Rodrik's and Asher's tense relationship
I notices throughout the game that there seems to be a lot of tension whenever Rodrik talks about Asher. For example, when he talks to Eleana about caring for the living, he mention Ryon, Mira and Talia, but didn't include Asher. Also when he talks to Gwyn about Asher, mostly it seems to be associated with the war that they almost started.
When the brothers finally reunite, they didn't reunite with hugs or warm words. If Asher picks [Greetings my lord], he sounds rather sarcastic as he call him lord and Rodrik didn't seem too surprise by his attitude.
My theory is that their tension are due to their relationship with their father. Rodrik was groomed and born to be the leader of House Forrester. Probably from a young age, Gregor starts training and teaching him about lordship. This probably left Asher feeling neglected and that's why he have such a wild and hotheaded life. Maybe Asher was trying to gain his father's attention or doing it because of anger.
Despite the fact it isn't discussed too often, I think Rodrik and Asher has the most interesting relationship of the siblings. They are two sides of the same coin. Both can display a fierce anger, (Such as Rodrik violently maiming Gryff and Asher ruthlessly killing his enemy without mercy). They both show a great leadership potential (Rodrik being decisive and confident in his decision and showing a strength of will. Asher rallying the pit fighters and showing caution and calmness during the infiltration or ordering Beskha not to kill). They can both show a great deal of love and loyalty toward their family.
Nevertheless, despite their tense relationship, they are still brothers and they still love each other. They are willing to sacrifice themselves for the other, because they know that the survivor can save their house.
And that's why they are both worthy to be the Lord of Ironrath.
Comments
I've always had a Headcanon that Rodrik and Asher are rivals that bickered a lot they are pure opposites after all I bet that's why Talia said "Asher just got angry, at everything" he probably argued with Rodrik and especially Gregor a lot. Especially since Asher didn't get along with Gregor because he was a rebellious youth and no interest in ruling, I bet Gregor tried to train him but Asher refused. And Rodrik was especially close with Gregor and wanted to be just like him "My father, he was everything, everything I ever wanted to be" they definitely loved eachother but I bet they were hesitant to admit it.
I'm a little disappointed no one's commenting on this thread, I was really excited about this discussion.
Well, maybe I accidentally pointed out so much that there simply wasn't anything to discuss?
Do you have something in mind?
No
I already shared my thoughts and I was just hoping for more opinions on the topic.
Aye me too. I am wondering why people aren't discussing this interesting topic more and give their opinion about it.
It is an interesting relationship, their one, because it's so left up for interpretation. Mira, Talia, Ethan, Ryon etc are all close - it's shown and established. But Rodrik and Asher? There's literally no line or codex entry in the whole game that gives any inclination to what it's like.
But ultimately, both would die for each other and they only ever have options that speak highly of the other. Rodrik can never speak ill of Asher, and Asher can never speak ill of Rodrik. And since the dialogue options, basically function as the character's thoughts, it can be deduced neither of them hold any true negative feelings for each other. Like Asher's line, "Rodrik is the lord of the House, and he's been bred for it... you'll know when you meet him. He may not be able to fight like he used to, but everyone learns to love Rodrik."
And Rodrik's line, "Nobody has more fight in them than, Asher. I just know he'll bring us the army we need."
But yes, I'd love to hear about how their relationship was when they were younger... or to see them interact properly (their 'reunion' scene was probably biggest disappointment in the whole game, at least for me) unfortunately, it's not going to happen. And thus we must theorise. But yes, ultimately, I feel as you do--perhaps there was some tension between them for the aforementioned reasons, but ultimately both loved the other, and would die for them. And that's all that matters.
Wow, it says viewed by 237 users one of those includes me! I can't believe that out of all those people, no one; well with the exception of @Agentz46 and myself; could find anything to say.
Well I'm glad that I'm not the only one seemingly cursed in this way haha. I find that if my post gets enough valid and well thought out comments to at least become 2 pages long, it's a good response.
I hope that my accursed 'grim reaper of threads' curse doesn't affect this one =(. It seems that every thread dies when I am the last one to make a comment on it.
Back to the topic at hand. Now that you have brought up the whole ambiguous relationship between Asher and Rodrik (I call it ambiguous because we are given hints here and there, but neither of them out right talk about each other to anyone). It's not like either of them have ever claimed to have loved the other or hated the other. This also reminds me of another thread I've commented in. It is called 'Mira has no personality'. The reason why I mention this is because it also highlights the fact that we don't know what Mira's opinion of her individual family members are or theirs of her. She's trying to save her family and yet, we as the player have never interacted with any of the other family members; even via letters. It's not like we can go to her desk and read letters that each member of the family have sent her or that she has sent them in response and vice versa. This mirrors the relationship between Asher and his family.
We only really get told about some of Asher's personality traits, motivations and instincts. Looking at some of these occasions , we can try to form our own opinions on how the various members of House Forester view Asher and then maybe try to determine how we think Rodrik might think or feel about it.
Ethan and Malcolm
In this conversation Malcolm reveals that Ethan's mother has asked him to go to Essos, in order to find Asher and bring him home. Ethan seems a little surprised and suspicious, that Elissa had not mentioned this to him. When he tells Malcolm this, Malcolm tells him that Elissa feared he would disagree.
So it begs the question, why does Elissa think Ethan would disagree? surely she would expect Ethan to be pleased at the prospect of Asher finally returning home. Especially as he has just lost his father, at this point he believes that Rodrik is dead. He is essentially the new man of the house! There is all this pressure on him to 'be the lord' of the house. You would think that he would welcome his only remaining older brother back. Even though Ethan is doing a very good job of being the lord, all things considered. He is still very much looking for reassurance that he is making the right decisions. It's also worth noting that at this point, Malcolm doesn't disagree with Elissa, he's very calm and seems to have accepted the idea. It is also revealed that at this moment in time, Malcolm seems to be of the opinion that a strong, warrior like person is needed to keep the house strong. We discover this when, Ethan asks him who he thinks he should choose as his sentinel. Malcolm seems to be in no doubt that Ser Royland is the best choice. He says that Duncan would "give sage advice" but what was really needed was a warrior, someone to stand at your side and have your back.
Ethanand his Mother
When Ethan and Elissa talk about bringing Asher back, she reminds him about a time when Ethan was being bullied by the miller's son. She is trying to persuade Ethan that they need someone like Asher. This story reveals that Asher and his father, had very different ideas on how the situation should be handled. Gregor's approach is to let Ethan find a way to deal with it himself, instead of intervening. Whereas Asher is seemingly more protective and hot headed, he chooses to act and act with violence! Ethan also states that he is not like Asher, but that he doesn't have to be. So now the pieces are coming together a bit more. By now we have already distinguished that Ethan, isn't really the violent sort. Even if you choose to take Erik's fingers and do it yourself, Ethan isn't blood thirsty; he doesn't do this because he is relishing dealing out this punishment. He does it because he feels that he has to make a show of strength. Not to satisfy some need to feel powerful or because he can, but because he is well aware that he has to try and prove himself as the Lord or the house. He knows that he has to appear strong, in order to deter anyone who might try to attack them while they are weakened.
If we picture Asher in this situation, it is easy to imagine that he would've been a bit more at ease with this, he is hardened to battle, he's not afraid of blood and guts. Of getting his hands dirty and killing when necessary. Ellisa says that Asher "has a thirst for fighting". So it is easy to see that basically Ethan and Asher appear to be the polar opposite of each other. Maybe Ethan fears that Asher's hot headed ways could land them in deeper trouble. Ethan also has the option to say that Asher is dangerous.
Now what I find interesting about Asher and Rodrik (yeah finally got to them haha). Is that it would be easy to assume that Rodrik and Asher are also polar opposites or at least at odds. However I think it is exactly the opposite. I think that Asher and Rodrik actually have a lot in common.
In essence they are very alike, so I imagine that when they were younger, they got on very well. It was not until Gregor started training Rodrik for the position of Lord that things seem to have started to change.
P.S. This post is waaaaay longer than I actually intended. I think it might actually be my longest one to date.
You makin me cry!
I'm so glad other people are going wtf over this. I was so disappointed with their reunion - I wanted a (even if somewhat awkward) bro hug, at least! You'd think after years of not seeing each other or even writing apparently that they'd have a little more to say, or at least an "it's good to see you." Unless there's a lot that we don't know.
I see them as getting along pretty well when they were young, and I'd have to agree the perceived rift almost certainly has something to do with Gregor. As they got older Rodrik wanted to be like him and Asher seemed to do everything he could to defy him - that's going to put them at odds. I'm sure Gregor was disappointed in Asher somewhat, given his disinterest in lordly things (which I don't think was out of jealousy or spite, that was just his personality), his wild teenage years, and especially after the whole Gwyn thing. I don't think it's too implausible that Rodrik may have been disappointed in him to some extent too. His life was basically learning how to be a lord and run a house one day and meanwhile his brother raises general hell, then throws house loyalty and societal expectation to the wind for the most problematic girl he could possibly fall in love with and gets himself exiled. I'd even go on to say they might both have some major guilt over that complicating their relationship. Asher clearly misses his family and who knows, being the older brother Rodrik might feel badly he couldn't look after Asher and keep him on the straight and narrow, or at least convince Gregor to let him stay.
It may be no more complicated than just a macho male thing where they care but can't really say or show it, but something tells me there's some definite baggage between them. This is an aside but it's also interesting that the traits we're told about them don't necessarily end up being true, so who knows how reliable any account of their childhoods would be. For example Elissa describes Asher as volatile and dangerous, but if he's dangerous simply because he can fight then Rodrik and even Talia are dangerous too. Also Asher seems far more plain self-confident than volatile and unthinking. And Rodrik is described as being very serious and never smiling, but my Rodrik at least definitely has jokes and is demonstrative with Elissa/Talia/Ryon/Elaena and smiles plenty.
I'm cautiously hopeful we may learn something at least since I'm sure we'll reflect on the fallen brother next episode... It's probably too much to hope for to want an anecdote from the past a la the miller's boy story that would further illuminate the exact dynamics of their relationship, but I'd really like to have them explained a little bit more because I'm left entirely unsatisfied. (Hint hint, if you're reading, Telltale... :P)
Wow. I wrote a novel too. xD
Feel free to write long post, Hayley. I always enjoy reading your interesting opinions and thoughts!
And I completely agree with your point being that it seems like Asher and Rodrik are polar opposites, when they are in fact not so different. That's why I said that they are two sides of the same coin.
I hope so too, I want to know the brothers' thoughts and opinions about the fallen.
And no worries about having wrote a novel. It is interesting.
We get two clues about Mira's relationships with her family in the first scene of her. She got a coin from Asher, to help her remember him, and there's that carving Ryon (?) did for her of the ironwood tree. It would have been nice if there had been more recent interactions between her and Asher, but at least he cared enough about their relationship to want to keep it up.
The two brothers not really being to interact is yet another disappointing aspect of episode five. It would have been awesome to see the two of them take on the Whitehills. Ooh! I am looking forward to Asher interacting with Gwynn though.
It was actually Ethan who made the carving. Though now that you mention this, in a recent play through I noticed that she only has gifts from Asher, Rodrik, Ethan and Margaery. Yet there was seemingly no keep sake given to her by Talia, her mother or Ryon. Maybe I'm just thinking too much into this or maybe it was just an oversight by Tell Tale.
I have a head canon that when the two met, Asher just presents everyone in a cold way, saying "I brought you an army brother..." And then they just kind of stand there for a moment before Rodrik runs up and grabs him in a hug. It would have been so heartwarming. Telltale missed an opportunity there.
I am currently playing another save file, just so I can choose to save Asher this time. I think it would be interesting to see how each of the brothers talk about the other and reflect on their relationship. Come on Tell Tale, you can't just have one brother sacrifice himself to save the other and then just sweep it under the carpet. We need some closure. Speaking of closure, do you think there will be another funeral? I really hope that the Foresters are at least able to give Asher/Rodrik a decent send off, without Whitehill interference.
Thanks, for the compliment. I also enjoy reading your posts too
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Asher's changed in Essos, thats why he is not his mother describes him
What if Asher began his romance with Gwyn just to defy his father ?
Re will there be another funeral. Yeah, probably at the end? Actually, yes, and it could play out in many different ways. If Asher was the survivor (and there is no miraculous survival for Rodrick) then I could see a tense discussion between Gwynn and Asher at the funeral, since it seems she likes to crash funerals.
There's something about the forester brothers that makes me think of Robb Stark and Jon Snow. One raised groom to be their fathers heir and given arguably most of the attention from the father(Robb and Rodrik). While the other son feels underapreciated and somewhat out of place(Jon Snow being a bastard and Asher being exiled).
Thing is, based on the positive dialogue options both Asher and Rodrik have for one another, it seems they are like Jon and Robb where even though they are different they very much love one another.
Great topic!!
You make an interesting point. In the books and show, Robb and Jon has something of a rivalry. Despite that, they still love each other as brothers.
Asher and Rodrik has a more darker and different version of it. They are full-blood brothers, there is a lot more tension going on. Nevertheless, just as Robb and Jon, they are both capable of being leaders and they are great warriors. And despite their tension, they still care for each other. Try and listen to Rodrik's voice when Asher got wounded by crossbow bolt. His voice was filled with so much concerned and brotherly protectiveness.
(My God, I'm so sorry for the super wordy comment... I didn't realize... x_x)
I'm usually a silent reader in these Telltale forums, but I want to chime in this time, first to say what a great, thoughtful topic this is!
I have to agree with your theory about their father and Rodrik being the "lord-in-training" that may have strained their relationship. It seems logical and quite likely. With that in mind, I'm starting to speculate that one reason Asher became so "angry," as Talia mentions, is simply that of Rodrik growing up (aka training to be a lord), and the changing environment. I can somewhat relate to that. I mean, Talia did say in Episode 1 that Rodrik, Asher, Ethan, and she used to play together in the woods for long hours, but that Rodrik eventually became more "serious," because Lord Forrester started training him and stuff, and Asher became more "angry." Asher may have wanted things to stay the same and had taken Rodrik's changing behavior personally, as Rodrik is his only older brother. And as his outlet for his emotions, he turned to anger and violence, and I guess he never got out of it. Moreover, Asher may have slightly resented his father for perhaps "taking his playful older brother away," or something, which could explain why he was so against becoming a lord. (Oh, psychology. haha) Just my speculation though! :P
I also want to throw in that though I actually enjoyed most of Episode 5 (unlike a lot of people here on this forum, sadly), I admit the little brotherly reunion between Rodrik and Asher was almost a complete disappointment for me. Since meeting Asher in Episode 2, I had the preconception that Asher was that type of guy who was buff 'n' tuff in public, but an awkward teddy bear around his family. I think it was from the very way he talked about his family (specifically his siblings) with Beskha. One of the dialog options Asher could say to respond to Beskha's saying "They treated you like shit" was, "They're still my family... my brothers and sisters... They had nothing to do with it." The slightly remorseful tone of his voice and the softening of his eyes told me from the get-go that he had no animosity toward at least his brothers and sisters. Total 'aw' moment for me right there, and from then on I was so looking forward to his reunion with his family... Maybe a seeing hug would've been nice...
But there weren't any hugs.
At least with Rodrik, which I was kindalowkey looking forward to, since Rodrik and Asher are my two favorite characters 
I resentfully brushed it off that this was because of the serious upcoming war that was about to happen (and the attack against Asher by the Whitehills that Rodrik may or may not have found out about), but the lack of sentiment made me, well, obviously sad but also an eensy bit wary of the relationship between the two, especially of how Rodrik had viewed Asher. I noticed that Rodrik didn't say much about how he felt about Asher--you know, something other than war or army-related. At least I felt that he trusted Asher through his adamant "I'm sure he'll bring an army for us" or something along those lines, and that he was just as protective of Asher as he was of the other Forresters, seen through that sacrifice he was willing to give for his lil' bro to bring the House to victory. That is something, I suppose. That last scene made me burst out in hot tears, to say the least, but... I STILL WANTED AN AWKWARD BRO HUG. So badly. An awkward bro hug would've been nice. So so nice.
The least I could hope for is that Rodrik/Asher talks about the other somehow in Ep. 6, giving us more insight on the relationship between them. Oh man how I hope for that; I need more closure.
No need to apologize, you made an interesting post and bring up a lot of good points.
That's my head canon. Asher has calmed down and mature in his exile. That's why he is so loyal to his family in my playthrough because he want to make amends. Although, he can still be really violent and ruthless, when he killed Tazal and Bloodsong without hesitation.
I love this topic, and the very spot-on comments everyone has made! I agree with the OP that the brothers are not so much opposites as one might think at first glance, but their relationship was probably strained by their different roles in the household. I can see Asher possibly subconsciously resenting at some point both Gregor for keeping Rodrik apart from the rest of the siblings with his particular training, and Rodrik for stealing away the majority of their father's attention. I don't think he only became a troublemaker to somehow raise attention to himself (I imagine him as quite a prankster as a kid already ^^), but that factor might have played a side part too. I also think that he might have felt that Rodrik just had all the luck in other things too while he didn't - for example, being in love with Elaena aka the person he was already supposed to marry, while Asher had fallen in love with the enemy's daughter. It was totally heartbreaking that they were so ready to give their life for the other despite their not idyllic history - I think you, OP, replied to one of my comments on another thread saying that the sacrifice was all the more heartrending right because their relationship doesn't seem to have been all smooth, and I cannot agree more. I just wish we had a little more time to see them interacting after waiting so long for a reunion
)
Now I am hoping with all my heart that the surviving brother can at least retrieve the fallen one from the Whitehills and give him a proper goodbye...because I don't think I could handle it if those bastards pulled a Robb on us and did things to the body of the fallen one (and seeing how they were mocking Ethan's death I wouldn't put it past them
(Btw: that "two sides of the same coin" analogy makes me think of another fandom I love where they use this catchphrase for the two protagonists a lot, and which ended in utter painpainpain ;_; you really want to destroy my feelings here!)
Whew, haha.