Ever watch a TV episode of Inspector Morse, The Firm, or Law & Order? In each episode they had a particular crime to solve, and subsequent episodes didn't affect other episodes. Each episode was its own little bundle of puzzles, clues and solutions. Locations were never revisited from previous episodes, apart from the generic locales like their office, their bosses office, etc. However, each episodes sometimes ended with a bit of a cliffhanger to lead into the next episode.
I think that's what Telltale are going to do with Sam & Max, although I could be completely wrong. That formula seems to work for TV series - how it applies to an interactive game world is another story altogether. I'm inclined to say part of the whole experience of such an adventure game lets the player revisit old locations to discover a whole new set of NPC dialogue, clickable options, and so forth.
However, in an adventure game, once I've done what needs to be done in a certain location, I seldom find reason for revisiting it, unless I think it might help me to solve a puzzle or progress further in the game.
With that said, I look forward to see how Telltale can be as creative as possible with this mould, it certainly allows for it.
I find it rather peculiar that a lot of people are absolutely convinced of the negative effects of episodic content, when all we have seen so far is an announcement teaser.
There's a bunch of obviously talented people at work here... I think it's safe to cut them some slack and trust in their good judgement.
Also, linearity isn't the end of adventure gaming. There are tons of excellent linear games out there. If we can get something like half a Grim Fandango year per episode, that would be incredible.
I find it rather peculiar that a lot of people are absolutely convinced of the negative effects of episodic content, when all we have seen so far is an announcement teaser.
There's a bunch of obviously talented people at work here... I think it's safe to cut them some slack and trust in their good judgement.
Also, linearity isn't the end of adventure gaming. There are tons of excellent linear games out there. If we can get something like half a Grim Fandango year per episode, that would be incredible.
But anyway... Telltale are doing something new here, so it's logical for all of us to get all worked up. I'm sure they'll come up with something wonderful, but the fact that this game is made by talented people doesn't magically take away all of my questions and reservations.
Episodic content is of course a tried and trusted concept... for television. It hasn't been tried for games a lot yet, so I hope people will be ready for this rather radical change. Sure, some other companies do it and it appears to be successful, but how will this be a few years down the road? What would happen if every game you play was episodic? Either people would play far less games, or these episodic games would have to be drastically lowered in price... yeah, yeah, it works for television. Because it's free. If I want to keep up with 10 television series, I just have to invest a lot of time. If I want to keep up with 10 episodic game series, I have to invest time and money, and I just want to know if I can get the most bang for my buck.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I don't hate episodic games per se - Bone is magnificent! - but 2 hours of gameplay has a potential to be overpriced... I would even find 5 dollars to be a bit on the pricey side compared to other games, but just acceptable. Meh, now I'm going all negative again, but that's just because I desperately want Telltale to get this right.
I'm like, holding thumbs at home, wanting to do something, but it's out of my hands. (I suppose is I were more proactive, I could do something, but I'm not.) Telltale have got the ball in their court completely, and they're making Sam & Max history as we speak...I mean, as we type.
I think Sam & Max will continue on well into the future, long after we're dead. So, I concur; 'MEH', it would be great for Telltale's talented people to do what they do best, and make something schweet and awesome. We just have to sit around, triddle our fingers, and hope for the best.
TELLTALE OKES: Get it right, or I will be very upset, and if I am upset, I will cause a glacial wall to develop right outside your offices with my sheer mind-power. I did that once before, but please don't tell anyone.
Well I think the great cow race worked very well.. right amount of gameplay right price.. I don't think anyone could complain about that experience.. The 2 hour gameplay for Sam and Max concerns me, mainly because these will be self contained games. With bone its a little longer but the story also continues on.. Guess we will just have to wait and see..
The 2 hour gameplay for Sam and Max concerns me, mainly because these will be self contained games. With bone its a little longer but the story also continues on.. Guess we will just have to wait and see..
While no-one at Telltale has denied it yet, I'd be curious as to the source of this whole "Two Hour" thing that everyone's so worked up about.
A direct quote in an interview, or in the middle of journolist's copy with no direct quote to back it up?
Maybe they're just exercising caution, given what they were saying about Out From Boneville's length pre release and what it actually ended up being for some people.
Or maybe a 2 hour gameplay experience will simply work. That's longer than most movies, and people start complaining if movies approch or exceed the 3 hour mark to tell their 'self-contained story'. Go figure.
The 2 hour gameplay for Sam and Max concerns me, mainly because these will be self contained games. With bone its a little longer but the story also continues on.. Guess we will just have to wait and see..
While no-one at Telltale has denied it yet, I'd be curious as to the source of this whole "Two Hour" thing that everyone's so worked up about.
A direct quote in an interview, or in the middle of journolist's copy with no direct quote to back it up?
Maybe they're just exercising caution, given what they were saying about Out From Boneville's length pre release and what it actually ended up being for some people.
Or maybe a 2 hour gameplay experience will simply work. That's longer than most movies, and people start complaining if movies approch or exceed the 3 hour mark to tell their 'self-contained story'. Go figure.
Well from the Sam and Max FAQ
How will Sam and Max episodes compare to your Bone episodes?
Bone is episodic, and Sam & Max will be episodic, but most of the similarities end there. We'll be using a different model with Sam & Max than we use with Bone. A Sam & Max game will be more self-contained than a Bone game — more like playing an episode of a sitcom than a chunk of a movie. Each Sam & Max episode will be shorter than, say, The Great Cow Race, but they'll also be released much closer together. And they'll be even easier on your wallet.
See already, playing an episode of a sitcom.. more self contained than Bone..hey I thought Bone was pretty self contained to begin with! Getting them closer together is obviously a very good thing.. I think the story..the humour can totally work in this format..my only concern is how much game are we gonna get in 2 hours
and yeah some1s two hours could be another persons 4 hours.. The great cow race must have taken me atleast 5-6 hours to complete..maybe the smnmx episodes will be more like 3 hours for me
Bruner informed me that development on Sam & Max is now in full swing, with the full designs for the first two episodes complete and actual production underway. The first installment should arrive for purchase via Telltale's website as well as through the GameTap online game subscription. While the company likens its Bone games, based on Jeff Smith's acclaimed graphic novels, to a miniseries, it looks at Sam & Max more like a full television series. Each two-hour episode will see Sam & Max solve a complete case, with an overarching storyline tying the episodes together and culminating in a season finale-like grand finish.
Only place I've ever seen that 2 hour thing mentioned, and it's not a direct quote.
I don't really know how to say it, but an episodic game kinda like Plunder Island, except that it ends with that, would be great. Well, that's perhaps the longest part of CMI, so maybe I should expect less than that. But it's just how it's done, and at the same time kinda self-contained. Purpose: Get a ship and a crew. And then it ends and moves on to the next part. But it's so much that happens, and different puzzles that must be solved, but don't have to be solved to solve another puzzle. Well, it's the same with Blood Island. I actually think one thing I disliked wth Hit the Road was that too often you had to go back to old places to solve one puzzle, and couldn't get on with the game or solve other puzzles before one puzzle was solved.
But I know, Grim Fandango was brilliant as well. I suppose you know what you're doing. It isn't the way the puzzles is designed that makes a good game. The most important thing is a rich world, and if the puzzles contribute to that it's a good thing. Non linearity worked great in some parts in Plunder Island, just think of the snake and the swamp. It wasn't possible to get on with the game before you had got past the obstacles, but they made the island feel more rich, if you know what I mean. It worked great to create a little suspense to the player. More dramatic. If you could just walk away it wouldn't have been that exciting [:P] It made the island feel more exotic with a lot of dangerous and unexplored places.
Well, in short, I want rich episodes with both linearity and non-linearity, but with a non-linear basis. And I can't say it too many times, the world has to feel rich, and not feel stripped down. I really believe it can work.
Edit: Hm, starting to wonder if some of my wishes would not work for Sam'n'Max... Ah, crap, just make it marvellous, will ye?
And, and! I want at least one episode to happen at night!
There is a completely different way of looking at this. Rather than getting lots of games that are far shorter than a normal one we are getting one game that is far longer. I don't mean the season as a whole I mean the fact we have to wait for the next episode. Instead of getting the whole game and racing through it, we get part of the game then wait for the next part. I'm not sure but if there is enough replayability in the episodes so you don't get bored waiting for the next one it could seem like the game lasts for ages.
I think everyone needs to trust in the fact that we have seasoned game designers hashing out these very issues as we speak.
<sarcasm> No! the experienced designers know nothing of how to make games! It's up to us raving howling inexperienced fans to tell you how to make the game! And then complain if you do! </sarcasm>
On a slightly more serious and totally unrelated note, anyone here played Dreamfall? Apart from the totally suckerific combat (How to beat every fight in game: Hold block and strafe until the enemy waltzes past you. quick attack until they block you. Now heavy attack until they stop standing still and blocking. Repeat as necessary) and the half-arsed stealth sections it's fan-tucking-fastic.
I think everyone needs to trust in the fact that we have seasoned game designers hashing out these very issues as we speak.
Sure we do... and the fact is that there are only so many hit the road fans on this planet... i strongly support non-lineraity (well... i created this thread...) but the fact is that the market is very small for advanture games... and just by making them telltale is putting itself at great risk of non-success... as for the gaming market it demands short games with great graphics, a crap storyline, non-empire earth 2 sounds etc.
The era of hit the road is unfortunately over. I doubt it will return untill graphics, phisics, AI and so on are 100% true to life!
Summary: they have enough exp to know they should follow what the market demands of them... not what some errorage from slovenia, a country they never heard of, told them...
tho i would love a hit the road style game...
Matt from Slovenia (The chicken like country east of Italy)
I'll get the beanut butter, you get the dunking stool! we'll see how long they'll refuse to obay their fans! MUHAHAHAHA
btw: i'm just kidding...
Actually this linearity issue sparked an idea in my head... now, in SAM the linearity was nun existant... in bone there's linearity all over the place... what if you make that game in the style of the kyrandia franchise (whitch includes The legend of kyrandia: "The hand of fate (Westwood Studios )" and "Malcom's revenge (Virgin Interactive (1994))")
Those two games have a sense of linearity, however you can always move between a minimum of two rooms in whitch there are the objects you need to complete the puzzle...
As i remember in the 1st Bone game you couldn't mave anywhere... all the clues were in the same room. I think this would surely satisfy the expectations of most SAM:HTR fans...
Matt from Slovenia (i think i made clear where that is... )
Ive not actually played Bone yet. And the statement that all the clues for each puzzle are in the same room pretty much dictates that I never will.
Well, take it with a grain of salt, because it's not a true statement.
This is to be taken with a grain of salt, as well. Every other puzzle is a slider puzzle, and the rest are use-newspaper-to-get-key-stuck-in-key-hole puzzles. 8-}
Ive not actually played Bone yet. And the statement that all the clues for each puzzle are in the same room pretty much dictates that I never will.
Well, take it with a grain of salt, because it's not a true statement.
This is to be taken with a grain of salt, as well. Every other puzzle is a slider puzzle, and the rest are use-newspaper-to-get-key-stuck-in-key-hole puzzles. 8-}
This too must be taken with a grain of salt, because it's a whopping lie.
The more I think about it, the less fussed I am about the new Sam & Max being like Hit the Road (there’s only one Ron Gilbert after all) - I definitely want the humour and the feel of the comics to come through the game, but I'm less fussed about repeating game mechanics/style than I am about playing an enjoyable game - Since episodic gaming is still a pretty fresh idea (especially in the mainstream), I'd definitely prefer the game to take advantage of (and definitely poke a little fun at) the new distribution medium, developments in point and click adventuring, all that kind of stuff.
It was kind of the same with the voices - Like JP wrote, the problem isn’t that they sounded a little different - but that the timing was off - If they can spend a little time getting the timing right (which most humorous video games tend to screw up) then I reckon their onto a winner here?
I'm always interested in cheesy ideas for episodic games having bonus's for people who played the previous title (and I guess still have it installed on their machine/get a code for completing the prior chapter(s) - nothing big, a running gag or two, extra dialog (specific to the previous episodes) etc... So people who have played along the whole game feel invested, and people who are trying out with the latest instalment wont feel too confused... Or mini-competitions, so the first 50(?) people to complete the last chapter/find the secret message (definitely bonus for replay values) get the next chapter (downloadable) for free? Obviously these ideas really suck (I'm just bored at work ) but there’s definitely the potential for enhancements to game play from episodic titles - definitely the potential for communities to grow (& become obsessed, then complain) around this sort of gaming structure?
Comments
Ever watch a TV episode of Inspector Morse, The Firm, or Law & Order? In each episode they had a particular crime to solve, and subsequent episodes didn't affect other episodes. Each episode was its own little bundle of puzzles, clues and solutions. Locations were never revisited from previous episodes, apart from the generic locales like their office, their bosses office, etc. However, each episodes sometimes ended with a bit of a cliffhanger to lead into the next episode.
I think that's what Telltale are going to do with Sam & Max, although I could be completely wrong. That formula seems to work for TV series - how it applies to an interactive game world is another story altogether. I'm inclined to say part of the whole experience of such an adventure game lets the player revisit old locations to discover a whole new set of NPC dialogue, clickable options, and so forth.
However, in an adventure game, once I've done what needs to be done in a certain location, I seldom find reason for revisiting it, unless I think it might help me to solve a puzzle or progress further in the game.
With that said, I look forward to see how Telltale can be as creative as possible with this mould, it certainly allows for it.
There's a bunch of obviously talented people at work here... I think it's safe to cut them some slack and trust in their good judgement.
Also, linearity isn't the end of adventure gaming. There are tons of excellent linear games out there. If we can get something like half a Grim Fandango year per episode, that would be incredible.
Who's being so negative?
I attack you, hi-ya.
But anyway... Telltale are doing something new here, so it's logical for all of us to get all worked up. I'm sure they'll come up with something wonderful, but the fact that this game is made by talented people doesn't magically take away all of my questions and reservations.
Episodic content is of course a tried and trusted concept... for television. It hasn't been tried for games a lot yet, so I hope people will be ready for this rather radical change. Sure, some other companies do it and it appears to be successful, but how will this be a few years down the road? What would happen if every game you play was episodic? Either people would play far less games, or these episodic games would have to be drastically lowered in price... yeah, yeah, it works for television. Because it's free. If I want to keep up with 10 television series, I just have to invest a lot of time. If I want to keep up with 10 episodic game series, I have to invest time and money, and I just want to know if I can get the most bang for my buck.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I don't hate episodic games per se - Bone is magnificent! - but 2 hours of gameplay has a potential to be overpriced... I would even find 5 dollars to be a bit on the pricey side compared to other games, but just acceptable. Meh, now I'm going all negative again, but that's just because I desperately want Telltale to get this right.
[/rant]
I'm like, holding thumbs at home, wanting to do something, but it's out of my hands. (I suppose is I were more proactive, I could do something, but I'm not.) Telltale have got the ball in their court completely, and they're making Sam & Max history as we speak...I mean, as we type.
I think Sam & Max will continue on well into the future, long after we're dead. So, I concur; 'MEH', it would be great for Telltale's talented people to do what they do best, and make something schweet and awesome. We just have to sit around, triddle our fingers, and hope for the best.
TELLTALE OKES: Get it right, or I will be very upset, and if I am upset, I will cause a glacial wall to develop right outside your offices with my sheer mind-power. I did that once before, but please don't tell anyone.
and I call myself an adventure gamer.
I haven't even played that old indy game or finished Escape from monkey island!
I just have to find them somewhere cheap.
Plus I haven't played any Bone games!
While no-one at Telltale has denied it yet, I'd be curious as to the source of this whole "Two Hour" thing that everyone's so worked up about.
A direct quote in an interview, or in the middle of journolist's copy with no direct quote to back it up?
Maybe they're just exercising caution, given what they were saying about Out From Boneville's length pre release and what it actually ended up being for some people.
Or maybe a 2 hour gameplay experience will simply work. That's longer than most movies, and people start complaining if movies approch or exceed the 3 hour mark to tell their 'self-contained story'. Go figure.
Some people can get halfway through hit the road in two hours while other people only get half that
Well from the Sam and Max FAQ
How will Sam and Max episodes compare to your Bone episodes?
Bone is episodic, and Sam & Max will be episodic, but most of the similarities end there. We'll be using a different model with Sam & Max than we use with Bone. A Sam & Max game will be more self-contained than a Bone game — more like playing an episode of a sitcom than a chunk of a movie. Each Sam & Max episode will be shorter than, say, The Great Cow Race, but they'll also be released much closer together. And they'll be even easier on your wallet.
See already, playing an episode of a sitcom.. more self contained than Bone..hey I thought Bone was pretty self contained to begin with! Getting them closer together is obviously a very good thing.. I think the story..the humour can totally work in this format..my only concern is how much game are we gonna get in 2 hours
and yeah some1s two hours could be another persons 4 hours.. The great cow race must have taken me atleast 5-6 hours to complete..maybe the smnmx episodes will be more like 3 hours for me
Ahh, Here's the source Remo, eh?
Only place I've ever seen that 2 hour thing mentioned, and it's not a direct quote.
But I know, Grim Fandango was brilliant as well. I suppose you know what you're doing. It isn't the way the puzzles is designed that makes a good game. The most important thing is a rich world, and if the puzzles contribute to that it's a good thing. Non linearity worked great in some parts in Plunder Island, just think of the snake and the swamp. It wasn't possible to get on with the game before you had got past the obstacles, but they made the island feel more rich, if you know what I mean. It worked great to create a little suspense to the player. More dramatic. If you could just walk away it wouldn't have been that exciting [:P] It made the island feel more exotic with a lot of dangerous and unexplored places.
Well, in short, I want rich episodes with both linearity and non-linearity, but with a non-linear basis. And I can't say it too many times, the world has to feel rich, and not feel stripped down. I really believe it can work.
Edit: Hm, starting to wonder if some of my wishes would not work for Sam'n'Max... Ah, crap, just make it marvellous, will ye?
And, and! I want at least one episode to happen at night!
<sarcasm> No! the experienced designers know nothing of how to make games! It's up to us raving howling inexperienced fans to tell you how to make the game! And then complain if you do! </sarcasm>
On a slightly more serious and totally unrelated note, anyone here played Dreamfall? Apart from the totally suckerific combat (How to beat every fight in game: Hold block and strafe until the enemy waltzes past you. quick attack until they block you. Now heavy attack until they stop standing still and blocking. Repeat as necessary) and the half-arsed stealth sections it's fan-tucking-fastic.
Sure we do... and the fact is that there are only so many hit the road fans on this planet... i strongly support non-lineraity (well... i created this thread...) but the fact is that the market is very small for advanture games... and just by making them telltale is putting itself at great risk of non-success... as for the gaming market it demands short games with great graphics, a crap storyline, non-empire earth 2 sounds etc.
The era of hit the road is unfortunately over. I doubt it will return untill graphics, phisics, AI and so on are 100% true to life!
Summary: they have enough exp to know they should follow what the market demands of them... not what some errorage from slovenia, a country they never heard of, told them...
tho i would love a hit the road style game...
Matt from Slovenia (The chicken like country east of Italy)
btw: i'm just kidding...
Actually this linearity issue sparked an idea in my head... now, in SAM the linearity was nun existant... in bone there's linearity all over the place... what if you make that game in the style of the kyrandia franchise (whitch includes The legend of kyrandia: "The hand of fate (Westwood Studios )" and "Malcom's revenge (Virgin Interactive (1994))")
Those two games have a sense of linearity, however you can always move between a minimum of two rooms in whitch there are the objects you need to complete the puzzle...
As i remember in the 1st Bone game you couldn't mave anywhere... all the clues were in the same room. I think this would surely satisfy the expectations of most SAM:HTR fans...
Matt from Slovenia (i think i made clear where that is...
Well, take it with a grain of salt, because it's not a true statement.
This too must be taken with a grain of salt, because it's a whopping lie.
I dunno... doesn't look like that much salt for $4.99 (quite a hefty price for a shaker).
You can set them up at your doorstep to ward off slugs.
It was kind of the same with the voices - Like JP wrote, the problem isn’t that they sounded a little different - but that the timing was off - If they can spend a little time getting the timing right (which most humorous video games tend to screw up) then I reckon their onto a winner here?
I'm always interested in cheesy ideas for episodic games having bonus's for people who played the previous title (and I guess still have it installed on their machine/get a code for completing the prior chapter(s) - nothing big, a running gag or two, extra dialog (specific to the previous episodes) etc... So people who have played along the whole game feel invested, and people who are trying out with the latest instalment wont feel too confused... Or mini-competitions, so the first 50(?) people to complete the last chapter/find the secret message (definitely bonus for replay values) get the next chapter (downloadable) for free? Obviously these ideas really suck (I'm just bored at work
Am I rambling nonsensically here?
Yes... Yes you are
Did I just walk straight into that?