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look at/talk to/use

hamsandwitchhamsandwitch
edited July 2009 in Tales of Monkey Island
So I guess not using this mechanic is to cut corners, i.e. less speech to read in? So instead of possibility of getting 3 different responses you only get 1.

Comments

  • Bruce AchterbergBruce Achterberg
    edited July 2009
    hamsandwitch wrote: »
    So I guess not using this mechanic is to cut corners, i.e. less speech to read in? So instead of possibility of getting 3 different responses you only get 1.

    Probably same reason as with the dialog menus that we have a topic here about i.e you have some funny choises in text but he still reads out the same thing for different choises.

    Such a shame.

    A Telltale team member said it was a design decision. I can't remember exactly why he said he did it (maybe someone can share the quote), but I thought he had a good point when I read it.

    That said, after having played the game, I agree with you, though--an MI game seems to lose a bit of its magic without those elements in the game. It just doesn't feel as interactive as say, CMI did.
  • hamsandwitchhamsandwitch
    edited July 2009
    I managed to edit the "dialog" stuff out before your replyed because I've currently only played demo so I might have misunderstood that stuff.

    So I wouldn't mind if you removed it from the quote also :p
  • turingmachine604turingmachine604
    edited July 2009
    hamsandwitch wrote: »
    So I guess not using this mechanic is to cut corners, i.e. less speech to read in? So instead of possibility of getting 3 different responses you only get 1.

    Not really, the extra verbs aren't really needed if they don't affect gameplay and having a simpler method of interacting with the game world tends to be better in the long run. Look at the history of MI and the SCUMM games. The original Maniac Mansion had 15 verbs to choose from, MI 2 had 9. Was the change from 15 to 9 verbs a waste and cutting corners? No, gameplay was better for it. There's still a "look at" action in the inventory, where it's actually important.
  • hamsandwitchhamsandwitch
    edited July 2009
    turingmachine604 wrote: »
    Not really, the extra verbs aren't really needed if they don't affect gameplay and having a simpler method of interacting with the game world tends to be better in the long run. Look at the history of MI and the SCUMM games. The original Maniac Mansion had 15 verbs to choose from, MI 2 had 9. Was the change from 15 to 9 verbs a waste and cutting corners? No, gameplay was better for it. There's still a "look at" action in the inventory, where it's actually important.
    You don't understand. In previous games you could "pick up" a woman to get some funny response, then you could have also "looked at" her to get a different response and third option "talk". That's only one example. The thing is In previous games besides "look at" you could also try to "use" or "talk to" some redicilous items for some funny replies. Now you only getting one default reponse for items feels like cut corners to me :/
  • capnpadfootcapnpadfoot
    edited July 2009
    I know, I definitely missed the different options, a lot of the pointless but amusing bits were gone.However, I kinda saw it as a way to keep the game smaller, the same as less dialogue options (even if they're there to choose from, Guybrush only says what he needs to say).
    I agree that the look at/talk to/use options are a big part of the old MI charm but I'm not heartbroken to keep playing without them. I'm so excited to have MI back that I'm willing to overlook this;)
  • Rather DashingRather Dashing
    edited July 2009
    hamsandwitch wrote: »
    You don't understand. In previous games you could "pick up" a woman to get some funny response, then you could have also "looked at" her to get a different response and third option "talk". That's only one example. The thing is In previous games besides "look at" you could also try to "use" or "talk to" some redicilous items for some funny replies. Now you only getting one default reponse for items feels like cut corners to me :/
    More often, I think, it lead to "hunt for the verb" gameplay, where you end up using every verb on everything simply because puzzles did exist that would require you to talk to a piece of wood or pick up a dog.
  • FrogacudaFrogacuda
    edited July 2009
    hamsandwitch wrote: »
    So I guess not using this mechanic is to cut corners, i.e. less speech to read in? So instead of possibility of getting 3 different responses you only get 1.

    This has been the trend in a lot of adventure games for a long time. It's more to make them easier to understand for the casual audience and remove redundant "I can't do that" messages.

    The way Dave Grossman explained it, he feels like, functionally, your inventory items are already different "verbs" for you to apply to items, so adding more doesn't really enhance the experience much.

    This was actually the trend even in LucasArts' hey-day. Maniac Mansion had 15 verbs, and then Monkey Island whittled it down to 9. Curse of Monkey Island got it down to 3, and then Grim Fandango basically nixed it altogether.

    Personally I think they should at least bring back the "look" ability, since it's a great way to write in hints, but it's still basically there for the most part, you just might have to do something else first.
  • RadogolRadogol
    edited July 2009
    hamsandwitch wrote: »
    You don't understand. In previous games you could "pick up" a woman to get some funny response, then you could have also "looked at" her to get a different response and third option "talk". That's only one example. The thing is In previous games besides "look at" you could also try to "use" or "talk to" some redicilous items for some funny replies. Now you only getting one default reponse for items feels like cut corners to me :/

    But you couldn't "turn on" or "turn off" a woman (both verbs were available in Maniac Mansion and Zak McKracken), so MI2 developer were cutting corners, right?

    Seriously, it's a design decision. Keep in mind that many TOMI buyers are TellTale fans more than Monkey Island fans. The games are made so everyone can enjoy them, not only monkey-hypnotizing old-timers ;)

    EDIT:

    What Frogacuda said.
  • FrogacudaFrogacuda
    edited July 2009
    hamsandwitch wrote: »
    You don't understand. In previous games you could "pick up" a woman to get some funny response, then you could have also "looked at" her to get a different response and third option "talk". That's only one example. The thing is In previous games besides "look at" you could also try to "use" or "talk to" some redicilous items for some funny replies. Now you only getting one default reponse for items feels like cut corners to me :/
    Well they still do that, though, but now instead of using the wrong verb, the amusing response will come from trying the wrong object on something. They just felt the verb system was redundant design-wise and might encourage trial and error gameplay that would scare away those that don't usually play adventures.
  • hamsandwitchhamsandwitch
    edited July 2009
    Frogacuda wrote: »
    This was actually the trend even in LucasArts' hey-day. Maniac Mansion had 15 verbs, and then Monkey Island whittled it down to 9. Curse of Monkey Island got it down to 3, and then Grim Fandango basically nixed it altogether.
    Nope, you are wrong, Grim Fandango didn't nix it at all. The 3 verb system was still very much present in the Esapce from Monkey Island which uses the same engine as Grim Fandango.

    http://i29.tinypic.com/11cfmkk.jpg
  • Bruce AchterbergBruce Achterberg
    edited July 2009
    Frogacuda wrote: »
    This has been the trend in a lot of adventure games for a long time. It's more to make them easier to understand for the casual audience and remove redundant "I can't do that" messages.

    The way Dave Grossman explained it, he feels like, functionally, your inventory items are already different "verbs" for you to apply to items, so adding more doesn't really enhance the experience much.

    This was actually the trend even in LucasArts' hey-day. Maniac Mansion had 15 verbs, and then Monkey Island whittled it down to 9. Curse of Monkey Island got it down to 3, and then Grim Fandango basically nixed it altogether.

    Personally I think they should at least bring back the "look" ability, since it's a great way to write in hints, but it's still basically there for the most part, you just might have to do something else first.

    I understand why they did it, but I can't help but feel like it detracts from the game experience.

    Maybe it's easy for a more casual, non-adventure game audience to understand, but to me, it just didn't feel intuitive. It didn't feel good not knowing what Guybrush would do if I clicked on something. I felt like a degree of control had been taken away, so the experience felt more scripted instead of my own creation--of my own choosing (I agree that a "look" function would be a nice addition, but I guess it's a little late for that; I assume they've done all the voice recording work). I guess it doesn't help that I've experienced all 4 previous incarnations of the game, so I notice the contrast more than those who haven't played the previous games.

    There's a lot that's great about TMI, but lots of the game triggered my "ugh, why is this designed like this?" I'm not saying they were bad design choices (I'm sure they had their reasons), but they didn't feel good to me, and I can't help but wonder how many other gamers also didn't feel so good about them (and when I refer to "design" I refer to the entire experience, not just the design elements such as the inventory, or the way you interact with the world, etc). I naturally, intuitively see and feel how things can be better, so when something isn't, when playing I have this feeling that the experience could be better, which detracts from the experience a bit and makes the game less immersive (maybe there aren't too many other people who felt the way I did).

    Overall, after my first play-through, I was kind of wondering what happened to my Monkey Island. To explain what I mean... obviously MI doesn't belong to me, nor is it designed solely for me, but it feels like the series has been diverging from what I experienced in MI1, 2, 3, and to a lesser degree, 4. It feels like the new MI games are targeted to a different audience than the one I felt a part of with the previous games in the series, and fair enough if they're doing that to be financially successful, but as a long-time fan of the MI series, I can't help but feel like it's harder to relate to TMI than the other games in the series. (Perhaps that my tastes as a gamer evolving, though, and not so much TMI. Probably best to keep that in mind when considering what I say in this post.)

    There was lots about TMI that I thought was well done, amusing, and even laugh-out-loud funny, but I it was harder to relate to in some areas. And that's probably a natural thing, since I guess maybe they are targeting another audience by necessity, but I still feel the way I do (although it's not all bad... it's just a game. I'll live. :))

    But I can accept and understand that the Monkey Island series is evolving, and even be pleased that a whole new generation of gamers get to experience something that I was quite fond of while I was growing up. In other words, there's lots to appreciate, so I choose focus on that.
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