Well, Bigby also needed to be doing a better job of disabling Mary and the car that they'd all come out of. Killing them both quickly and efficiently and dealing with Mary and whoever else was in the car would have been ideal. The set up for the kill/spare seemed a little artificial. As it actually played out any added risk was probably minimal and perhaps even non-existent.
As I said earlier, the best option would have been to kill them both at the beginning of Chapter 3 the moment they threatened to shoot Snow White. And Bigby's not above straight up murdering sworn enemies.
The risk was very minimal, as he was completely having his way with the Tweedles. Like I said before, Dee doesn't jump back into the fray af… moreter Bigby tosses him several feet through the air straight into a car. Doing the same to Dum would be a logical step to take instead of ripping his throat out when the fight between the two of them was essentially over. I mean, if you choose to spare the guy, he simply slumps to the ground in fear and defeat. It would be one thing for Bigby to kill them if he was actually struggling with them, but they were basically a walk in the park for him. He didn't need to kill them in order to beat them. Wasn't it kind of obvious that Bigby massively had the upper hand in that fight (after going into his half wolf form)?
I agree that Snow should have done better backing Bigby up against the CM's murder accusations. It kind of seemed like she didn't really even want to talk about it.
So if you have the power to break rules that means you don't have to abide by them? That makes zero sense. I have the power to shop lift at the mall, but that doesn't mean I should just get away with doing it.
I have been doing both, clearly. I have addressed every single one of your points. Your idea of how the Fable government should be run is not realistic and would never work. It would be chaos. The ideas themselves are born of good intentions, but there is no way they could realistically work
no matter what you do she is never happy. she had a go at him for fighting back when the tweedles were pumping him full of lead. she never e… moreven believed in him she was always reminding him to behave rationally the only person who actually believed in him was Nerissa/Faith. how he ended up marrying snow is beyond me. Nerissa/Faith helped him 10 times more than snow. the crooked man's right about 1 thing ichabod/snow can't tell the difference.
I liked Snow until all of a sudden she told me she was my boss once Crane fled.
She was just an assistant, and all of her suggestions on where to go first was wrong.
They make no sense. Doing it by the book with Jack makes him fix Boy Blue's air condition. If you get caught stealing in Fabletown you have to do community service to which you get all your bills paid by Bigby after he gets his pay either from Snow or through his little secret.
All the money the Crooked Man had is confiscated by Snow in which 35% go to Bigby for investigating (which Bigby spends on steak, ham, eggs, bread, bacon and most importantly cigarettes), 40% go to her to cover the funeral of Lily and damages done by Bigby during the course of the investigation and as a donation to the government, the small percentage that remains is returned proportionally to those who took out loans.
There is merit to all of those points, but Snow seems to be above that. Can we really fault her for not wanting people to get unnecessarily killed? Obviously killing the Tweedles at first chance would be the easiest and most efficient way to deal with them; even Snow would agree with that. She simply wants things to be done better than that.
Well, Bigby also needed to be doing a better job of disabling Mary and the car that they'd all come out of. Killing them both quickly and ef… moreficiently and dealing with Mary and whoever else was in the car would have been ideal. The set up for the kill/spare seemed a little artificial. As it actually played out any added risk was probably minimal and perhaps even non-existent.
As I said earlier, the best option would have been to kill them both at the beginning of Chapter 3 the moment they threatened to shoot Snow White. And Bigby's not above straight up murdering sworn enemies.
Actually, That's how it realistically works. How someone can step in and fix things up. For a variety of intentions, Obama crosses the line as well.
I didn't respond to your latest comment because it was repetitive. So, It's better to cut myself off the conversation. These type of closed conversation is the reason why I don't stay much on the forums.
I have been doing both, clearly. I have addressed every single one of your points. Your idea of how the Fable government should be run is no… moret realistic and would never work. It would be chaos. The ideas themselves are born of good intentions, but there is no way they could realistically work
No. Obama does not just do whatever he feels like in order to appease people. Obama doesn't bend the rules to accomplish his own needs. You really don't understand how government works.
Actually, That's how it realistically works. How someone can step in and fix things up. For a variety of intentions, Obama crosses the line … moreas well.
I didn't respond to your latest comment because it was repetitive. So, It's better to cut myself off the conversation. These type of closed conversation is the reason why I don't stay much on the forums.
No. Obama does not just do whatever he feels like in order to appease people. Obama doesn't bend the rules to accomplish his own needs. You really don't understand how government works.
Give me proof on Obama doing that, and I'll believe you. Even if he he did do those things, that doesn't make it okay in the situation we're talking about. There isn't even a reason to compare, as it has nothing to do with the unrealistic ideas that you're suggesting.
I understand your intentions fine, but your logic is faulty, and that is why I am debating your points.
Spying on your allies, And your own people is clearly a by-the-book behavior. :P
Seriously though, We need to understand each others' intentions or just cut this conversation because I'm not a mood to fight. And I'm short-tempered.
This isn't debating, This is a pre-fighting argument. And i clearly don't have time for it. You think I don't make sense? View your reasons via a detailed, Un-repetitive conversation. Then i might rejoin that debate. I've seen enough of these types of "Debates" to know that i should avoid them.
Give me proof on Obama doing that, and I'll believe you. Even if he he did do those things, that doesn't make it okay in the situation we're… more talking about. There isn't even a reason to compare, as it has nothing to do with the unrealistic ideas that you're suggesting.
I understand your intentions fine, but your logic is faulty, and that is why I am debating your points.
Well, I don't just mean that it would have been the most efficient way to do things, but the least risky. Particularly when it's clear that there's a wider conspiracy (which should have been clear the very first time Bigby encountered the Tweedles).
Stupid Bigby declines to kill in multiple justifiable situations before the endgame, and at most kills...just one person, right?
Then Stupid Bigby goes directly to the Crooked Man's lair after essentially alerting all of his henchmen that he was going there. Stupid Bigby does this knowing that the Crooked Man's henchmen have silver bullets.
Really, Bigby would have killed or arrested the Tweedles at the first justifiable opportunity. Bigby would have arrested Jersey in his pawn shop. Bigby would have staked out the Pudding N' Pie and incapacitated Georgie, who clearly was a Crooked Man accomplice who alerted Crooked Man to come to the club and who was the likely suspect in Faith and Lily's murders. Bigby would have faced, at most, one of the Tweedles, Crooked Man, and Mary, probably would have had explosives or a gun (or would have transformed to wolf form and used some of the ol' Huff n' Puff to knock out the opposition as Tiny Tim was opening the door). Bigby never would have been dumb enough to walk into an ambush against that many fables that he knew had access to silver bullets. And by refusing to kill or arrest the people who obstructed his investigation, he put himself, Snow, and all of Fabletown at substantial risk.
There is merit to all of those points, but Snow seems to be above that. Can we really fault her for not wanting people to get unnecessarily … morekilled? Obviously killing the Tweedles at first chance would be the easiest and most efficient way to deal with them; even Snow would agree with that. She simply wants things to be done better than that.
And this is the exact same reason why you don't like Snow. You don't like people telling you that you're wrong or incorrect about something. That's all I'm doing... relax. The entire point of these forums is to have discussions like this. Don't take it so personally.
My last several responses have been repetitive because you haven't directly answered any of my points. So therefore I'm just going to keep repeating my stance. I honestly don't know if it's even possible to explain myself any better than I have, though.
This isn't debating, This is a pre-fighting argument. And i clearly don't have time for it. You think I don't make sense? View your reasons … morevia a detailed, Un-repetitive conversation. Then i might rejoin that debate. I've seen enough of these types of "Debates" to know that i should avoid them.
And this is the exact same reason why you don't like Snow. You don't like people telling you that you're wrong or incorrect about something.… more That's all I'm doing... relax. The entire point of these forums is to have discussions like this. Don't take it so personally.
My last several responses have been repetitive because you haven't directly answered any of my points. So therefore I'm just going to keep repeating my stance. I honestly don't know if it's even possible to explain myself any better than I have, though.
Also, Stop judging me and my opinions because you clearly don't understand me or any of them. So, please, Stop making it worse. I've left the forums for 4 days for that particular type of conversations. And I'm about to leave again.
And this is the exact same reason why you don't like Snow. You don't like people telling you that you're wrong or incorrect about something.… more That's all I'm doing... relax. The entire point of these forums is to have discussions like this. Don't take it so personally.
My last several responses have been repetitive because you haven't directly answered any of my points. So therefore I'm just going to keep repeating my stance. I honestly don't know if it's even possible to explain myself any better than I have, though.
So by me questioning your reasoning that counts as me insulting you? Alrighty then..
I haven't once directly insulted you. Lighten up a little. Sorry that not everyone is going to agree with everything you have to say. That is part of life.
Anyway, would you care to finally address my points?
Many of your comments are basically making fun of me and my thoughts. And You've edited one of them. If you're actually making a respectable conversation, I wouldn't be pissed. And if you convince me enough well enough, I might change my opinion. But basically, All you're saying that I'm an idiot who has no idea what I'm talking about.
So by me questioning your reasoning that counts as me insulting you? Alrighty then..
I haven't once directly insulted you. Lighten up a l… moreittle. Sorry that not everyone is going to agree with everything you have to say. That is part of life.
Anyway, would you care to finally address my points?
Umm.. no? I have never made fun of you, only challenged your stance on the subject. There is a big difference. I honestly have no idea why you would be under the impression that I'm making fun of you. That seriously has not been my intention what so ever.
I edit my comments a lot, as I tend to re-word things to make them read more clear. Occasionally I'll add more content/detail to them as well. It's all about helping people to understand my points better.
Many of your comments are basically making fun of me and my thoughts. And You've edited one of them. If you're actually making a respectable… more conversation, I wouldn't be pissed. And if you convince me enough well enough, I might change my opinion. But basically, All you're saying that I'm an idiot who has no idea what I'm talking about.
Also, Stop judging me and my opinions because you clearly don't understand me or any of them. So, please, Stop making it worse. I've left the forums for 4 days for that particular type of conversations. And I'm about to leave again.
And this is the exact same reason why you don't like Snow. You don't like people telling you that you're wrong or incorrect about something.
This is not judging? Prejudicing my opinion as nonsense is an insult as well. Well, According to me. And I can't see what have you said exactly, That differed from your last comment in order to address it.
That was in response to you getting upset with me for disagreeing with you. I'm just drawing relevant parallels.
Sorry, but me stating that something you're saying doesn't make sense doesn't equate to me trying to insult you. I'm simply telling you that what you're saying doesn't add up. That's part of discussion, that's part of life. There is no reason to get so defensive and upset about it.
And this is the exact same reason why you don't like Snow. You don't like people telling you that you're wrong or incorrect about something.… more
This is not judging? Prejudicing my opinion as nonsense is an insult as well. Well, According to me. And I can't see what have you said exactly, That differed from your last comment in order to address it.
Crossing lines is not the same thing as prosecutorial discretion.
Toad is a proven liar. He needs to actually use a glamour before he can complain about getting shipped off despite having one. Snow was probably right to ship him off.
Regardless of what happened to Greenleaf's tree, it belonged to the Fabletown government and she was a criminal. Burning it or not is not an issue of by the book vs. crossing lines, and assigning her labor instead of jail (or death) was a perfectly legitimate thing to do and was not against any rules.
Glamours are supposed to be expensive because the witches can't meet the demand if the prices are set lower. Greenleaf's employment isn't going to change that situation all that much.
Rules are made to be followed. They just need to be sensible rules.
No. I've said, Dozens of times, That crossing the line doesn't mean corruption. Rules are made to be broken, If you really want to change th… moreings around, Help the poor, The people who can't get glamour and fix the farm and so on. THAT'S called a change. But instead, She wanted to burn Greenleaf's tree, She sent Toad to the farm despite having the money, And so on.
Verdict: Crossing a few lines to get things done isn't bad. And It'd actually make the community respect you. That you're willing to do whatever necessary to ensure their comfort.
Well, Toad states that he told Snow that he has the money to get glamour. She could at least give him a 3 days warning to get glamour before sending him to the farm.
Greenleaf is the result of a broken system, She shouldn't be punished because she decided to say that the rules don't care about the fables.
Well, That's the government's job. To ensure everyone's comfort, Poor fables and witches.
If they're bad rules, They need to be broken. Simple, As That.
Crossing lines is not the same thing as prosecutorial discretion.
Toad is a proven liar. He needs to actually use a glamour before he can… more complain about getting shipped off despite having one. Snow was probably right to ship him off.
Regardless of what happened to Greenleaf's tree, it belonged to the Fabletown government and she was a criminal. Burning it or not is not an issue of by the book vs. crossing lines, and assigning her labor instead of jail (or death) was a perfectly legitimate thing to do and was not against any rules.
Glamours are supposed to be expensive because the witches can't meet the demand if the prices are set lower. Greenleaf's employment isn't going to change that situation all that much.
Rules are made to be followed. They just need to be sensible rules.
Decent points, but what does most of this have to do with Snow having issue with Bigby unnecessarily killing other Fables?
Anyway, straight up killing potential threats to avoid risk is all part of the efficiency factor. It would have made things easier, for sure. But is it actually the right way to go about things? I personally don't think it is, and neither does Snow. She wants to do things the "right way" in order to get Fabletown back on the government's side again.
There is definitely merit to what you're saying, but can you really blame Snow for wanting to do things differently?
Well, I don't just mean that it would have been the most efficient way to do things, but the least risky. Particularly when it's clear that … morethere's a wider conspiracy (which should have been clear the very first time Bigby encountered the Tweedles).
Stupid Bigby declines to kill in multiple justifiable situations before the endgame, and at most kills...just one person, right?
Then Stupid Bigby goes directly to the Crooked Man's lair after essentially alerting all of his henchmen that he was going there. Stupid Bigby does this knowing that the Crooked Man's henchmen have silver bullets.
Really, Bigby would have killed or arrested the Tweedles at the first justifiable opportunity. Bigby would have arrested Jersey in his pawn shop. Bigby would have staked out the Pudding N' Pie and incapacitated Georgie, who clearly was a Crooked Man accomplice who alerted Crooked Man to come to the club and who was the likely suspect in Faith and Lily'… [view original content]
Well, Toad states that he told Snow that he has the money to get glamour. She could at least give him a 3 days warning to get glamour before sending him to the farm.
Toad already received several warnings, and had already been given free chances.
Greenleaf is the result of a broken system, She shouldn't be punished because she decided to say that the rules don't care about the fables.
She shouldn't be punished for helping a crime lord enslave other Fables for the purpose of manufacturing glamours? She was going through hard times, but that doesn't excuse her for turning to a life of crime.
Well, Toad states that he told Snow that he has the money to get glamour. She could at least give him a 3 days warning to get glamour before… more sending him to the farm.
Greenleaf is the result of a broken system, She shouldn't be punished because she decided to say that the rules don't care about the fables.
Well, That's the government's job. To ensure everyone's comfort, Poor fables and witches.
If they're bad rules, They need to be broken. Simple, As That.
He just got the money, Give him a chance, Don't be so strict. I was a shitbird to him and Colin at the beginning, The Shittest person ever. But when I've seen for myself that Snow only cares about the rules, I tried to take care of everyone.
Greenleaf told me after Imprisoning the Crooked Man, "Let's just call it even now". She's a victim, Not a criminal. You think the government would have given her what she needs to live a good life without the tree? Or it could give Beauty and Beast the life they want?
Well, Toad states that he told Snow that he has the money to get glamour. She could at least give him a 3 days warning to get glamour before… more sending him to the farm.
Toad already received several warnings, and had already been given free chances.
Greenleaf is the result of a broken system, She shouldn't be punished because she decided to say that the rules don't care about the fables.
She shouldn't be punished for helping a crime lord enslave other Fables for the purpose of manufacturing glamours? She was going through hard times, but that doesn't excuse her for turning to a life of crime.
She doesn't really explain what the "right way" is. In the game she just acts naïve about what's possible and what's necessary, and doesn't trust Bigby's judgment about what's necessary to protect people. She even criticizes him for using his transformation powers which were necessary to heal from the gunshot wounds.
I'm not talking about killing "potential" threats. I'm talking about killing imminent threats. The Tweedles, at the beginning of episode 3, had shotguns and were threatening to kill Snow. They then shot and could have killed Holly and Gren. Bigby's failure to act decisively put them all at risk.
I don't blame Snow for wanting to do things the right way. I just blame her for not acknowledging reality.
A lot of the rest of the stupidity in the game is Bigby's fault.
Decent points, but what does most of this have to do with Snow having issue with Bigby unnecessarily killing other Fables?
Anyway, straig… moreht up killing potential threats to avoid risk is all part of the efficiency factor. It would have made things easier, for sure. But is it actually the right way to go about things? I personally don't think it is, and neither does Snow. She wants to do things the "right way" in order to get Fabletown back on the government's side again.
There is definitely merit to what you're saying, but can you really blame Snow for wanting to do things differently?
Toad had a warning before, and he had time between the meeting at the office before getting shipped off. He should have gotten the glamour. He didn't. He paid the price. He's a proven liar and you can't trust what he claims she told him.
What broken system are you talking about? Greenleaf isn't fighting the man. She's assisting fugitives from the law and known criminals. And she's withholding magic that belongs to the Fabletown government according to the Fabletown compact.
It's not the government's job to squeeze more product out of the witch's than the witch's can conceivably produce. The government doesn't exactly have unfettered access to the Adversary's warehouse to acquire magical artifacts. And the witch's are all in service to the government and have more important things to do most of the time. Like protect Fabletown.
Well, Toad states that he told Snow that he has the money to get glamour. She could at least give him a 3 days warning to get glamour before… more sending him to the farm.
Greenleaf is the result of a broken system, She shouldn't be punished because she decided to say that the rules don't care about the fables.
Well, That's the government's job. To ensure everyone's comfort, Poor fables and witches.
If they're bad rules, They need to be broken. Simple, As That.
Well how would you feel if you were a slave to 7 dwarves and passed around/potentially raped every day of the week? There's a reason for everything, even Snow's cynicism.
All I'm saying that He should have one more chance as clearly the circumstances have changed. He now has the money.
Bad rules are the things that Snow mentioned in Ep1. The Fable government can't take her of its own citizens, So that they go to prostitution or whatever means necessary to ensure their economic stability. This time, It's something different. The Crooked Man took advantage of this for his own reasons. Greenleaf also provided cheap galmours for poor fables that's supposed to be the government job to ensure everyone's comfort. I'm speaking about a general idea, Not a detailed one. I'm not purposing solutions, I'm only purposing new policies. All of the Crooked Man's agents are victims of a careless government. Therefore, You should make their life easier, To make your own citizens regain their trust in the government. Making life harder will only result in an uprising.
Toad had a warning before, and he had time between the meeting at the office before getting shipped off. He should have gotten the glamour. … moreHe didn't. He paid the price. He's a proven liar and you can't trust what he claims she told him.
What broken system are you talking about? Greenleaf isn't fighting the man. She's assisting fugitives from the law and known criminals. And she's withholding magic that belongs to the Fabletown government according to the Fabletown compact.
It's not the government's job to squeeze more product out of the witch's than the witch's can conceivably produce. The government doesn't exactly have unfettered access to the Adversary's warehouse to acquire magical artifacts. And the witch's are all in service to the government and have more important things to do most of the time. Like protect Fabletown.
What bad rules are you even talking about?
Yeah, I think it would have been more reasonable to take out the Tweedle brothers at the beginning of Episode Three. It never came to that though, so we can't really speculate. The only situation that we can really talk about is the alleyway scene. Criticizing Bigby for using his half-wolf form was kind of ridiculous of her. Definitely one of the only parts in the game where I didn't see eye to eye with her. However, her reasons against you killing Dum are completely valid. Maybe at the time you felt like it was too dangerous to do anything but to kill him, but there is another side of the story, which we have discussed. Even if you don't completely share her sentiments about the Dum incident, I'm not sure why that would cause you to think poorly of her. At first I didn't agree with her either, but I understood where she was coming from and didn't really have an issue with it.
She doesn't really explain what the "right way" is. In the game she just acts naïve about what's possible and what's necessary, and doesn't … moretrust Bigby's judgment about what's necessary to protect people. She even criticizes him for using his transformation powers which were necessary to heal from the gunshot wounds.
I'm not talking about killing "potential" threats. I'm talking about killing imminent threats. The Tweedles, at the beginning of episode 3, had shotguns and were threatening to kill Snow. They then shot and could have killed Holly and Gren. Bigby's failure to act decisively put them all at risk.
I don't blame Snow for wanting to do things the right way. I just blame her for not acknowledging reality.
A lot of the rest of the stupidity in the game is Bigby's fault.
He probably already spent the money on something else. Who knows with a proven liar like Toad?
You're not talking about bad rules. You're talking about a bad situation. What rules would you even be talking about?
The Fabletown government doesn't have the power to provide anything for poor fables. They don't even have the power to collect taxes, let alone institute a welfare system. My goodness most of the poor fables could probably go to the mundy government if they want a welfare check.
The only purpose of the Fabletown government is to protect its citizens from detection by the mundys and to find a way to enable them all to return to the Homelands, someday. Anyone who can't afford glamours can go to the farm.
Beast and Beauty are victims of a careless government? Give me a freaking break. They couldn't bring their fortune from the Homelands and demand to be able to maintain an extravagant lifestyle that they can't afford.
All of the Crooked Man's agents are victims of a careless government?
And, um, how is Georgie a victim? How is Mary a victim? How are the Tweedles victims? How is Jersey a victim?
How is the butcher a victim of a careless government? He's just an idiot who didn't report this crap to Bigby when the shakedown was happening. Bigby can't do his damn job if people won't tell him what their problems are.
Was Crane a victim, too?
Greenleaf wasn't providing cheap glamours for poor fables. She was providing crappy glamours to prostitutes who wanted to be able to play out fantasies for their johns and people who wanted to run scams and peddling fake magic to people like Crane. And my goodness she's not a victim. She's a witch who doesn't want to live within the rules of the compact that she signed and refuses to accept the employment that's available to her.
There's not a single Fabletown rule that's in the game or that you've identified that needs changing.
All I'm saying that He should have one more chance as clearly the circumstances have changed. He now has the money.
Bad rules are the thi… morengs that Snow mentioned in Ep1. The Fable government can't take her of its own citizens, So that they go to prostitution or whatever means necessary to ensure their economic stability. This time, It's something different. The Crooked Man took advantage of this for his own reasons. Greenleaf also provided cheap galmours for poor fables that's supposed to be the government job to ensure everyone's comfort. I'm speaking about a general idea, Not a detailed one. I'm not purposing solutions, I'm only purposing new policies. All of the Crooked Man's agents are victims of a careless government. Therefore, You should make their life easier, To make your own citizens regain their trust in the government. Making life harder will only result in an uprising.
He probably already spent the money on something else. Who knows with a proven liar like Toad?
You're not talking about bad rules. You're… more talking about a bad situation. What rules would you even be talking about?
The Fabletown government doesn't have the power to provide anything for poor fables. They don't even have the power to collect taxes, let alone institute a welfare system. My goodness most of the poor fables could probably go to the mundy government if they want a welfare check.
The only purpose of the Fabletown government is to protect its citizens from detection by the mundys and to find a way to enable them all to return to the Homelands, someday. Anyone who can't afford glamours can go to the farm.
Beast and Beauty are victims of a careless government? Give me a freaking break. They couldn't bring their fortune from the Homelands and demand to be able to maintain an extravagant lifestyle that they can't afford.
All… [view original content]
Imprisoning Crooky means you don't get paid and Crooky can give all his money to Bluebeard, and no one gets their money back. The only way it's even is if the Crooked Man is dead.
He just got the money, Give him a chance, Don't be so strict. I was a shitbird to him and Colin at the beginning, The Shittest person ever. … moreBut when I've seen for myself that Snow only cares about the rules, I tried to take care of everyone.
Greenleaf told me after Imprisoning the Crooked Man, "Let's just call it even now". She's a victim, Not a criminal. You think the government would have given her what she needs to live a good life without the tree? Or it could give Beauty and Beast the life they want?
He just got the money, Give him a chance, Don't be so strict.
He was warned several times. This isn't just a one time thing we're talking about here. The guy was constantly reckless, wandering around unglamoured even when warned not to do so. He broke the rules, and couldn't really be trusted to stay in glamour even with the money.
Snow only cares about the rules
She cares for the rules because she cares about Fabletown and it's citizens.
Greenleaf told me after Imprisoning the Crooked Man, "Let's just call it even now". She's a victim, Not a criminal.
What does that matter though? It really isn't up to her. In a way she was a victim, but she brought it upon herself by associating with a criminal. She also helped said criminal run his slave labor and other criminal activity. She was directly involved in the process, and she knew what she was doing.
He just got the money, Give him a chance, Don't be so strict. I was a shitbird to him and Colin at the beginning, The Shittest person ever. … moreBut when I've seen for myself that Snow only cares about the rules, I tried to take care of everyone.
Greenleaf told me after Imprisoning the Crooked Man, "Let's just call it even now". She's a victim, Not a criminal. You think the government would have given her what she needs to live a good life without the tree? Or it could give Beauty and Beast the life they want?
I completely agree. Toad after getting the money could have taken the elevator to the 13th floor, go to the witch for the poor fables and said "I need a f***ing glamour."
He just got the money, Give him a chance, Don't be so strict.
He was warned several times. This isn't just a one time thing we're ta… morelking about here. The guy was constantly reckless, wandering around unglamoured even when warned not to do so. He broke the rules, and couldn't really be trusted to stay in glamour even with the money.
Snow only cares about the rules
She cares for the rules because she cares about Fabletown and it's citizens.
Greenleaf told me after Imprisoning the Crooked Man, "Let's just call it even now". She's a victim, Not a criminal.
What does that matter though? It really isn't up to her. In a way she was a victim, but she brought it upon herself by associating with a criminal. She also helped said criminal run his slave labor and other criminal activity. She was directly involved in the process, and she knew what she was doing.
Well, questioning Bigby about the Dum incident in private is one thing, but she should have at that point accepted his judgment that he felt it was necessary, and she certainly should have presented a united front on that issue during the trial.
And I was just annoyed that she tried to make me promise to bring the Crooked Man back alive, without any acknowledgment that that may not be possible (which sort of reinforces my perception that she genuinely doesn't understand --in the game-- emergency situations).
And I told her not to tell Crane about the head found on the front steps. And she did, anyway, which turned out to be a very bad thing. For instance, even in the comics when Bigby reports a situation with Snow White's sister, he does it as a mere courtesy and admits no obligation to do so. Politicians simply don't need to be intimately involved in ongoing investigations.
And as I mentioned earlier I thought it was incredibly stupid of her to demand that I burn the tree.
And it was stupid of her to convene a jury before Bigby had even apprehended the suspect. If Snow's real concern was in protecting Fabletown, she would've waited for Bigby to get back before notifying anyone. And if she felt that Bigby went over the line in killing The Crooked Man, she would have made her own decision about what to do with Bigby and certainly would not have allowed his body to be shown to all those people. And she and King Cole would have decided if and how to discipline Bigby and only tell other people what they need to know. And anyone who was genuinely concerned about what happened with the Crooked Man should be told a partial truth - the Crooked Man had a gun with silver bullets and Bigby killed him. End of story as far as they're concerned. Preserving faith in government sometimes requires some things to remain hidden.
If Snow White or King Cole had a genuine problem with Bigby's killing of the Crooked Man (and based on the way they respond to some killings in the comics, they likely wouldn't be), they should have charged him with murder or simply fired him. But if they weren't going to do that, the community doesn't need to know all the details.
Yeah, I think it would have been more reasonable to take out the Tweedle brothers at the beginning of Episode Three. It never came to that t… morehough, so we can't really speculate. The only situation that we can really talk about is the alleyway scene. Criticizing Bigby for using his half-wolf form was kind of ridiculous of her. Definitely one of the only parts in the game where I didn't see eye to eye with her. However, her reasons against you killing Dum are completely valid. Maybe at the time you felt like it was too dangerous to do anything but to kill him, but there is another side of the story, which we have discussed. Even if you don't completely share her sentiments about the Dum incident, I'm not sure why that would cause you to think poorly of her. At first I didn't agree with her either, but I understood where she was coming from and didn't really have an issue with it.
Comments
Well, Bigby also needed to be doing a better job of disabling Mary and the car that they'd all come out of. Killing them both quickly and efficiently and dealing with Mary and whoever else was in the car would have been ideal. The set up for the kill/spare seemed a little artificial. As it actually played out any added risk was probably minimal and perhaps even non-existent.
As I said earlier, the best option would have been to kill them both at the beginning of Chapter 3 the moment they threatened to shoot Snow White. And Bigby's not above straight up murdering sworn enemies.
I'm just saying that he can! Not that he ever will. Now can you stop? My notifications are blowing up like crazy. You've made your point.
I'm done. I don't care who won this argument. Congrats to you or me hooray.
I have been doing both, clearly. I have addressed every single one of your points. Your idea of how the Fable government should be run is not realistic and would never work. It would be chaos. The ideas themselves are born of good intentions, but there is no way they could realistically work
That's not really true. Snow was only unhappy with my Bigby about killing Dum in the alley. Other than that, she was perfectly happy with me.
Its not really fair to compare Snow's help to Nerissa/Faith's help. Nerissa/Faith had inside information. She already knew everything about the case.
Where exactly was she wrong in trying to point you in the wrong direction?
They make no sense. Doing it by the book with Jack makes him fix Boy Blue's air condition. If you get caught stealing in Fabletown you have to do community service to which you get all your bills paid by Bigby after he gets his pay either from Snow or through his little secret.
All the money the Crooked Man had is confiscated by Snow in which 35% go to Bigby for investigating (which Bigby spends on steak, ham, eggs, bread, bacon and most importantly cigarettes), 40% go to her to cover the funeral of Lily and damages done by Bigby during the course of the investigation and as a donation to the government, the small percentage that remains is returned proportionally to those who took out loans.
That above is fair.
There is merit to all of those points, but Snow seems to be above that. Can we really fault her for not wanting people to get unnecessarily killed? Obviously killing the Tweedles at first chance would be the easiest and most efficient way to deal with them; even Snow would agree with that. She simply wants things to be done better than that.
Actually, That's how it realistically works. How someone can step in and fix things up. For a variety of intentions, Obama crosses the line as well.
I didn't respond to your latest comment because it was repetitive. So, It's better to cut myself off the conversation. These type of closed conversation is the reason why I don't stay much on the forums.
No. Obama does not just do whatever he feels like in order to appease people. Obama doesn't bend the rules to accomplish his own needs. You really don't understand how government works.
Spying on your allies, And your own people is clearly a by-the-book behavior. :P
Seriously though, We need to understand each others' intentions or just cut this conversation because I'm not a mood to fight. And I'm short-tempered.
Give me proof on Obama doing that, and I'll believe you. Even if he he did do those things, that doesn't make it okay in the situation we're talking about. There isn't even a reason to compare, as it has nothing to do with the unrealistic ideas that you're suggesting.
I understand your intentions fine, but your logic is faulty, and that is why I am debating your points.
This isn't debating, This is a pre-fighting argument. And i clearly don't have time for it. You think I don't make sense? View your reasons via a detailed, Un-repetitive conversation. Then i might rejoin that debate. I've seen enough of these types of "Debates" to know that i should avoid them.
Well, I don't just mean that it would have been the most efficient way to do things, but the least risky. Particularly when it's clear that there's a wider conspiracy (which should have been clear the very first time Bigby encountered the Tweedles).
Stupid Bigby declines to kill in multiple justifiable situations before the endgame, and at most kills...just one person, right?
Then Stupid Bigby goes directly to the Crooked Man's lair after essentially alerting all of his henchmen that he was going there. Stupid Bigby does this knowing that the Crooked Man's henchmen have silver bullets.
Really, Bigby would have killed or arrested the Tweedles at the first justifiable opportunity. Bigby would have arrested Jersey in his pawn shop. Bigby would have staked out the Pudding N' Pie and incapacitated Georgie, who clearly was a Crooked Man accomplice who alerted Crooked Man to come to the club and who was the likely suspect in Faith and Lily's murders. Bigby would have faced, at most, one of the Tweedles, Crooked Man, and Mary, probably would have had explosives or a gun (or would have transformed to wolf form and used some of the ol' Huff n' Puff to knock out the opposition as Tiny Tim was opening the door). Bigby never would have been dumb enough to walk into an ambush against that many fables that he knew had access to silver bullets. And by refusing to kill or arrest the people who obstructed his investigation, he put himself, Snow, and all of Fabletown at substantial risk.
And this is the exact same reason why you don't like Snow. You don't like people telling you that you're wrong or incorrect about something. That's all I'm doing... relax. The entire point of these forums is to have discussions like this. Don't take it so personally.
My last several responses have been repetitive because you haven't directly answered any of my points. So therefore I'm just going to keep repeating my stance. I honestly don't know if it's even possible to explain myself any better than I have, though.
And I am supposed to be happy to be insulted on the discussion, Right? That's why I lack the interest to answer.
Also, Stop judging me and my opinions because you clearly don't understand me or any of them. So, please, Stop making it worse. I've left the forums for 4 days for that particular type of conversations. And I'm about to leave again.
So by me questioning your reasoning that counts as me insulting you? Alrighty then..
I haven't once directly insulted you. Lighten up a little. Sorry that not everyone is going to agree with everything you have to say. That is part of life.
Anyway, would you care to finally address my points?
Many of your comments are basically making fun of me and my thoughts. And You've edited one of them. If you're actually making a respectable conversation, I wouldn't be pissed. And if you convince me enough well enough, I might change my opinion. But basically, All you're saying that I'm an idiot who has no idea what I'm talking about.
Umm.. no? I have never made fun of you, only challenged your stance on the subject. There is a big difference. I honestly have no idea why you would be under the impression that I'm making fun of you. That seriously has not been my intention what so ever.
I edit my comments a lot, as I tend to re-word things to make them read more clear. Occasionally I'll add more content/detail to them as well. It's all about helping people to understand my points better.
How am I judging you???
Just because I'm debating your points? Come on man. There is nothing wrong in disagreeing with one another.
This is not judging? Prejudicing my opinion as nonsense is an insult as well. Well, According to me. And I can't see what have you said exactly, That differed from your last comment in order to address it.
That was in response to you getting upset with me for disagreeing with you. I'm just drawing relevant parallels.
Sorry, but me stating that something you're saying doesn't make sense doesn't equate to me trying to insult you. I'm simply telling you that what you're saying doesn't add up. That's part of discussion, that's part of life. There is no reason to get so defensive and upset about it.
Crossing lines is not the same thing as prosecutorial discretion.
Toad is a proven liar. He needs to actually use a glamour before he can complain about getting shipped off despite having one. Snow was probably right to ship him off.
Regardless of what happened to Greenleaf's tree, it belonged to the Fabletown government and she was a criminal. Burning it or not is not an issue of by the book vs. crossing lines, and assigning her labor instead of jail (or death) was a perfectly legitimate thing to do and was not against any rules.
Glamours are supposed to be expensive because the witches can't meet the demand if the prices are set lower. Greenleaf's employment isn't going to change that situation all that much.
Rules are made to be followed. They just need to be sensible rules.
Well, Toad states that he told Snow that he has the money to get glamour. She could at least give him a 3 days warning to get glamour before sending him to the farm.
Greenleaf is the result of a broken system, She shouldn't be punished because she decided to say that the rules don't care about the fables.
Well, That's the government's job. To ensure everyone's comfort, Poor fables and witches.
If they're bad rules, They need to be broken. Simple, As That.
Decent points, but what does most of this have to do with Snow having issue with Bigby unnecessarily killing other Fables?
Anyway, straight up killing potential threats to avoid risk is all part of the efficiency factor. It would have made things easier, for sure. But is it actually the right way to go about things? I personally don't think it is, and neither does Snow. She wants to do things the "right way" in order to get Fabletown back on the government's side again.
There is definitely merit to what you're saying, but can you really blame Snow for wanting to do things differently?
Toad already received several warnings, and had already been given free chances.
She shouldn't be punished for helping a crime lord enslave other Fables for the purpose of manufacturing glamours? She was going through hard times, but that doesn't excuse her for turning to a life of crime.
He just got the money, Give him a chance, Don't be so strict. I was a shitbird to him and Colin at the beginning, The Shittest person ever. But when I've seen for myself that Snow only cares about the rules, I tried to take care of everyone.
Greenleaf told me after Imprisoning the Crooked Man, "Let's just call it even now". She's a victim, Not a criminal. You think the government would have given her what she needs to live a good life without the tree? Or it could give Beauty and Beast the life they want?
She doesn't really explain what the "right way" is. In the game she just acts naïve about what's possible and what's necessary, and doesn't trust Bigby's judgment about what's necessary to protect people. She even criticizes him for using his transformation powers which were necessary to heal from the gunshot wounds.
I'm not talking about killing "potential" threats. I'm talking about killing imminent threats. The Tweedles, at the beginning of episode 3, had shotguns and were threatening to kill Snow. They then shot and could have killed Holly and Gren. Bigby's failure to act decisively put them all at risk.
I don't blame Snow for wanting to do things the right way. I just blame her for not acknowledging reality.
A lot of the rest of the stupidity in the game is Bigby's fault.
Toad had a warning before, and he had time between the meeting at the office before getting shipped off. He should have gotten the glamour. He didn't. He paid the price. He's a proven liar and you can't trust what he claims she told him.
What broken system are you talking about? Greenleaf isn't fighting the man. She's assisting fugitives from the law and known criminals. And she's withholding magic that belongs to the Fabletown government according to the Fabletown compact.
It's not the government's job to squeeze more product out of the witch's than the witch's can conceivably produce. The government doesn't exactly have unfettered access to the Adversary's warehouse to acquire magical artifacts. And the witch's are all in service to the government and have more important things to do most of the time. Like protect Fabletown.
What bad rules are you even talking about?
Well how would you feel if you were a slave to 7 dwarves and passed around/potentially raped every day of the week? There's a reason for everything, even Snow's cynicism.
All I'm saying that He should have one more chance as clearly the circumstances have changed. He now has the money.
Bad rules are the things that Snow mentioned in Ep1. The Fable government can't take her of its own citizens, So that they go to prostitution or whatever means necessary to ensure their economic stability. This time, It's something different. The Crooked Man took advantage of this for his own reasons. Greenleaf also provided cheap galmours for poor fables that's supposed to be the government job to ensure everyone's comfort. I'm speaking about a general idea, Not a detailed one. I'm not purposing solutions, I'm only purposing new policies. All of the Crooked Man's agents are victims of a careless government. Therefore, You should make their life easier, To make your own citizens regain their trust in the government. Making life harder will only result in an uprising.
Yeah, I think it would have been more reasonable to take out the Tweedle brothers at the beginning of Episode Three. It never came to that though, so we can't really speculate. The only situation that we can really talk about is the alleyway scene. Criticizing Bigby for using his half-wolf form was kind of ridiculous of her. Definitely one of the only parts in the game where I didn't see eye to eye with her. However, her reasons against you killing Dum are completely valid. Maybe at the time you felt like it was too dangerous to do anything but to kill him, but there is another side of the story, which we have discussed. Even if you don't completely share her sentiments about the Dum incident, I'm not sure why that would cause you to think poorly of her. At first I didn't agree with her either, but I understood where she was coming from and didn't really have an issue with it.
He probably already spent the money on something else. Who knows with a proven liar like Toad?
You're not talking about bad rules. You're talking about a bad situation. What rules would you even be talking about?
The Fabletown government doesn't have the power to provide anything for poor fables. They don't even have the power to collect taxes, let alone institute a welfare system. My goodness most of the poor fables could probably go to the mundy government if they want a welfare check.
The only purpose of the Fabletown government is to protect its citizens from detection by the mundys and to find a way to enable them all to return to the Homelands, someday. Anyone who can't afford glamours can go to the farm.
Beast and Beauty are victims of a careless government? Give me a freaking break. They couldn't bring their fortune from the Homelands and demand to be able to maintain an extravagant lifestyle that they can't afford.
All of the Crooked Man's agents are victims of a careless government?
And, um, how is Georgie a victim? How is Mary a victim? How are the Tweedles victims? How is Jersey a victim?
How is the butcher a victim of a careless government? He's just an idiot who didn't report this crap to Bigby when the shakedown was happening. Bigby can't do his damn job if people won't tell him what their problems are.
Was Crane a victim, too?
Greenleaf wasn't providing cheap glamours for poor fables. She was providing crappy glamours to prostitutes who wanted to be able to play out fantasies for their johns and people who wanted to run scams and peddling fake magic to people like Crane. And my goodness she's not a victim. She's a witch who doesn't want to live within the rules of the compact that she signed and refuses to accept the employment that's available to her.
There's not a single Fabletown rule that's in the game or that you've identified that needs changing.
Well, Whatever. Your comment has been flagged as offensive.
Imprisoning Crooky means you don't get paid and Crooky can give all his money to Bluebeard, and no one gets their money back. The only way it's even is if the Crooked Man is dead.
He was warned several times. This isn't just a one time thing we're talking about here. The guy was constantly reckless, wandering around unglamoured even when warned not to do so. He broke the rules, and couldn't really be trusted to stay in glamour even with the money.
She cares for the rules because she cares about Fabletown and it's citizens.
What does that matter though? It really isn't up to her. In a way she was a victim, but she brought it upon herself by associating with a criminal. She also helped said criminal run his slave labor and other criminal activity. She was directly involved in the process, and she knew what she was doing.
I completely agree. Toad after getting the money could have taken the elevator to the 13th floor, go to the witch for the poor fables and said "I need a f***ing glamour."
I feel like you have these issues with everyone.. you really need to relax a little. No one else is having these issues.
Which was assessed and proven false.
Well, questioning Bigby about the Dum incident in private is one thing, but she should have at that point accepted his judgment that he felt it was necessary, and she certainly should have presented a united front on that issue during the trial.
And I was just annoyed that she tried to make me promise to bring the Crooked Man back alive, without any acknowledgment that that may not be possible (which sort of reinforces my perception that she genuinely doesn't understand --in the game-- emergency situations).
And I told her not to tell Crane about the head found on the front steps. And she did, anyway, which turned out to be a very bad thing. For instance, even in the comics when Bigby reports a situation with Snow White's sister, he does it as a mere courtesy and admits no obligation to do so. Politicians simply don't need to be intimately involved in ongoing investigations.
And as I mentioned earlier I thought it was incredibly stupid of her to demand that I burn the tree.
And it was stupid of her to convene a jury before Bigby had even apprehended the suspect. If Snow's real concern was in protecting Fabletown, she would've waited for Bigby to get back before notifying anyone. And if she felt that Bigby went over the line in killing The Crooked Man, she would have made her own decision about what to do with Bigby and certainly would not have allowed his body to be shown to all those people. And she and King Cole would have decided if and how to discipline Bigby and only tell other people what they need to know. And anyone who was genuinely concerned about what happened with the Crooked Man should be told a partial truth - the Crooked Man had a gun with silver bullets and Bigby killed him. End of story as far as they're concerned. Preserving faith in government sometimes requires some things to remain hidden.
If Snow White or King Cole had a genuine problem with Bigby's killing of the Crooked Man (and based on the way they respond to some killings in the comics, they likely wouldn't be), they should have charged him with murder or simply fired him. But if they weren't going to do that, the community doesn't need to know all the details.