Similarities in character designs...

The designs for LeChuck, Voodoo Lady, Guybrush and the french doctor were great, but it really seems that every other character was essentially the same two designs re-used except with alterations made to skin color and hair. Was anyone else bothered by this? I can see why this would be done for "extras", but to have somewhat important characters presented this way was little disappointing.

Very pleased with the game otherwise, by the way. Good job, Tell Tale folks.
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Comments

  • edited July 2009
    LionelM wrote: »
    The designs for LeChuck, Voodoo Lady, Guybrush and the french doctor were great, but it really seems that every other character was essentially the same two designs re-used except with alterations made to skin color and hair. Was anyone else bothered by this? I can see why this would be done for "extras", but to have somewhat important characters presented this way was little disappointing.

    Very pleased with the game otherwise, by the way. Good job, Tell Tale folks.

    Meh, I was more annoyed with them recycling the voice of the Mole from Sam & Max to play the part of the reporter in this game. His voice is just fingernails on the chalkboard to my ears.
  • edited July 2009
    broodwars wrote: »
    Meh, I was more annoyed with them recycling the voice of the Mole from Sam & Max to play the part of the reporter in this game. His voice is just fingernails on the chalkboard to my ears.
    I think that's somewhat intentional.
  • edited July 2009
    broodwars wrote: »
    Meh, I was more annoyed with them recycling the voice of the Mole from Sam & Max to play the part of the reporter in this game. His voice is just fingernails on the chalkboard to my ears.

    Speaking of voices, the glassblower sounded familiar. Can anyone place it?
  • edited July 2009
    I think that's somewhat intentional.

    I know, but it didn't make those dialogue trees any more bearable. ;)
  • edited July 2009
    LionelM wrote: »
    The designs for LeChuck, Voodoo Lady, Guybrush and the french doctor were great, but it really seems that every other character was essentially the same two designs re-used except with alterations made to skin color and hair. Was anyone else bothered by this? I can see why this would be done for "extras", but to have somewhat important characters presented this way was little disappointing.

    Very pleased with the game otherwise, by the way. Good job, Tell Tale folks.

    With all the griping going on on this board, I really didn't want to start a thread about this, and was very surprised that no one else had.

    I'm in the same boat. I loved loved loved the game. It was everything I could have wanted in a new Monkey Island game. But the minor character design was just, well, lazy.

    The glass blower and Hemlock McGee are basically the same character. If that's not bad enough, the newspaper editor, the captain of the Screaming Narwhal, D'Oro the treasure hunter, and the man at the door of Club 41 are four iterations of the same character. I realize that you guys have to cut corners somewhere, but what was going on was soooo transparent.
  • edited July 2009
    Yeah TTG re-use their models... its something I have a hard time getting over.... But I understand why they do it... They do not have the money major game developers get to play around with and they have fairly short deadlines.....
  • edited July 2009
    Irishmile wrote: »
    Yeah TTG re-use their models... its something I have a hard time getting over.... But I understand why they do it... They do not have the money major game developers get to play around with and they have fairly short deadlines.....

    Yes, it's a necessary evil, but two designs for six characters is kinda pushing the limit of what I'm willing to let them get by with.
  • edited July 2009
    it's kinda weird really.. it shouldn't be that hard to make characters look different. I mean, even in other games such as Mass Effect you can create your own faces and make them look different and that's for us to decide. For game devs it should be even easier.
  • edited July 2009
    Yeah....

    Re-using the rope bag, bringing in character designs from Texas Hold 'Em, and even dropping in a cow and a chicken from Bone are completely different from pallete-swapping half a dozen characters.
  • edited July 2009
    but would it be easy to sync lips, animate faces, and bodies?

    I ask because I honestly do not know.
  • edited July 2009
    I'll only mind the "palette-swapping" on the minor characters if these characters return (and I have a sinking feeling they will) for the other 4 episodes as well. Considering this series is allegedly not going to re-use locations for every episode, maybe the trade-off was that the minor characters had to be palette-swapped so they could focus on the number of new environments with each episode?
  • edited July 2009
    Pretender wrote: »
    it's kinda weird really.. it shouldn't be that hard to make characters look different. I mean, even in other games such as Mass Effect you can create your own faces and make them look different and that's for us to decide. For game devs it should be even easier.

    You realize of course that took a significant amount of programming in Mass Effect, correct?
  • edited July 2009
    I think that's somewhat intentional.

    It's totally intentional. I doubt the "recycling" saved then any time since the characters all had different outfits, bodies, etc, and probably had to be made from scratch. I think the native Flotsamites are all supposed to look the same.

    They probably could have addressed this in the script though so people don't get it wrong.
  • edited July 2009
    yeah, but isn't there like an employee dedicated to character design? That's crucial to adventure games.. I don't think it should take THAT long to design 5-6 different characters
  • edited July 2009
    broodwars wrote: »
    I'll only mind the "palette-swapping" on the minor characters if these characters return (and I have a sinking feeling they will) for the other 4 episodes as well. Considering this series is allegedly not going to re-use locations for every episode, maybe the trade-off was that the minor characters had to be palette-swapped so they could focus on the number of new environments with each episode?

    Are the people working on character design even the same people working on environment design? I would think those would be two completely separate jobs by two different teams, and therefore "focusing" on one over the other shouldn't come into play.

    Of course, I may be completely wrong. Like IrishSmile, I really just don't know enough about how it works.
  • edited July 2009
    Frogacuda wrote: »
    It's totally intentional. I doubt the "recycling" saved then any time since the characters all had different outfits, bodies, etc, and probably had to be made from scratch. I think the native Flotsamites are all supposed to look the same.

    There's no such thing as a native Flotsamite. The Marquis was the first, and everyone else crashed there afterwards.
  • edited July 2009
    Yes, but they would need a fairly hefty initial investment, so I wouldn't expect it. Whether this is down to what can be afforded, or our perceptions of what can be afforded I'm not sure. My guess is they're playing around with cutting other corners to deal with the recycled locations complaint of all their other games. I'll have to see what I think of it.

    That reporters voice though, I kind of accepted the deliberately annoying voice as a mole in Sam and Max, but it was a poor fit in Monkey Island. It just sounds wrong coming out of a human.
  • edited July 2009
    Isn't it Jared Emerson Johnson (Sam and Max's composer)? I think he's going for an old-timey 1930s newsman thing. I liked it ok. Wasn't crazy about the character himself, though. The glass blower was my favorite.
  • edited July 2009
    Frogacuda wrote: »
    Isn't it Jared Emerson Johnson (Sam and Max's composer)? I think he's going for an old-timey 1930s newsman thing. I liked it ok. Wasn't crazy about the character himself, though. The glass blower was my favorite.

    I think D'Oro's voice was my favorite. The dance that Guybrush and D'Oro do after finding the Ninja is hilarious.
  • edited July 2009
    This is one of my very few gripes with the game.

    When you think of all the cool secondary characters in the first games in the series, having pretty much identical (and not very interesting looking) characters here is a bit of a letdown in an otherwise excellent game.
  • edited July 2009
    but it really seems that every other character was essentially the same two designs re-used except with alterations made to skin color and hair. Was anyone else bothered by this? I can see why this would be done for "extras", but to have somewhat important characters presented this way was little disappointing.
    That's what i was thinking myself.
    Meh, I was more annoyed with them recycling the voice of the Mole from Sam & Max to play the part of the reporter in this game. His voice is just fingernails on the chalkboard to my ears.
    LOL, so TRUE i just pictured the mole character whenever he spoke... i think it was a bad acting choice from the actor though.


    NOW, the characters could have looked different with ease without loosing the animations/bones/etc. they could have used "BLEND SHAPES" for that.

    I think it was a bit of laziness on their part.
  • edited July 2009
    glenfx wrote: »
    the characters could have looked different with ease without loosing the animations/bones/etc. they could have used "BLEND SHAPES" for that

    That's a lot harder than you might imagine. The recycling did bother me though. For characters of that detail, modelling/texturing/rigging them shouldn't be too painful or time consuming that it wouldn't be doable in a relatively short time frame.
  • edited July 2009
    That's a lot harder than you might imagine.
    It's not really hard to do, and even less since they have the experience. So it comes down a bit as laziness.

    The models don’t bother me though, but the characters are forgettable.
  • edited July 2009
    The game is awesome so I second that the only gripe is the somewhat bland character designs... just picture other minor MI characters from the past and all of them were also unique and well designed.
  • edited July 2009
    I honestly didn't feel a blandness in the characters. The glassblower and the sick guy were a bit forgettable, but I liked the ship captain and the others. The scenes between the captain and Guybrush during the "siege" of the Screaming Narwahl really added a lot of personality to the two, even if there wasn't much dialogue.
  • edited July 2009
    LionelM wrote: »
    Speaking of voices, the glassblower sounded familiar. Can anyone place it?

    Same guy as the reporter (who is the same guy as Sam&Max's mole), if I remember the credits correcly.
  • edited July 2009
    I noticed the leonard steakcharmer clones, it's a shame given the stylised look of the main characters but hey, at least the game itself is pretty damn cool and is definitely Monkey Island :cool:
  • edited July 2009
    glenfx wrote: »
    It's not really hard to do, and even less since they have the experience. So it comes down a bit as laziness.

    While technically it's not that challenging to copy animation (though facial is harder), it often looks pretty bad when it's a direct copy. Because you're working with different proportions and models, you can get clipping issues and just bad-looking animation.
  • edited July 2009
    broodwars wrote: »
    Meh, I was more annoyed with them recycling the voice of the Mole from Sam & Max to play the part of the reporter in this game. His voice is just fingernails on the chalkboard to my ears.

    His voice is just so distinctive that I think they really need to pick their spots with him. It also distracted me that he voiced another character on the island as well.
  • edited July 2009
    Yeah, this is probably the largest problem I've got with the game. The stumpy, big-headed character model is distinctive enough that it grates when you see it too often, and I honestly couldn't tell if the glassblower was supposed to be the same pirate Guybrush punched out in the opening or not.
  • edited July 2009
    Just think about the pirates you have to fight with in MI1: it's the same thing.
    Practically the same sprites with minor changes.
  • edited July 2009
    If they were background characters like the swordfighting enemies it wouldn't be worth mentioning. This is like having one of the Flying Fettucini Brothers and that guy who chucks you off the Melee Island pier - not central figures, but distinct characters, with personalities - both share a sprite with Meathook.
  • edited July 2009
    Just think about the pirates you have to fight with in MI1: it's the same thing.
    Practically the same sprites with minor changes.

    Those guys were all nameless "scrubs" though, and were meant to be, but even as the series went on they started looking more distinct, particularly in Curse. I think it's just that we're saying this is a major step back (even further back than the original game) to have so many similar looking minor characters, and none of these guys were nameless either, they all had names and mini backstories. They could have given us a little more uniqueness to them.

    I'll admit though, I didn't notice the similarties between the ship captain, D'Oro, and Nipperkin, so I think they did well enough there, but it may also be that their voices were much more distinct, which helped throw me off.

    As for most annoying voice: Hemlock wins. I absolutely despised talking to him, not only did his voice annoy me but he was very difficult to understand.
  • edited July 2009
    The main issue is that TTG is growing up, but is still a not-so-high budget company.
    Things will change as the years pass.
  • edited July 2009
    Hmmm although I really love Monkey Island and Telltale, this annoyed me too
    I think that if they use the same models but with different eyes and nose, the difference would be much bigger
  • edited July 2009
    Jim Henson had a great solution for this. He had these muppets called the whatnots, which had generic oval heads with features that were attached with double sided tape. It's not exactly the same as this situation (3d meshes are less versatile in some ways than muppets), but it's a good idea, and works very well.
  • edited July 2009
    The ship captain and reporter recycle bothered me a little...
  • edited July 2009
    Yeah, I agree that they could've given them a little more variety, minor characters or not. I also feel that most of the characters don't stand out as much personality wise as the previous games, but then, we don't get to know them as well.
  • edited July 2009
    While technically it's not that challenging to copy animation (though facial is harder), it often looks pretty bad when it's a direct copy. Because you're working with different proportions and models, you can get clipping issues and just bad-looking animation.

    I said Blend Shapes, with Blend Shapes you can modify the mesh and retain the rig with its animations intact. There is no copying/pasting animation so you don’t get clipping effects. Of course, im not talking about having a dwarf changing into a stylistic tall figure, im talking about facial changes like ears/nose etc.
    In essence something lower end similar to what pixar did for the incredibles population characters, only one model that could morph into infinite unique characters, (but of course I will get someone jump with a reply “but that is time consuming and cant compare the two companies because the money and blah blah blah”). You can achieve something similar, with ease, by using a few modifications applied through blend shapes.

    That the engine doesn’t support Blend Shapes?... easy, adjust the character's shape then delete the blend shape nodes and export (deleting the blend shape nodes after they where applied will retain the modified shape)
  • edited July 2009
    I personly didn't mind it. But I guess I can understand that other do.
    I actually liked the the choise for doing this, if I'm going to be totally honest, I was afraid the island would be weirdly under populated, feel empty, Instead I got 7 interesting people to interact with.
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