I think you made some valid points. Season two has it's fair share of problems. For example, the deaths are not as shocking. Then again, I think that the main reason for that is that there has been too much death already.
What is upsetting folks around here is not the way deaths are handled or which characters die - the death of Sarah was not as inconsequential as expressed by many users.
But what is upsetting the community is the absolut lack of hope or something to cheer you up.
In season one, you always had hope. Even when Lee was bit at the end of episode four, what made you strong was the hope to save Clementine.
Since the end of the second episode, hope is completely gone. Everything is dark and depressing. That's why I loved the raccoon scene so much. But still, all the death, the pain, it feels overused - because you can't base a game just on that depressing stuff. Everything turns to shit, no matter what you do.
However, season one had it's fair share of problems as well. The ending made no sense at all, Crawford was a lot of wasted potential, the character Molly made no sense at all. But you had more motivation to keep going, because you fought for a better life.
Now, at the end of episode four, everything is bad. There has never been a situation more hopeless and dark. I do hope that the fifth episode will show Clem overcome this and end on a hopeful tone for the third season.
Then again, if Telltale is planning for three seasons, it would be a classical structure for the second season to end at a hopeless down low.
I think that a lot of the community members express their opinion in a bad way because there really is no reason to keep going like this. Clem will eventually break and die.
Still, I love the story, the places it takes us. It's very entertaining. The story itself is better than season one, I think, and I enjoyed the second season far more. Could be because I absolutely dig the character Clem and can't get enough of her. But the story is at an all time down depressing low.
The thing I've noticed the most about Season 2 is that we all thought it was pretty good until around now, until the build up that has been … morehappening just finally collapsed on itself without much payout. We all thought the build up was great... and suddenly now here we are at the second to last episode, an episode that for some reason takes more focus on Jane, an exact Molly copy right down to the sister--- (plus I recall fans wondering if this WAS Molly when we first saw her, so it would've been easier and more interesting in a way to just make it be Molly)--- anyways. This episode, taking more focus on Jane than characters we were encouraged to like at the beginning like Nick and the cabin group.... it feels very dry. I didn't flinch when anyone died, even Rebecca. I didn't care too much when anyone died. The only character I was sad that died this entire season was Pete, because at least everyone was upset.
I've been very optimistic abo… [view original content]
Sarah's death , who was going to die from any choice you make, pissed me off... It's as if she was just a waste of character..
WTF is up wi… moreth NICK'S DEATH!!! No detail information on how it happened.... What the fuck is the point in saving nick from episode 1 then?
Russian people? Did they take over USA? That Nerdy Russian kid... it errks me to see this guy in the game....
This game is way too negative...
Wow! I never really liked Sarah so I have a lot of trouble relating to your post. Also, I actually liked episodes 3 and 4... To me, Sarah was a burden and a lost cause. I tried to comfort her, to help her, to save her, but she died, as most people do in the comics and the game. That's life...
I think this game is genius! Not perfect, but damn fun!
Also... About that:
You can't disagree with anything Jane says, and you can't try to prove her wrong.
Just no.
There are many moments in the game where you can try to convince her and even Luke that Clem kept her humanity. Seems like you simply made the wrong choices with dialogues...
And that...
And why would Jane of all people proposition Luke in a time like that? I wasn’t even bothered so much as I was confused. It was a complete WTF towards both of their characters.
Do you read to comics? Because a lot of the romance and sex is random in it. A LOT. So... Stay canonical or GTFO. (/mean joke)
I want to add: It is okay to complain and stuff. But it does not have to be "Shame on you, Telltale".
Guys, I'm sure they do their best. The expectations for season two were INCREDIBLY high. Everyone expected a masterpiece, and you have to be able to handle that pressure.
Personally, I enjoy season two far more than season one, but that's just my personal opinion. I get it if people are let down because of one reason or another.
But telltale is really putting some hard work into this. You cannot always please everyone.
And it does not have to be a "Shame on you, Telltale". That's... disrespectful.
I like the negativity in the game. What I don't like is that there's no real illusion of choice. I'm not even asking for actual choice - just the illusion of choice making a difference. If you were able to get Sarah to live only for her to die next episode in the shootout, at least then the choices in episode 4 would have felt, at the time, to have made a difference.
That's the difference between Season 1 and Season 2. In Season 1, you had the actual hope that they might survive, or at least some of them might. In season 2, everything seems so railroaded that you're pretty much going to assume 'well everyone's going to die' - so there's no real reason to become emotionally invested in the characters like people were in Season 1.
The thing I've noticed the most about Season 2 is that we all thought it was pretty good until around now, until the build up that has been … morehappening just finally collapsed on itself without much payout. We all thought the build up was great... and suddenly now here we are at the second to last episode, an episode that for some reason takes more focus on Jane, an exact Molly copy right down to the sister--- (plus I recall fans wondering if this WAS Molly when we first saw her, so it would've been easier and more interesting in a way to just make it be Molly)--- anyways. This episode, taking more focus on Jane than characters we were encouraged to like at the beginning like Nick and the cabin group.... it feels very dry. I didn't flinch when anyone died, even Rebecca. I didn't care too much when anyone died. The only character I was sad that died this entire season was Pete, because at least everyone was upset.
I've been very optimistic abo… [view original content]
I do get that, and I do get why that bothers a lot of people. Then again, I became emotionally invested with many characters, and I still want to save Clem.
That's the difference between Season 1 and Season 2. In Season 1, you had the actual hope that they might survive, or at least some of them… more might. In season 2, everything seems so railroaded that you're pretty much going to assume 'well everyone's going to die' - so there's no real reason to become emotionally invested in the characters like people were in Season 1.
I do think Telltale is working hard, but this one hour thing, the fact that they took out the involving hub areas for most of the season, and that all kind of feels like a result of working on three other franchises, and the problems people are having with the season could of easily been avoided if Telltale simply took their time with the story and characters.
I want to add: It is okay to complain and stuff. But it does not have to be "Shame on you, Telltale".
Guys, I'm sure they do their best. Th… moree expectations for season two were INCREDIBLY high. Everyone expected a masterpiece, and you have to be able to handle that pressure.
Personally, I enjoy season two far more than season one, but that's just my personal opinion. I get it if people are let down because of one reason or another.
But telltale is really putting some hard work into this. You cannot always please everyone.
And it does not have to be a "Shame on you, Telltale". That's... disrespectful.
I understand that it makes Sarah loyal. I don't see how it makes her brave.
So it's not brave for a 15-year old girl who doesn't know how to defend herself -and was unable to even if she did know how (since her hands are tied at the time)- to speak up against the very same adult who just beat and nearly killed her father the day before?
She does it as a way to get Clem to leave her alone. This makes it seem like it's not such a big deal to Sarah.
This is more of a game mechanics issue than insight into her character. If Clem doesn't get the medicine, it's game over. That doesn't change the fact that Telltale specifically builds this scene in an attempt to emphasize that Sarah is going to be an important and complex character. Everyone has to go through this conversation, so everyone is going to see it and have insight on Sarah. Several important themes are touched on within the conversation (trust, friendship, innocence). And we are revealed several things about her character in the conversation (her relationship with her dad, her naiveté, and eagerness to make friends) There is nothing to indicate that Sarah is supposed to be one-dimensional, hopeless, or a "waste of space".
The conversation we've been having is about how Sarah's complexity telegraphed to fans of Sarah an outcome to her story that was different than the one that ended up occurring.
Just because what happened to her was a logical result of events in the episode does not excuse the writing itself. It does not excuse the fact that the episode was written in a way that erased all prior duality or complexity to her character.
In episodes before this, the situation was always two-sided- do you support her or dismiss her? Do you try to shelter her from the world or do you try to open her eyes? And there was always an option for Clem to be kind, supportive, and respectful toward her.
Her treatment in this episode on the other hand was not respectful or understanding from any perspective. The writing is very obviously focused on the viewpoint that Sarah is a burden, clueless, and hopelessly dependent. The most sympathy her character receives is from Jane and Luke and even then she is only used as a crutch to reveal weak insight on their characters. The only other character shown to genuinely care is Rebecca in an extra line or two, but even that feels half-assed and insincere on the writers part, since they specifically made Rebecca be the "default person who reacts emotionally" in this episode, such as when she is more upset at Nick's death than Luke.
Sarah was the personification of hope for fans who are continually denied fair and honest representation in media, and Telltale recieved high praise that she was created to be a complex and sympathetic character. Only for them to completely turn around and write her off without sympathy or player choice in the matter. Killing her served no purpose to the story, it did not illustrate any themes or connections to the plot. The only possible theme that people interpret it to represent -futility or hopelessness in the world- comes as a result of the shoddy writing, not as a theme that was built up to.
I guess we can agree to disagree on the first point. It just seemed like a normal reaction from a person to speak up when something happens … morethat they don't like. I understand that it makes Sarah loyal. I don't see how it makes her brave.
But it apparently wasn't a hard thing for her to do because she does it regardless of whether or not Clem befriends her. She does it as a way to get Clem to leave her alone. This makes it seem like it's not such a big deal to Sarah.
The conversation we've been having is about how Sarah's complexity telegraphed to fans of Sarah an outcome to her story that was different than the one that ended up occurring. In the case of her tendency to escape from reality and hiding in a fantasy world, that is precisely what did happen to her. So I don't see how that bolsters your argument.
It isn't just in episode 4 that this happens, though. Sarah loses her optimism quite easily in previous encounters with her. An… [view original content]
I read all of this and I couldn't agree with you more. It was a very disappointing episode and that's all down to extremely bad writing. Even mike and bonnie's comment on Kenny's reaction to mike trying to talk to him 'it was scary'. C'mon how damn cheesy is that.
I do get your point, and I've had the feeling that working on two projects at the same time was a bad decision as well. But then again, there is no reason to insult the telltale stuff. I think they are doing their best, and handling the pressure that comes from the expectations set by the first episode is pretty hard.
I do think Telltale is working hard, but this one hour thing, the fact that they took out the involving hub areas for most of the season, an… mored that all kind of feels like a result of working on three other franchises, and the problems people are having with the season could of easily been avoided if Telltale simply took their time with the story and characters.
There is a difference between becoming numb to death and becoming apathetic as a result of poor writing.
I am not "complaining" as a result of there being little hope to continue, I am pointing out writing that makes no sense in the story.
TTG deliberately built up multiple nuanced and interesting characters only to completely invalidate them. They continue to present themselves as deep and meaningful storytellers while they have completely ruined their own prior writing in the space of two episodes.
I think you made some valid points. Season two has it's fair share of problems. For example, the deaths are not as shocking. Then again, I t… morehink that the main reason for that is that there has been too much death already.
What is upsetting folks around here is not the way deaths are handled or which characters die - the death of Sarah was not as inconsequential as expressed by many users.
But what is upsetting the community is the absolut lack of hope or something to cheer you up.
In season one, you always had hope. Even when Lee was bit at the end of episode four, what made you strong was the hope to save Clementine.
Since the end of the second episode, hope is completely gone. Everything is dark and depressing. That's why I loved the raccoon scene so much. But still, all the death, the pain, it feels overused - because you can't base a game just on that depressing stuff. Everything turns to shit, no matter what you do.
However, seas… [view original content]
See? That your problem. Stop investing your soul into that game. Robert Kirkman and his crew are mad and mean men and women who just want us to feel sad and angry about our favourite characters. We don't have to over-analyse it.
After issue 100 of the comics, I realized all that and now everything is better.
You make is sound like I just don't like the fact that Sarah dies and there's nothing you can do about it, but that's not what I meant for i… moret to sound like.
I actually agree with you, in the past episodes, Sarah has been built up this way, and a breakdown was not out of character. I didn't expect Sarah to be able to turn into a zombie-killing badass, and I didn't want her to. And I realize that her character itself is consistent in episode 4. But her treatment is not.
Telltale is completely disrespectful to her character, there is nothing to indicate that you shouldn't just completely give up on her. Multiple characters are belittling and downright abusive to her and you are never given the opportunity to call them out, disagree, or even acknowledge that it happened. She is treated as hopeless from the beginning.
There was barely any acknowledgment that Clementine is friends with Sarah, that they've been through a lot and may have buil… [view original content]
While that bothers you, I think that is what makes the second season great. Characters die without having some kind of pay-off, some kind of moment that validates their existence. They are just human beings who can die at any moment. Death is meaningless. Death is meaningless and hopeless. That's a point I love about season two.
There is a difference between becoming numb to death and becoming apathetic as a result of poor writing.
I am not "complaining" as a resu… morelt of there being little hope to continue, I am pointing out writing that makes no sense in the story.
TTG deliberately built up multiple nuanced and interesting characters only to completely invalidate them. They continue to present themselves as deep and meaningful storytellers while they have completely ruined their own prior writing in the space of two episodes.
I read all of this and I couldn't agree with you more. It was a very disappointing episode and that's all down to extremely bad writing. Eve… moren mike and bonnie's comment on Kenny's reaction to mike trying to talk to him 'it was scary'. C'mon how damn cheesy is that.
If you didn't care about Sarah, that's fine. That does not excuse Telltale completely contradicting their own treatment of her.
There are many moments in the game where you can try to convince her and even Luke that Clem kept her humanity.
Yeah, you can say that the group isn't bad, you aren't abandoning them etc. but these lines are just giving the dog a bone, it's the standard "good" dialogue choice along with the "neutral" and "evil" one. The narrative itself does not allow a Clementine who might have actually cared about this concept to follow through on it.
Do you read to comics? Because a lot of the romance and sex is random in it. A LOT.
But it isn't completely contradictory to the characters and useless to the plot. Unless it's bad writing. Which in this case I think it was. Jane was shown to be completely pragmatic, extremely focused on survival, a loner, even antisocial, this type of thing does not make any sense with her character at all.
Actually it does. She was extremely pragmatic but I think the time with Clementine somehow made her vulnerable. That's why she left the group at the end, because she realized that she begins to trust them, and it makes her vulnerable.
If you didn't care about Sarah, that's fine. That does not excuse Telltale completely contradicting their own treatment of her.
There … moreare many moments in the game where you can try to convince her and even Luke that Clem kept her humanity.
Yeah, you can say that the group isn't bad, you aren't abandoning them etc. but these lines are just giving the dog a bone, it's the standard "good" dialogue choice along with the "neutral" and "evil" one. The narrative itself does not allow a Clementine who might have actually cared about this concept to follow through on it.
Do you read to comics? Because a lot of the romance and sex is random in it. A LOT.
But it isn't completely contradictory to the characters and useless to the plot. Unless it's bad writing. Which in this case I think it was. Jane was shown to be completely pragmatic, extremely focused on survival, a loner, even antisocial, this type of thing does not make any sense with her character at all.
It is okay to complain and stuff. But it does not have to be "Shame on you, Telltale". Guys, I'm sure they do their best.
I'm pointing out valid points, not just complaining. And lots of people are NOT sure that they "do their best". Seeing as I've seen tons of ideas that would have easily fixed previous problems and made more sense than what we ended up getting this episode.
I was confident that this episode was going to fix all the previous problems in the season, I gave them the full benefit of the doubt, and avoided all spoilers, speculation, and info beforehand so as not to be disappointed.
Telltale has deliberately built and encouraged this mindset in their fans with the constant reminders that "every choice counts", "we listen to our fans", that this is "all about the story". You do not build that kind of reputation and then expect to be showered with praise when you completely contradict it.
It's Telltale who is being disrespectful. You do not build a fanbase and promise them top-notch storytelling only to take a huge shit all over it. You do not excuse bad storytelling and butchery of your own characterization just because youre "under a lot of pressure".
And besides, they continue to receive all the 9 star reviews anyway, so they really probly don't give a crap what I'm saying.
I want to add: It is okay to complain and stuff. But it does not have to be "Shame on you, Telltale".
Guys, I'm sure they do their best. Th… moree expectations for season two were INCREDIBLY high. Everyone expected a masterpiece, and you have to be able to handle that pressure.
Personally, I enjoy season two far more than season one, but that's just my personal opinion. I get it if people are let down because of one reason or another.
But telltale is really putting some hard work into this. You cannot always please everyone.
And it does not have to be a "Shame on you, Telltale". That's... disrespectful.
I did not say that I think it's bad you are pointing out valid points. I get most of them (even though they don't bother me as much as they bother you). It's the agressive "Shame on you" "You don't give a crap about fans" tone that I don't like. It's not necessary, dude.
It is okay to complain and stuff. But it does not have to be "Shame on you, Telltale". Guys, I'm sure they do their best.
I'm pointi… moreng out valid points, not just complaining. And lots of people are NOT sure that they "do their best". Seeing as I've seen tons of ideas that would have easily fixed previous problems and made more sense than what we ended up getting this episode.
I was confident that this episode was going to fix all the previous problems in the season, I gave them the full benefit of the doubt, and avoided all spoilers, speculation, and info beforehand so as not to be disappointed.
Telltale has deliberately built and encouraged this mindset in their fans with the constant reminders that "every choice counts", "we listen to our fans", that this is "all about the story". You do not build that kind of reputation and then expect to be showered with praise when you completely contradict it.
It's Telltale who is being… [view original content]
This is a good point. I'm not discouraged by all this "turn for the worse" and darkness in the game. I'm bothered by the fact that it's pointless. Darkness for the sake of realism isn't even being emphasized as a theme, it's just an excuse for the poor writing. I can't excuse the fact that they completely wasted multiple characters and plot points for no reason.
I like the negativity in the game. What I don't like is that there's no real illusion of choice. I'm not even asking for actual choice - jus… moret the illusion of choice making a difference. If you were able to get Sarah to live only for her to die next episode in the shootout, at least then the choices in episode 4 would have felt, at the time, to have made a difference.
We could sit here and argue all day over whether or not Telltale deserves my anger with them, we could go back and forth talking about whether the creator/artist/writer owes anything to their audience etc etc. I get that you don't think what I'm saying is necessary, but I am expressing my honest feelings in response to this episode. I at least respect Telltale enough to not sugarcoat how I feel.
If they were so intent on killing off characters like Sarah and Nick who were interesting and nuanced characters who many people strongly identified with and thought they were finally being represented, they could at least put minimal effort into treating their characters with the respect they deserve, by not completely forgetting about them (Nick in ep3) or by at least making their death not mean absolutely nothing in Sarah's case.
Whether intentional or just miscommunication between the writers, this episode was a complete mess, and just because Telltale is "probably doing their best" doesn't make my opinion any less valid.
I did not say that I think it's bad you are pointing out valid points. I get most of them (even though they don't bother me as much as they … morebother you). It's the agressive "Shame on you" "You don't give a crap about fans" tone that I don't like. It's not necessary, dude.
We could sit here and argue all day over whether or not Telltale deserves my anger with them, we could go back and forth talking about wheth… moreer the creator/artist/writer owes anything to their audience etc etc. I get that you don't think what I'm saying is necessary, but I am expressing my honest feelings in response to this episode. I at least respect Telltale enough to not sugarcoat how I feel.
If they were so intent on killing off characters like Sarah and Nick who were interesting and nuanced characters who many people strongly identified with and thought they were finally being represented, they could at least put minimal effort into treating their characters with the respect they deserve, by not completely forgetting about them (Nick in ep3) or by at least making their death not mean absolutely nothing in Sarah's case.
Whether intentional or just miscommunication between the writers, this episode was a complete mess, and just because Telltale is "probably doing their best" doesn't make my opinion any less valid.
In my perspective, I'm calling it a complete mess because it completely ruined all the potential and missed all its chances to fix where the writing was lacking in previous episodes. There were good things about the episode, but there were also such huge and glaringly awful mistakes that I just can't forgive it.
For example with Nick and Sarah, they could have given Nick some kind of participation in the story that made sense with his original personality. They could have allowed you to interact with Sarah as if you are actually her friend instead of just having the option to say so then being like "welp i guess she's nuts now". If they were so determined for her and Nick to die, they could have found a way to do it in a way that was respectful and consistent with their characters.
Hell, if they were set on creating this nihilistic "everyone dies and there's nothing you can do", they could have at least explored it as a theme. It was barely ever touched on in the story, and it's just being used as an excuse for them dropping characters for no reason.
I do get your point, I really do. I never cared about Nick to begin with, so maybe that does not bother me as drastically as it does bother you. And if I'd share your point of view, I'd be angry as well.
Determinants were handled a bit better in season one, yes. Then again, that season had some flaws as well: The fourth episode wasted a lot of potential (crawford), had a stupid character (molly), a useless sequence (sewers). The finale of the first season (the stranger) was outright stupid.
I think that the first three episodes of the first season have been brillant and work as stand alone episodes. Especially how they handled Carley - she died nontheless, but yeah, she had some impact (even though she was missing in the second episode).
Still, the third episode gave not a lot of possibilites for you to talk to Nick, and Sarah went nuts after her Dad died.
"Shame on you" is a little bit of an overreaction; I still vouch for that
In my perspective, I'm calling it a complete mess because it completely ruined all the potential and missed all its chances to fix where the… more writing was lacking in previous episodes. There were good things about the episode, but there were also such huge and glaringly awful mistakes that I just can't forgive it.
For example with Nick and Sarah, they could have given Nick some kind of participation in the story that made sense with his original personality. They could have allowed you to interact with Sarah as if you are actually her friend instead of just having the option to say so then being like "welp i guess she's nuts now". If they were so determined for her and Nick to die, they could have found a way to do it in a way that was respectful and consistent with their characters.
Hell, if they were set on creating this nihilistic "everyone dies and there's nothing you can do", they could have at least explored it as a theme. It was ba… [view original content]
Telltale has built up the reputation that they are serious and thought-provoking STORYTELLERS.
You don't mash together a group of highly interesting characters with large potential only to kill them off with no purpose to the plot or themes whatsoever.
This "death is meaningless and hopeless" has barely been even touched on before this episode. If that were true, then maybe I'd be able to accept it. But it's not.
While that bothers you, I think that is what makes the second season great. Characters die without having some kind of pay-off, some kind of… more moment that validates their existence. They are just human beings who can die at any moment. Death is meaningless. Death is meaningless and hopeless. That's a point I love about season two.
I think it's been touched subtle throughout the whole second season and it was one of the main points of the fourth episode. "They're all gonna die, Clementine." "Don't pretend you're the only one who has lost people." "You can't save everyone." blah blah.
This must be the millionth time I've said this.
This is a STORY.
Telltale has built up the reputation that they are serious and though… moret-provoking STORYTELLERS.
You don't mash together a group of highly interesting characters with large potential only to kill them off with no purpose to the plot or themes whatsoever.
This "death is meaningless and hopeless" has barely been even touched on before this episode. If that were true, then maybe I'd be able to accept it. But it's not.
Actually it does. She was extremely pragmatic but I think the time with Clementine somehow made her vulnerable. That's why she left the group at the end, because she realized that she begins to trust them, and it makes her vulnerable.
Because you might enjoy five minutes where you can just shut off your brain and don't think about this world. Happens in the comic all the time.
And I described it the other way round.
"Wow, I described Clem as my partner, told her about my sister and went to Luke for comfort. Time to leave, I'm getting vulnerable."
That may be true, and it's a valid point. But it has nothing to do with the reason why she suddenly decides she needs a quickie with Luke.
"oops I'm becoming vulnerable. Time to get in Luke's pants!"
@TT247 I agree with everything you said about Sarah,everything,i feel like ive lost a friend today,it's weird...also it's fans like you who care so much that give the game it's soul,great great post.
Yeah I get what you're saying. But all those themes are still different from "death is meaningless", u know?
I think ppl might be getting the idea that I just think this season has just crashed and burned because I don't like the way it turned out. But what I'm saying is that each episode stands well on its own but as a whole the season is just filled with huge inconsistencies. It's like the writers just did not communicate with each other at all.
I think it's been touched subtle throughout the whole second season and it was one of the main points of the fourth episode. "They're all go… morenna die, Clementine." "Don't pretend you're the only one who has lost people." "You can't save everyone." blah blah.
I don't think the ones complaining should be telling anyone to "deal with it". I mean that's just hypocritical. You told journey to get a grip on himself but he's not the one flipping out over a game xD. I agree with the points made....kinda even though i like this season better than the first. Theres nothing wrong with complaining. I personlly encourage it to a certain extent. When you start making threats to boycott and writing a novel for a complaint thats just taking it too far. If a game upsets you the point where you're willing to take it that far well then maybe you should stop playing and move on to another game. Just saying.
Wow, the OP brings up a ton of good points and your response is a flippant 'you're a whiner.'
Get a grip on yourself. The episode was NOT good compared to last season, or even compared to other episodes in THIS season. Deal with it.
Yeah, I have to play it in one go once the final episode is released. So far I have played each episode 3-4 times once it's released. The bigger picture might be weaker. Dunno. I do get a lot of the disappointment, but it's still a really good game and it's still fun playing.
You gotta admit, though, those flaws that you adressed already came up at the end of the first season.
Yeah I get what you're saying. But all those themes are still different from "death is meaningless", u know?
I think ppl might be getting… more the idea that I just think this season has just crashed and burned because I don't like the way it turned out. But what I'm saying is that each episode stands well on its own but as a whole the season is just filled with huge inconsistencies. It's like the writers just did not communicate with each other at all.
You make some good points but I don't care to look too deeply at everything therefore I can enjoy the episode and story that is being told. I'd hate to scrutinize every minute detail and end up just completely disappointed by the entire season.
Comments
I think you made some valid points. Season two has it's fair share of problems. For example, the deaths are not as shocking. Then again, I think that the main reason for that is that there has been too much death already.
What is upsetting folks around here is not the way deaths are handled or which characters die - the death of Sarah was not as inconsequential as expressed by many users.
But what is upsetting the community is the absolut lack of hope or something to cheer you up.
In season one, you always had hope. Even when Lee was bit at the end of episode four, what made you strong was the hope to save Clementine.
Since the end of the second episode, hope is completely gone. Everything is dark and depressing. That's why I loved the raccoon scene so much. But still, all the death, the pain, it feels overused - because you can't base a game just on that depressing stuff. Everything turns to shit, no matter what you do.
However, season one had it's fair share of problems as well. The ending made no sense at all, Crawford was a lot of wasted potential, the character Molly made no sense at all. But you had more motivation to keep going, because you fought for a better life.
Now, at the end of episode four, everything is bad. There has never been a situation more hopeless and dark. I do hope that the fifth episode will show Clem overcome this and end on a hopeful tone for the third season.
Then again, if Telltale is planning for three seasons, it would be a classical structure for the second season to end at a hopeless down low.
I think that a lot of the community members express their opinion in a bad way because there really is no reason to keep going like this. Clem will eventually break and die.
Still, I love the story, the places it takes us. It's very entertaining. The story itself is better than season one, I think, and I enjoyed the second season far more. Could be because I absolutely dig the character Clem and can't get enough of her. But the story is at an all time down depressing low.
Read the whole thing. I agree with this. All the things mentioned above in the OP was a mess.
If negativity is an issue, you're certainly playing the wrong game whether or not they're doing it right or wrong. lol
Wow! I never really liked Sarah so I have a lot of trouble relating to your post. Also, I actually liked episodes 3 and 4... To me, Sarah was a burden and a lost cause. I tried to comfort her, to help her, to save her, but she died, as most people do in the comics and the game. That's life...
I think this game is genius! Not perfect, but damn fun!
Also... About that:
Just no.
There are many moments in the game where you can try to convince her and even Luke that Clem kept her humanity. Seems like you simply made the wrong choices with dialogues...
And that...
Do you read to comics? Because a lot of the romance and sex is random in it. A LOT. So... Stay canonical or GTFO. (/mean joke)
Wow, the OP brings up a ton of good points and your response is a flippant 'you're a whiner.'
Get a grip on yourself. The episode was NOT good compared to last season, or even compared to other episodes in THIS season. Deal with it.
I want to add: It is okay to complain and stuff. But it does not have to be "Shame on you, Telltale".
Guys, I'm sure they do their best. The expectations for season two were INCREDIBLY high. Everyone expected a masterpiece, and you have to be able to handle that pressure.
Personally, I enjoy season two far more than season one, but that's just my personal opinion. I get it if people are let down because of one reason or another.
But telltale is really putting some hard work into this. You cannot always please everyone.
And it does not have to be a "Shame on you, Telltale". That's... disrespectful.
I like the negativity in the game. What I don't like is that there's no real illusion of choice. I'm not even asking for actual choice - just the illusion of choice making a difference. If you were able to get Sarah to live only for her to die next episode in the shootout, at least then the choices in episode 4 would have felt, at the time, to have made a difference.
That's the difference between Season 1 and Season 2. In Season 1, you had the actual hope that they might survive, or at least some of them might. In season 2, everything seems so railroaded that you're pretty much going to assume 'well everyone's going to die' - so there's no real reason to become emotionally invested in the characters like people were in Season 1.
I do get that, and I do get why that bothers a lot of people. Then again, I became emotionally invested with many characters, and I still want to save Clem.
Bless you, OP.
Yeah, good for having myopia
I do think Telltale is working hard, but this one hour thing, the fact that they took out the involving hub areas for most of the season, and that all kind of feels like a result of working on three other franchises, and the problems people are having with the season could of easily been avoided if Telltale simply took their time with the story and characters.
So it's not brave for a 15-year old girl who doesn't know how to defend herself -and was unable to even if she did know how (since her hands are tied at the time)- to speak up against the very same adult who just beat and nearly killed her father the day before?
This is more of a game mechanics issue than insight into her character. If Clem doesn't get the medicine, it's game over. That doesn't change the fact that Telltale specifically builds this scene in an attempt to emphasize that Sarah is going to be an important and complex character. Everyone has to go through this conversation, so everyone is going to see it and have insight on Sarah. Several important themes are touched on within the conversation (trust, friendship, innocence). And we are revealed several things about her character in the conversation (her relationship with her dad, her naiveté, and eagerness to make friends) There is nothing to indicate that Sarah is supposed to be one-dimensional, hopeless, or a "waste of space".
Just because what happened to her was a logical result of events in the episode does not excuse the writing itself. It does not excuse the fact that the episode was written in a way that erased all prior duality or complexity to her character.
In episodes before this, the situation was always two-sided- do you support her or dismiss her? Do you try to shelter her from the world or do you try to open her eyes? And there was always an option for Clem to be kind, supportive, and respectful toward her.
Her treatment in this episode on the other hand was not respectful or understanding from any perspective. The writing is very obviously focused on the viewpoint that Sarah is a burden, clueless, and hopelessly dependent. The most sympathy her character receives is from Jane and Luke and even then she is only used as a crutch to reveal weak insight on their characters. The only other character shown to genuinely care is Rebecca in an extra line or two, but even that feels half-assed and insincere on the writers part, since they specifically made Rebecca be the "default person who reacts emotionally" in this episode, such as when she is more upset at Nick's death than Luke.
Sarah was the personification of hope for fans who are continually denied fair and honest representation in media, and Telltale recieved high praise that she was created to be a complex and sympathetic character. Only for them to completely turn around and write her off without sympathy or player choice in the matter. Killing her served no purpose to the story, it did not illustrate any themes or connections to the plot. The only possible theme that people interpret it to represent -futility or hopelessness in the world- comes as a result of the shoddy writing, not as a theme that was built up to.
I read all of this and I couldn't agree with you more. It was a very disappointing episode and that's all down to extremely bad writing. Even mike and bonnie's comment on Kenny's reaction to mike trying to talk to him 'it was scary'. C'mon how damn cheesy is that.
I do get your point, and I've had the feeling that working on two projects at the same time was a bad decision as well. But then again, there is no reason to insult the telltale stuff. I think they are doing their best, and handling the pressure that comes from the expectations set by the first episode is pretty hard.
There is a difference between becoming numb to death and becoming apathetic as a result of poor writing.
I am not "complaining" as a result of there being little hope to continue, I am pointing out writing that makes no sense in the story.
TTG deliberately built up multiple nuanced and interesting characters only to completely invalidate them. They continue to present themselves as deep and meaningful storytellers while they have completely ruined their own prior writing in the space of two episodes.
See? That your problem. Stop investing your soul into that game. Robert Kirkman and his crew are mad and mean men and women who just want us to feel sad and angry about our favourite characters. We don't have to over-analyse it.
After issue 100 of the comics, I realized all that and now everything is better.
[minor corrections (typo)]
While that bothers you, I think that is what makes the second season great. Characters die without having some kind of pay-off, some kind of moment that validates their existence. They are just human beings who can die at any moment. Death is meaningless. Death is meaningless and hopeless. That's a point I love about season two.
There's a difference between extremely bad and not great. Watch the movie "The Room", then talk to me about extremely bad writing.
If you didn't care about Sarah, that's fine. That does not excuse Telltale completely contradicting their own treatment of her.
Yeah, you can say that the group isn't bad, you aren't abandoning them etc. but these lines are just giving the dog a bone, it's the standard "good" dialogue choice along with the "neutral" and "evil" one. The narrative itself does not allow a Clementine who might have actually cared about this concept to follow through on it.
But it isn't completely contradictory to the characters and useless to the plot. Unless it's bad writing. Which in this case I think it was. Jane was shown to be completely pragmatic, extremely focused on survival, a loner, even antisocial, this type of thing does not make any sense with her character at all.
Actually it does. She was extremely pragmatic but I think the time with Clementine somehow made her vulnerable. That's why she left the group at the end, because she realized that she begins to trust them, and it makes her vulnerable.
Click here
Good advice. You should try that.
I'm pointing out valid points, not just complaining. And lots of people are NOT sure that they "do their best". Seeing as I've seen tons of ideas that would have easily fixed previous problems and made more sense than what we ended up getting this episode.
I was confident that this episode was going to fix all the previous problems in the season, I gave them the full benefit of the doubt, and avoided all spoilers, speculation, and info beforehand so as not to be disappointed.
Telltale has deliberately built and encouraged this mindset in their fans with the constant reminders that "every choice counts", "we listen to our fans", that this is "all about the story". You do not build that kind of reputation and then expect to be showered with praise when you completely contradict it.
It's Telltale who is being disrespectful. You do not build a fanbase and promise them top-notch storytelling only to take a huge shit all over it. You do not excuse bad storytelling and butchery of your own characterization just because youre "under a lot of pressure".
And besides, they continue to receive all the 9 star reviews anyway, so they really probly don't give a crap what I'm saying.
I did not say that I think it's bad you are pointing out valid points. I get most of them (even though they don't bother me as much as they bother you). It's the agressive "Shame on you" "You don't give a crap about fans" tone that I don't like. It's not necessary, dude.
This is a good point. I'm not discouraged by all this "turn for the worse" and darkness in the game. I'm bothered by the fact that it's pointless. Darkness for the sake of realism isn't even being emphasized as a theme, it's just an excuse for the poor writing. I can't excuse the fact that they completely wasted multiple characters and plot points for no reason.
We could sit here and argue all day over whether or not Telltale deserves my anger with them, we could go back and forth talking about whether the creator/artist/writer owes anything to their audience etc etc. I get that you don't think what I'm saying is necessary, but I am expressing my honest feelings in response to this episode. I at least respect Telltale enough to not sugarcoat how I feel.
If they were so intent on killing off characters like Sarah and Nick who were interesting and nuanced characters who many people strongly identified with and thought they were finally being represented, they could at least put minimal effort into treating their characters with the respect they deserve, by not completely forgetting about them (Nick in ep3) or by at least making their death not mean absolutely nothing in Sarah's case.
Whether intentional or just miscommunication between the writers, this episode was a complete mess, and just because Telltale is "probably doing their best" doesn't make my opinion any less valid.
It was not a "complete mess". Good god.
In my perspective, I'm calling it a complete mess because it completely ruined all the potential and missed all its chances to fix where the writing was lacking in previous episodes. There were good things about the episode, but there were also such huge and glaringly awful mistakes that I just can't forgive it.
For example with Nick and Sarah, they could have given Nick some kind of participation in the story that made sense with his original personality. They could have allowed you to interact with Sarah as if you are actually her friend instead of just having the option to say so then being like "welp i guess she's nuts now". If they were so determined for her and Nick to die, they could have found a way to do it in a way that was respectful and consistent with their characters.
Hell, if they were set on creating this nihilistic "everyone dies and there's nothing you can do", they could have at least explored it as a theme. It was barely ever touched on in the story, and it's just being used as an excuse for them dropping characters for no reason.
I do get your point, I really do. I never cared about Nick to begin with, so maybe that does not bother me as drastically as it does bother you. And if I'd share your point of view, I'd be angry as well.
Determinants were handled a bit better in season one, yes. Then again, that season had some flaws as well: The fourth episode wasted a lot of potential (crawford), had a stupid character (molly), a useless sequence (sewers). The finale of the first season (the stranger) was outright stupid.
I think that the first three episodes of the first season have been brillant and work as stand alone episodes. Especially how they handled Carley - she died nontheless, but yeah, she had some impact (even though she was missing in the second episode).
Still, the third episode gave not a lot of possibilites for you to talk to Nick, and Sarah went nuts after her Dad died.
"Shame on you" is a little bit of an overreaction; I still vouch for that
This must be the millionth time I've said this.
This is a STORY.
Telltale has built up the reputation that they are serious and thought-provoking STORYTELLERS.
You don't mash together a group of highly interesting characters with large potential only to kill them off with no purpose to the plot or themes whatsoever.
This "death is meaningless and hopeless" has barely been even touched on before this episode. If that were true, then maybe I'd be able to accept it. But it's not.
I think it's been touched subtle throughout the whole second season and it was one of the main points of the fourth episode. "They're all gonna die, Clementine." "Don't pretend you're the only one who has lost people." "You can't save everyone." blah blah.
That may be true, and it's a valid point. But it has nothing to do with the reason why she suddenly decides she needs a quickie with Luke.
"oops I'm becoming vulnerable. Time to get in Luke's pants!"
Because you might enjoy five minutes where you can just shut off your brain and don't think about this world. Happens in the comic all the time.
And I described it the other way round.
"Wow, I described Clem as my partner, told her about my sister and went to Luke for comfort. Time to leave, I'm getting vulnerable."
@TT247 I agree with everything you said about Sarah,everything,i feel like ive lost a friend today,it's weird...also it's fans like you who care so much that give the game it's soul,great great post.
Yeah I get what you're saying. But all those themes are still different from "death is meaningless", u know?
I think ppl might be getting the idea that I just think this season has just crashed and burned because I don't like the way it turned out. But what I'm saying is that each episode stands well on its own but as a whole the season is just filled with huge inconsistencies. It's like the writers just did not communicate with each other at all.
I don't think the ones complaining should be telling anyone to "deal with it". I mean that's just hypocritical. You told journey to get a grip on himself but he's not the one flipping out over a game xD. I agree with the points made....kinda even though i like this season better than the first. Theres nothing wrong with complaining. I personlly encourage it to a certain extent. When you start making threats to boycott and writing a novel for a complaint thats just taking it too far. If a game upsets you the point where you're willing to take it that far well then maybe you should stop playing and move on to another game. Just saying.
Yeah, I have to play it in one go once the final episode is released. So far I have played each episode 3-4 times once it's released. The bigger picture might be weaker. Dunno. I do get a lot of the disappointment, but it's still a really good game and it's still fun playing.
You gotta admit, though, those flaws that you adressed already came up at the end of the first season.
You make some good points but I don't care to look too deeply at everything therefore I can enjoy the episode and story that is being told. I'd hate to scrutinize every minute detail and end up just completely disappointed by the entire season.
Really, a downvote for that? Who thinks that the room is written better than TWD S2? Please speak up.