Even though I chimed in earlier before Jake posted, I just wanted to say that unlike several people here that I don't necessarily resent Telltale nor am I trying to whine. I think that they are very skilled in what they do and most of their choices that are critically panned are deliberate (removing puzzles, focus on story over gameplay, etc). As I said earlier, it's just that even though story is important to Telltale, it should not be considered a main gameplay point no matter how good it is. Similarly to what RAnthonyMahan said, I'm also just expressing my views because I am concerned about how Telltale is portraying their future game releases and design philosophy amongst the success of the Walking Dead, and how they are applying what worked in one game into other games which may not work as effectively.
I think that Telltale needs to learn to adapt multiple audiences not only from a perspective of franchise choice, but also from gameplay choice. Why not use what you have learned from the best of both worlds? Why can't Sam and Max/Monkey Island/Strong Bad/etc coexist along Walking Dead and Telltale's future endeavors? Coming from a fan of the long story over the season as opposed to Telltale's past method of self contained episodes, why can't both coexist based on the franchise?
I still like Telltale, and as long as they don't move entirely to Jurassic Park/Waling Dead type games (even though I liked Walking Dead), they will still have me as a fan. Like I said in my first post, Telltale just needs to accept that casual/mainstream gamers will not know immediately how to apply abstract point and click adventure logic to games, but that does not mean that Telltale can't take what works best with adventure gameplay, apply a twist that not only works with the franchise but also is understandable to its fans without being patronizingly easy, and remove what doesn't work from point and click adventure games from that particular license? I feel that Telltale would be in a better place if they did so for several reasons. Casual gamers would understand the game logic better, puzzles would be able to have higher difficulty and still be fun without driving players away, and adventure gamers would not feel like they get the short end of the stick. This doesn't guarantee that Telltale would increase difficulty nowadays, but I think that they were driven to this point in the first place from Wallace and Gromit's low sales and the high success of Back to the Future and The Walking Dead with their extremely easy puzzles.
I'm grateful that a Telltale member talked to us, and I don't intend to lynch him for expressing his views. I would ideally like to give feedback in an environment that he would be able to talk to us and there would be no insulting each other, but I don't suppose we will be getting that.
I made a gigantic (and I mean gigantic!) post and the forums ate it when I went to preview it. Dang. It was so well detailed and explained everything. I took the past 75 minutes or so writing it. It replied to many of Jake's points in thoughtful ways (I'd like to think), told the story of my perspective of Telltale in the passed 7 years, and it ended on a content and peaceful note of revelation on my part, all of which this meager (but probably much more readable) post could never do justice.
Basically, I realized that Telltale Games are in the gaming business for telling tales. That's it. And as much as they've used the term "adventure" over and over, they're definition of adventure was never mine. Ever. I thought that when Sam & Max season one first came out that it would get better over time. Ease people back into adventures again. But instead it went in the other direction. Whatever. That's what's popular now, apparently. I accept that. While you, Jake, call the whole tree "adventure" with its many branches and offshoots, I call only the trunk. It's this miscommunication and different perspective of the word that has led to my frustrations over the passed 7 years of my being a Telltale fan. They've gone continually downhill over time and I couldn't understand why. Now I know they will never be what I always wanted them to be.
With that, I'll hang around here until the new forums and website are up and then I'll probably wander off in search of another community of adventurers who share my perspective on the definition. Not in a malicious or resentful way, it's just that what I'm looking for is just not here. You'll get no more rants from me. Peace.
I made a gigantic (and I mean gigantic!) post and the forums ate it when I went to preview it. Dang. It was so well detailed and explained everything. I took the past 75 minutes or so writing it.
Damn. Hate when stuff like that happens. If your response is that big, make sure you copy it in future before hitting post, especially if it's in a popular thread.
I like old Telltale games, and I understand that they're going in a different direction with their newer ones, but that doesn't mean I have to play them. I just hope their future games are a return to the older style they did. There's nothing stopping them, after all, from having different gameplay styles for different titles.
If they do King's Quest (a little info on that to say if you still are would be nice, TT!), I think everyone would be up in arms if it weren't traditional point and click, for example. But that doesn't mean ALL their games have to play in exactly the same way.
It's about matching gameplay with subject matter. QTEs and character moments worked well for TWD, and possibly Fables, but I guess we'll have to see what they have in store before we make definitive comments.
For one thing, I can't take someone named ryannumber1gamer seriously, and neither can anyone else. Second, I appreciate Jake actually trying to talk to us.
I made a gigantic (and I mean gigantic!) post and the forums ate it when I went to preview it. Dang. It was so well detailed and explained everything. I took the past 75 minutes or so writing it. It replied to many of Jake's points in thoughtful ways (I'd like to think), told the story of my perspective of Telltale in the passed 7 years, and it ended on a content and peaceful note of revelation on my part, all of which this meager (but probably much more readable) post could never do justice.
I am sorry your post got deleted. You always take the time to write very thoughtful comments, and you definitely know your stuff. I would have liked to have read your comment. Don't let people accuse you of "whining" or "being resentful" when you express your opinion about what you enjoy about adventure games. Say it proud! Using mocking, loaded language like "whining" is just a way to dismiss opposing opinions and to characterize them as not worth taking seriously. It was clear you weren't asking Telltale for anything, but were rather simply expressing your unhappiness about their non-adventure game direction and their attempts to portray their lessened focus on puzzles as a so-called "evolution" of the genre, when it is really an abandonment of adventure games.
I know that, when I express my own thoughts about the newer Telltale games, I am not asking Telltale for anything. Goodness knows they are terrible about interacting with customers and adventure game fans on these forums, anyway. The only thing I want is for Telltale to lose the KQ license, if they haven't already. This is not out of malice. I wish them the best, but I also wish Activison would let another developer that actually loves and is passionate about adventure games create a new KQ.
Originally Posted by Secret Fawful
For one thing, I can't take someone named ryannumber1gamer seriously, and neither can anyone else. Second, I appreciate Jake actually trying to talk to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Fawful
EDIT: And seriously, ryan, get a new name. I hate numbers and words that slur together in names. It's UGLY.
What exactly does this have to do with this thread?
Good question. That one said its brain hurt when it had to read someone disagreeing with a Telltale rep, so I am not surprised to see those other comments.
I think that Telltale needs to learn to adapt multiple audiences not only from a perspective of franchise choice, but also from gameplay choice. Why not use what you have learned from the best of both worlds? Why can't Sam and Max/Monkey Island/Strong Bad/etc coexist along Walking Dead and Telltale's future endeavors? Coming from a fan of the long story over the season as opposed to Telltale's past method of self contained episodes, why can't both coexist based on the franchise?
I agree, there is no reason Telltale should stick to only one type of games. I have no objection to other games being made, I just want some new point and click adventures... with puzzles and all.
The reason people are asking this from you should be obvious - you made some fantastic adventure games including Tales of Monkey Island (which is maybe the best of all) and Sam and Max (all 3 seasons, although I personally like seasons 1 and 2 better). All we ask is for more of the stuff we love, more of your great games (in other words - I want to be able to throw my money at you).
From lurking in these forums for a long time it seems that I am not the only one who wants this, nor are we a minority. A game once a year would be great (and of course not restricting to a specific title, variety is a good thing though I would love to see Tales 2 with all the difficulties involved in getting permission).
This thread, it's almost comical. I could practically make a rage comic out of it. It would probably go something like this:
Panel 1:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!! Telltale was so much better when the employees posted more!
Panel 2:
Telltale Employee: Hello, everyone! I'm here to answer all of your questions in a polite way that is also clear!
Fans: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!
Panel 3:
Fans: Y no TTG employees on the forum?!!!!!
The opportunity to read posts like the one Alcoremortis made above is one of the reasons why I stick around here.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be hateful, and I know I can get adventure games elsewhere, sometimes even for free. I'm just saying that Telltale has been moving away from the games that appeal to me, and more toward easier games aimed at a mass market crowd, because that's where the money is.
LucasArts tried that, moving away from their awesome point-and-click adventures and more into Star Wars shooter things, and look where they wound up. Their founder walked away with four billion dollars.
And that, by its very nature, clashes completely with the very definition of the word "adventure", which is all about discovery, exploration, and experimentation.
[...]
I think people confuse the term "adventure" with the genre "Adventure".
I don't think anyone would ever say the Walking Dead was trying to touch the space '90s adventure games occupy, but I still personally consider it an adventure game. I might have a wider definition than other people, but I don't know what I can do about that.
I completely agree and I do think of TWD as an adventure game. Maybe even an exemplary one. Fact is, everyone has her/his own definition of the genre. There's no fixed definition. A person might define adventure games as "those games I like", then rule out TWD by that definition alone. The adventure genre was never defined by "puzzles" in the same way the RPG is defined by character stats.
The discussion whether TWD was an "adventure" or not is completely fruitless. I wish people would instead focus on what they liked or didn't like about Telltale's last game.
I think it comes down to the fact that I believe there is more going on in the Walking Dead than an interactive movie, or a choose your own adventure novel. I don't think it has simply removed the puzzles and concentrated on flashy story.
And again, I completely agree. The "just not an adventure game anymore" standpoint impairs the community's ability to actively communicate pro's and con's of Telltale's last game to an absurd degree. I believe TWD tried to shift the interaction of the player to human relationships and, if you'd like to interpret it that way, aims to deliver a "psychological puzzle" for the player. Although I can still not relate at all to the franchise, the basic idea kept me going after episode one. The mechanics and their complexity, however, haven't even remotely played out to my satisfaction.
People say puzzles ruin pacing, as if adventure games are like movies. As if GAMES ARE LIKE MOVIES. They aren't.
Thanks for real arguments, Fawful. We really needed them here. How about a few more?
I do think the feeling of control and choice, of the player's own pace, is fundamentally important for the level of immersion. There might be sequences where things are moving fast, but on the whole, I'm not too interested in a game where I'm surprised and even bored by sudden breaks in the narrative.
I don't believe it's possible to "evolve" adventures because any "evolution" would turn them into something they're inherently not.
Video game genres always evolve, and adventures have evolved quite a bit since the first Adventure that was released in 1976/1977. They went from text to static graphics with Mystery House, then to full graphics with direct control characters and text parsers with King's Quest, to full mouse control with Deja Vu and Maniac Mansion. Maniac Mansion already got rid of at least one of Adventure's standard features - points. So, it wasn't just a cosmetic change, but a gameplay change too.
Games like Beyond Zork and Quest for Glory melded gameplay styles from other genres (and it's not out of place since the original Adventure itself already did this as it had fighting).
Games like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade brought in the dialog tree which would later become a common staple. Then came The Secret of Monkey Island which instituted the rule most of LucasArts' adventures followed from then on - not being able to die and no dead ends.
Games like Grim Fandango and The Longest Journey brought the genre into the third dimension with 3D characters on pre-rendered backgrounds.
Then games like Telltale's early adventures (from Out from Boneville to Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People) brought a point and click interface to a full 3D engine (with 3D characters and 3D backgrounds), and games like Wallace & Gromit's Grand Adventures and Tales of Monkey Island brought a direct control (and/or mouse control) option to the characters.
The Walking Dead streamlined the inventory and dialog system by putting both options into the same interface.
And The Cave streamlined it even more by having the inventory system consist of only one item at a time per character.
All of these games have two things in common: an inventory a story (thanks MusicallyInspired for the correction ) and puzzles to solve (it doesn't matter how hard the puzzles are, just that they're there [difficulty doesn't matter when defining genres, that distinction falls upon sub-genres]). That's really the basis of what makes a game an adventure, since the genre's slowly evolved over the last (almost) 40 years and those are the only constant.
It's interesting that you bring up The Cave, Jennifer, since it makes a good example of what I mean about experimentation.
Point-and-click adventures, for the most part, are very restrictive to the player when compared to other genres. Ron Gilbert wondered if there was a different way to do it, so he decided to make an adventure game with a more engaging control scheme. And so we got The Cave, a platformer/point-and-click hybrid.
Personally, while I liked The Cave's writing, and the puzzles were (mostly) decent, the backtracking was pretty frustrating and I found myself spending a lot of time thinking it would be better as a normal point-and-click adventure. Still, it shows off the idea of experimenting ways to do things differently. Look closely at what you have already. Find something you don't like. If you got rid of X and did Y instead, would it be better? If not, why not? If you improved on Y's problems and did Z, would it be better than X? You get the idea.
It's true, puzzles and inventory are the fundamentals for the adventure genre (oh, I think I see what you mean by that comment, yeah the puzzles don't have to be hard, they just have to be there. Difficulty doesn't matter when defining genres, that distinction would fall to the sub-genres). There are many sub-genres of adventures (which I think is what people are getting confused about). In fact, there are tons of them (way too many sub-genres/combinations to list). Even just breaking it down to point-and-click and text adventures wouldn't work, as there's tons of sub-genres beyond that too.
I actually find the amount of diversity in the adventure genre quite fascinating (and not surprising considering it has a history almost as old as the personal computer itself).
Thanks for real arguments, Fawful. We really needed them here. How about a few more?
Are you being sarcastic, or an asshole. I've made some pretty in-depth arguments, or are you just ignoring them because it's Fawful durr durr durr he's an idiot. If you think that what I'm really trying to do in here is throw shit around and cause trouble, ultimately, then remove my motherfucking profile. Remove me from the fucking forum. Because I don't care at this point. I have my opinion set, and it's based on common sense. I'm fighting for the ability to hold a fucking normal conversation around here for once. Because I'd love that. I'd love to sit around and not throw the blame, or single people out. But since everyone else wants to do it, I can't very well do that.
Good question. That one said its brain hurt when it had to read someone disagreeing with a Telltale rep, so I am not surprised to see those other comments.
You make my brain hurt because your posts are angry and venomous and make real discussion impossible. I said I don't agree with Telltale multiple times, but your head can't contemplate that someone might not have such a black and white view of things. Now I'm angry and venomous. Thanks for spreading your disgusting disease.
Jennifer, you pretty much made my point for me. Except, what I had said was that adventures are made up of puzzles and story, not inventory. They were both always ALWAYS the focus and always the constant. All through the years from text adventures all the way down to the 3D P&C's (as lite as they are). Now Telltale are saying that they're doing something much more drastic than ever was done before. They're trying to shift the focus off of puzzles entirely and point it directly to story alone. I just don't agree with this view. Maybe it doesn't matter to others whether the puzzles are difficult or not, but it does to me. Like I said in my second post, I realize that what Telltale does is just not what I'm looking for. And I'm happy to leave it at that. I want a gaming experience that focuses on puzzles just as much as story. My definition of adventure doesn't fit with theirs, or many others here either it seems. And that's ok. I will move on. Whatever this new form of puzzle-less "adventure" is, I don't like it and I want no part of it.
Man, I really wish that ginormous post I had made had not been eaten by Mr. V. Bulletin.
Your definition isn't the be all and end all you know. And calling them "adventure" games like that is just plain insulting. Like if someone described what you do as "work". It is possible for one thing to mean many things without each harming the other in anyway. If all you're looking for is hard puzzles then it's a wonder you've ever been happy here as that is something Telltale have never really done.
Games like Back to the Future & Jurassic Park have been lambasted on this site, rightly or wrongly, but the end result of those games has been the Walking Dead which has been a huge success however you describe it. It shows the ability to learn from mistakes and how Telltale are making a name for themselves for doing what they are good at and that success shouldn't belittled. Fine you're not a fan of this path but don't act like it's new nor should you attempt to shame them for enjoying the successes of their design philosophy.
Weeeeeeee! Keep throwing the blame around! Keep insulting each other's opinions! That's right! Let's all do it! I'll do it! You'll do it! Let's all do it, like the sheep that we all are.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nobody is valid! Only I am valid! I'm not valid! Only you are valid! Don't do this! Don't do that!
God, I'm a tool by doing it! I'm a tool for trying to argue, and I didn't even realize it. This isn't how things should work, but HELL if I've got a better solution. Maybe reasonable conversation is impossible. Let's change it to arguments! Let's get mad at each other! Let's get paranoid and take everything personally! I'll go first! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Baaa! Baaaa! I'll be the black sheep! AHAHAHAHA!
Intelligent discussion doesn't exist! We're all apes! Pierre Boulle was right!
EDIT: I don't think anyone is really a sheep, I'm just exhausted by this whole thing and also the fact I'm handicapped by being me.
Wow, there are some strong opinions here. I'll try to be as brief as possible with mine.
Let me start by saying that I love Telltale Games, it's one of my favourite developers. While initially I became interested in their products because they were the traditional point and click, I also believe that change can be a good thing, especially where narrative-driven games like theirs is concerned. I think that as long as they make the puzzle structure and the gameplay style fit whatever atmosphere they are trying to convey, they will be enjoyable and interesting games. Monkey Island/Sam & Max need the thinking-out-of-the-box puzzles to convey the level of humor that is expected of them, whereas The Waking Dead meshes well with the more streamlined interface equipped with quick decision-making. As long as Telltale manages to find the right fit for different IPs, their games will be of good quality, and so far they haven't disappointed me.
P.S. I should also mention that I respect the opinions of anyone on this forum, and I don't consider anyone who doesn't share my opinion or those of whatever the norm is to be a "sheep" that's just silly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I admire those who state theirs in the face of possible backlash, I have no need to light any torches or arm myself with a pitchfork
I used to get pretty up in arms about Telltale's shift into cinematic gaming, but at the same time I'm really happy for their success. No seriously, it's weird but sweet seeing people in the mainstream praising and loving a game made by the company that used to be that little niche company that only I had an interest in.
I think the reason why I'm not too nonplussed about how Walking Dead turned out vs BTTF is that BTTF was set up more along the lines of the traditional Telltale adventure game style. In that light, it was a pretty terrible game when you got down to gameplay. In the long run it seems like BTTF was simply the result of growing pains of Telltale's metamorphosis into this new style which is pretty far gone from what a lot of the older fans expected and want. Walking Dead, which took its own new direction, turned out to be really strong in this outcome.
Even though everybody at Telltale is no doubt older than me and I have absolutely no control over the company, I feel like a parent letting a child grow up into their own independent self.
I was introduced to Telltale by having played the free episode of Sam and Max on Steam back in 2007 or 2008, and have been a fan since. Regardless of Telltale focusing more on adventure gamers or cinematic games, most of my concern is just coming from the fact that Telltale is assuming that what worked for one license will work for other licenses which are vastly different. Even though I did not like games such as Jurassic Park, I'm very glad Telltale made them because they took the experience of making that game in stride and made their future games such as the Walking Dead that much better.
My long post wasn't out of anger about Telltale going "cinematic," it was just about my concern that what worked for Walking Dead may not work the same for Fables. Looking back on previous big decisions for Telltale, even though they were more well received, it seems that Telltale often assumes what works for one situation will work for many, and that has both helped and hurt Telltale in various instances. Telltale moved from self contained episodes to season long plots because episodes four and five of Sam and Max Season 2 were interconnected, and well received because of it. Telltale's decision to move to season long plots worked out for the better, and they have used it ever since. As a matter of fact, I even prefer the season long plots compared to self contained episodes. I can't blame Telltale for moving towards more Walking Dead inspired interactions for future games, but it's worrying that Telltale may come across a situation where one type of gameplay or type of story would have suited a game better than something else.
As I said earlier, Telltale needs to take a more unique approach for each license they work with. I think this could be solved simply by having Telltale split up their work efforts into multiple groups and continue to dabble with what made them great in the past in addition to what made them great now. Additionally, they also need to focus more on extracting what works with adventure games and applying it to their own effort rather than watering down classic point and click adventure gameplay and ticking off classic adventure gamers while nevertheless confusing casual gamers for one reason or another.
Most of the pessimism about Telltale, I believe, is based in the fact that they are currently choosing only to work with dramatic licenses and games. This isn't bad, of course, but many evidently feel it gives off the impression that they have abandoned adventure gamers entirely due to focusing only on the new audience instead of also focusing on their previous audiences. Had Telltale worked on Sam and Max or Monkey Island alongside the Walking Dead today, I don't believe they would have made either of those two games a "cinematic" QTE fest. As I said, most of the concern from fans originates from the fact that Telltale only moves on to what their "big thing" currently is, instead of focusing on past successes as well. In this case, I think many feel that Telltale is giving off the impression they blew off classic adventure fans due to Telltale's lack of communication outside of when they are almost ready to release a game.
Even though I have been a fan of Telltale for several years, I mostly lurked until after Poker Night was released, which is a shame because it sounds like I missed what was Telltale's community in its prime. Nevertheless, I'm happy for Telltale as long as they don't repeat mistakes with "cinematic" games consistently.
Now Telltale are saying that they're doing something much more drastic than ever was done before. They're trying to shift the focus off of puzzles entirely and point it directly to story alone.
We'll have to wait and see, of course. To me, Dan's comment doesn't look like they're talking about elminating puzzles completely, since he says "less of" instead of "move it to" or "get rid of". It seems more like they're looking at a streamlining process, like in The Walking Dead or The Cave.
Your definition isn't the be all and end all you know. And calling them "adventure" games like that is just plain insulting. Like if someone described what you do as "work". It is possible for one thing to mean many things without each harming the other in anyway. If all you're looking for is hard puzzles then it's a wonder you've ever been happy here as that is something Telltale have never really done.
Games like Back to the Future & Jurassic Park have been lambasted on this site, rightly or wrongly, but the end result of those games has been the Walking Dead which has been a huge success however you describe it. It shows the ability to learn from mistakes and how Telltale are making a name for themselves for doing what they are good at and that success shouldn't belittled. Fine you're not a fan of this path but don't act like it's new nor should you attempt to shame them for enjoying the successes of their design philosophy.
Wow. You clearly missed my entire point. Probably did a quick skim of my post instead of actually reading it through too. I never once said that my definition was the be-all and end-all. In fact I said the exact opposite. I even went as far as to say that I'm at peace with the fact that Telltale are doing something I'm just not interested in and that's ok. I realize that my definition isn't shared by everybody and I'm not shaming Telltale for doing something I am not interested in. In fact, I literally said "more power to you" to Jake (or was that in the gigantic post I made that died?). I literally simply stated that I realized that what I was looking for in Telltale is just not there so this is not the place for me anymore. And perhaps it never was. How in the world did you get any other impression from what I said? (if you even actually read it)
In case you're still missing it here's a clue: I've got nothing against Telltale or anybody else here and I don't think I'm better than anybody else. Is that good enough? Go lynch somebody else.
Weeeeeeee! Keep throwing the blame around! Keep insulting each other's opinions! That's right! Let's all do it! I'll do it! You'll do it! Let's all do it, like the sheep that we all are.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nobody is valid! Only I am valid! I'm not valid! Only you are valid! Don't do this! Don't do that!
God, I'm a tool by doing it! I'm a tool for trying to argue, and I didn't even realize it. This isn't how things should work, but HELL if I've got a better solution. Maybe reasonable conversation is impossible. Let's change it to arguments! Let's get mad at each other! Let's get paranoid and take everything personally! I'll go first! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Baaa! Baaaa! I'll be the black sheep! AHAHAHAHA!
Intelligent discussion doesn't exist! We're all apes! Pierre Boulle was right!
No kidding. Can we all stop jumping to conclusions and accusing each other please? Some of us (few) are trying to have actual conversation here.
Well it may not have been your intent but it sure came across like that - by that I mean dismissive of what Telltale are doing, especially with the oft repeated "adventure", the sarcasm just drips from it. But you are still very quick to dismiss what I'm saying by insinuating that I never even read it properly and I'm offended by that. And also the whole post wasn't just aimed at you, though I'm not surprised that you seem to think so. Some points were but the rest of it was trying to be a general addition to this debate.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I try to respect people's opinions but I do get annoyed when it seems that other people aren't being as respectful, in this instance to the people working for Telltale. I'm not as good as some at getting my point across, I'm just trying to say what I'm feeling about this.
I've been screwing everything up by getting mad and letting my emotions get the better of me. I'm going to rationally try again.
First: I apologize to MntPeak, Vainamoinen, and ryannumber1gamer. I went about everything wrong here by pushing my ideals for the conversation. So I'm going to try something else.
I'm sorry for being a pushy asshole, and for screaming.
I ask you to put your anger away. Not your criticism, not your opinions, and not even your frustration. I just ask that you put your anger away. I ask that you stop, calm yourselves, and reply in a rational, calm manner. You know, the opposite of mine.
And then stop, and think about whether or not you're about to make your point about the games, your frustrations, Telltale, or each other. Cancel out the part that is about each other. Just completely cancel it out. Keep your points to the subject at hand. I'm going to stop blaming all of you. I'm going to stop making this about all of you. I'm going to stop making it about me. This is about Telltale's design philosophy.
And now I'll make a new point. Telltale should be open to criticism by reasoned, calm people. They shouldn't consider their way the end all, be all. As creative minds, they should be open to criticism. I think?
I say that, but then questions start swirling around in my head.
What if they did do everything we wanted?
Would they still be creating their way?
Would their personal creativity exist?
Would the games be better?
Would we be satisfied?
What does "improving" mean?
Is there a height of perfection they can improve toward?
Is there a height of perfection they can evolve toward?
What if there isn't?
Maybe we're all looking at it the wrong way. Maybe we're using the wrong terms.
Maybe what I call improving is actually just adding this or that and feeling better about myself? Innovation is doing something nobody has done before?
What's the point of sticking with the same old thing? What's the point of changing, if you aren't going toward a real goal. Jake said it's like a tree. Well, where's that tree branching off to? Will it ever end? Will it just keep branching and branching? Sounds infinite to me. I don't want to be just another branch. I just want to make a great adventure game, and I want to see other people do it too. Telltale don't wan do dat. What should the adventure game do or be?
I dunno. Nothing makes sense. If I think about it any more, I'll go mad. I don't have any answers. I just want everyone to be nice, and I want to go do something else.
Although it is quite a mess in here, I'd like to give my two cents regarding Telltale's plans with their future games.
I have been a fan of Telltale for quite a few years now, and some way or another gotten my hands on a good chunk of their games. (Steam Sales, Preorder bonuses, what have you.) I can't say I'm much of an Adventure Game Veteran like most of the folks here, though I think I can fall into the Telltale Veteran category. It's great to see Telltale exploring different kinds of things an areas of gaming, and also good to see them tapping into a new set of fans.
Though it brings up a problem with Telltale, one that has been recurring for many years now. The problem being that whenever Telltale has a successful, or what they believe to be successful, model that worked for Game X it will work just as well for Game Y. That is not at all the case, The Walking Dead's model worked because it created characters you cared about and gave an emphasize more on choice and story; and that's essentially what the idea of the Walking Dead franchise is.
That same idea may work pretty well for a license like Fables but what about one like King's Quest? The premise of King's Quest it to find inconceivable solutions to very obscure puzzles in a bizarre fashion. Sure it would be cool to see what King's Quest would be like with an interesting backstory, but it's not what King's Quest was known for. Even if King's Quest turns out to be a "true blue" adventure game, who's to say they won't automatically go back to Walking Dead's formula for other new franchises, instead of the "true blue" Adventure Game formula.
I guess to sum this all up, the point I'm trying to make is don't sacrifice what makes the franchise good to reach a broader audience because it worked in another game of yours. I still think you should focus in the story-telling department but give the puzzle and gameplay department an equal amount of love. Sure puzzles in games or puzzle games in general may not be everyone's cup of tea, though expanding on what makes it good for some and how it could be made better for others should be taken into consideration instead of scrapping it all together.
The only one I had an issue with in Hit the Road was the Max puzzle in the Tunnel of Love. It's like the monkey wrench puzzle in Monkey Island 2, there's no real clue telling you what to do (
sure the fusebox was sparking, but I never would have thought to use Max's head in the fuse box if it wasn't for random inventory trial and error
The only one I had an issue with in Hit the Road was the Max puzzle in the Tunnel of Love. It's like the monkey wrench puzzle in Monkey Island 2, there's no real clue telling you what to do (
sure the fusebox was sparking, but I never would have thought to use Max's head in the fuse box if it wasn't for random inventory trial and error
).
Eh, different feelings and all that. It's the first puzzle I think of from the game, next to the golf game, and my favorite. Once the scene between Max and the cat in the beginning happened, to me, that set up all Max interactions after. Max was usually the first thing I used on something odd.
They only make sense in that they're supposed to not make sense. They're supposed to be nonsensical. That doesn't make the puzzles good, but merely makes watching the solutions performed mildly amusing.
And the characters are in no way memorable other than Sam & Max themselves. Well, maybe Conroy Bumpus, but only because he's
the bad guy
, and that's it.
TTG's Sam & Max games actually allow Max to be playable at times, and makes many characters in their world memorable--some even infamous and reviled among the fanbase. They have the same style of humor that Hit the Road does, and the stories aren't completely stupid. Convoluted, yes--but not stupid like Hit the Road's story is.
It sounds like what you're trying to say is that, as it annoys you greatly that TTG has moved away from making adventure games, that their earlier games which do belong to the adventure game genre automatically suck by default.
Certainly they have their problems--bugs and reused character models among them--but that doesn't make them bad games, and especially not compared to the, albeit humorous, mediocrity that is Hit the Road.
They only make sense in that they're supposed to not make sense. They're supposed to be nonsensical. That doesn't make the puzzles good, but merely makes watching the solutions performed mildly amusing.
And the characters are in no way memorable other than Sam & Max themselves. Well, maybe Conroy Bumpus, but only because he's
the bad guy
, and that's it.
TTG's Sam & Max games actually allow Max to be playable at times, and makes many characters in their world memorable--some even infamous and reviled among the fanbase. They have the same style of humor that Hit the Road does, and the stories aren't completely stupid. Convoluted, yes--but not stupid like Hit the Road's story is.
It sound like what you're trying to say is that, as it annoys you greatly that TTG has moved away from making adventure games, that their earlier games which do belong to the adventure game genre automatically suck by default.
Certainly they have their problems--bugs and reused character models among them--but that doesn't make them bad games, and especially not compared to the, albeit humorous, mediocrity that is Hit the Road.
I didn't say...I love Telltales earlier g- screw me, I'm out of here before I lose it big time.
Telltale's Sam & Max games barely have coherent stories. Season 3 is the only one that had a solid story, and even that felt awkward and disconnected compared to the much tighter stories of pretty much every Lucasarts game (including Hit the Road.) The only reason anyone could even argue that Telltale Sam & Max supporting characters are "memorable" (sarcastic quotes used on purpose) are because Telltale uses the same characters in every season, like clockwork--we've seen them in three times as many games as the characters from Hit the Road. By the way, I'd take Bruno, Trixie, Conroy, et al, any day over Sybil, Bosco, (ugh--what a horrible and painfully unfunny character), etc. Bosco is especially bad, too, because he's a character you're never supposed to actually SEE. That's what makes the Bosco sequences from the comics and from Hit the Road actually funny. Hit the Road was such a beautiful mesh of themes and gags from the existing comics, whereas Telltale's games feel pulled more from the watered down (and quite a bit more random and less consistently funny) Saturday morning cartoon.
Tales is good--I really do like it. Easily Telltale's best game. But it doesn't hold a candle to MI1, 2, or Curse. I do like it better than Escape though, so I'll give you that. The story just isn't as good. The jokes aren't as funny. And we won't even talk puzzles and exploration factor.
I just have to think that either Telltale's writers just can't hit the same beats as the glory days of Lucasarts storytelling and humor, or that the episodic format itself is the limiting (and lessening) factor. Certainly the episodic format is a big part of the reason Telltale's Sam & Max games feel so much more random and incoherent (and more like Saturday morning cartoon episodes.) They really just bore me to tears.
Neither. I think you've made a good point back there.
I've absolutely no anger towards you, but I do have some anger towards the direction of this conversation.
As you yourself have said, Telltale should be open to criticism. But look at this thread and you see that people just lose themselves in defining the adventure genre instead of actually delivering valid personal criticism of the Walking Dead game. They're trying to define adventure game just to press their personal standards on their favorite video game company.
Some people in here are now in the process of defining "adventure", and I've read about 300 pages of those heated attempts in German forums already. Just wait until they recognize on page 217 that they'll have to define "puzzles" as well, that'll be the huge step forward!
I insist that this gets you nowhere, and this is the only frustration that I have here.
Those who didn't like TWD will have to think about WHY they did not. "It wasn't an adventure game" and "there weren't many puzzles" is not an answer to that question. I can just plead once more that such definitions do not help.
"I generally felt a loss of control/immersion/interactivity because the game mostly ran along at its own pace", THAT I considered one of many answers, one that could be elaborated on in quite some detail.
Yes, it is, absolutely. And there is integrity in that philosophy in TWD. Back to the Future, to me, felt like an adventure game that was cut every time it could have felt too problematic for the player. And you really, really saw those wounds. TWD was complete, a whole game, an executed concept from start to finish. So I can criticize the conscious design decisions.
They shouldn't consider their way the end all, be all.
I don't think they do. I really, really don't think they do. Sure it gets frustrating when the third major game in a row isn't something you can connect with. But that doesn't mean they never listen to their fans.
They would make awful games. You just KNOW I'm right. Firstly, when we get down to details, there's greatly differing opinions even among the "old school adventure society". That's why I am a bit afraid of adventure game kickstarters. Thousands of people who know nothing about game design start thinking that if only they put their thumb in the soup ("we're the publisher!"), all will be for the better, and the designers think that they might possibly "owe" it to that financially supportive community to listen to their "ideas".
Is there a height of perfection they can improve toward?
You can never say until that perfection is reached, and chances are it's only a momentary perfection. The same can be said about "real goals". Whether they're good or bad to strive after can only be determined after reaching them. If the conversational system of TWD was complex enough to actually suggest real choices and influence over characters (and if the characters did not have the tendency to suddenly die, making all those previous conversations worthless), who knows what a satisfying experience that could be? As I said, the goal could be defined as "psychological puzzle".
Video games are art. OF COURSE you only ever chose a "direction" and hope for the best about where it leads. There is no other way. Good design choices are always only classified in retrospect.
I just want to make a great adventure game, and I want to see other people do it too. Telltale don't wan do dat. What should the adventure game do or be?
That's the box you're thinking in. Strike "adventure" out of these sentences, and you might get some answers for yourself. Including the factual incorrectness of the second sentence.
Telltale's Sam & Max games barely have coherent stories. Season 3 is the only one that had a solid story, and even that felt awkward and disconnected compared to the much tighter stories of pretty much every Lucasarts game (including Hit the Road.) The only reason anyone could even argue that Telltale Sam & Max supporting characters are "memorable" (sarcastic quotes used on purpose) are because Telltale uses the same characters in every season, like clockwork--we've seen them in three times as many games as the characters from Hit the Road. By the way, I'd take Bruno, Trixie, Conroy, et al, any day over Sybil, Bosco, (ugh--what a horrible and painfully unfunny character), etc. Bosco is especially bad, too, because he's a character you're never supposed to actually SEE. That's what makes the Bosco sequences from the comics and from Hit the Road actually funny. Hit the Road was such a beautiful mesh of themes and gags from the existing comics, whereas Telltale's games feel pulled more from the watered down (and quite a bit more random and less consistently funny) Saturday morning cartoon.
Tales is good--I really do like it. Easily Telltale's best game. But it doesn't hold a candle to MI1, 2, or Curse. I do like it better than Escape though, so I'll give you that. The story just isn't as good. The jokes aren't as funny. And we won't even talk puzzles and exploration factor.
I just have to think that either Telltale's writers just can't hit the same beats as the glory days of Lucasarts storytelling and humor, or that the episodic format itself is the limiting (and lessening) factor. Certainly the episodic format is a big part of the reason Telltale's Sam & Max games feel so much more random and incoherent (and more like Saturday morning cartoon episodes.) They really just bore me to tears.
Monkey Island 2 is one of the worst games ever created.
Thanks. Now I know what I didn't like about The Walking Dead. It bored me. Once I realised how small my influence on anything was I was only going along to see the end.
And that point was fixing the swing in episode 2. After that all the program did was annoy me more and more. Still episode 2 was the best in the whole bundle. Obvious twist but I still enjoyed it.
Telltale's Sam & Max games barely have coherent stories. Season 3 is the only one that had a solid story, and even that felt awkward and disconnected compared to the much tighter stories of pretty much every Lucasarts game (including Hit the Road.) The only reason anyone could even argue that Telltale Sam & Max supporting characters are "memorable" (sarcastic quotes used on purpose) are because Telltale uses the same characters in every season, like clockwork--we've seen them in three times as many games as the characters from Hit the Road. By the way, I'd take Bruno, Trixie, Conroy, et al, any day over Sybil, Bosco, (ugh--what a horrible and painfully unfunny character), etc. Bosco is especially bad, too, because he's a character you're never supposed to actually SEE. That's what makes the Bosco sequences from the comics and from Hit the Road actually funny. Hit the Road was such a beautiful mesh of themes and gags from the existing comics, whereas Telltale's games feel pulled more from the watered down (and quite a bit more random and less consistently funny) Saturday morning cartoon.
Tales is good--I really do like it. Easily Telltale's best game. But it doesn't hold a candle to MI1, 2, or Curse. I do like it better than Escape though, so I'll give you that. The story just isn't as good. The jokes aren't as funny. And we won't even talk puzzles and exploration factor.
I just have to think that either Telltale's writers just can't hit the same beats as the glory days of Lucasarts storytelling and humor, or that the episodic format itself is the limiting (and lessening) factor. Certainly the episodic format is a big part of the reason Telltale's Sam & Max games feel so much more random and incoherent (and more like Saturday morning cartoon episodes.) They really just bore me to tears.
Oh, and as long as we're talking about Telltale's Sam and Max games, let's talk about the voices.
For Sam and Max Hit the Road, we had Bill Farmer, who brought Sam to life with an interesting fusion of Humphrey Bogart and Johnny Carson... a combo which worked! Every line of his oozed snark... plus I could sense an authoritative tone in his dialogue, which meant that he was not someone you could get away with messing with. Max was voiced by Nick Jameson, and I know I'm going to get flak for this for siding with someone who sounded "too adult". His voice sounded edgy and unfiltered, and conveyed plenty of attitude, as if to say, "I am not the weak and defenseless bunny rabbit you think I am, so do not underestimate me."
We were going to get those voices back in Freelance Police, but we all know how that went! Hopefully Lucasarts/Disney Interactive will bring them back (preferrably this year).
Now, as for the Telltale voices...
Sam, instead of being voiced by Bill Farmer, is voiced by David Nowlin. And I know people reading this are going to hate me for saying this... but I felt nothing from him. His delivery sounded so vanilla, so milquetoast. It sounded to me like he was just there.
You have not heard Nick Jameson's voice come out of Max's mouth in the current games. In Culture Shock, you heard Andrew Chaikin instead. He sounded just too whiny and annoying to me. William Kasten, who replaced him, was probably just as grating.
I know that people somehow love the new voices and would go into conniptions if Telltale were to magically remake the games so that the original voices would be brought back... but I think that Telltale should do that anyway. By doing this, I feel that it would open the doors to a market that would otherwise feel alienated. Besides, I feel that seven/eight years is long enough.
*whew* That was an amazingly long rant from me, but I felt it deserved to be said here.
I'm just saying that TTG's Sam & Max are good; I find TTG's Sam and Max to be better than Hit the Road (though HtR is also good, I just have certain minor issues with it, like how
covering the US in redwood trees in no way helps the bigfoots
; and Tales is good. They're not flawless, but they're good.
I'm trying to say that just because TTG isn't making adventure games anymore, it doesn't automatically make their older games (that are adventure games) crap by association, and I feel like that's what people here are doing.
They only make sense in that they're supposed to not make sense. They're supposed to be nonsensical. That doesn't make the puzzles good, but merely makes watching the solutions performed mildly amusing.
And the characters are in no way memorable other than Sam & Max themselves. Well, maybe Conroy Bumpus, but only because he's
the bad guy
, and that's it.
TTG's Sam & Max games actually allow Max to be playable at times, and makes many characters in their world memorable--some even infamous and reviled among the fanbase. They have the same style of humor that Hit the Road does, and the stories aren't completely stupid. Convoluted, yes--but not stupid like Hit the Road's story is.
It sounds like what you're trying to say is that, as it annoys you greatly that TTG has moved away from making adventure games, that their earlier games which do belong to the adventure game genre automatically suck by default.
Certainly they have their problems--bugs and reused character models among them--but that doesn't make them bad games, and especially not compared to the, albeit humorous, mediocrity that is Hit the Road.
I'm just saying that TTG's Sam & Max are good; I find TTG's Sam and Max to be better than Hit the Road (though HtR is also good, I just have certain minor issues with it, like how
covering the US in redwood trees in no way helps the bigfoots
; and Tales is good. They're not flawless, but they're good.
I'm trying to say that just because TTG isn't making adventure games anymore, it doesn't automatically make their older games (that are adventure games) crap by association, and I feel like that's what people here are doing.
What part of my big post that I lost said was that I was never happy with the level of "adventure" (my personal definition of adventure, that is not everybody else's, which is fine, but which I thought Telltale was trying to achieve at the time) quality in their games. I thought that Telltale were heralding the return of the great adventure tradition. I mean, after Freelance Police was canceled (for all intents and purposes, a true classic-style adventure game), Telltale announced they were bringing it BACK! Wow! It's a miracle! Adventures WILL return after all! (again, my own definition, which is ok if they or anybody else desn't share it) I mean, after all they said that many of the ideas from Freelance Police were used in Save The World. Not everything, but you can see from this example that some of us fully expected to see classic-styled adventures return through Telltale. They were all but saying it with their actions with Sam & Max. Unfortunately Season One was not really that great, in my opinion. Still I chose to enjoy it because I thought they were working their way up to it again. Easing people back into adventures. But instead of improving quality (again, my own definition), they went the other way. Tales of Monkey Island was a step back in the direction I was hoping for. They even brought item combination back into the fold, overblown and hyper-advertized, as it was in the interface, as if people wouldn't understand that you could actually combine items. That approach I felt was unnecessary. It wasn't until BTTF episode 2 that I realized that Telltale had no intention of going in that direction anymore. And it wasn't until the past recent months that I realized that Telltale NEVER INTENDED going in that direction. Now that I realize that, I'm at peace.
Point being, Telltale's games were never up to some of our standards. I probably wouldn't have stayed here on the forums if I had realized this way back when.
Also, I think Hit The Road and MI1, 2, and even 3 (with as many problems as it had) were much more enjoyable than S&M seasons 1, 2, and 3 and Tales of Monkey Island. Did I have fun with them? Sure. But it just wasn't the experience I was expecting. Which is too bad. Oh well.
Comments
I think that Telltale needs to learn to adapt multiple audiences not only from a perspective of franchise choice, but also from gameplay choice. Why not use what you have learned from the best of both worlds? Why can't Sam and Max/Monkey Island/Strong Bad/etc coexist along Walking Dead and Telltale's future endeavors? Coming from a fan of the long story over the season as opposed to Telltale's past method of self contained episodes, why can't both coexist based on the franchise?
I still like Telltale, and as long as they don't move entirely to Jurassic Park/Waling Dead type games (even though I liked Walking Dead), they will still have me as a fan. Like I said in my first post, Telltale just needs to accept that casual/mainstream gamers will not know immediately how to apply abstract point and click adventure logic to games, but that does not mean that Telltale can't take what works best with adventure gameplay, apply a twist that not only works with the franchise but also is understandable to its fans without being patronizingly easy, and remove what doesn't work from point and click adventure games from that particular license? I feel that Telltale would be in a better place if they did so for several reasons. Casual gamers would understand the game logic better, puzzles would be able to have higher difficulty and still be fun without driving players away, and adventure gamers would not feel like they get the short end of the stick. This doesn't guarantee that Telltale would increase difficulty nowadays, but I think that they were driven to this point in the first place from Wallace and Gromit's low sales and the high success of Back to the Future and The Walking Dead with their extremely easy puzzles.
I'm grateful that a Telltale member talked to us, and I don't intend to lynch him for expressing his views. I would ideally like to give feedback in an environment that he would be able to talk to us and there would be no insulting each other, but I don't suppose we will be getting that.
Not happening.
Basically, I realized that Telltale Games are in the gaming business for telling tales. That's it. And as much as they've used the term "adventure" over and over, they're definition of adventure was never mine. Ever. I thought that when Sam & Max season one first came out that it would get better over time. Ease people back into adventures again. But instead it went in the other direction. Whatever. That's what's popular now, apparently. I accept that. While you, Jake, call the whole tree "adventure" with its many branches and offshoots, I call only the trunk. It's this miscommunication and different perspective of the word that has led to my frustrations over the passed 7 years of my being a Telltale fan. They've gone continually downhill over time and I couldn't understand why. Now I know they will never be what I always wanted them to be.
With that, I'll hang around here until the new forums and website are up and then I'll probably wander off in search of another community of adventurers who share my perspective on the definition. Not in a malicious or resentful way, it's just that what I'm looking for is just not here. You'll get no more rants from me. Peace.
I like old Telltale games, and I understand that they're going in a different direction with their newer ones, but that doesn't mean I have to play them. I just hope their future games are a return to the older style they did. There's nothing stopping them, after all, from having different gameplay styles for different titles.
If they do King's Quest (a little info on that to say if you still are would be nice, TT!), I think everyone would be up in arms if it weren't traditional point and click, for example. But that doesn't mean ALL their games have to play in exactly the same way.
It's about matching gameplay with subject matter. QTEs and character moments worked well for TWD, and possibly Fables, but I guess we'll have to see what they have in store before we make definitive comments.
What exactly does this have to do with this thread?
I know that, when I express my own thoughts about the newer Telltale games, I am not asking Telltale for anything. Goodness knows they are terrible about interacting with customers and adventure game fans on these forums, anyway. The only thing I want is for Telltale to lose the KQ license, if they haven't already. This is not out of malice. I wish them the best, but I also wish Activison would let another developer that actually loves and is passionate about adventure games create a new KQ.
Good question. That one said its brain hurt when it had to read someone disagreeing with a Telltale rep, so I am not surprised to see those other comments.
I agree, there is no reason Telltale should stick to only one type of games. I have no objection to other games being made, I just want some new point and click adventures... with puzzles and all.
The reason people are asking this from you should be obvious - you made some fantastic adventure games including Tales of Monkey Island (which is maybe the best of all) and Sam and Max (all 3 seasons, although I personally like seasons 1 and 2 better). All we ask is for more of the stuff we love, more of your great games (in other words - I want to be able to throw my money at you).
From lurking in these forums for a long time it seems that I am not the only one who wants this, nor are we a minority. A game once a year would be great (and of course not restricting to a specific title, variety is a good thing though I would love to see Tales 2 with all the difficulties involved in getting permission).
The opportunity to read posts like the one Alcoremortis made above is one of the reasons why I stick around here.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be hateful, and I know I can get adventure games elsewhere, sometimes even for free. I'm just saying that Telltale has been moving away from the games that appeal to me, and more toward easier games aimed at a mass market crowd, because that's where the money is.
LucasArts tried that, moving away from their awesome point-and-click adventures and more into Star Wars shooter things, and look where they wound up. Their founder walked away with four billion dollars.
Wait, what point was I trying to make again?
And now I'm blushing! Obviously, the solution is more rage.
I think you just did.
A process previously not known in evolution, I assume. :cool:
I completely agree and I do think of TWD as an adventure game. Maybe even an exemplary one. Fact is, everyone has her/his own definition of the genre. There's no fixed definition. A person might define adventure games as "those games I like", then rule out TWD by that definition alone. The adventure genre was never defined by "puzzles" in the same way the RPG is defined by character stats.
The discussion whether TWD was an "adventure" or not is completely fruitless. I wish people would instead focus on what they liked or didn't like about Telltale's last game.
And again, I completely agree. The "just not an adventure game anymore" standpoint impairs the community's ability to actively communicate pro's and con's of Telltale's last game to an absurd degree. I believe TWD tried to shift the interaction of the player to human relationships and, if you'd like to interpret it that way, aims to deliver a "psychological puzzle" for the player. Although I can still not relate at all to the franchise, the basic idea kept me going after episode one. The mechanics and their complexity, however, haven't even remotely played out to my satisfaction.
Thanks for real arguments, Fawful. We really needed them here. How about a few more?
I do think the feeling of control and choice, of the player's own pace, is fundamentally important for the level of immersion. There might be sequences where things are moving fast, but on the whole, I'm not too interested in a game where I'm surprised and even bored by sudden breaks in the narrative.
Games like Beyond Zork and Quest for Glory melded gameplay styles from other genres (and it's not out of place since the original Adventure itself already did this as it had fighting).
Games like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade brought in the dialog tree which would later become a common staple. Then came The Secret of Monkey Island which instituted the rule most of LucasArts' adventures followed from then on - not being able to die and no dead ends.
Games like Grim Fandango and The Longest Journey brought the genre into the third dimension with 3D characters on pre-rendered backgrounds.
Then games like Telltale's early adventures (from Out from Boneville to Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People) brought a point and click interface to a full 3D engine (with 3D characters and 3D backgrounds), and games like Wallace & Gromit's Grand Adventures and Tales of Monkey Island brought a direct control (and/or mouse control) option to the characters.
The Walking Dead streamlined the inventory and dialog system by putting both options into the same interface.
And The Cave streamlined it even more by having the inventory system consist of only one item at a time per character.
All of these games have two things in common: an inventory a story (thanks MusicallyInspired for the correction
Please don't do that.
Point-and-click adventures, for the most part, are very restrictive to the player when compared to other genres. Ron Gilbert wondered if there was a different way to do it, so he decided to make an adventure game with a more engaging control scheme. And so we got The Cave, a platformer/point-and-click hybrid.
Personally, while I liked The Cave's writing, and the puzzles were (mostly) decent, the backtracking was pretty frustrating and I found myself spending a lot of time thinking it would be better as a normal point-and-click adventure. Still, it shows off the idea of experimenting ways to do things differently. Look closely at what you have already. Find something you don't like. If you got rid of X and did Y instead, would it be better? If not, why not? If you improved on Y's problems and did Z, would it be better than X? You get the idea.
I actually find the amount of diversity in the adventure genre quite fascinating (and not surprising considering it has a history almost as old as the personal computer itself).
Are you being sarcastic, or an asshole. I've made some pretty in-depth arguments, or are you just ignoring them because it's Fawful durr durr durr he's an idiot. If you think that what I'm really trying to do in here is throw shit around and cause trouble, ultimately, then remove my motherfucking profile. Remove me from the fucking forum. Because I don't care at this point. I have my opinion set, and it's based on common sense. I'm fighting for the ability to hold a fucking normal conversation around here for once. Because I'd love that. I'd love to sit around and not throw the blame, or single people out. But since everyone else wants to do it, I can't very well do that.
You make my brain hurt because your posts are angry and venomous and make real discussion impossible. I said I don't agree with Telltale multiple times, but your head can't contemplate that someone might not have such a black and white view of things. Now I'm angry and venomous. Thanks for spreading your disgusting disease.
Man, I really wish that ginormous post I had made had not been eaten by Mr. V. Bulletin.
Games like Back to the Future & Jurassic Park have been lambasted on this site, rightly or wrongly, but the end result of those games has been the Walking Dead which has been a huge success however you describe it. It shows the ability to learn from mistakes and how Telltale are making a name for themselves for doing what they are good at and that success shouldn't belittled. Fine you're not a fan of this path but don't act like it's new nor should you attempt to shame them for enjoying the successes of their design philosophy.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nobody is valid! Only I am valid! I'm not valid! Only you are valid! Don't do this! Don't do that!
God, I'm a tool by doing it! I'm a tool for trying to argue, and I didn't even realize it. This isn't how things should work, but HELL if I've got a better solution. Maybe reasonable conversation is impossible. Let's change it to arguments! Let's get mad at each other! Let's get paranoid and take everything personally! I'll go first! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Baaa! Baaaa! I'll be the black sheep! AHAHAHAHA!
Intelligent discussion doesn't exist! We're all apes! Pierre Boulle was right!
EDIT: I don't think anyone is really a sheep, I'm just exhausted by this whole thing and also the fact I'm handicapped by being me.
Let me start by saying that I love Telltale Games, it's one of my favourite developers. While initially I became interested in their products because they were the traditional point and click, I also believe that change can be a good thing, especially where narrative-driven games like theirs is concerned. I think that as long as they make the puzzle structure and the gameplay style fit whatever atmosphere they are trying to convey, they will be enjoyable and interesting games. Monkey Island/Sam & Max need the thinking-out-of-the-box puzzles to convey the level of humor that is expected of them, whereas The Waking Dead meshes well with the more streamlined interface equipped with quick decision-making. As long as Telltale manages to find the right fit for different IPs, their games will be of good quality, and so far they haven't disappointed me.
P.S. I should also mention that I respect the opinions of anyone on this forum, and I don't consider anyone who doesn't share my opinion or those of whatever the norm is to be a "sheep" that's just silly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I admire those who state theirs in the face of possible backlash, I have no need to light any torches or arm myself with a pitchfork
I think the reason why I'm not too nonplussed about how Walking Dead turned out vs BTTF is that BTTF was set up more along the lines of the traditional Telltale adventure game style. In that light, it was a pretty terrible game when you got down to gameplay. In the long run it seems like BTTF was simply the result of growing pains of Telltale's metamorphosis into this new style which is pretty far gone from what a lot of the older fans expected and want. Walking Dead, which took its own new direction, turned out to be really strong in this outcome.
Even though everybody at Telltale is no doubt older than me and I have absolutely no control over the company, I feel like a parent letting a child grow up into their own independent self.
Either way, it's been an interesting ride.
My long post wasn't out of anger about Telltale going "cinematic," it was just about my concern that what worked for Walking Dead may not work the same for Fables. Looking back on previous big decisions for Telltale, even though they were more well received, it seems that Telltale often assumes what works for one situation will work for many, and that has both helped and hurt Telltale in various instances. Telltale moved from self contained episodes to season long plots because episodes four and five of Sam and Max Season 2 were interconnected, and well received because of it. Telltale's decision to move to season long plots worked out for the better, and they have used it ever since. As a matter of fact, I even prefer the season long plots compared to self contained episodes. I can't blame Telltale for moving towards more Walking Dead inspired interactions for future games, but it's worrying that Telltale may come across a situation where one type of gameplay or type of story would have suited a game better than something else.
As I said earlier, Telltale needs to take a more unique approach for each license they work with. I think this could be solved simply by having Telltale split up their work efforts into multiple groups and continue to dabble with what made them great in the past in addition to what made them great now. Additionally, they also need to focus more on extracting what works with adventure games and applying it to their own effort rather than watering down classic point and click adventure gameplay and ticking off classic adventure gamers while nevertheless confusing casual gamers for one reason or another.
Most of the pessimism about Telltale, I believe, is based in the fact that they are currently choosing only to work with dramatic licenses and games. This isn't bad, of course, but many evidently feel it gives off the impression that they have abandoned adventure gamers entirely due to focusing only on the new audience instead of also focusing on their previous audiences. Had Telltale worked on Sam and Max or Monkey Island alongside the Walking Dead today, I don't believe they would have made either of those two games a "cinematic" QTE fest. As I said, most of the concern from fans originates from the fact that Telltale only moves on to what their "big thing" currently is, instead of focusing on past successes as well. In this case, I think many feel that Telltale is giving off the impression they blew off classic adventure fans due to Telltale's lack of communication outside of when they are almost ready to release a game.
Even though I have been a fan of Telltale for several years, I mostly lurked until after Poker Night was released, which is a shame because it sounds like I missed what was Telltale's community in its prime. Nevertheless, I'm happy for Telltale as long as they don't repeat mistakes with "cinematic" games consistently.
Wow. You clearly missed my entire point. Probably did a quick skim of my post instead of actually reading it through too. I never once said that my definition was the be-all and end-all. In fact I said the exact opposite. I even went as far as to say that I'm at peace with the fact that Telltale are doing something I'm just not interested in and that's ok. I realize that my definition isn't shared by everybody and I'm not shaming Telltale for doing something I am not interested in. In fact, I literally said "more power to you" to Jake (or was that in the gigantic post I made that died?). I literally simply stated that I realized that what I was looking for in Telltale is just not there so this is not the place for me anymore. And perhaps it never was. How in the world did you get any other impression from what I said? (if you even actually read it)
In case you're still missing it here's a clue: I've got nothing against Telltale or anybody else here and I don't think I'm better than anybody else. Is that good enough? Go lynch somebody else.
No kidding. Can we all stop jumping to conclusions and accusing each other please? Some of us (few) are trying to have actual conversation here.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I try to respect people's opinions but I do get annoyed when it seems that other people aren't being as respectful, in this instance to the people working for Telltale. I'm not as good as some at getting my point across, I'm just trying to say what I'm feeling about this.
First: I apologize to MntPeak, Vainamoinen, and ryannumber1gamer. I went about everything wrong here by pushing my ideals for the conversation. So I'm going to try something else.
I'm sorry for being a pushy asshole, and for screaming.
I ask you to put your anger away. Not your criticism, not your opinions, and not even your frustration. I just ask that you put your anger away. I ask that you stop, calm yourselves, and reply in a rational, calm manner. You know, the opposite of mine.
And then stop, and think about whether or not you're about to make your point about the games, your frustrations, Telltale, or each other. Cancel out the part that is about each other. Just completely cancel it out. Keep your points to the subject at hand. I'm going to stop blaming all of you. I'm going to stop making this about all of you. I'm going to stop making it about me. This is about Telltale's design philosophy.
And now I'll make a new point. Telltale should be open to criticism by reasoned, calm people. They shouldn't consider their way the end all, be all. As creative minds, they should be open to criticism. I think?
I say that, but then questions start swirling around in my head.
What if they did do everything we wanted?
Would they still be creating their way?
Would their personal creativity exist?
Would the games be better?
Would we be satisfied?
What does "improving" mean?
Is there a height of perfection they can improve toward?
Is there a height of perfection they can evolve toward?
What if there isn't?
Maybe we're all looking at it the wrong way. Maybe we're using the wrong terms.
Maybe what I call improving is actually just adding this or that and feeling better about myself? Innovation is doing something nobody has done before?
What's the point of sticking with the same old thing? What's the point of changing, if you aren't going toward a real goal. Jake said it's like a tree. Well, where's that tree branching off to? Will it ever end? Will it just keep branching and branching? Sounds infinite to me. I don't want to be just another branch. I just want to make a great adventure game, and I want to see other people do it too. Telltale don't wan do dat. What should the adventure game do or be?
I dunno. Nothing makes sense. If I think about it any more, I'll go mad. I don't have any answers. I just want everyone to be nice, and I want to go do something else.
I have been a fan of Telltale for quite a few years now, and some way or another gotten my hands on a good chunk of their games. (Steam Sales, Preorder bonuses, what have you.) I can't say I'm much of an Adventure Game Veteran like most of the folks here, though I think I can fall into the Telltale Veteran category. It's great to see Telltale exploring different kinds of things an areas of gaming, and also good to see them tapping into a new set of fans.
Though it brings up a problem with Telltale, one that has been recurring for many years now. The problem being that whenever Telltale has a successful, or what they believe to be successful, model that worked for Game X it will work just as well for Game Y. That is not at all the case, The Walking Dead's model worked because it created characters you cared about and gave an emphasize more on choice and story; and that's essentially what the idea of the Walking Dead franchise is.
That same idea may work pretty well for a license like Fables but what about one like King's Quest? The premise of King's Quest it to find inconceivable solutions to very obscure puzzles in a bizarre fashion. Sure it would be cool to see what King's Quest would be like with an interesting backstory, but it's not what King's Quest was known for. Even if King's Quest turns out to be a "true blue" adventure game, who's to say they won't automatically go back to Walking Dead's formula for other new franchises, instead of the "true blue" Adventure Game formula.
I guess to sum this all up, the point I'm trying to make is don't sacrifice what makes the franchise good to reach a broader audience because it worked in another game of yours. I still think you should focus in the story-telling department but give the puzzle and gameplay department an equal amount of love. Sure puzzles in games or puzzle games in general may not be everyone's cup of tea, though expanding on what makes it good for some and how it could be made better for others should be taken into consideration instead of scrapping it all together.
No they don't. Hit the Road was decent, but the story was stupid, the ending was stupid, and more than a few of the puzzles made no sense.
They all make sense in the world of a cartoon.
Eh, different feelings and all that. It's the first puzzle I think of from the game, next to the golf game, and my favorite. Once the scene between Max and the cat in the beginning happened, to me, that set up all Max interactions after. Max was usually the first thing I used on something odd.
And the characters are in no way memorable other than Sam & Max themselves. Well, maybe Conroy Bumpus, but only because he's
TTG's Sam & Max games actually allow Max to be playable at times, and makes many characters in their world memorable--some even infamous and reviled among the fanbase. They have the same style of humor that Hit the Road does, and the stories aren't completely stupid. Convoluted, yes--but not stupid like Hit the Road's story is.
It sounds like what you're trying to say is that, as it annoys you greatly that TTG has moved away from making adventure games, that their earlier games which do belong to the adventure game genre automatically suck by default.
Certainly they have their problems--bugs and reused character models among them--but that doesn't make them bad games, and especially not compared to the, albeit humorous, mediocrity that is Hit the Road.
I didn't say...I love Telltales earlier g- screw me, I'm out of here before I lose it big time.
Telltale's Sam & Max games barely have coherent stories. Season 3 is the only one that had a solid story, and even that felt awkward and disconnected compared to the much tighter stories of pretty much every Lucasarts game (including Hit the Road.) The only reason anyone could even argue that Telltale Sam & Max supporting characters are "memorable" (sarcastic quotes used on purpose) are because Telltale uses the same characters in every season, like clockwork--we've seen them in three times as many games as the characters from Hit the Road. By the way, I'd take Bruno, Trixie, Conroy, et al, any day over Sybil, Bosco, (ugh--what a horrible and painfully unfunny character), etc. Bosco is especially bad, too, because he's a character you're never supposed to actually SEE. That's what makes the Bosco sequences from the comics and from Hit the Road actually funny. Hit the Road was such a beautiful mesh of themes and gags from the existing comics, whereas Telltale's games feel pulled more from the watered down (and quite a bit more random and less consistently funny) Saturday morning cartoon.
Tales is good--I really do like it. Easily Telltale's best game. But it doesn't hold a candle to MI1, 2, or Curse. I do like it better than Escape though, so I'll give you that. The story just isn't as good. The jokes aren't as funny. And we won't even talk puzzles and exploration factor.
I just have to think that either Telltale's writers just can't hit the same beats as the glory days of Lucasarts storytelling and humor, or that the episodic format itself is the limiting (and lessening) factor. Certainly the episodic format is a big part of the reason Telltale's Sam & Max games feel so much more random and incoherent (and more like Saturday morning cartoon episodes.) They really just bore me to tears.
Neither. I think you've made a good point back there.
I've absolutely no anger towards you, but I do have some anger towards the direction of this conversation.
As you yourself have said, Telltale should be open to criticism. But look at this thread and you see that people just lose themselves in defining the adventure genre instead of actually delivering valid personal criticism of the Walking Dead game. They're trying to define adventure game just to press their personal standards on their favorite video game company.
Some people in here are now in the process of defining "adventure", and I've read about 300 pages of those heated attempts in German forums already. Just wait until they recognize on page 217 that they'll have to define "puzzles" as well, that'll be the huge step forward!
I insist that this gets you nowhere, and this is the only frustration that I have here.
Those who didn't like TWD will have to think about WHY they did not. "It wasn't an adventure game" and "there weren't many puzzles" is not an answer to that question. I can just plead once more that such definitions do not help.
"I generally felt a loss of control/immersion/interactivity because the game mostly ran along at its own pace", THAT I considered one of many answers, one that could be elaborated on in quite some detail.
Yes, it is, absolutely. And there is integrity in that philosophy in TWD. Back to the Future, to me, felt like an adventure game that was cut every time it could have felt too problematic for the player. And you really, really saw those wounds. TWD was complete, a whole game, an executed concept from start to finish. So I can criticize the conscious design decisions.
I don't think they do. I really, really don't think they do. Sure it gets frustrating when the third major game in a row isn't something you can connect with. But that doesn't mean they never listen to their fans.
They would make awful games. You just KNOW I'm right. Firstly, when we get down to details, there's greatly differing opinions even among the "old school adventure society". That's why I am a bit afraid of adventure game kickstarters. Thousands of people who know nothing about game design start thinking that if only they put their thumb in the soup ("we're the publisher!"), all will be for the better, and the designers think that they might possibly "owe" it to that financially supportive community to listen to their "ideas".
You can never say until that perfection is reached, and chances are it's only a momentary perfection. The same can be said about "real goals". Whether they're good or bad to strive after can only be determined after reaching them. If the conversational system of TWD was complex enough to actually suggest real choices and influence over characters (and if the characters did not have the tendency to suddenly die, making all those previous conversations worthless), who knows what a satisfying experience that could be? As I said, the goal could be defined as "psychological puzzle".
Video games are art. OF COURSE you only ever chose a "direction" and hope for the best about where it leads. There is no other way. Good design choices are always only classified in retrospect.
That's the box you're thinking in. Strike "adventure" out of these sentences, and you might get some answers for yourself. Including the factual incorrectness of the second sentence.
Because you're thinking in a box. And I know for a fact you can abandon that.
Monkey Island 2 is one of the worst games ever created.
There! I finally came out and said it!
Thanks. Now I know what I didn't like about The Walking Dead. It bored me. Once I realised how small my influence on anything was I was only going along to see the end.
And that point was fixing the swing in episode 2. After that all the program did was annoy me more and more. Still episode 2 was the best in the whole bundle. Obvious twist but I still enjoyed it.
Oh, and as long as we're talking about Telltale's Sam and Max games, let's talk about the voices.
For Sam and Max Hit the Road, we had Bill Farmer, who brought Sam to life with an interesting fusion of Humphrey Bogart and Johnny Carson... a combo which worked! Every line of his oozed snark... plus I could sense an authoritative tone in his dialogue, which meant that he was not someone you could get away with messing with. Max was voiced by Nick Jameson, and I know I'm going to get flak for this for siding with someone who sounded "too adult". His voice sounded edgy and unfiltered, and conveyed plenty of attitude, as if to say, "I am not the weak and defenseless bunny rabbit you think I am, so do not underestimate me."
We were going to get those voices back in Freelance Police, but we all know how that went! Hopefully Lucasarts/Disney Interactive will bring them back (preferrably this year).
Now, as for the Telltale voices...
Sam, instead of being voiced by Bill Farmer, is voiced by David Nowlin. And I know people reading this are going to hate me for saying this... but I felt nothing from him. His delivery sounded so vanilla, so milquetoast. It sounded to me like he was just there.
You have not heard Nick Jameson's voice come out of Max's mouth in the current games. In Culture Shock, you heard Andrew Chaikin instead. He sounded just too whiny and annoying to me. William Kasten, who replaced him, was probably just as grating.
I know that people somehow love the new voices and would go into conniptions if Telltale were to magically remake the games so that the original voices would be brought back... but I think that Telltale should do that anyway. By doing this, I feel that it would open the doors to a market that would otherwise feel alienated. Besides, I feel that seven/eight years is long enough.
*whew* That was an amazingly long rant from me, but I felt it deserved to be said here.
I'm trying to say that just because TTG isn't making adventure games anymore, it doesn't automatically make their older games (that are adventure games) crap by association, and I feel like that's what people here are doing.
Yeah, well, that's just like your opinion, man.
Yeah, well, that's just like your opinion, man.
What part of my big post that I lost said was that I was never happy with the level of "adventure" (my personal definition of adventure, that is not everybody else's, which is fine, but which I thought Telltale was trying to achieve at the time) quality in their games. I thought that Telltale were heralding the return of the great adventure tradition. I mean, after Freelance Police was canceled (for all intents and purposes, a true classic-style adventure game), Telltale announced they were bringing it BACK! Wow! It's a miracle! Adventures WILL return after all! (again, my own definition, which is ok if they or anybody else desn't share it) I mean, after all they said that many of the ideas from Freelance Police were used in Save The World. Not everything, but you can see from this example that some of us fully expected to see classic-styled adventures return through Telltale. They were all but saying it with their actions with Sam & Max. Unfortunately Season One was not really that great, in my opinion. Still I chose to enjoy it because I thought they were working their way up to it again. Easing people back into adventures. But instead of improving quality (again, my own definition), they went the other way. Tales of Monkey Island was a step back in the direction I was hoping for. They even brought item combination back into the fold, overblown and hyper-advertized, as it was in the interface, as if people wouldn't understand that you could actually combine items. That approach I felt was unnecessary. It wasn't until BTTF episode 2 that I realized that Telltale had no intention of going in that direction anymore. And it wasn't until the past recent months that I realized that Telltale NEVER INTENDED going in that direction. Now that I realize that, I'm at peace.
Point being, Telltale's games were never up to some of our standards. I probably wouldn't have stayed here on the forums if I had realized this way back when.
Also, I think Hit The Road and MI1, 2, and even 3 (with as many problems as it had) were much more enjoyable than S&M seasons 1, 2, and 3 and Tales of Monkey Island. Did I have fun with them? Sure. But it just wasn't the experience I was expecting. Which is too bad. Oh well.