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New Controll system is as Bad as in Grim Fandango

Ernie76Ernie76
edited July 2009 in Tales of Monkey Island
The Demo of TFMI has convinced me, that i was right a few weeks ago, wenn i posted here that Telltale will ruin the MI Franchise.
The Controling is a bad joke. Lucasarts killt theire Adventure section with such trys to invent the Tire a second time, and now Telltale does the same, just to Please Microsoft an the xbox360 users. Why Telltale is unable to Programm a individual controllsystem for each system will stay a mystery.
But i Know, i know! PC users are all a bunch of Software Pirates. I have ALL Lucasfilm Games/Lucasarts Adventures Bought the day they were Released, so i have a hugh galerie of original games of that company, and i even played ( Buyed ) Sam and Max Season one, and loved it. but know telltale kills it all.
Sam and max 2 is still not avaible in germany and it was yet announced that the voice actors will be others then in the first season ( a bad dicision ). And chaging the contoles for season 3 will be another cut.
Sorry Telltale, i will not spend my Money for being a slave of the Xbox.
And optional Mouse suport isent that hard to do, even in a 3d andventure ( i Programm one myself for the last 1 1/2 years, so dont tell me ist is not Programmable i and my team done the oureselfs )
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Comments

  • Sir TobbiiSir Tobbii
    edited July 2009
    Monkey Island isn't on Xbox... And you can still control with only the mouse.
  • jp-30jp-30
    edited July 2009
    Tales of Monkey Island is for PC and Wii. Not Xbox.

    So, yeah.
  • ArmakuniArmakuni
    edited July 2009
    Funny, the first thing I thought of when playing this game was - "I wish Grim Fandango would have had an option for mouse control like this!".

    The controls are good in Tales, I think.
  • Mike HaleyMike Haley
    edited July 2009
    I started replaying Grim Fandango recently. The control is not too bad on my Logitech RumblePad 2 (which Tales of Monkey Island also surprisingly supports, by the way). Although, Manny likes to occasionally run in circles. I believe that the controls in Tales of Monkey Island are much better, though. Admittedly, however, the drag-to-walk does take a little getting used to. Sometimes, I even find myself using the arrow keys on the keyboard to walk, but since I have begun playing Tales of Monkey Island, the thought of Grim Fandango has not entered my mind.

    Anyway, back to "the most excellent game ever." Oh, wait, that is Psychonauts.
  • SurplusGamerSurplusGamer
    edited July 2009
    "The Demo of TFMI has convinced me, that i was right a few weeks ago, wenn i posted here that Telltale will ruin the MI Franchise."

    Wow, you really don't deserve this game.
  • Sir TobbiiSir Tobbii
    edited July 2009
    Yeah, it's not even called TFMI, it's TOMI....
  • pnkthrepwoodpnkthrepwood
    edited July 2009
    The controls are better than I expected. There is nothing to complain about.
  • jamiehavokjamiehavok
    edited July 2009
    i kind of agree, if you can click and drag to move guybrush i dont see why you cant just click on a spot and have guybrush walk there - the new control scheme is kind of pointless, but im still enjoying it
  • Sir TobbiiSir Tobbii
    edited July 2009
    TTG has told us why that isn't possible with the way they visioned the game several times, it has to do with cameras.
  • FrogacudaFrogacuda
    edited July 2009
    The controls have their advantages and disadvantages, but it's nothing like the clunker that was Grim Fandango, where there were real ambiguities about the interaction, which was a much bigger problem than the navigation.

    Also, running is way easier with this system, and I like that.
  • Impossible3144Impossible3144
    edited July 2009
    It has nothing to do with consoles, it's so they can have a better looking game with better camera angles. Zoomed out views a la S&M wouldn't have fit as well here, and hurt the game quality. The mouse only controls are a bit poor at times and made me go over to WASD, but after getting used to them, they were pretty much always fine. It's clear from the full game why point and click wouldn't work. You can still click on things to get around a lot of the time, as in W&G.

    Even WASD is only poor in principle, in that it's supposed to be a point and click adventure, and that most of us liked playing S&M with one hand (it is more relaxing). But like, 90% of PC games control that way, and it's completely functional and a hell of a lot better than Grim Fandango. Also, since Grim Fandango was an amazing game, obviously controls alone can't defeat a great design.
  • PretenderPretender
    edited July 2009
    how many whiny people are we gonna find? It's not hard to control.. Seriously if it were an fps or a game like gears of war I could see a problem, but you can take your time with this one and the controls are fine... Ruin the franchise because of controls which are fine? You classify as one whiny little boy..
  • descart3sdescart3s
    edited July 2009
    I was initially struck by the fact that I was not experiencing the difficulties I faced with Grim Fandango. I didn't even know you could use the keyboard until now, and mouse-only was perfect. Click-rotate direction-automatic movement. If you perhaps suggest/program a better scheme (as you say your skills will allow) then I'm sure Telltale would take it into consideration. Why they would however, I don't know, because this one is already fine.
  • hansschmuckerhansschmucker
    edited July 2009
    Well, they don't exactly mess up the game (which is great), but I have to wonder what benefit they have over the old click-to-walk system, which ironically is still in place as you can see when you click on a faraway object (the pathfinding still works). It just needs to be enabled.
  • SpookyySpookyy
    edited July 2009
    Bring back true point and click for gawds sake =)

    I wonder why developers often want to mess with the control system in many games. Keep it simple (kids from age 3 and up has no problems learning to point and click) or give the option to the players to choose.

    I guess we can thank the consoles for getting dumped down controls/userinterfaces.

    /rude consoles
  • LorithLorith
    edited July 2009
    I liked it
  • FrogacudaFrogacuda
    edited July 2009
    hansschmucker wrote: »
    Well, they don't exactly mess up the game (which is great), but I have to wonder what benefit they have over the old click-to-walk system, which ironically is still in place as you can see when you click on a faraway object (the pathfinding still works). It just needs to be enabled.

    Easier to navigate larger/scrolling areas without accidentally interacting, and makes more sense for navigation-based puzzles (of which there are a few in this game). I can't say I prefer it, but after playing a full episode it has its upsides.
  • Impossible3144Impossible3144
    edited July 2009
    There's a topic on the W&G board with one or two people from Telltale explaining he rationale behind the keyboard control. I think we need the same thing here, because ToMI seems to be getting a lot of people who haven't seen that, and someone has to quell the endless "why can't there be point and click?!" whining. I felt the same way when I tried W&G recently, but in fact, it really wouldn't work if you were still clicking on the ground to move.

    If keyboard controls were some kind of disaster, or something that was difficult to handle, this would be justified. But they aren't. They work fine for most games, and they're great here (better than GF). The fact that they added mouse-only controls that, with a little practice (as any new method is going to necessitate) actually really works, is a bonus.
  • jamiehavokjamiehavok
    edited July 2009
    ok the reasoning kind of makes sense - during the close up scenes with guybrush clicking to make him walk off screen would be rather awkward.
  • homerjshomerjs
    edited July 2009
    hansschmucker wrote: »
    Well, they don't exactly mess up the game (which is great), but I have to wonder what benefit they have over the old click-to-walk system, which ironically is still in place as you can see when you click on a faraway object (the pathfinding still works). It just needs to be enabled.

    since there are not very many details in the grafic of that game, the camera has to move a lot, and its very close to guybrush sometimes. no place to click, or u'd had to click very oftenly. pointnclick woulnd not work in this game.
    i prefer pointnclick too though, of course. with that drag control i walk against everything you can walk against =) annoying
    but i like the music and the voices
  • hansschmuckerhansschmucker
    edited July 2009
    Frogacuda wrote: »
    Easier to navigate larger/scrolling areas without accidentally interacting, and makes more sense for navigation-based puzzles (of which there are a few in this game). I can't say I prefer it, but after playing a full episode it has its upsides.

    Funnily enough, that was the issue were I really got irritated with the new control scheme: In the jungle, with the old scheme you would have known that you could walk there without going to the next room by simply looking at the cursor. With the new scheme you had to guess how far you could walk. Not a dealbreaker (I love TMI), but I still think including both would have been a nice option.
  • NightsurferNightsurfer
    edited July 2009
    I have to admit that the mouse control scheme to move Guybrush around is better than I had expected; but what Telltale has done with the handling of the inventory (probably just to make the controls compatible to consoles) is really awful:

    To combine two items you need to...
    1. click middle mouse button to open inventory
    2. click on first object to combine
    3. click to drop the object on the "combination field"
    4. click on the second object to combine
    5. click to drop the object on the "combination field"
    6. click on "combine" button
    Typically what you do in adventure games is to click on the first object (the inventory is either visible all the time or appears when you move the mouse to the top/bottom of the screen) and drop it onto the second object; just 2 steps instead of 6(!) needed in ToMI!

    It's similar if you want to investigate an object from your inventory closer: Why do I need to click on the magnifier symbol first (and repeat this for every single object I want to look at!) instead of just right-clicking on the item to get a description like it is done for many other games???

    And when I start a conversation with another character, why doesn't the mouse cursor get automatically placed into the dialog box? :(

    One additional statement on the new "cinematic look" of the game: I would have preferred a calm sea in the "epilogue" on the ship, so objects I want to click on do not move all the time. - Now I either need to wait for the right moment to click or try to follow the up and down movements of the ship with the mouse to hit an object.

    Moreover this (unnecessarily) "realistic" environment (moving ships, rain, etc.) seem to consume even more resources than W&G: I could easily play W&G in a 1024x768 resolution, graphic level set to 6 on my system without any lag or display problems. For the ToMI demo I need to reduce this to 800x600 and a graphic level of 3 to avoid lags. (You can see from the support forum how many people are complaining about the hardware requirements. - Many adventure players are not "hardcore gamers" who own state-of-the-art PCs.)

    I understand that this is the way Telltale wants to go for their future developments and I respect that decision; but this is certainly not my way. - So regardless that "this is Monkey Island", I think it is time for me to say good-bye and look for some new but "old fashion style" adventure games from other companies.
  • JakeJake Telltale Alumni
    edited July 2009
    If you want to do anything but simple panoramas which scroll left to right, it becomes very difficult with a point and click control system.

    Imagine for instance that you have a close-up scene -- say you have a scene which draws the character only from the waist up. Let's say you want to investigate something in the back corner.

    corner.jpg

    How, with point and click, would you navigate the character so that he walked back towards the camera and exposed more of the room? With direct control that isn't an issue at all, you just walk "down" and it simply works.

    In a point and click game, a close-up like that would have to be a special cased "close-up" moment (usually reserved almost exclusively for cutscenes, dialogs, or "mini-game" special moments), but in a direct control game, having scenes with compositions like that (more cinematic) doesn't require a second thought.




    For what its worth, item combination was done the way it was to remind people that it was always an option. Too many times people get stuck because they didn't think that they could combine things together, and that's absolutely not the point of having item combination -- the point is to make people think about how they can use their inventory together.

    Also, you can examine something by just clicking it and then dropping it on the examine icon.
  • werpuwerpu
    edited July 2009
    Jake wrote: »
    How, with point and click, would you navigate the character so that he walked back towards the camera and exposed more of the room? With direct control that isn't an issue at all, you just walk "down" and it simply works.
    Actually some games resolved that by using exit hotspots, which means a directional arrow is displayed once you move over it, and if you click it you either move into the direction or there is a direct switch into the next scene!
  • hansschmuckerhansschmucker
    edited July 2009
    Makes sense. But I still think we should look for even better ways. Maybe we could do it the RTS-way, allowing limited scrolling at the edge of the screen?
  • JakeJake Telltale Alumni
    edited July 2009
    Right, for sure (that's what I was talking about when I asked for a solution which solved it using movement alone, without special casing it), but that assumes everything is static camera, or that that close-up has to be a cutaway. There's no way to easily smoothly transition. That's treating your game like it's a 2D game -- the cinematic equivalent of a silent film, when people were afraid to move the camera and hadn't come up with the concept of a dolly track or crane.
  • epoxytapeepoxytape
    edited July 2009
    i would like to say i was at first really irky about the controls
    but after playing ToMI i must say that whilst the radial mouse controls takes a while to get used to it, i can live with it

    i would like though if you guys at TTG would be adding more of the keyboard only use scenes in further chapters?
    i kinda like to see it more involved=/
  • FuryFury
    edited July 2009
    Mouse control does take time to get used to. You use arrows to start, then sort of ease into it. I only used arrows for the first half.

    The controls are WAY better than grim fandango.

    This topic is a joke.
  • PlaneforgerPlaneforger
    edited July 2009
    The controls are fine. It took a few seconds on the ship to work out how to move Guybrush around, and then I didn't have any problems beyond that.
    If anything, I wished that the older games borrowed elements from TOMI - especially the ability to vary Guybrush's walking speed after you've clicked on an object (ie. clicking on a door, then holding shift so Guybrush runs to the door).
  • KatsuroKatsuro
    edited July 2009
    To come to the juicy part first: I like the new controls.

    Now, after you catch your breath again, let me explain why.
    Of course, when starting the game I grabbed my mouse and started to be confused, not knowing how to actually move around. The little help box told me I should click and drag... or something like it. I did this and indeed, Guybrush moved. I didn't like the way I controled him. I couldn't precicly tell him to go to exactly that spot. Also the change of the camera angle made it a bit confusing for me and my mouse handling.

    "But wait?!" you might ask "Didn't you say you LIKE the new controls you monkey?!".
    I sure did. And I sure do.
    I found out, that the best control for me personal is, to control Guybrush moves with either the infamous WASD or with the arrow keys and take care of dialouge, items as well as interaction with the mouse.
    What happened after I realised how I can do this is, that I suddenly had an easy to handle Character, while looking at awesome cinematic cuts (something I missed in previous Telltale Adventures, but never really could point my finger on it).
    To make it short, I really do believe everybody can handle this type of control to the point of satisfaction if you give it one more (serious) try. Also you might wanna do a mixed-type-control like me.
  • FuryFury
    edited July 2009
    They're good controls.
  • adventureaddictadventureaddict
    edited July 2009
    I think the controls are done beautifully in TOMI.
    As Katsuro said, if you don't like the whole 'drag'n'click, you can use the arrow keys and the mouse at the same time. The choice is given to you.
    Just sit back and think why Telltale have done this. They have tried to provide an answer to everyone, and I think they succeeded. Well, besides those who are banishing ANYTHING that doesn't have the ol' classic p'n'c style. I won't be suprised when they start asking for the old SCUMM(talk look open close) menu back either.
  • BadwolfBadwolf
    edited July 2009
    I think the controls are as good as they could be, and I wouldn't really want to have to sacrifice the more cinematic look for classic-style point and click movement.

    One complaint I do have it that holding down shift to run while pressing the WASD keys is really starting to make my hand ache, but I'll see if I can find a gamepad lying about later if it's any easier.
  • KatsuroKatsuro
    edited July 2009
    adventureaddict wrote: »
    Well, besides those who are banishing ANYTHING that doesn't have the ol' classic p'n'c style. I won't be suprised when they start asking for the old SCUMM(talk look open close) menu back either.

    Oh :D
    I wouldn't mind that to be honest.
    But banishing ANYTHING which isn't like MI1 or MI2 (I know my brother banished CoMI for being comic-ish) is limiting oneself to one certain type of things.
    I love Adventures. I really do.
    But If I'd limit myself to "Only point n click is adventure!" then I'd never would have gotten into that awesome "different" adventuregenre with games like Beyond Good and Evil (its not really a plattformer, or an rpg, so people tend to say its an action-adventure).
    By limiting myself to "Meh. First person shooters are all stupid" I would have NEVER played an awesome game like Half Life 2.
    By limiting myself to "Meh... Third person shooter are all stupid as well" I would have never played the very awesome Ghostbusters.

    There are SO many good games out there (including ToMI) and by limiting myself to something, because the initial first impression wasn't all Blackjack and Hookers, would mean I give up on them out of my own free will.
    And as a gamer that would be a really stupid thing to do now wouldn't it?
  • MegalomanMegaloman
    edited July 2009
    After playing only a little bit last night I think the controls are fine. When you reach the town and the "real" game begins, that is. The intro/epilogue is kind of awful though, like another poster pointed out. Unless the point is making me seasick, of course, then you managed just fine. No big deal though! It's a bit strange that I had to go to the forums to find out that you can use the WASD. It should definitely be in the intro to prevent new players buying new keyboards due to vomiting... :p
  • adventureaddictadventureaddict
    edited July 2009
    Katsuro wrote: »
    Oh :D
    I wouldn't mind that to be honest.

    Haha, yeah after typing it, I went 'Hmm, I could really go for some of that.":p
  • KenifKenif
    edited July 2009
    MEH, it works
  • Olaus PetrusOlaus Petrus
    edited July 2009
    Sure controls took some time to get used to, but still I would say that controls are much better than in the previous Monkey game and also the story has been better (at least this far). So, I wouldn't say that TTG is ruining anything, but this is actually improvement.
  • FuryFury
    edited July 2009
    The ship was bad, but it gets easier and I think all these issues will be sorted by episode 2.
  • Sir PantalonesSir Pantalones
    edited July 2009
    It's cool, but if someone thinks it's worse than Grim Fandango's, maybe he should go back and play that game again.
This discussion has been closed.