does seem to go backwards; during the FCB timeline it is indicated that the 1885 travels have been erased as it is once again referred to clayton ravine. The junction point is the key indicator for the ripple; examples include george kissing lorraine, biff disappearing, the burning of the almanac, the destruction of the tombstomb etc.