Following the rules vs. Giving Favors
One of the themes that was pretty strong in this chapter is whether or not you decide to enforce the rules (as Snow commands you to) or to do things your own way i.e. by letting Toad and Colin stay in the mundy world instead of going back to the farm. I think this new rule applies to the way Bigby handles things as well, since he seems to be very violent for the most part (at least from what we've seen in the game).
So my question is: do you guys think Bigby should back up Snow by sticking strictly to the rules, or should he just keep doing his own thing even if it means giving favors to people and/or being violent when he needs to?
When it comes to myself I'm very conflicted, which is cool to be honest (I think it's cool to think through complicated decisions). initially I felt it was necessary to do everything I could to strengthen Snow's position as the new leader because I felt that if you had two people in charge with different agendas things wouldn't look good to those I'm meant to rule over. Yet at the same time I also believe that Snow doesn't get the bigger picture. Bigby (at least my version of him) does try to follow the rules but he also knows that there are a lot of situations where these rules just don't cut it.
The times where he got violent where times where violence was really needed. Sure, things might be more different if you play an aggressive Bigby but then you have to think about Bigby's image as a law enforcer. Should he let everyone walk over him all the time or should he beat some heads every once in a while to make sure everyone knows who's in charge? I know he could still be aggressive and not resort to violence, but it seems there are A LOT of Fables who are out to get him and wouldn't respect him if he didn't beat some sense into them. Being violent all the time isn't the answer, but neither is letting people push you around all the time. Snow should know that things can't be so simple.
When it comes to giving favors is where things get more rough for me. Should everyone have to face the harsh rule of the law or should some people be given preference over? Toad, Collin, Aunt Greenleaf, and Beauty & Beast were five people Bigby could be lenient to. is it right for him to cut them a break? As much as I like Collin, as much as I don't want to make things rough for Toad, as much as I didn't want to hurt Aunt Greenleaf, and as much as I care about beauty and Beast I still felt that I was being extremely unfair to all the other Fables who didn't (and won't) get the same favors. Is it better to just be a dick to everyone and maintain the rules or is it ok if I let some people get away with things?
I'll be honest, though I thought I was being consistent with my decisions I ended up being more a lot more biased than I thought. I did help Aunt Greenleaf in chapter three, I didn't let Collin stay with me (that's when I had my Snow/Leader conflict), I promised to hide stuff for Beauty and Beast, and I gave Toad the money from Crane. In trying to "keep the law" I only ended up being a jerk to Collin and gave everyone else a break. I ended up feeling like I should replay it all and either help everyone or help no one just to be 100% consistent with my decisions. Did you guys have the same experience?
Feel free to add anything I missed or to point out any mistakes in my logic.
Comments
Fuck rules. I'm all about the favors.
Technically, Auntie Greenleaf wasn't breaking any laws. Bufkin mentioned that selling unofficial glamours isn't technically illegal. Even if it were, didn't see a reason to burn the tree. I would have gladly confiscated it, given the option. Burning just felt too permanent and destructive.
Other than that, my Bigby mostly plays things by the book (As long as everyone else is as well. When the glamours come off, all bets are off.)
I can be sympathetic and look the other way if it's just me, but Snow already found out about Colin and Toad, so there was no getting out of that. Bigby was right, he's out of favors to give.
The rules are shit and what caused most fables to resort to the Crooked Man in the first place so I let Colin stay with me and I helped Toad.
But fuck Beauty and Beast because they're just spoiled fucks who can't handle not being rich.
Yeah this is a good point to make. So many Fables tried to do things the "right" way and it got them nowhere.
For the most part I have Bigby following the rules except for instances that the rules seem unreasonable. I feel that as Sheriff of Fabletown, it is his responsibility to enforce the laws despite his own opinions... only bending them if he sees the fault in said rules. I didn't follow Snow's orders to burn Greenleaf's tree and instead hired because I felt like it was a better solution to the situation in which the rules were wrong. I did, however, decide to send Collin and Toad to The Farm because those rules aren't unreasonable and actually have to do with the safety of the Fables. Besides, Collin would be restricted to just Bigby's apartment and that would be worse than staying at The Farm.
In the comics, while he is by and large a straight upholder of the law, Bigby also orchestrates a tonne of shady backdoor stuff that Snow doesn't know about, such as espionage. It's all for the good of Fabletown, and it's stuff that needs doing, so Bigby takes it on himself.
I do respect Snow and want her to be a great leader, but I did tend to give favors to people in this episode... I was surprised to see that I was in the minority about Colin and then Toad by allowing them to stay in the mundy world. I thought for sure everyone would choose that too. But I guess not.
I like Snow and think she can be a great leader for Fabletown. But I give favours. I'm ruthless(ly nice).
Yeah, you know, people ragged on this episode, but I thought the storytelling was pretty interesting. It really made me re-evaluate how Bigby views his role within Fabletown. The fact that the business office does everything "by the book" is probably the reason that somebody like the Crooked Man was able to rise to power, but at the same time, if you're just doing everything your own way all the time, and more often than not using violence or the threat of violence, how does that really make you different from the bad guys you're trying to bring down?
To me, there was a lot of good writing to be found in episode four, and some good decisions that I think are really splitting the community (in a good way).
I'm honestly a mix between favours and following rules. While mostly by the book, I'm willing to overlook minor things or resort to tougher options against unglamored opponents. And even when giving favours, it's only towards those who really deserve a second chance.
I gave Colin leeway and yet sent Toad to the farm. Colin's done nothing wrong, and as my Bigby said, he does what he can so he's not seen by the Mundies. Toad on the other hand has been given several chances to fix his mistakes, yet instead either makes excuses or badmouths anyone against him, and doesn't even try to hide (walking outside in broad daylight to sell Faith's coat really pissed me off). I lost my patience with him, so I sent him to the farm.
I didn
t send them to the farm. Anyway, theyll still end up there.As much as I care for Snow and her newly profound position, I don't think anyone will respect her if we don't give others the respect they need. For a long time, people of Fabletown haven't had the help/respect they needed- which is why got to see Toad, Holly, and Johann telling us that we were never there when they actually needed us. And Crane's also been fiddling with the money as well. So I thought it was time for us doing some favors for the fables.
I just did what was right for each situation. I didn't send Colin to the farm because he's a pig and stays with Bigby. If a mundie saw him there wouldn't be a problem. Bigby could say he's his pet pig. On the other toad wonders the streets, and he's been told numerous times to get glamoured and hasn't listened. So I sent him to the farm.
I let them both stay. Colin is my friend, and he stays off the eyes of Mundies. I would've sent Toad to The Farm, but I felt sorry for Toad Jr. so I let them stay just this one more time.
The presence of rules is definitely NOT what got Fables resorting to Crooked Man in the first place. If anything, Crooked Man has more rules in place for Fables in his employment (see: ribbons that decapitate people that want to leave, loan sharking). Fabletown government may be inefficient, but it isn't the rules that cause that. Especially not the Glamour rule. Hell, not even the Crooked man lets his Fables walk around unglamoured. The Glamours and the Farm are a necessary thing to maintain the secrecy of Fable presence, whether you're with Fabletown or Crooked Man.
That said, I sent Colin to the Farm. I didn't want to, but I didn't see an alternative. He said himself, he can't work for Glamours (doubt that he'd want to anyway) and we can't have him just wandering around New York. Hell, even a simple pig probably stands out in the streets there, much less a pig that talks. He doesn't exactly strike me as the subtle type. I don't see allowing him to stay ending in anything other than a disaster- for himself first and foremost. So to the Farm it was.
As for Toad, I gave him some money and firmly told him to buy the Glamour this time. If I see him again and he's unglamoured, I'll send him to the Farm, no questions asked. Thing is, even though we've told him to get glamoured several times already, that doesn't do shit if he can't afford the thing right now. His apartment got ransacked by the Tweedles and his car got wrecked by Woody and Bigby. I know from real life experience just how far back things like that can set back a person who's already struggling with poverty. So I had to cut him some slack, because I didn't see how any of this was his fault- it's not like he's buying things he can't afford, like Beauty and the Beast. Whom I didn't help, by the way.
(Minor comic spoilers ahead!) It has been established in the comics that the Fabletown doesn't do a better job at providing Glamours for its citizens not because it doesn't WANT to, or can't afford to, but simply because the Witches can't produce as many Glamours as are demanded. Knowing this fact, I hired Auntie Greenleaf to help in that regard. That said, the Farm is a necessary evil and there's no choice but to enforce that.
I agree, I wish I could've said that to Snow. Also, however she feels about Crane not being the killer, he was still a suspect when we arrested him, and goes full bitch on Bigby if we chose to insist on it.
As for violence, sometimes it's definitely necessary. There's only so many threats you can make without following through with them before people start taking advantage of that and are no longer intimidated. The only way the scum Bigby has to deal with will listen to him and respect him is if they fear him. That is why I ripped Dum's throat out. Hell, even real world law enforcement uses deadly force to counter deadly force. You can't have some crooks shooting at the town's sheriff and allow them to walk away unscathed, or they'll take it as the norm. Now after my Bigby tore Dum apart and beat the crap out of Jersey Devil, the rest of Crooked Man's lackeys will think twice before trying something like that again. Or so I hope.
Yeah I agree with you about rules and inefficiency.
How many Fables were overlooked by the Fables government? How could they let the Crooked Man put his paws on everyone without realizing it? Were all these Fables just naturally the most vulnerable and so resorted to the Crooked Man since the government couldn't help them out? The government really couldn't do anything to help them out? Snow said it herself, they pay more attention to guys like Bluebeard who can throw their weight around more easily rather than guys like Toad, Faith, Nerissa, Holly, and Gren. This huge fallout has mostly been caused by terrible leadership. I guess we could say that the rules are well established, but it's important to think about how the leaders implement them. Evidently they didn't do a very good job of it.
I think Crane deserves a good portion of the blame for this given how he kept Fable money for himself and also how he basically did nothing to help anyone as a leader. As for Snow and Bigby the only thing I can say is that they should have seen it coming. For someone to get so much control and get so well established right under their noses they must have not been paying attention too hard.
SPOILERS
Bigby makes a similar declaration to this if you go to the butcher shop. Something like, "this has been happening right under my nose?!"The Crooked Man may be extremely smart and cunning, but I think Snow+Bigby should also be held accountable to some extent.
Mostly I did what was necessary and by-the-book rather than dishing out favours. It wasn't right to burn down Greenleaf's Tree so I didn't. Whenever my Bigby has gotten into a fight, there has been restraint - only fighting or attacking as self-defence. With Colin and Toad, I had to tell Toad to go to the Farm for a while, because he was going places unglamoured. He was warned, but he didn't get it. Irrespective of being able to do it - I know that he has some money troubles - he is putting everyone at risk. If you can't do it, you've got to be out of the city until you can. Same with Colin. I have given help to Fables in need, since Bigby needs allies at this time, but there must be equality. If the Fables are in need and my Bigby can help, he will help, but the rules are there to keep everyone safe.
My Bigby tries to be nice and tries to avoid violence where possible, (I let Gren keep his arm, I didn't beat up dee/dum in interrogation, Broke up Woody and Grens fight, Restrained Jersey, avoided punching anyone when it was an option etc.) but at the end of the day he's the sheriff. He's got a job to do and he's not going to be walked all over either especially as alot of fables seem to like testing him.
With Toad, I gave him Crane's money for a glamour mainly because I do feel bad for him having to raise a son with very little money (though he really doesn't do himself any favors) and I'm all sorts of curious to see Toad in glamour so I hope we'll get to see it in episode 5 though I don't think we will see it sadly. If he isn't glamored then Bigby will come down hard on him because he's been told numerous times and most likely wasted the money Bigby gave him which he shouldn't have to do in the first place. So this really is his last chance. I also told Colin Snow would come round eventually. I don't believe she will but I figured Bigby wasn't exactly in a fit state and it'd keep Colin off his back.