Well, Syberia and Syberia 2 attracted many female players, and these games were not easy. They were really adventure games, with objects to pick up, combine and use. Bone, as someone said it is more a semi-interactive fiction than an adventure game. I was expecting a LucasArts-style adventure game, and I guess I was expecting too much .
Syberia 2 was slightly more difficult than Syberia 1, but they artificially stretched the game by putting in more boring machinery-based puzzles (which I don't like).
I don't think that the puzzles in Syberia 1 were so much harder than Bone's ones.
The problem is that Syberia gives the player more freedom of movement and many locations, scattering the necessary objects through them, whereas too often Bone gives you the items and/or infos you need ALL IN THE SAME LOCATION. Sometimes the game even blocks you from getting back to previous locations.
I don't want harder puzzles, I want more freedom and interactivity! I like mini-games, because they are a clever way to avoid inventory-based puzzles (when these could feel forced in the flow of the story) and they don't require action skills. The "escaping from the rat creatures" puzzle/minigame was brilliant and felt totally story-based, which is the real MAIN quality of a Lucasarts adventure game.
Dom
You’re right about the minigames in LEC games. My favorite being the insult sword fighting.
As you said, a game with 100% inventory puzzles would be boring. But take the spitting contest in MI2 : It is a mini game, but you need some thinking in order to succeed, and you need some stuff you pick up in other locations. This adds to the interest of the game and makes it last longer. I remember when I was about 14 and playing the LEC adventure games, I used to get stuck days at puzzles. We were several friends playing, and at school we were talking about our discoveries, like “I’ve found a way to spit at a longer distance, but it is still not enough†etc. And when you were stuck, you still had a big area you could visit, and spend time talking with the many NPC (trying all the stupid lines of dialogue), those were the best moment of the games.
Unfortunately, you cannot do that with bone, because
1) you are never stuck for a long time due to the low difficulty of puzzles
2) But if you are, you can not spend time traveling around and talking with the NPC, because your liberty is limited to a very small area. That is why I agree with the term semi-interactive fiction to describe Bone. I liked it, though, but was a little bit deceived.
Just wanted to share my experience with you after completing the first Bone game from Telltale.
First of all, thanks to the staff at Telltale for getting this game out so quickly! Anyways, here are my impressions.
General Pros
The Bone license is great.
Good, wholesome family fun.
No blood, guts or twitchy action sequences (except for the locust/rat monster sequences).
Specific Pros
Ted minigame - lots of fun, i need to go back and play that one.
Bone expressions - the little eyebrows are great
Voice acting and artwork - scenery and most characters really got me into the game.
Specific Cons
Thorn character model felt incomplete - could be because of limited room for more complex textures?
The dinner table conversation made me YAWN...Thorn's responses just felt really flat.
Running sequence minigame - whew, that was a bummer - the control
scheme was rough - i wanted to throw my mouse across the room! please allow control with a keyboard in the future :-)
length/price ratio - more puzzles please, more ted like minigames - I just put down a 20 dollar bill, please give me a 5-7 hour game. OR, give me a chance to buy a bunch of episodes for a slight discount.
Overall, I think Telltale has done a good job with this first release. My expectations for part 2 are much higher now. I've noticed that the staff is reading and responding to many of the comments. I hope many of the criticisms will be addressed before the next Bone game is released.
I actually thought Ben was good in both design and voice, but Thorn is horrible in both. Yeah, the fact that she's one of the less cartoony-looking characters obviously makes things hard, but her current design and animation are horrible. The face looks downright creepy, and every animation is really stilted (I winced every time she got a closeup during the dinner conversation). She needs to be given a new model in future episodes.
As for voices, they were mostly better than I thought they would be. The ones that don't need improving at all are Smiley, Phoney, Ted, the Dragon, the Rat Creatures and Kingdok, and one of the possums (The one with a voice somewhere in the middle; the other two have a deeper and lighter voice, and both were annoying.). Ted's Brother and Ben have fitting voices, but sounded kind of lifeless. Fone and Thorn, on the other hand, just sound terrible. This is VERY bad considering that they're the two central characters. I got used to the sound of Fone's voice over time, but he doesn't sound just sort of lifeless; he barely has any emotion at all. Compare that to the comics, where he's bursting with curiousity and energy. Thorn also has a weird-sounding voice and a lack of emotion in her acting that, when combined with the model complaints mentioned above, completely ruins her character compared to the comic. I vote that the current voice for the female characters continues to play Ben, but when you get enough money you should hire a new girl for Thorn. Fone's voice actor should either be assigned to a future character or just plain replaced.
I think Gran'ma Ben's voice wasn't good. She didn't scream once! I always imagined her like the little old lady in Tweety Bird cartoons, that starts going crazy on Sylvester as soon as she finds out the wrong-doings..!! There was no cool shot of Gran'ma Ben fighting the rat creatures, screaming at the top of her lungs...!
I really hope Lucius is going to be cool.
I really hope you bring more character cards out for each new game to promote the new people ... or just after release ( to promote demo downloads) so that you don't give away the characters before if you don't want to to. People could choose to play the new Throw Me A Bone game or just play the game and find out the new characters that way.
I REALLY didn't like Thorn much at all. She looked funny, not as intelligent as I thought - her face was funny.
Also the voice acting was way too Texan ...
She needs a clear, eloquent accent .. not so nasally!! She is a someone very special after all *read the book!!* .. she sounded way too much like Gran'ma Ben - to the voice actor, nothing personal, but I want someone else!!!!! I know it's the same person btw. Gran'ma Ben didn't sound...'crotchety' at all.. 'crabby'.. I don't know the word. Just not OLD enough really!! Need a smoker's voice, or something...
Although the game itself was beautiful, there are quite a few things I didn't like.
The episode was too damn short. Most of the puzzles were too easy and obvious. The running... ugh, the running. The running could have been summed up in a more elaborate cutscene to immerse the players in the story rather than take thier focus away by making them deal with jumping over rocks and trees, especially if they don't have the greatest mouse in the world. The small download is great, but if that means loss of quality, I'm all against it. I'd rather have something tangible and 100% quality. The sound seemed rather scratchy at times, and other times it was cut before it got to finish.
The animation, however, was excellent. It made interesting characters, such as the Rat Creatures, more interesting. The revolving camera angles were a nice touch, also. Now if there was a way to mix the charm and wit of Sam & Max, the environment and aura of Monkey Island, and the goofy goodness of DOTT, we'd have ourselves a instant classic.
I'm only critical because I care. You've shown what you can do, and I only see things getting better.
I was fairly pleased with the game, overall. Much of it was quite well done (I've been saying that adventure games needed to use cinematography the way this one does for years), but there are also a lot of issues, some niggling, some major. People seem nearly unanimous about what things in the game made them happy and unhappy, so I won't repeat them here, at the risk of diluting the main emphasis of this post.
But there are two very important things that adventure games are going to need to do if they're going to appeal to the mass market. One of them is described in detail here:
These early blog postings are the things that made me fall in love with Telltale for the first time. So why does Bone not at follow the philosophy that posting describes? Instead of having characters push the story forward, we get an obtrusive in-game hint system. Now, I'm not saying that the puzzles were particularly hard... But you shouldn't be able to get stuck enough to *need* a hint system, no matter how green a player you are. The game should realize that you're stuck, take you by the hand, and help you through. Failure should not be an option.
And that goes double for the action sequences. It doesn't make any sense for my character to die -- and then suddenly jump thirty seconds back in time. Over and over again. Either you shouldn't be able to lose at action sequences (the suspense should be kept up -- it should *look* like you're always about to die, but it should never actually happen) -- or, if you lose, you should face the consequences of that loss.
So that's the first thing -- eliminate the possibility of failure, without eliminating suspense, and leave the hidden-ink hint books back in the 1980s where they belong.
The second thing is sort of related to the first, and that's making failure interesting. In a linear, narrative adventure game, it's inevitable that you're going to do something wrong at some point -- where by "wrong," I mean something that doesn't help solve the puzzle or move the story along. Now, if you keep doing things that are wrong, as mentioned above, the game should notice and send a character to come and help you figure out what to do. But what about before that, when you're still experimenting?
For example, say I've retrieved an ear of corn from a corn barrel. Say that I've then decided that I don't really want this piece of corn anymore, so I click on the barrel to put it back. Fone Bone's response to this should absolutely not be anything along the lines of "I can't use these things together." He can put the corn back into the barrel. He can tell me *why* he doesn't want to put the corn back into the barrel -- I don't expect complete agency over a character in an Adventure, so having Fone refuse to do something is perfectly acceptable, assuming he gives me a good reason. He can even go into a song and dance number about barrels of corn. My point is that interesting things should happen, no matter what you do, or the game degenerates into something little better than a Jigsaw puzzle.
Of course, all this stuff would require a great deal more in terms of animation and voice assets, and how you'd fit all that into a reasonable download size is beyond me -- but figuring all that out is your jobs; I'm just the consumer. :-)
At any rate, thank you for making this game. I'm a big fan of Bone and a big fan of the Adventure genre, and you seem to be doing a great job at capturing the spirit of both, so far. Looking forward to your next one; hopefully you'll get all the kinks worked out, as time goes by.
I don't agree with you YMH. The best adventure games are IMHO the ones that are so darn hard that you become sleepless for months, crying because it feels impossible. The puzzles could be logical, but still mad hard. Monkey Island II was a good one! (as an example, I thought Curse of Monkey Island was waaay too easy, but it was ok since it was very fun and well done).
I don't want adventure games to help me. Not the slightest. But I suppose I'm hardcore or something.
Exactly. And games can't afford to target hardcore Adventure fans because... well, there aren't any, anymore. At least not very many.
What I personally am looking for is an interactive, character-heavy, story-driven immersive experience. I want to forget myself and get lost in a virtual world for a couple of hours. And while I do want to be challenged, I don't want to be frustrated -- frustration breaks the illusion.
Bone only frustrated me in a few places, but I can easily see that turning off someone who hasn't played an adventure game before. For an adventure game to become truely mass market, people are going to have to not be able to get stuck. And to keep people from getting stuck without breaking the immersion, whatever help the game gives them can't come from the UI in the form of a tip; it has to come from the game world.
I agree with Algotsson.
Besides, I don't think that mass market and adventure games go together.
I don't want the game to help me and take me by the hand and give me the solution. (I want a game, not a movie). I would become very frustrated if as soon as I am bloked at a puzzle, a character would show up and help me. I want to use my brain, even if it takes days. What makes adventure games interesting is that you can even play without a computer. Well, virtually play I mean. Indeed, if you are stuck at an evil puzzle, you can think about it on your way to work, in the bus or in the train, and then test your ides when you get back home hoping to progress slightly.
I think that, if implemented well, you wouldn't need to turn such a system off, because you wouldn't realize that it had been helping you. The whole point would be to make the experience more seamless, in direct contrast with a certain talking paperclip that pops up, out of context and out of nowhere, when all you're trying to do is write a letter.
Nor would its inclusion in a game turn that game into a movie -- the game would, in fact, be *less* like a movie than your typical Graphic Adventure is today, because it would be more responsive to your gameplay actions.
Apologies if I'm pulling this thread too far off topic. Or if I'm starting to repeat myself.
I think this game should one day be released on the shelves. I wanna own a proper copy of this game. Maybe after a couple of episodes have been out on the net then maybe a compilation.
I'm not happy about the cost of the game seeing that it can be completed so easily. But as long as the episodes aren't released too close together so that i'm splashing out on $80 on a few downloads that only last me half as long as a retail game then I'll be happy enough.
The voice acting is superb and it is wonderful to have a game that both myself (a 19 year old who has just been playing the mature 'Stilllife' before hand) can enjoy the game at the same level as my 7 year-old sister.
Played the demo... was entertaining, but ran horribly. But I imagine that's because I'm using Windows 98 instead of 2000 or XP. Even though the reported length of the game bothers me, it's something I'd purchase anyway if it ran properly on 98. Or if there was a Linux port.
Length of the game - The game is simply far too short. It ends as soon as any interest has begun to develop. I think this is a real shame, especially for those new to the series who will finish the episode with little reason to buy the next episode. Of course those of us who have read the book know that this is partly a weakness of Jeff Smith's original story - Out from Boneville is in itself the least compelling chapter of the Bone graphic novels, with the story becoming more and more interesting and exciting. However, as much as we'd like to, we can't use that as an excuse - the reality is that the original comic book cost a few dollars per issue, so there was some possibility that one would buy the second issue without much reservation, even having been not completely contented by the first, but in the case of the game we really don't have that luxury. The gamer has invested $20 in something that was very short, had very little fun in it, has no replayability, and doesn't really have much of a compelling story. Even for me, who knows and loves the Bone story, the game was far too short and lacked enough fun and replayability for me to be excited about a second episode or very willing to pay another $20 for a similar experience. . I would be really surprised if most gamers buy the second episode based on the first.
Basically the exact same thing I thought. I haven't read the Bone comic(s), and the characters and world were good, but there was hardly anything to DO in the game. You do less than 20 "quests" (for lack of a better word) in the whole game!
I didn't like the demo (for the same reasons as have been written many times), but I bought the game because I want to support you guys and help revitalize the adventure games industry. I do plan on buying the next episode, but ONLY because of what people have written here in the forums. What about those gamers who won't bother with the forums (over half, for sure)?
Based on the demo, most people won't buy the first episode, and for those that do, based on the first episode, most people won't buy any future episodes, so that's a large part of the market you've probaly already turned off. I really do hope there's enough left for TTG to continue, I want to see the company thrive, but honestly, this is a pretty rocky start...
I finally got around to buying bone and I have to say that I liked it a lot. I didn't think the game was to short, rather the puzzles were too easy. Also it sounds like Thorn's voice had been digitally compressed or altered somehow, and Phone's lines were a bit weak at some points. Other than that I thought it was great and the ending was very good. Keep up the good work!
Graphics sound etc are all fine, they were never going to be an issue.
Design of the game is fine, puzzles etc are all acceptable.
The length of the game is disapointing. As a fan of, Adventure games and a love for the developers at Telltale I WILL buy the next episode, and I tell you I feel a little dirty because the product doesnt merit it. This game simply isnt worth $20 (especially converted from my currency), and if I wasnt such a crazed up adventure game addict I wouldnt of even bothered posting here.
I am behind you, but dont abuse that trust and take us for granted.
I understand Telltale is an indy developer and cant be directly compared to the mainstream industry. Obviously this means you cant have cutting edge graphics and the rest, which I dont even want, I am happy with the standard you have set and wouldnt mind if it was even decreased. But you MUST have cutting edge content.
The Episodic model you are following should allow for more value for the consumer over long periods of time because it means for you smaller and cheaper dev cycles over long periods of time. So far all we have seen is less value.
$50 USD is the price of a Full Game.
$20 USD should at minimum have 2/5 the content of a Full Game. Not taking into consideration graphics, effects and the rest of that garbage, do you honestly believe that the content was anywhere close to 2/5 of a full priced game?
I didnt think so.
Scale back what you can to include extra content. Perhaps take a cue from Final Fantasy X and not dub minor characters unless it's an important scripted sequence, perhaps take a cue from Knights of the Old Republic and have a good portion of the minor cast speak another language allowing you to loop cheaply produced jibberish.
Revisit old locations, i'm willing to sacrifice a little quality for quantity (just dont go over board). I understand you dont want to make your games too difficult for the casual gamers, but that is what the help option is for. To extend the length of your game, cheat.. make your puzzles harder and if you must have the help contain almost complete spoilers.
The most important element to the episodic format is to leave the consumer at the end of each episode satisfied with what they have seen while simltantiously thirsting for more. To your credit I think everyone here is thirsting for more, but except for the easily pleased I doubt anyone is satisfied.
Scale back what you can to include extra content. Perhaps take a cue from Final Fantasy X and not dub minor characters unless it's an important scripted sequence, perhaps take a cue from Knights of the Old Republic and have a good portion of the minor cast speak another language allowing you to loop cheaply produced jibberish.
Revisit old locations, i'm willing to sacrifice a little quality for quantity.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. That is to say I disagree. Big time.
Video games are an artform of making things look larger and more complex than they really are.
Im sure the design wizards at Telltale could create a design doc where both quality and quantity are in balance.
Clearly im not suggesting they mass produce lengthy crap, but i'm not going to pretend that a balance has been struck.
And if voice actors are a significant cost (I have no data to suggest either one way or another), and we could gain an extra 2 hours worth of content by not dubbing every farmer and stranger you meet, then yes that is something I am prepared to sacrifice.... Hell some of the best advenutre games had no dubbing at all, and is reading really that bad?
And revisiting old locations if done properly can be rewarding and smart, your scepticism of the suggestion does a disservice to the wizards at Telltale. I believe if anyone can make it work they can.
However that said, I am suggesting they cheat but make it seem like they are not. Their smarter people than you or I. Everyone is asking them to work harder, I am merely suggesting they work smarter to strike that balance.
I was stunned and could not believe how short the game was, It was so short I'm not sure if it should be CALLED a game. For 20$ I vote... RIP OFF, MOST DEMOS ARE LONGER THAN THIS WHOLE GAME!
I've got every single book of Bone and I love the story and charactors. To be honest I feel cheated which is sad because I was looking forward to the other episodes. But will not be getting them.
In parting ... Enjoy my 20$ it will be the last.
Dialog is very important in an adventure game, moreso than in Final Fantasy, and to me the voice acting in an adventure game, even for the most minor character, is very important, and shouldn't be shortchanged and substituted with "cheaply produced jibberish." Perhaps that's just a personal thing, but even story-heavy games like Final Fantasy and KOTOR aren't necessarily story-driven and I feel that if a certain aspect of the game has to suffer for Bone 2 to be longer, that shouldn't be it.
Also I think your suggestion that the game will magically be two hours longer if minor characters aren't uniquely voiced is a little crazy. Voice work obviously can't be the top priority when outlining a budget, but I think your idea of the cost in terms of how it affects the gameplay is a little off. Plus, money, while certainly one of the most significant isn't the only factor that would make Bone short. The company is still small and their schedule tight. I don't much like the idea of stretching the game's quality thin just to gain more hours. But hey, this is just me getting my voice in.
And revisiting old locations if done properly can be rewarding and smart, your scepticism of the suggestion does a disservice to the wizards at Telltale. I believe if anyone can make it work they can.
My skepticism is not meant to disservice anyone. I think if anyone can make a game without sacrificing its quality, they can. I'm sure they'll take every measure they can to recycle resources and make the game great within a tight buget.
Man, I get all my ranting done here, don't I? But that's what this thread's for.
Dialog is very important in an adventure game, moreso than in Final Fantasy, and to me the voice acting in an adventure game, even for the most minor character, is very important, and shouldn't be shortchanged and substituted with "cheaply produced jibberish." Perhaps that's just a personal thing, but even story-heavy games like Final Fantasy and KOTOR aren't necessarily story-driven and I feel that if a certain aspect of the game has to suffer for Bone 2 to be longer, that shouldn't be it.
Dubbing Smubbing, bring on the text! The best adventure game ever produced still remains to be Monkey Island and it has never been dubbed. Obviously to appeal to this noob generation it requires dubbing, but I was simply suggesting that if triple A titles can get away with not dubbing every character and looping jibberish, despite being a different genre then people will forgive Telltale especially being a niche independant developer. (and whats this nonsense about RPG's not being story driven bah, play PlaneScape Torment).
Also I think your suggestion that the game will magically be two hours longer if minor characters aren't uniquely voiced is a little crazy. Voice work obviously can't be the top priority when outlining a budget, but I think your idea of the cost in terms of how it affects the gameplay is a little off. Plus, money, while certainly one of the most significant isn't the only factor that would make Bone short.
As I said, I have no figures to confirm or deny the cost of voice actors for Telltale. However if not dubbing every character (or at least not every line) could lead to extended gameplay than I am all for it. Take PlaneScape Torment for example, it had over 1 million lines of dialogue and is one of the most immersive games ever made. Black Isle studios only dubbed major events, if the script was limited to only what they could afford to dub, then the game would of only had a couple of thousand lines (if that!).
The company is still small and their schedule tight. I don't much like the idea of stretching the game's quality thin just to gain more hours. But hey, this is just me getting my voice in.
Indeed, but if it really does come down to it, I would rather stretch the game to gain more hours and have Telltale open for the next 50 years than have a four hour game and Telltale only last another 12 months from lack of interest in the short games they produce. Again, I think it is a faux suggestion that they have to noticebly decrease quality to increase content. I think they can be cleverer than that.
My skepticism is not meant to disservice anyone. I think if anyone can make a game without sacrificing its quality, they can. I'm sure they'll take every measure they can to recycle resources and make the game great within a tight buget.
I agree, but Telltales original vision was to produce these episodic 4 hour games to keep them financed. Without our complaints they will keep producing 4 hour titles. And quite frankly for $20 I dont feel that is value for money, and I think many others share that belief. Im happy for you if you believe the content is appropriate for the $ value (in fact I am jealous).
Having fully voiced characters has nothing to do with appealing to the "noob" generation. Monkey Island took advantage of the technology it had at the time, just like Bone should to the extent that they can. The general idea of making a game as if it were 15 years ago is lame.
Having fully voiced characters has nothing to do with appealing to the "noob" generation. Monkey Island took advantage of the technology it had at the time, just like Bone should to the extent that they can. The general idea of making a game as if it were 15 years ago is lame.
I am not suggesting they not dub the game, clearly they have to, to appeal to the current market. Nor am I suggesting they make a game like it was 15 years ago, dont pretend I argued that, thats a straw man arguement.
What I am suggesting is the consumers of this year and most likely of the next several years will accept not fully dubbed scripts and characters (made more so because this is an indy developer). Besides the obvious benefit of having larger and more complex scripts / conversation trees and directing more fund's to developing content instead of paying voice actors, is more content can fit. Telltale have made a pledge for now to keep their games no larger than 50 meg's and have said certain locations and models (winter) had to be taken out of the first game because of the space limitations. Perhaps cutting back on some dubbing could allow them to squeeze more content into the 50 megs (or perhaps not, again I have no data).
However ideally every character and every line be dubbed, I am not disputing that. But if cuts must be made to increase the depth and breath, (if the current crop of games are anything to go by) the consumer is prepared to make that sacrifice.
Again this is just one suggestion, i'm sure the talented people at Telltale and the creative people of this forum could suggest better methodolgy than I ever could that allows them to expand their content while still being a sustainable business.
I am not suggesting they not dub the game, clearly they have to, to appeal to the current market.
Again, appeal to the current market? This suggests a few things about why you think voice acting in adventure games exist.
Anyway, I didn't mean for this to turn into a voice acting debate, because in the long run it's of course secondary to the game itself - personally I found the voice acting in Out from Boneville to be one of the game's strengths, and it would be a shame to give it less attention in the future. Basically I think you're blaming the wrong thing for Bone's short length. Size is certainly a factor, but if you'd take a look at the Bone data on your hard drive, I think the size of the individual voice files may address some of your concerns. If your ears didn't notice playing the game, they compressed the hell out of them for the download size.
Nor am I suggesting they make a game like it was 15 years ago, dont pretend I argued that, thats a straw man arguement.[/b]
When you use a term like "noob generation," it's difficult to avoid mistakes in interpretation.
What I am suggesting is the consumers of this year and most likely of the next several years will accept not fully dubbed scripts and characters (made more so because this is an indy developer). Besides the obvious benefit of having larger and more complex scripts / conversation trees and directing more fund's to developing content instead of paying voice actors, is more content can fit. Telltale have made a pledge for now to keep their games no larger than 50 meg's and have said certain locations and models (winter) had to be taken out of the first game because of the space limitations.
I'd like to know if any of the scripts in Out from Boneville had to be truncated because of voice actor costs or space limitations. And yes, winter scenes weren't used because of space limitations, but I don't see how it's directly because of voice files. It's all the various factors combined that present the challenge. It just sounds like you're saying that because you don't particularly mind losing VO it's the general viewpoint of the consumer. But you do, after all, have to be careful around me and my overwrought rhetoric BS.
Blah, I've said how I feel about voice acting - it's highly important. There is no doubt that how Telltale handles the second Bone game will be interesting to see. They've promised a longer game, but with a similar schedule and file size as Out from Boneville, what will have to suffer?
Without passing judgement; Sound, Music, Graphics, 3D Graphics, Full Motion Video are examples of technology that have slowly emerged. Certain genre leaders introduced (or at least pinoneered) these technologies as gimicks and it slowly raised the level of expectations of the consumer when it comes to presentation. Clearly to appeal to the current market, they must atleast appeal to there level of expectations.
I'd like to know if any of the scripts in Out from Boneville had to be truncated because of voice actor costs or space limitations.
I doubt they were, Telltale hit their target length exactly, im confident the writers knew the limitations posed on the script before writing it. But thats beside the point, I am toying with the idea that by not requireing dubbing the writers have a chance to really flesh out the story (a common criticism I have seen in this thread).
And yes, winter scenes weren't used because of space limitations, but I don't see how it's directly because of voice files.
Of course I wasnt suggesting that winter was taken out because of a direct result of including voice files, another straw man.
It's all the various factors combined that present the challenge. It just sounds like you're saying that because you don't particularly mind losing VO it's the general viewpoint of the consumer.
Here is our great failing. I am not suggesting my viewpoint is the view of "the consumer", I am arguing that the consumers level of expectations does not necessarily imply the full script be dubbed, by citing other genre leaders as examples such as FFX and KoToR.
They've promised a longer game, but with a similar schedule and file size as Out from Boneville, what will have to suffer?
Have they, got a link? If this is true, then my work here is done.
Check various interviews. They've said they're aiming for a Spring 2006 release for episode two (with an average of 5-6 months between episodes). That would make the schedule fairly close in size to the first episode. And here they say future episodes will be longer.
And yes, winter scenes weren't used because of space limitations, but I don't see how it's directly because of voice files.
Of course I wasnt suggesting that winter was taken out because of a direct result of including voice files, another straw man.
What? You made a direct connection between the space limitations caused by voices and the lack of winter scenes. Are you hoping that if you keep asserting something it will be true?
Check various interviews. They've said they're aiming for a Spring 2006 release for episode two (with an average of 5-6 months between episodes). That would make the schedule fairly close in size to the first episode. And here they say future episodes will be longer.
Excellent, thanks.
"Many gamers have complained about the short length of Bone: Out from Boneville. Will the next episodes be longer?
Yes"
hehe, touchy, arent they, lol. I await the next game then. ^^
What? You made a direct connection between the space limitations caused by voices and the lack of winter scenes. Are you hoping that if you keep asserting something it will be true?
I never suggested there was a direct correlation between the lack of winter scenes and the appearence of dubbing. I suggested that perhaps (or perhaps not) removing some dubbing could allow for more content.... thats very different to making a definitive assertion that by chosing to dub the game, winter was cancelled. I would never argue such foolishness.
okay I finally finished the game!! hey i been busy..and you may as well make the game last..
I have to say I only really enjoyed it when I played it with my 7 year old nephew and 5 year old niece.. by myself it was way too easy having a difficulty level of 2 out of 6 is just not a game I like to play..I want to be challenged.. Playing with kids tho is fun..they found the game really funny and really enjoyed it and it was a great experience playing with them
PROS!
voice acting
controls/movement
in game help hints
great game to play with children
digital download..quick and easy
price(australian $25..games retail for $100 here)
the inventory was back
dialogue tree(the conversations with all the characters was first class, and the different options was great! then being able to talk with multiple characters at a dinner table..i mean that was really putting yourself into the game for an interesting choice of conversation!! loved it)
graphics( i though the characters looked pretty good in 3d)
mini games(i did enjoy as a break the hide n seek game..and the puzzle to get across the river)
CONS
too short! way too short..
too easy! for an adventure game I cant really play a game thats rated 2 out of 6
wasn't a great use of inventory items(didnt have many 2 use)
stuck too much to the source material
the scenes/enevironments did not have enough to play with.. I want to explore a world didnt get much chance to do that when i could only click or look at or use about 3 or 4 things in one location
mini games( well running away from the enemy with the mouse really did not do it for me..)
Overall
I understand Telltale want to tell more stories..and that is certainly lacking in todays gaming.. but i think they need more balance.. The game was a lot story not much game.. I'd really like to see more things to do or something I could attempt to do in the next game.. The difficulty level won't have me rushing out to buy the next installment..i will get it for my nephew tho he cant wait to play the next one
Comments
I don't think that the puzzles in Syberia 1 were so much harder than Bone's ones.
The problem is that Syberia gives the player more freedom of movement and many locations, scattering the necessary objects through them, whereas too often Bone gives you the items and/or infos you need ALL IN THE SAME LOCATION. Sometimes the game even blocks you from getting back to previous locations.
I don't want harder puzzles, I want more freedom and interactivity! I like mini-games, because they are a clever way to avoid inventory-based puzzles (when these could feel forced in the flow of the story) and they don't require action skills. The "escaping from the rat creatures" puzzle/minigame was brilliant and felt totally story-based, which is the real MAIN quality of a Lucasarts adventure game.
Dom
As you said, a game with 100% inventory puzzles would be boring. But take the spitting contest in MI2 : It is a mini game, but you need some thinking in order to succeed, and you need some stuff you pick up in other locations. This adds to the interest of the game and makes it last longer. I remember when I was about 14 and playing the LEC adventure games, I used to get stuck days at puzzles. We were several friends playing, and at school we were talking about our discoveries, like “I’ve found a way to spit at a longer distance, but it is still not enough†etc. And when you were stuck, you still had a big area you could visit, and spend time talking with the many NPC (trying all the stupid lines of dialogue), those were the best moment of the games.
Unfortunately, you cannot do that with bone, because
1) you are never stuck for a long time due to the low difficulty of puzzles
2) But if you are, you can not spend time traveling around and talking with the NPC, because your liberty is limited to a very small area. That is why I agree with the term semi-interactive fiction to describe Bone. I liked it, though, but was a little bit deceived.
Just wanted to share my experience with you after completing the first Bone game from Telltale.
First of all, thanks to the staff at Telltale for getting this game out so quickly! Anyways, here are my impressions.
General Pros
The Bone license is great.
Good, wholesome family fun.
No blood, guts or twitchy action sequences (except for the locust/rat monster sequences).
Specific Pros
Ted minigame - lots of fun, i need to go back and play that one.
Bone expressions - the little eyebrows are great
Voice acting and artwork - scenery and most characters really got me into the game.
Specific Cons
Thorn character model felt incomplete - could be because of limited room for more complex textures?
The dinner table conversation made me YAWN...Thorn's responses just felt really flat.
Running sequence minigame - whew, that was a bummer - the control
scheme was rough - i wanted to throw my mouse across the room! please allow control with a keyboard in the future :-)
length/price ratio - more puzzles please, more ted like minigames - I just put down a 20 dollar bill, please give me a 5-7 hour game. OR, give me a chance to buy a bunch of episodes for a slight discount.
Overall, I think Telltale has done a good job with this first release. My expectations for part 2 are much higher now. I've noticed that the staff is reading and responding to many of the comments. I hope many of the criticisms will be addressed before the next Bone game is released.
Thanks.
-lm
I think Gran'ma Ben's voice wasn't good. She didn't scream once! I always imagined her like the little old lady in Tweety Bird cartoons, that starts going crazy on Sylvester as soon as she finds out the wrong-doings..!! There was no cool shot of Gran'ma Ben fighting the rat creatures, screaming at the top of her lungs...!
I really hope Lucius is going to be cool.
I really hope you bring more character cards out for each new game to promote the new people ... or just after release ( to promote demo downloads) so that you don't give away the characters before if you don't want to to. People could choose to play the new Throw Me A Bone game or just play the game and find out the new characters that way.
I REALLY didn't like Thorn much at all. She looked funny, not as intelligent as I thought - her face was funny.
Also the voice acting was way too Texan ...
She needs a clear, eloquent accent .. not so nasally!! She is a someone very special after all *read the book!!* .. she sounded way too much like Gran'ma Ben - to the voice actor, nothing personal, but I want someone else!!!!! I know it's the same person btw. Gran'ma Ben didn't sound...'crotchety' at all.. 'crabby'.. I don't know the word. Just not OLD enough really!! Need a smoker's voice, or something...
The episode was too damn short. Most of the puzzles were too easy and obvious. The running... ugh, the running. The running could have been summed up in a more elaborate cutscene to immerse the players in the story rather than take thier focus away by making them deal with jumping over rocks and trees, especially if they don't have the greatest mouse in the world. The small download is great, but if that means loss of quality, I'm all against it. I'd rather have something tangible and 100% quality. The sound seemed rather scratchy at times, and other times it was cut before it got to finish.
The animation, however, was excellent. It made interesting characters, such as the Rat Creatures, more interesting. The revolving camera angles were a nice touch, also. Now if there was a way to mix the charm and wit of Sam & Max, the environment and aura of Monkey Island, and the goofy goodness of DOTT, we'd have ourselves a instant classic.
I'm only critical because I care.
But there are two very important things that adventure games are going to need to do if they're going to appeal to the mass market. One of them is described in detail here:
http://www.telltalegames.com/blogs/telltale/?permalink=E0C68CA83C4B053B8F6CB1DE5C3D1D8A.txt&smm=y
These early blog postings are the things that made me fall in love with Telltale for the first time. So why does Bone not at follow the philosophy that posting describes? Instead of having characters push the story forward, we get an obtrusive in-game hint system. Now, I'm not saying that the puzzles were particularly hard... But you shouldn't be able to get stuck enough to *need* a hint system, no matter how green a player you are. The game should realize that you're stuck, take you by the hand, and help you through. Failure should not be an option.
And that goes double for the action sequences. It doesn't make any sense for my character to die -- and then suddenly jump thirty seconds back in time. Over and over again. Either you shouldn't be able to lose at action sequences (the suspense should be kept up -- it should *look* like you're always about to die, but it should never actually happen) -- or, if you lose, you should face the consequences of that loss.
So that's the first thing -- eliminate the possibility of failure, without eliminating suspense, and leave the hidden-ink hint books back in the 1980s where they belong.
The second thing is sort of related to the first, and that's making failure interesting. In a linear, narrative adventure game, it's inevitable that you're going to do something wrong at some point -- where by "wrong," I mean something that doesn't help solve the puzzle or move the story along. Now, if you keep doing things that are wrong, as mentioned above, the game should notice and send a character to come and help you figure out what to do. But what about before that, when you're still experimenting?
For example, say I've retrieved an ear of corn from a corn barrel. Say that I've then decided that I don't really want this piece of corn anymore, so I click on the barrel to put it back. Fone Bone's response to this should absolutely not be anything along the lines of "I can't use these things together." He can put the corn back into the barrel. He can tell me *why* he doesn't want to put the corn back into the barrel -- I don't expect complete agency over a character in an Adventure, so having Fone refuse to do something is perfectly acceptable, assuming he gives me a good reason. He can even go into a song and dance number about barrels of corn. My point is that interesting things should happen, no matter what you do, or the game degenerates into something little better than a Jigsaw puzzle.
Of course, all this stuff would require a great deal more in terms of animation and voice assets, and how you'd fit all that into a reasonable download size is beyond me -- but figuring all that out is your jobs; I'm just the consumer. :-)
At any rate, thank you for making this game. I'm a big fan of Bone and a big fan of the Adventure genre, and you seem to be doing a great job at capturing the spirit of both, so far. Looking forward to your next one; hopefully you'll get all the kinks worked out, as time goes by.
I don't want adventure games to help me. Not the slightest. But I suppose I'm hardcore or something.
What I personally am looking for is an interactive, character-heavy, story-driven immersive experience. I want to forget myself and get lost in a virtual world for a couple of hours. And while I do want to be challenged, I don't want to be frustrated -- frustration breaks the illusion.
Bone only frustrated me in a few places, but I can easily see that turning off someone who hasn't played an adventure game before. For an adventure game to become truely mass market, people are going to have to not be able to get stuck. And to keep people from getting stuck without breaking the immersion, whatever help the game gives them can't come from the UI in the form of a tip; it has to come from the game world.
Besides, I don't think that mass market and adventure games go together.
I don't want the game to help me and take me by the hand and give me the solution. (I want a game, not a movie). I would become very frustrated if as soon as I am bloked at a puzzle, a character would show up and help me. I want to use my brain, even if it takes days. What makes adventure games interesting is that you can even play without a computer. Well, virtually play I mean. Indeed, if you are stuck at an evil puzzle, you can think about it on your way to work, in the bus or in the train, and then test your ides when you get back home hoping to progress slightly.
Nor would its inclusion in a game turn that game into a movie -- the game would, in fact, be *less* like a movie than your typical Graphic Adventure is today, because it would be more responsive to your gameplay actions.
Apologies if I'm pulling this thread too far off topic. Or if I'm starting to repeat myself.
I'm not happy about the cost of the game seeing that it can be completed so easily. But as long as the episodes aren't released too close together so that i'm splashing out on $80 on a few downloads that only last me half as long as a retail game then I'll be happy enough.
The voice acting is superb and it is wonderful to have a game that both myself (a 19 year old who has just been playing the mature 'Stilllife' before hand) can enjoy the game at the same level as my 7 year-old sister.
Keep the work up guys.
Basically the exact same thing I thought. I haven't read the Bone comic(s), and the characters and world were good, but there was hardly anything to DO in the game. You do less than 20 "quests" (for lack of a better word) in the whole game!
I didn't like the demo (for the same reasons as have been written many times), but I bought the game because I want to support you guys and help revitalize the adventure games industry. I do plan on buying the next episode, but ONLY because of what people have written here in the forums. What about those gamers who won't bother with the forums (over half, for sure)?
Based on the demo, most people won't buy the first episode, and for those that do, based on the first episode, most people won't buy any future episodes, so that's a large part of the market you've probaly already turned off. I really do hope there's enough left for TTG to continue, I want to see the company thrive, but honestly, this is a pretty rocky start...
Design of the game is fine, puzzles etc are all acceptable.
The length of the game is disapointing. As a fan of, Adventure games and a love for the developers at Telltale I WILL buy the next episode, and I tell you I feel a little dirty because the product doesnt merit it. This game simply isnt worth $20 (especially converted from my currency), and if I wasnt such a crazed up adventure game addict I wouldnt of even bothered posting here.
I am behind you, but dont abuse that trust and take us for granted.
I understand Telltale is an indy developer and cant be directly compared to the mainstream industry. Obviously this means you cant have cutting edge graphics and the rest, which I dont even want, I am happy with the standard you have set and wouldnt mind if it was even decreased. But you MUST have cutting edge content.
The Episodic model you are following should allow for more value for the consumer over long periods of time because it means for you smaller and cheaper dev cycles over long periods of time. So far all we have seen is less value.
$50 USD is the price of a Full Game.
$20 USD should at minimum have 2/5 the content of a Full Game. Not taking into consideration graphics, effects and the rest of that garbage, do you honestly believe that the content was anywhere close to 2/5 of a full priced game?
I didnt think so.
Scale back what you can to include extra content. Perhaps take a cue from Final Fantasy X and not dub minor characters unless it's an important scripted sequence, perhaps take a cue from Knights of the Old Republic and have a good portion of the minor cast speak another language allowing you to loop cheaply produced jibberish.
Revisit old locations, i'm willing to sacrifice a little quality for quantity (just dont go over board). I understand you dont want to make your games too difficult for the casual gamers, but that is what the help option is for. To extend the length of your game, cheat.. make your puzzles harder and if you must have the help contain almost complete spoilers.
The most important element to the episodic format is to leave the consumer at the end of each episode satisfied with what they have seen while simltantiously thirsting for more. To your credit I think everyone here is thirsting for more, but except for the easily pleased I doubt anyone is satisfied.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. That is to say I disagree. Big time.
Im sure the design wizards at Telltale could create a design doc where both quality and quantity are in balance.
Clearly im not suggesting they mass produce lengthy crap, but i'm not going to pretend that a balance has been struck.
And if voice actors are a significant cost (I have no data to suggest either one way or another), and we could gain an extra 2 hours worth of content by not dubbing every farmer and stranger you meet, then yes that is something I am prepared to sacrifice.... Hell some of the best advenutre games had no dubbing at all, and is reading really that bad?
And revisiting old locations if done properly can be rewarding and smart, your scepticism of the suggestion does a disservice to the wizards at Telltale. I believe if anyone can make it work they can.
However that said, I am suggesting they cheat but make it seem like they are not. Their smarter people than you or I. Everyone is asking them to work harder, I am merely suggesting they work smarter to strike that balance.
In the end we will all benefit.
I was stunned and could not believe how short the game was, It was so short I'm not sure if it should be CALLED a game. For 20$ I vote... RIP OFF, MOST DEMOS ARE LONGER THAN THIS WHOLE GAME!
I've got every single book of Bone and I love the story and charactors. To be honest I feel cheated which is sad because I was looking forward to the other episodes. But will not be getting them.
In parting ... Enjoy my 20$ it will be the last.
Also I think your suggestion that the game will magically be two hours longer if minor characters aren't uniquely voiced is a little crazy. Voice work obviously can't be the top priority when outlining a budget, but I think your idea of the cost in terms of how it affects the gameplay is a little off. Plus, money, while certainly one of the most significant isn't the only factor that would make Bone short. The company is still small and their schedule tight. I don't much like the idea of stretching the game's quality thin just to gain more hours. But hey, this is just me getting my voice in.
My skepticism is not meant to disservice anyone. I think if anyone can make a game without sacrificing its quality, they can. I'm sure they'll take every measure they can to recycle resources and make the game great within a tight buget.
Man, I get all my ranting done here, don't I? But that's what this thread's for.
As I said, I have no figures to confirm or deny the cost of voice actors for Telltale. However if not dubbing every character (or at least not every line) could lead to extended gameplay than I am all for it. Take PlaneScape Torment for example, it had over 1 million lines of dialogue and is one of the most immersive games ever made. Black Isle studios only dubbed major events, if the script was limited to only what they could afford to dub, then the game would of only had a couple of thousand lines (if that!).
Indeed, but if it really does come down to it, I would rather stretch the game to gain more hours and have Telltale open for the next 50 years than have a four hour game and Telltale only last another 12 months from lack of interest in the short games they produce. Again, I think it is a faux suggestion that they have to noticebly decrease quality to increase content. I think they can be cleverer than that.
I agree, but Telltales original vision was to produce these episodic 4 hour games to keep them financed. Without our complaints they will keep producing 4 hour titles. And quite frankly for $20 I dont feel that is value for money, and I think many others share that belief. Im happy for you if you believe the content is appropriate for the $ value (in fact I am jealous).
What I am suggesting is the consumers of this year and most likely of the next several years will accept not fully dubbed scripts and characters (made more so because this is an indy developer). Besides the obvious benefit of having larger and more complex scripts / conversation trees and directing more fund's to developing content instead of paying voice actors, is more content can fit. Telltale have made a pledge for now to keep their games no larger than 50 meg's and have said certain locations and models (winter) had to be taken out of the first game because of the space limitations. Perhaps cutting back on some dubbing could allow them to squeeze more content into the 50 megs (or perhaps not, again I have no data).
However ideally every character and every line be dubbed, I am not disputing that. But if cuts must be made to increase the depth and breath, (if the current crop of games are anything to go by) the consumer is prepared to make that sacrifice.
Again this is just one suggestion, i'm sure the talented people at Telltale and the creative people of this forum could suggest better methodolgy than I ever could that allows them to expand their content while still being a sustainable business.
Again, appeal to the current market? This suggests a few things about why you think voice acting in adventure games exist.
Anyway, I didn't mean for this to turn into a voice acting debate, because in the long run it's of course secondary to the game itself - personally I found the voice acting in Out from Boneville to be one of the game's strengths, and it would be a shame to give it less attention in the future. Basically I think you're blaming the wrong thing for Bone's short length. Size is certainly a factor, but if you'd take a look at the Bone data on your hard drive, I think the size of the individual voice files may address some of your concerns. If your ears didn't notice playing the game, they compressed the hell out of them for the download size.
When you use a term like "noob generation," it's difficult to avoid mistakes in interpretation.
I'd like to know if any of the scripts in Out from Boneville had to be truncated because of voice actor costs or space limitations. And yes, winter scenes weren't used because of space limitations, but I don't see how it's directly because of voice files. It's all the various factors combined that present the challenge. It just sounds like you're saying that because you don't particularly mind losing VO it's the general viewpoint of the consumer. But you do, after all, have to be careful around me and my overwrought rhetoric BS.
Blah, I've said how I feel about voice acting - it's highly important. There is no doubt that how Telltale handles the second Bone game will be interesting to see. They've promised a longer game, but with a similar schedule and file size as Out from Boneville, what will have to suffer?
I doubt they were, Telltale hit their target length exactly, im confident the writers knew the limitations posed on the script before writing it. But thats beside the point, I am toying with the idea that by not requireing dubbing the writers have a chance to really flesh out the story (a common criticism I have seen in this thread).
Of course I wasnt suggesting that winter was taken out because of a direct result of including voice files, another straw man.
Here is our great failing. I am not suggesting my viewpoint is the view of "the consumer", I am arguing that the consumers level of expectations does not necessarily imply the full script be dubbed, by citing other genre leaders as examples such as FFX and KoToR.
Have they, got a link? If this is true, then my work here is done.
What? You made a direct connection between the space limitations caused by voices and the lack of winter scenes. Are you hoping that if you keep asserting something it will be true?
"Many gamers have complained about the short length of Bone: Out from Boneville. Will the next episodes be longer?
Yes"
hehe, touchy, arent they, lol. I await the next game then. ^^
I never suggested there was a direct correlation between the lack of winter scenes and the appearence of dubbing. I suggested that perhaps (or perhaps not) removing some dubbing could allow for more content.... thats very different to making a definitive assertion that by chosing to dub the game, winter was cancelled. I would never argue such foolishness.
At any rate, its semantical argument at best.
I have to say I only really enjoyed it when I played it with my 7 year old nephew and 5 year old niece.. by myself it was way too easy having a difficulty level of 2 out of 6 is just not a game I like to play..I want to be challenged.. Playing with kids tho is fun..they found the game really funny and really enjoyed it and it was a great experience playing with them
PROS!
voice acting
controls/movement
in game help hints
great game to play with children
digital download..quick and easy
price(australian $25..games retail for $100 here)
the inventory was back
dialogue tree(the conversations with all the characters was first class, and the different options was great! then being able to talk with multiple characters at a dinner table..i mean that was really putting yourself into the game for an interesting choice of conversation!! loved it)
graphics( i though the characters looked pretty good in 3d)
mini games(i did enjoy as a break the hide n seek game..and the puzzle to get across the river)
CONS
too short! way too short..
too easy! for an adventure game I cant really play a game thats rated 2 out of 6
wasn't a great use of inventory items(didnt have many 2 use)
stuck too much to the source material
the scenes/enevironments did not have enough to play with.. I want to explore a world didnt get much chance to do that when i could only click or look at or use about 3 or 4 things in one location
mini games( well running away from the enemy with the mouse really did not do it for me..)
Overall
I understand Telltale want to tell more stories..and that is certainly lacking in todays gaming.. but i think they need more balance.. The game was a lot story not much game.. I'd really like to see more things to do or something I could attempt to do in the next game.. The difficulty level won't have me rushing out to buy the next installment..i will get it for my nephew tho he cant wait to play the next one