There's something to be said for tying the puzzles together with an interesting story--a la KQ5 and 6.
Although, King's Quest is more about the puzzles and exploration than the story (I'm looking at you, Telltale!) but having a good story to go with it adds to the fun.
I liked the AGDI and IA remakes. Looking back, I do think AGDI did some non-KQ things to their games (like instantly transforming Possum into a young woman). I can also understand why people might be annoyed with The Father, but I'm not.
Also, for what feels like the hundredth time, I refuse to ever play The Silver Lining. For one thing, the graphics look fan-made to me; but primarily, it's because I read on these forums that in TSL Manannan
is related to Valanice
, which is completely preposterous and angers me every time I think about it.
Well Chyron it might be worse depending on ones perspective (she may not be a blood relation, but a former member of the Black Cloaks and her reference to "father" may be a reference to her position in The Family);
The Family is an organization within the Black Cloak Society (unofficial)[1] The 'father' is a position within the Family. Those under the father are known as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Manannan (unofficial) would give anything for their father’s love. The world does not suspect that the Society has reformed, their father strikes when the world is least prepared.[2] There are apparently several fathers and mothers in the organization. The Family asks for complete commitment. It is their way: one must give and give to their brothers and sisters, to their mothers and fathers.”[3]
The Witch of the Dark Forest (unofficial) and Lucreto (unofficial) searched out for members of the Family in order to join the Black Cloak Society. They became initiates within the Family.
"The 'father' is a position within The Family (unofficial), a suborganization within the Black Cloak Society (unofficial). Those under the father are known as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Manannan (unofficial) would give anything for their father’s love. The world does not suspect that the Society has reformed, their father strikes when the world is least prepared.[1] There are apparently several fathers and mothers in the organization. The Family asks for complete commitment. It is their way: one must give and give to their brothers and sisters, to their mothers and fathers, proving they are part of the Family.”[2]" (see The Four Winds)
Although from my perspective, both teams have basically done much the same things to the characters and the universe... AGDI just got to the warping first...
The evil society thing was hardly touched on in the official games, and wasn't even considered that important. The problem is every fan fiction writer under the son, decided to go with it... This goes back to even before AGDI got aroudn to it! Cassima's Quest a fan fiction story from back in 1997 or so, even has its own interpretation of 'the father' and 'mother' idea...! As in the first member of the Black Cloak society, who had been cursed, to form the society! The father and mother were the parents of Manannan, Hagatha, and Mordack! Shadrack was their uncle... It was shadrack who made the curse in the first place. :P
To me, The Father exists only to explain why all these crazy things keep happening to the royal family. No more, no less.
In a way, it makes more sense when one tries to say that their need to go on all these quests is caused by a deliberate act rather than coincidental. That's why I don't hate him. His action makes somewhat sense to the story. (Seriously--Alexander only met Cassima once, for a few minutes, and can't stop thinking about her.)
For TSL to do what I previously mentioned (*grrr*) makes no sense, adds nothing interesting to the canon titles, and has no reason to exist other than to complicate things that shouldn't be complicated.
To me, The Father exists only to explain why all these crazy things keep happening to the royal family. No more, no less.
In a way, it makes more sense when one tries to say that their need to go on all these quests is caused by a deliberate act rather than coincidental. That's why I don't hate him. His action makes somewhat sense to the story. (Seriously--Alexander only met Cassima once, for a few minutes, and can't stop thinking about her.)
In my opinion that's a horrible 'fan fiction' idea (which has been a fan fiction idea since nearly the late 90s, and AGDI reused the idea)... Why does everything need to be 'tied together'? Why must their be a crazy organization, connected to everything? It's incredibly cheesy. Why must everything be made complicated?
It seems almost hypocritical for someone to praise one fan group doing it, while condemning another fan group for doing it! I'm personally not a fan of being done in general.
In anycase, did you know that Lucreto was the original official KQ character to be given the title The Father? Within KQ8? He was only The Father in the spiritual sense, in that Satan was also considered 'The Father of Lies', aka, 'your father, the devil'.
In my opinion that's a horrible 'fan fiction' idea (which has been a fan fiction idea since nearly the late 90s, and AGDI reused the idea)... Why does everything need to be 'tied together'? Why must their be a crazy organization, connected to everything? It's incredibly cheesy. Why must everything be made complicated?
When I think of The Father, I don't think of the Society of the Black Cloak. I think of the curse. The curse that makes King Graham have a heart attack mere seconds after reuniting with his son and cause Alexander to obsess over a woman he briefly only met once.
In anycase, did you know that Lucreto was the original official KQ character to be given the title The Father? Within MoE?
Fixed.
I have not played MoE. I did watch a Let's Play of it, but I don't remember that part.
When I think of The Father, I don't think of the Society of the Black Cloak. I think of the curse. The curse that makes King Graham have a heart attack mere seconds after reuniting with his son and cause Alexander to obsess over a woman he briefly only met once.
Which is just as freaking silly. KQ4 explains the heart attack well enough. It was the stress of nearly losing his daughter and kingdom to the dragon over the years. As well as the joy of the return of his children... There is no reason to add 'superstition' or 'magic' to the explanation... Its way to complicated...
Also remember, Graham obssessed over a women he only saw once... Just as much... No need to 'explain' that as the 'Fathers' doing It's very silly... However, on the other end Valancie fell for Graham at first sight, and married at the same time! Oh let's not forget, even Edward obsessed over Dahlia whome he only saw once... Although I suppose in that situation it can be argued, he was bewitched by her... According to the narration in KQ4, even Rosella strongly thought about running away with Edgar (after seeing his human side for the first time), but saving her father was too important for her to go through with that idea... Of course Obviously, Edgar fell for her when he first saw her... Let's also not forget, Cassima wasn't cursed, but she fell for Alexander at first sight as well!
Love at first sight is a classic fairy tale trope... It doesn't need a real world explanation, nor a magical one...
But ugh, both AGDI and TSL use the same idea explain why or how Graham got together with Valancie ... Manipulation by the Black Cloak Society... (in both cases the Society manipulated the Magic Mirror to show Graham a vision, so he'd be drawn to Kolyma). They also use it to explain why Edgar and Rosella were brought together, they both explain why Cassima and Alexander were brought together, in their machinations for world dominance... As do half the fan fiction stories that use the Society out there, and have their own 'fathers' and 'mothers', and whatever crap....
Fixed.
I have not played MoE. I did watch a Let's Play of it, but I don't remember that part.
It's does not need to be 'fixed'. The game is known as KQ8. Even in the files, there are references to the game being "8" (as in folders 8bit which hold the 16-bit bitmap ".bmp" artwork, and the 8gui, which hold the graphic user interface files), and the official Sierra patches were KQ8Patch1.exe, and KQ8Patch2.exe made after the game's release. Not to mention Activision now calling it KQ8... Even Sierra's own Interaction Magazine called it KQ8 after its release...
Even Roberta and Ken William to this day, call it King's Quest 8. She nearly always referred to it as KQ8 in interviews after the game's release...
If you're going to have the Black Cloak Society be a facet of a KQ game, there are several better ways to go about it:
-There is no overarching thing tying them together outside of them being a group of evil individuals. There is no prophecy and not everything that ever happened (for example, Graham having a heart attack) was the result of a BCS member. The Royal Family (and Connor) just happens to foil the BCS' goals at every turn...Not because of fate or destiny or a prophecy. Just pure coincidence because The Royal Family are the good guys.
-The BCS isn't a tightly bound organization with a "Father", more like just a loose, huge association of people with similar motivations, whose goals perhaps overlap at certain times. They don't always talk about their individual plots with each other either--They could scheme to "one up" the other. A very loose confederation. Again, nothing to do with any prophecies. Their history does not need explaining, they don't have any ties to the Royal Family except in that the Royal Family has just gotten in the way several times.
-The BCS doesn't include every villain from the series, only Alhazred, Mordack and, Manannan. Manannan didn't steal Alex for any particular reason except that he was a wicked cruel bastard. The other villains are just plain old fashioned evil people who have no tie to any other bad guy and whose only aim/motivation is pure and simple to be evil/get power/etc. No complexities.
You don't want to turn the Black Cloak Society into the "Starcon" of the KQ series---an albatross around the series, restricting possible stories.
The only way I want to see Black Cloak Society tackled again, if it is tackled in an official game;
Is to reveal Shadrack. His character should be limited to that game, and that game only, and defeated... If he makes token references to characters/events from previous games, it should only be to Mordack, and Abdul Alhazred alone. As that is the limits of his references in KQ6.
Manannan is loose possible reference, since Shadrack probably would have known him through his meetings iwth Mordack, as Manannan the cat was living on the island with him, and its likely that Abdul Alhazred knew about Manannan as well. But still those references should be limited.
Shadrack should have his own plot, that a hero would foil... In a nice stand alone sort of way, with actual closure (no open ended cliffhangers).
In no way do I want to see a retread of 'every villain' in the series is a member of the Black Cloaks... It might even be interesting if Mordack isn't a member... That the organization is seperate entity but have had interactions with the dark Wizard in the past....
Also Shadrack need not be the 'leader of the organization'.... But just an equal to people like Abdul Alhazred. A twist would be that Abdul actually was the leader!
Also Shadrack need not be the 'leader of the organization'.... But just an equal to people like Abdul Alhazred. A twist would be that Abdul actually was the leader!
No surprise twists like that. Let's not go into M. Night Shmyalan territory.
Would it really be a surprise? I mean lets face it. Abdul is pretty much the only Black Cloak we have seen plotting... KQ6 sort of places him as an superior to Shadrack, and Shadrack sort of an advisor to him (its left somewhat vague enough that Shadrack may not even be a member)... It was the KQ Companion that sort of placed them as equals (with maybe Shadrack being a little more involved), and definitely specified Shadrack as a member of the society (Mordack's membership or not is vague in both sources however, he isn't specified either way).
In a future official game, we could hear from Shadrack about how the 'society collapsed' after their leader Abdul was defeated, and captured! Thus you get rid of any chance of a complicated, bring out a "Black Cloak' of the week style plots... Shadrack will be left to stand on his own ground, as an unaffiliated villain!
To me, The Father exists only to explain why all these crazy things keep happening to the royal family. No more, no less.
In a way, it makes more sense when one tries to say that their need to go on all these quests is caused by a deliberate act rather than coincidental. That's why I don't hate him. His action makes somewhat sense to the story. (Seriously--Alexander only met Cassima once, for a few minutes, and can't stop thinking about her.)
For TSL to do what I previously mentioned (*grrr*) makes no sense, adds nothing interesting to the canon titles, and has no reason to exist other than to complicate things that shouldn't be complicated.
Considering that Alexander lived a very sheltered life, it is possible for him to be smitten and stalker obsessed over Cassima after just one meeting. The KQ games are also fairytale games, so it is possible. In fairytales, it is common for two characters fall in love quickly. For instance, the prince married Cinderella after realizing the glass slipper belongs to her; they only met once before.
I have a harder time believing that Alexander can swim.
I want to see the series go back to its fairytale roots. If one thinks about it, most of the KQ games are strongly based on fairy tales and popular movies. Part 6 is heavily inspired by Aladdin whereas part 4 is partly inspired by "The Wizard of Oz".
Considering that Alexander lived a very sheltered life, it is possible for him to be smitten and stalker obsessed over Cassima after just one meeting. The KQ games are also fairytale games, so it is possible. In fairytales, it is common for two characters fall in love quickly. For instance, the prince married Cinderella after realizing. the glass slipper belongs to her; they only met once before.
Sure, just look how Alexander looked at the barmaid when he first saw her! Also how he was eying his own sister! Basically he liked her smooth, clean white skin, rosy lips, he has to avert his eyes from her breasts. It basically says he'd basically jump her, if she wasn't her sister... I kid you not, the narrator gets pretty specific! (let's not forget the bit where Rosella tells him to undress in front of him so she can check out his ass! Seriously he was probably working really hard to hide his "rising" shame)
Over the summer she [Rosella] had developed certain assets. She had noticed that these new assets had a very favorable effect on the young men of Daventry.-SNW, pg 6
If you "look" or "feel" Rosella the game says, "Princess Rosella is gorgeous! Why you'd be interested in if she weren't your own sister! Her hair is long silky, and golden. Here eyes are as blue as the bluest sky. Here skin is creamy white. And her BODY... Well!! Embarassed, you clear your throat and avert your eyes."
If you try to "touch rosella", Rosella says, "WATCH IT, FELLA!!"
I have a harder time believing that Alexander can swim.
Well he can... live with it! Maybe he was taught to swim when he was a little baby (many parents do teach their children to swim as infants). It's something babies learn, and it just sticks with them.
Considering he was kidnapped by the lake near the walls of Castle Daventry, maybe that's what his parents were doing at the time, . Teaching him how to swim....
I'd have a harder time believing an infant would make an effective 'slave', ... Why a wizard would put up with a crying baby for a few years, until they are old enough to take care of themselves and his affairs! I'd think a baby would cut into his Wizard time...
I want to see the series go back to its fairytale roots. If one thinks about it, most of the KQ games are strongly based on fairy tales and popular movies. Part 6 is heavily inspired by Aladdin whereas part 4 is partly inspired by "The Wizard of Oz".
KQ5 is a bit of Sin Bad, a bit of Return of the King, a bit of Fantasia, a bit of Merlin/Arthur, a bit of 40 Thieves, a bit of Jack the Giant Killer (evil wizard on a weird twisted island), etc.
Sure, just look how Alexander looked at the barmaid when he first saw her! Also how he was eying his own sister! Basically he liked her smooth, clean white skin, rosy lips, he has to avert his eyes from her breasts. It basically says he'd basically jump her, if she wasn't her sister... I kid you not, the narrator gets pretty specific! (let's not forget the bit where Rosella tells him to undress in front of him so she can check out his ass! Seriously he was probably working really hard to hide his "rising" shame)
my point exactly. Alexander had never seen a women before, so it is natural for him to be the obsessive and clingy type when it comes to women.
Well he can... live with it! Maybe he was taught to swim when he was a little baby (many parents do teach their children to swim as infants). It's something babies learn, and it just sticks with them.
Haha! That made me laugh! Lol
Considering he was kidnapped by the lake near the walls of Castle Daventry, maybe that's what his parents were doing at the time, . Teaching him how to swim....
I can imagine his parents letting him swim in the moat with the moat monster. Haha
I'd have a harder time believing an infant would make an effective 'slave', ... Why a wizard would put up with a crying baby for a few years, until they are old enough to take care of themselves and his affairs! I'd think a baby would cut into his Wizard time...
didn't you know that he had the cat take care of and teach Alexander the ways of infant labor? Lol
Just wanted to drop by and say I really enjoyed the in depth analysis of Graham's hat color! (seriously)
Think it's kind of odd that some the cyan/light blue actually seems to fit better composition-wise than the dark blue, which seems a bit crazy rich/heavy looking. Someone ought to try to reproduce that hat with blue dye made from approximations of the plants found in Daventry... Or does the hat have a backstory I don't remember.. hmm
Comments
Bt
Although, King's Quest is more about the puzzles and exploration than the story (I'm looking at you, Telltale!) but having a good story to go with it adds to the fun.
I liked the AGDI and IA remakes. Looking back, I do think AGDI did some non-KQ things to their games (like instantly transforming Possum into a young woman). I can also understand why people might be annoyed with The Father, but I'm not.
Also, for what feels like the hundredth time, I refuse to ever play The Silver Lining. For one thing, the graphics look fan-made to me; but primarily, it's because I read on these forums that in TSL Manannan
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_Family_(unofficial)
The Family is an organization within the Black Cloak Society (unofficial)[1] The 'father' is a position within the Family. Those under the father are known as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Manannan (unofficial) would give anything for their father’s love. The world does not suspect that the Society has reformed, their father strikes when the world is least prepared.[2] There are apparently several fathers and mothers in the organization. The Family asks for complete commitment. It is their way: one must give and give to their brothers and sisters, to their mothers and fathers.”[3]
The Witch of the Dark Forest (unofficial) and Lucreto (unofficial) searched out for members of the Family in order to join the Black Cloak Society. They became initiates within the Family.
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_Father_(unofficial)
"The 'father' is a position within The Family (unofficial), a suborganization within the Black Cloak Society (unofficial). Those under the father are known as 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Manannan (unofficial) would give anything for their father’s love. The world does not suspect that the Society has reformed, their father strikes when the world is least prepared.[1] There are apparently several fathers and mothers in the organization. The Family asks for complete commitment. It is their way: one must give and give to their brothers and sisters, to their mothers and fathers, proving they are part of the Family.”[2]" (see The Four Winds)
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cloak_Society_(unofficial)
Who knows, its way too complicated...
Although from my perspective, both teams have basically done much the same things to the characters and the universe... AGDI just got to the warping first...
The evil society thing was hardly touched on in the official games, and wasn't even considered that important. The problem is every fan fiction writer under the son, decided to go with it... This goes back to even before AGDI got aroudn to it! Cassima's Quest a fan fiction story from back in 1997 or so, even has its own interpretation of 'the father' and 'mother' idea...! As in the first member of the Black Cloak society, who had been cursed, to form the society! The father and mother were the parents of Manannan, Hagatha, and Mordack! Shadrack was their uncle... It was shadrack who made the curse in the first place. :P
In a way, it makes more sense when one tries to say that their need to go on all these quests is caused by a deliberate act rather than coincidental. That's why I don't hate him. His action makes somewhat sense to the story. (Seriously--Alexander only met Cassima once, for a few minutes, and can't stop thinking about her.)
For TSL to do what I previously mentioned (*grrr*) makes no sense, adds nothing interesting to the canon titles, and has no reason to exist other than to complicate things that shouldn't be complicated.
In my opinion that's a horrible 'fan fiction' idea (which has been a fan fiction idea since nearly the late 90s, and AGDI reused the idea)... Why does everything need to be 'tied together'? Why must their be a crazy organization, connected to everything? It's incredibly cheesy. Why must everything be made complicated?
It seems almost hypocritical for someone to praise one fan group doing it, while condemning another fan group for doing it! I'm personally not a fan of being done in general.
In anycase, did you know that Lucreto was the original official KQ character to be given the title The Father? Within KQ8? He was only The Father in the spiritual sense, in that Satan was also considered 'The Father of Lies', aka, 'your father, the devil'.
Fixed.
I have not played MoE. I did watch a Let's Play of it, but I don't remember that part.
Which is just as freaking silly. KQ4 explains the heart attack well enough. It was the stress of nearly losing his daughter and kingdom to the dragon over the years. As well as the joy of the return of his children... There is no reason to add 'superstition' or 'magic' to the explanation... Its way to complicated...
Also remember, Graham obssessed over a women he only saw once... Just as much... No need to 'explain' that as the 'Fathers' doing It's very silly... However, on the other end Valancie fell for Graham at first sight, and married at the same time! Oh let's not forget, even Edward obsessed over Dahlia whome he only saw once... Although I suppose in that situation it can be argued, he was bewitched by her... According to the narration in KQ4, even Rosella strongly thought about running away with Edgar (after seeing his human side for the first time), but saving her father was too important for her to go through with that idea... Of course Obviously, Edgar fell for her when he first saw her... Let's also not forget, Cassima wasn't cursed, but she fell for Alexander at first sight as well!
Love at first sight is a classic fairy tale trope... It doesn't need a real world explanation, nor a magical one...
But ugh, both AGDI and TSL use the same idea explain why or how Graham got together with Valancie
It's does not need to be 'fixed'. The game is known as KQ8. Even in the files, there are references to the game being "8" (as in folders 8bit which hold the 16-bit bitmap ".bmp" artwork, and the 8gui, which hold the graphic user interface files), and the official Sierra patches were KQ8Patch1.exe, and KQ8Patch2.exe made after the game's release. Not to mention Activision now calling it KQ8... Even Sierra's own Interaction Magazine called it KQ8 after its release...
Even Roberta and Ken William to this day, call it King's Quest 8. She nearly always referred to it as KQ8 in interviews after the game's release...
-There is no overarching thing tying them together outside of them being a group of evil individuals. There is no prophecy and not everything that ever happened (for example, Graham having a heart attack) was the result of a BCS member. The Royal Family (and Connor) just happens to foil the BCS' goals at every turn...Not because of fate or destiny or a prophecy. Just pure coincidence because The Royal Family are the good guys.
-The BCS isn't a tightly bound organization with a "Father", more like just a loose, huge association of people with similar motivations, whose goals perhaps overlap at certain times. They don't always talk about their individual plots with each other either--They could scheme to "one up" the other. A very loose confederation. Again, nothing to do with any prophecies. Their history does not need explaining, they don't have any ties to the Royal Family except in that the Royal Family has just gotten in the way several times.
-The BCS doesn't include every villain from the series, only Alhazred, Mordack and, Manannan. Manannan didn't steal Alex for any particular reason except that he was a wicked cruel bastard. The other villains are just plain old fashioned evil people who have no tie to any other bad guy and whose only aim/motivation is pure and simple to be evil/get power/etc. No complexities.
You don't want to turn the Black Cloak Society into the "Starcon" of the KQ series---an albatross around the series, restricting possible stories.
Is to reveal Shadrack. His character should be limited to that game, and that game only, and defeated... If he makes token references to characters/events from previous games, it should only be to Mordack, and Abdul Alhazred alone. As that is the limits of his references in KQ6.
Manannan is loose possible reference, since Shadrack probably would have known him through his meetings iwth Mordack, as Manannan the cat was living on the island with him, and its likely that Abdul Alhazred knew about Manannan as well. But still those references should be limited.
Shadrack should have his own plot, that a hero would foil... In a nice stand alone sort of way, with actual closure (no open ended cliffhangers).
In no way do I want to see a retread of 'every villain' in the series is a member of the Black Cloaks... It might even be interesting if Mordack isn't a member... That the organization is seperate entity but have had interactions with the dark Wizard in the past....
Also Shadrack need not be the 'leader of the organization'.... But just an equal to people like Abdul Alhazred. A twist would be that Abdul actually was the leader!
No surprise twists like that. Let's not go into M. Night Shmyalan territory.
In a future official game, we could hear from Shadrack about how the 'society collapsed' after their leader Abdul was defeated, and captured! Thus you get rid of any chance of a complicated, bring out a "Black Cloak' of the week style plots... Shadrack will be left to stand on his own ground, as an unaffiliated villain!
Considering that Alexander lived a very sheltered life, it is possible for him to be smitten and stalker obsessed over Cassima after just one meeting. The KQ games are also fairytale games, so it is possible. In fairytales, it is common for two characters fall in love quickly. For instance, the prince married Cinderella after realizing the glass slipper belongs to her; they only met once before.
I have a harder time believing that Alexander can swim.
Sure, just look how Alexander looked at the barmaid when he first saw her! Also how he was eying his own sister! Basically he liked her smooth, clean white skin, rosy lips, he has to avert his eyes from her breasts. It basically says he'd basically jump her, if she wasn't her sister... I kid you not, the narrator gets pretty specific! (let's not forget the bit where Rosella tells him to undress in front of him so she can check out his ass! Seriously he was probably working really hard to hide his "rising" shame)
Well he can... live with it! Maybe he was taught to swim when he was a little baby (many parents do teach their children to swim as infants). It's something babies learn, and it just sticks with them.
Considering he was kidnapped by the lake near the walls of Castle Daventry, maybe that's what his parents were doing at the time,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZX5injL-NA&feature=related
I'd have a harder time believing an infant would make an effective 'slave',
KQ5 is a bit of Sin Bad, a bit of Return of the King, a bit of Fantasia, a bit of Merlin/Arthur, a bit of 40 Thieves, a bit of Jack the Giant Killer (evil wizard on a weird twisted island), etc.
my point exactly. Alexander had never seen a women before, so it is natural for him to be the obsessive and clingy type when it comes to women.
Haha! That made me laugh! Lol
I can imagine his parents letting him swim in the moat with the moat monster. Haha
didn't you know that he had the cat take care of and teach Alexander the ways of infant labor? Lol
Think it's kind of odd that some the cyan/light blue actually seems to fit better composition-wise than the dark blue, which seems a bit crazy rich/heavy looking. Someone ought to try to reproduce that hat with blue dye made from approximations of the plants found in Daventry... Or does the hat have a backstory I don't remember.. hmm