On Monkey Island being cartoonish
I've noticed a lot of posters have been claiming that Monkey Island is not cartoonish. That maybe the third one is, but the real, Ron Gilbert ones are not. So I created this thread (yes, a full thread, to draw your attention).
This is a scene from Monkey Island 2. I want you to see how Guybrush escapes LeChuck's fortress. Specifically, the point at which Guybrush lights a match.
Very realistic, isn't it?
Monkey Island is a cartoon, and always has been. And for those of you about to mention SMI's close-ups:
This is a scene from Monkey Island 2. I want you to see how Guybrush escapes LeChuck's fortress. Specifically, the point at which Guybrush lights a match.
Very realistic, isn't it?
Monkey Island is a cartoon, and always has been. And for those of you about to mention SMI's close-ups:
.Ron Gilbert wrote:I was always bothered by [the] close-ups. While they were great art, I never felt they matched the style of the rest of the game. Not sure how I feel about them 20 years later
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The first two Monkey Island games had cartoony elements, like most VGA adventure games.
But they do have more realistic graphics than the later installments.
I would say the same for the Leisure Suit Larry games... they're all cartoony, but the first three are less so than the other ones.
Whoah, I'm glad they still made it into the game! I absolutely love the closeups in that game!
To say that the only consideration is cartoony or not cartoony is to look at things in a two dimensional way, but the truth of the matter is that, like comic books, Monkey Island was never really realistic or cartoony, it was always somewhere in between. If you want a cartoony adventure, look at Day of the Tentacle, then compare Day of the Tentacle with The secret of Monkey Island and Lechuck's Revenge. If you do that, the differences become rather obvious.
So no, the first two Monkey Island games were not cartoony, to simply imply the one end of the spectrum, because in doing that we might as well say that they were as cartoony as Day of the Tentacle (which they're not). We also can't say they're real-as-life art either, because that's just as absurd and they're obviously not.
And for what it's wroth, there were parts of Lechuck's Revenge which were just as vibrant as Tales of Monkey Island. And speaking of Tales of Monkey Island, do I find that really cartoony? No, not really. It is perhaps a touch more toward cartoony than Lechuck's Revenge was, but not so much. And I don't feel that Tales of Monkey Island is nearly as cartoony as Curse of Monkey Island.
Whereas Curse is nearer the Day of the Tentacle end of the cartoony scale, I think that Tales of Monkey Island actually leans toward the Lechuck's Revenge style. But that's just my opinion.
That said, I do like that what sets the Monkey Island games apart from a lot of other comedy adventure games is that it has a serious tone to it along with the jokes. The characters more often than not seem to believe that they're in a serious world, doing important things, even if there are wisecracks and grog machines everywhere. When LeChuck shows up in the underground tunnels, it's scary! (Or was to me!) Contrast that with Sam & Max, where everyone with few exceptions is in on the fact that they're all inside a giant joke.
That doesn't mean that stylistically it doesn't have a little cartoon to it! For instance:
* pixelated blobs (kq1,2, MI1,larry1-3)
* better looking pixelated blobs (MI2,KQ3,4)
*trying hard to look realistic (KQ5,6, Larry5,6)
*realizing realism sucks and taking a whole new approach, make it cartoony (Larry7, KQ7,MI3,Discworld2)
*realizing that even tho those games looked great cartoony, they are way too hard and expensive to produce that way, so they turn to 3d or just give up all together. (Larry8,KQ8,Discworld_Noir,MI4)
Maniac Mansion was much more cartoony, even though it has far more simplistic graphics.
I think all the games had it to a certain degree -- as 3 got towards its finale they started bringing it back in a way that made me happy, and/but no matter what story he's in, Guybrush is going to be taking it more seriously than most comedy game protagonists -- but it was for sure ingrained in the stories of 1 and 2 more.
That's what I was trying to get at too, Monkey Island (the first two) did have more serious tones to them, and that's what allowed them to walk the line between seriousness and just being a cartoon, outright. And that's even detailed in those sprites, beautifully.
And actually, that spot between cartoony and a more serious/realistic approach is what I like best, and I feel that Tales of Monkey Island does well to capture that point too. It isn't cartoony in the way that Sam & Max (old and new), Day of the Tentacle, and so on are, it's got a more serious theme, but it's cartoony in its own way.
Monkey Island isn't an obvious kind of cartoony, it's like the smart kid cartoons of old, like Mysterious Cities of Gold and Ulysses 31.
If that makes any sense at all.
lol, good post
it has a lot to do with the current trend also, like it was fmv. now, we can see that disney is doing again traditional animated cartoons, so who knows, could be applied to adventure games too.
monkey 3 and 4 maybe feel more cartoonish also because of some exaggerated parts like clouds, character designs and various objects as fort, waves and others
This even I would second, and I'm no great fan of CMI.
I think part of the perception that the first two games were much less cartoony comes from the fact that, well, there's just only so much you can do with a handful of pixels, which in some ways limits how stylized the result can really look. Who knows how much more pronounced the style of the first two games might have been had the artists been able to work with the level of detail some of the later adventure games did? Look at those semi-closeups in MI2 (the Phatt Island dock, Governor Phatt, the explosion of LeChuck's fortress) - when the artists had more detail to work with, things tended to get a bit more exaggerated/cartoony, which is probably revealing about the direction they were going for. (The VGA closeups for MI1 were done after the fact and did not involve the original team.) That you find the relative realism of MI1/MI2 to carry more "atmosphere" may have been completely incidental to the artists' intentions! I think that all of the first three games are steeped in atmosphere, personally.
Don't get me wrong, the other reason CMI looks so different from the first two is because a conscious decision was made for the game to look a certain way, but that was a choice the artists of the first two didn't have, or at least had a lot less control over, so who's to say that the same folks who made the early games wouldn't have stylized the game a whole lot more if they could have? The artists who made DOTT are not the same that made Maniac Mansion, and the artists of MI1: SE are not the ones who made the original game, but the fact that their re-interpretations of an existing universe ended up more stylized than the inspiration when armed with more resources probably isn't as inappropriate as it might seem at first glance.
I, personally, detest the term 'cartoony'. I prefer 'exaggerated' or 'stylized' when discussing about visual design.
PS: thank you Jake for the MI2 sprites.
Well when I say "cartoony," I do not necessarily mean "for kids," just like Pixar and Studio Ghibli don't make for-kids films. There's always a dark undertone in Monkey Island, usually around the time LeChuck comes-in. Have you listened to some of his backstories in Curse?
A lot of people are pretending otherwise, though. I can understand their point of view when they say that LeChuck's Revenge goes really dark by the end, only for the sequel to start-off all bright and shiny, but I don't agree that's necessarily a bad thing. Monkey Island always had a very cartoony element to it (especially when Guybrush starts goofing around). He really only goes serious when Elaine is in danger. Even when LeChuck is around, he still has time to give him a wedgie.
Chuck Jones/Day of the Tentacle it ain't, but there's definitely a cartoonish element in there, of which CMI is a natural evolution.
Now imagine if your entire desktop was displayed in that tiny, tiny space. "But I couldn't see anything!" I hear you exclaim...this is the challenge that had to be overcome in the early 90s to make games like this possible. Given what they had to work with, there is simply no way that the team could have made the graphics look either more "realistic" or "cartoony" than what we were given.
Now personally I always enjoyed the close-up screens from SMI. They are, as Ron said, beautiful artwork. Yet just as he said, they also don't flow very smoothly into the rest of the game. In the entire game of SMI there are close-ups for 1) Mancomb Seepgood in the SCUMM Bar, 2) Elaine in the Governor's Mansion, 3) Carla (the Swordmaster) outside of her house, 4) Captain Smirk outside of his house, and 5) Guybrush as he peers in on the vicious, man-eating parrot. That's it. Of the entire game, that's the close-up shots we got.
Anyone trying to demand that "MI should be realistic" based solely off of these 5 scenes from the first game is a bit off their rocker IMO. Now I have said in the past that with SMI and LCR that the graphics style did (largely) aim to be very realistic. Because they did. Yet CMI, "cartoony" graphics and all is still one of the highest-rated MI games amongst the fans.
I'm tired of hearing everyone moan and complain about the graphics style. If anything TMI is more realistic than EFMI, so that must then be considered as a step in the right direction.
And if I hear someone say that "MI was supposed to be 2D" one more time...I hope you have 911 on speed dial coz somebody's about to get beat within an inch of their life. Please, I beg of you, any of you: Show me where Ron, or Steve, or Tim, or any of the original team ever came out and in an interview said "Monkey Island was always intended to be a two-dimensional game."
Just because the graphics style has changed does not mean that the atmosphere has changed with it. I do accept and fully understand that the graphics have a large part to do with the way we perceive the game. But whether it's that old pixelated look or full 3D graphics, aren't they just there as a medium to portray what's taking place? If it's that important to you...perhaps you would be happier if once it's released someone made TMI into an IF game? Then you wouldn't have to worry about graphics at all! The graphics would be as "realistic" or "cartoony" as you imagine them to be!
To me the TMI models are definitely a step-up from the EFMI models. That is of course just my opinion, but are we really that blindly devoted to those pixels that anything higher than 320x200 resolution is a sure sign of witchcraft and demonic influences?
That's a bit extreme, but then so are some of the complaints against the 3D graphics. Honestly...if it bothers you that much...play with your eyes closed.
P.S. Sorry, I get a bit long-winded.
What would that game look like?
that would just mean the SoMI would've looked like CMI, and the rest after that would've been 3d. everybody loses
Would there have been a different, darker art style
I think it has more to say than you think. How they portray the characters has a lot to say of how they want the atmosphere to be. You don't find a stylized look of the characters in Superman or Batman-comics. You don't find more realistic versions of Tom & Jerry. In many cases, the way the characters look, matches the feel of the story being told, to express the atmosphere they want. The CMI-look don't match the feel of the first games, especially not the second one. The general feel of it was darker, and a cartoon-LeChuck wouldn't have felt as scary (something I think it a big deal).
That being said, I don't complain about the style of SMI:SE. Of course, Guybrush could have been better, but the general style is okay with me. It's more stylized, but not that much that it makes that much of a difference to the feeling.
Oh, and you're wrong about "there is simply no way that the team could have made the graphics look either more "realistic" or "cartoony" than what we were given..". Day of the Tentacle is the same resolution as MI1&2, and a LOT more stylized.
Yes, but it was also a couple of years more recent. The next MI after DOTT was so CMI so Im not sure I get your point.
The backgrounds probably like curse, the character less like a beanpole
Acually given the limited 320x200 resolution I personally think stylewise the in game characters tried to follow the Tex Avery style of cartoons, but the hand drawn screens tried to be somewhat photo realistic.
My personal guess is that a Tex Avery style probably would be the one which would come out nowadays!
I agreed with everything you said up until this point.
I won't make any friends with this, but I feel I need to be blunt here and try to explain what bothered me so much with CMI. Let's posit for a moment that a stylised, cartoon look was the natural evolution of Monkey Island, we then have to ask ourselves what kind of cartoon that would be.
I'm going to try and use recent examples here so that people can relate, I notice that most the people on the board are a lot younger than me and my cartoons aren't their cartoons, so bear with me, I'll do my best.
Look at Nickelodeon, now I'd say the natural evolution of Monkey Island would be something that's serious but with more cartoony elements, something like Avatar: The Last Airbender, something that can have its silly cartoon moments, and yet never loses its focucs or quality.
However...
CMI wasn't that kind of cartoon, it was more akin to the low quality pap that Nickelodeon usually likes to peddle, the quality of things like Fairly Odd Parents and Spongebob Squarepants. Both of which are hilarious but it's obvious they went about the cartoon with a very low budget and cheaply, and the end result does indeed look rather cheap.
So again I'd stress the difference between cartoons. If one were to look at ToMI, it has a more serious appearance with beautiful animation, that's more of a nod toward the kind of cartoon that I would have expected, that would have been the true evolution from Monkey Island 2, I feel, not CMI.
If CMI had gone the same way as ToMI, then I wouldn't have had any complaints whatsoever, but at the end of the day, CMI looks like a cheap Nickelodeon cartoon, and that's something I cringe at whenever I see the style of that game, the animation, and those characters characters. That's what I find objectionable about CMI. If ToMI had gone down that path, I would've found it so, so much less appealing.
Here's an example.
Instead of details, they use a lot of flat-colour washing (look at the brickless, tie-dyed wall, and the buildings in the background), much like they do in the remake to avoid details. There's also that 'stylised' look that cheap cartoons tend to have, things jutting out at odd angles, and things generally being comprised of weird shapes in general (look at the mouths of those cannons).
I love dadaism, but this is like a poor man's Dada art, and that's exactly what bothers me about it, it tries to hide how basic the art is within a stylised appearance.
There are cartoons that would put CMI to shame when it comes to how detailed they are, and I think that screenshot illustrates my point quite well.
It looks like you're referring to ME.
You couldn't be further from the truth. It's not a cartoon.
And it's never been.
The fact that it's cartoonish doesn't mean it should be distorted like, you see, DOTT's characters. Broken sword's a cartoon too, but it's kind of a movie.
As I said before, it would fit a movie better than a cartoon. And it's cartoonish.
And, btw, I suggest you to replay the drinking contest in MI2: when you lose, Guybrush becomes REALLY cartoonish, DOTT-like, let's say.
If they wanted to make a cartoon, they would have made him look that way during all the game. But they didn't. You know why?
'cause MI's not a cartoon, and it's never been.
the style of the box covers of MI and MI2, to me, is the real style of the game.
And those covers don't look like cartoons at all. So...
EDIT: and another one too!
I wasn't sure about CMI when it came out just because it was so different but was soon won over. In the same way I wasn't sure about Tales when I first saw the trailer, but having seen the gamespot gameplay video about 564 times I now love it.
The character models in Fate of Atlantis are much more realistic than in the first two MI games, especially MI2. Compare any character i FA with characters like Stan, Rum Rogers jr, the bartender, the Phatt Island governor, Mad Marty, Largo, the librarian or the Scummbar cook, and you'll see a definitive stylistic difference.
@Toothless Gibbon: You didn't like them? I LOVE'em!
Yes, I think they were going for a MORE realistic style, like, as I said, the cartoon style of Broken Sword, which is a toony graphic with all realistic and, most of all, WELL PROPORTIONED. No big noses, long necks, thin legs. That's my idea of MI.
@Bagge: Much more? They were A LITTLE BIT more realistic. But always well proportioned. And when they weren't, it was because they were FAT.
Stan IS realistic, it's just that MI is a dementially humorous game, Indy wasn't.
Anyway, for all of you people who care, my point is against the cartoon overload, not against the cartoon itself.
What I really hate about CMI is just Guybrush (speaking of visual style, let's leave alone other aspects), which didn't fit the original character.
(e.g. Wally in CMI was perfectly fitting his old visual ego)
And LeChuck is too large and not scary. The zombie in MI2 was REALLY anguishing. Elaine? Doesn't matter.
See what I mean? Cartoon style's OK until it preserves old feelings and emotions: when it makes things too funny and kills the serious moments, it's just crappy and ruins the atmosphere.
The rest looks pretty good: Blondebeard, Haggis, Cutthroat Bill, are all fantastic characters. The backgrounds are sweet. Hope I made myself clear this time.
Don't thank me, thank a Google Image search for Monkey Island 2 sprites.
Nah, the proportions - especially the head to body proportions - are way off, but that goes for both games. Largo, Mad Marty and the librarian are not fat, but still very cartoony and disporoportioned. And Stan - he has a mouth the size of his own belly. Neither Mick Jagger or Steven Tyler can match the size of his mouth.
Also, take a look at this thread and find the three scans of the original MI2 background art posted there. You'll see that while Fate of Atlantis strived for realistic looking backgrounds, MI2 had a much more cartoony style.
Granted he never said "I want it more cartoony." However, if the close-ups were in a realistic style, and he said he thought that style didn't match the rest of the game, what other options are there? If you're not going for realism, what other option is there? Only stylization of one sort or another. Granted, it doesn't have to be as overtly cartoony as CMI. But it's going to have to be, by definition, something with a bit of cartooniness.
I understand your concern is about the visual style destroying what would otherwise be serious moments. You claim the first two games had serious moments, and you don't like that the style of CMI and EMI made serious moments impossible or at least unlikely. Fair enough, you are entitled to your tastes.
I have never thought that, but it may explain why I have always enjoyed Monkey Island more than some other games, I also like film noir atmosphere combined with humour, which we have seen for example in Grim Fandango and Discworld Noir, more than lighthearted joking. Crazy characters in gloomy atmosphere seems to be combination of humour which amuses me.
Personally I don't oppose 3D graphics per se, but often there's abysmal controls in 3D adventure games. It was mistake to adopt idiotic keyboard control system instead of mouse control in Grim Fandango, I kept walking against the walls. But there's 3D games, like Sierra's Gabriel Knight 3, where controls and 3D work extremely well. In that game you use mouse to move the character and keyboard to move the camera. By rotating camera you can look inside trash cans etc.