The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't been for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
Just because there was one situation in which Clem would have been dead if not for someone's intervention does not demonstrate that Telltale is attempting to focus on Clem's futility and helplessness.
You are insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation. But these sequences are just a part of gameplay.
Clem was shown to be the most suitable to perform multiple tasks, such as stealing the walkie-talkies and turning on the speakers. In these cases, Clem was not shown to have physical limitations. The fact that she was a little girl only made it easier for her to complete the task.
If Telltale was trying to present Clem as having physical limitations that enhance the futility of the situation we shouldn't have to be sitting here in a complete standstill arguing over it.
Having adults constantly asking Clem do things is a different story, but I thought they handled it well enough in this latest episode.
I was pointing out that adults depending on her to solve their problems contradicts her depiction as being helpless and alone.
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't b… moreeen for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
Having adults constantly asking Clem do things is a different story, but I thought they handled it well enough in this latest episode.
Jane brought Clem along, not because she was more capable than the others but because she wanted to talk to her and teach her survival tactics. Bonnie asked Clem to go get Kenny out of the tent because she was the only one there who knew him for more than 2 days. In the museum, when Bonnie suggests that Clem squeeze herself in and unlock the door from the other side, you can outright say no and she'll respect that, despite her request being no different than what Lee was having Clem do back when she was even younger. All of those made she for her to be the one they turned to, unlike the infamous windmill incident.
You said just about all of it. The season is lame. It's sad, because it had so much potential. I am only playing it because I bought all five episodes when episode 1 came out. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.
If you ask me, I don't think they built her up as nuanced character. In fact, from the beginning the game made me felt "man, she's going to … moredie sooner rather than later".
Not saying it doesn't suck, but the way they wrote her, ever since the beginning, always felt like she was "off" from the beginning. Just my two cents.
You see, I don't think written her with nuance or subtlety in the beginning at all. I think they it was pretty obvious where (read: unsubtle… more and unnuanced) on what direction they were taking Sarah in. I thought TTG had a fuzzy idea on WHAT to do with her, but had a pretty clear idea on who she is (which I think they pretty unsubtle and unnuanced about).
I'm not defending on how they treated Sarah, but I think saying they had subtle and nuanced writing for her is...well, it seemed pretty obvious to me on who and what she was in the beginning.
Look, all I'm saying is, I'm agreeing you that they could treated the situation better. I can't dispute that. But I'm not too sure that your claims they had treated with respect, nuance, or subtlety is true in the first place, but rather, it's something I'm not even sure they did. If they did treat her that way, she wouldn't have died the ways she did in first place.
But I can see that's your last piece on that, I'll go read a couple of pages back.
Look, all I'm saying is, I'm agreeing you that they could treated the situation better. I can't dispute that. But I'm not too sure that your… more claims they had treated with respect, nuance, or subtlety is true in the first place, but rather, it's something I'm not even sure they did. If they did treat her that way, she wouldn't have died the ways she did in first place.
But I can see that's your last piece on that, I'll go read a couple of pages back.
Just his posts, and I agree with much of what he said, though I don't feel quite as strongly as he does...not to mention my emphasis is quite different.
For one thing, you seem to think they originally treated Sarah with respect, nuance, and subtlety, but I have doubts they even did that in the first place. If you ask me, I would suspect TTG didn't even even write Sarah in subtle or nuanced manner.
look at page 2, I explain how Sarah was treated with respect & nuance. Her character was never portrayed as one-dimensional or hopeless until episode 4.
Just his posts, and I agree with much of what he said, though I don't feel quite as strongly as he does...not to mention my emphasis is quit… moree different.
For one thing, you seem to think they originally treated Sarah with respect, nuance, and subtlety, but I have doubts they even did that in the first place. If you ask me, I would suspect TTG didn't even even write Sarah in subtle or nuanced manner.
You are insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation.
I...never said that? You were the one who brought Clem's physical capabilities into the futility discussion. I only responded to your claim because I disagreed that Clem being physically capable was something new or that it hampers the feeling of futility.
If being a capable badass were enough to combat futility, it wouldn't be futility. Hopelessness if brought about when things happen that you can't help no matter how capable you are. Lee was strong and a great mediator but could do nothing when a crazy woman snapped and acted without rationality. Kenny is one of the most resilient sons of bitches in the game, but could still do nothing as his loved one were snatched away again and again. Jane was a strong capable survivor but she couldn't do anything to help her sister.
Those are situations that breed futility. It's not when Clem isn't able to kill a zombie. It's when Clem is able to kill a zombie but everybody dies anyway.
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't b… moreeen for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
Just because there was one situation in which Clem would have been dead if not for someone's intervention does not demonstrate that Telltale is attempting to focus on Clem's futility and helplessness.
You are insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation. But these sequences are just a part of gameplay.
Clem was shown to be the most suitable to perform multiple tasks, such as stealing the walkie-talkies and turning on the speakers. In these cases, Clem was not shown to have physical limitations. The fact that she was a little girl only made it easier for her to complete the task.
If Telltale was trying to present Clem as having physical limitations that enhance… [view original content]
Considering "out of kayfabe" issues, I think this has to do with the fact they are dealing with more than one game at a time. It used to be Telltale would work on one game completely while a second game is in the background after the next game completes. If you look at the timing, The Wolf Among us started first, and if it weren't for Telltale doing TWD Season 2, I think Telltale would have finished TWAU by late Spring, at worst.
Additionally, working on several games at once means they have limit on how much time they spend on each game. That means limiting little details and what not.
I'm not condoning what they are doing. It's simply what the situation is, even it's not what the situation should be. Either Telltale goes back to one game at a time, or they grow bigger. They can't remain as small as they are and pump out more than one game without sacrificing some quality.
When I finished Amid the Ruins I decided to look back on the entire walking dead season 1 and 2, and I've realized that the reason season 1 … morewas better was the overall feeling you got from the game, like the hub sections, the hubs in Amid the Ruins were disgraceful with the one line from each character and then back to walking around, Telltale simply missed what the hubs did, they gave a feeling of calm and allowed the player to choose who they wanted to talk to and to learn about but now it's just talk to Kenny now go talk to Luke, don't wanna talk to Luke WELL TO BAD. And the character development is pure shit this season. Like the thing with Carlos and Sarah, I mean it was really obvious Carlos was gonna be hang, drawn, and quartered as soon as we met Sarah and how Sarah would have to adapt to this new world without her father's shadow but nope, instead it's "oh Sarah freaked out! Well I guess we gotta leave her to get torn apart, too bad s… [view original content]
As I understood it, your point was that the episodes 3 and 4 makes Clem into an uber-badass, which "invalidates" the narrative trajectory of Episodes 1 and 2. My point is that Episodes 3 and 4 are exploring a different aspects of strength than the ones explored in 1 and 2. In Episodes 1 and 2, Clem's capacity to protect herself were put to the test. Episodes 3 and 4 tested her willingness to look out for others. There is no invalidation here.
I replied
Well, no
My point was that changing Clem into a badass in episodes 3 and 4 invalidated the previous theme of helplessness and futility and the emphasis that she's "just a little girl".
You replied
Well, I've still got some fight left in me.
I don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4.
Episode 1 included a sequence in which Clementine broke out of a shed, snuck into a house undetected, stole a bunch of supplies, a stitched her own arm up, and killed a zombie in a confined space. Episode 2 had Clementine taking out several walkers by herself to save Luke on the bridge and settling a dispute between two factions. Episode 3 had her struggling to get away from a walker and being saved by Troy. Episode 4 had her being saved by Mike and being mentored by Jane most of the time, rather than taking charge herself. They even gave her an unwinnable mashing QTE with the water container.
I refute this by saying
Clem was shown to be the most suitable to perform multiple tasks, such as stealing the walkie-talkies and turning on the speakers. In these cases, Clem was not shown to have physical limitations. The fact that she was a little girl only made it easier for her to complete the task.
This is me refuting your point that Clem's actions in episodes 3 and 4 do in fact "hamper the feeling of futility".
Her being shown to have an easier time at things specifically because she is a little girl does not in any way contribute to a theme of futility or helplessness on account of being a little girl.
You were the one who brought Clem's physical capabilities into the futility discussion. I only responded to your claim because I disagreed that Clem being physically capable was something new or that it hampers the feeling of futility.
I brought her physical capabilities into the discussion to prove that they invalidated the theme of helplessness.
You tried to prove me wrong by saying that she is in fact shown to be helpless throughout the following episodes. You said
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't been for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
You can't defend a point for the sake of prove me wrong and then change your mind when the argument is lost.
You are insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation.
I...never said t… morehat? You were the one who brought Clem's physical capabilities into the futility discussion. I only responded to your claim because I disagreed that Clem being physically capable was something new or that it hampers the feeling of futility.
If being a capable badass were enough to combat futility, it wouldn't be futility. Hopelessness if brought about when things happen that you can't help no matter how capable you are. Lee was strong and a great mediator but could do nothing when a crazy woman snapped and acted without rationality. Kenny is one of the most resilient sons of bitches in the game, but could still do nothing as his loved one were snatched away again and again. Jane was a strong capable survivor but she couldn't do anything to help her sister.
Those are situations that breed futility. I… [view original content]
This has been touched on earlier in the thread. I honestly don't feel like this should be a huge part of the problem.
Doesn't each game have separate dev teams? Even if they don't, TWAU had longer wait times and changes to the plot, but continued to deliver a satisfying and coherent narrative in spite of this.
Compare that to TWDG s2, which has episodes that stand well on their own but as a season does not make consistent narrative/thematic sense.
If they put in the effort, Telltale can make a cohesive and successful story, but in the case of TWDG, they haven't.
Considering "out of kayfabe" issues, I think this has to do with the fact they are dealing with more than one game at a time. It used to be … moreTelltale would work on one game completely while a second game is in the background after the next game completes. If you look at the timing, The Wolf Among us started first, and if it weren't for Telltale doing TWD Season 2, I think Telltale would have finished TWAU by late Spring, at worst.
Additionally, working on several games at once means they have limit on how much time they spend on each game. That means limiting little details and what not.
I'm not condoning what they are doing. It's simply what the situation is, even it's not what the situation should be. Either Telltale goes back to one game at a time, or they grow bigger. They can't remain as small as they are and pump out more than one game without sacrificing some quality.
Okay let's break your central claim down into two parts:
There exists differences in demonstrations of Clementine's physical capabilities between episodes 1 and 2 and episodes 3 and 4.
These differences in hamper the feeling of futility.
The third quote you provided (the one beginning with "Well I still got some fight left in me") was my counterpoint against the first part of your claim. I did not address the second part, because if the first part is shown to be untrue, then the second part becomes irrelevant.
And nowhere did I make the positive claim that "Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I only stated that instances exist in every episode in which Clem is shown to have physical limitations. I did not comment on the relevance of these instances to the feeling of futility. That's the confusion I was trying to point out.
(My post prior to that in which I said that there was no invalidation was based on a misinterpretation of your entire claim. And so if that's where you're getting confused, just wipe it from memory.)
It is only in the my post before this one that I addressed the second part of your claim, pointing out that regardless of whether or not there exist differences in demonstrations of Clementine's physical capabilities between episodes 1 and 2 and episodes 3 and 4, they do not affect the feeling of futility.
I hope that's wasn't too confusing. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.
You said
As I understood it, your point was that the episodes 3 and 4 makes Clem into an uber-badass, which "invalidates" the narrativ… moree trajectory of Episodes 1 and 2. My point is that Episodes 3 and 4 are exploring a different aspects of strength than the ones explored in 1 and 2. In Episodes 1 and 2, Clem's capacity to protect herself were put to the test. Episodes 3 and 4 tested her willingness to look out for others. There is no invalidation here.
I replied
Well, no
My point was that changing Clem into a badass in episodes 3 and 4 invalidated the previous theme of helplessness and futility and the emphasis that she's "just a little girl".
You replied
Well, I've still got some fight left in me.
I don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4.
Episode 1 included a sequence in which Clementine broke out of a shed, snuck into a house unde… [view original content]
Exactly my thoughts, the least they could do is play the episode by themselves like 3 times and find out which parts look weird and in which parts it'd be good to discuss what happened in the past. Lee references were cool but... we had Lee in season 1, we get like 10 references about him, but we don't get any references about previous 3 episodes. Christa is my main problem honestly, I don't want to believe they just cut her completely off, because they didn't like Vanaman's idea that she's pregnant and than introduce new pregnant lady right after...
Hmm well I personally don't think the reason for the last two episode's problems are because they're working on too many projects. I'm prett… morey sure their dev teams for each project are different, right? And TWAU turned out really well. I mean, there seemed to be plenty of last-minute changes and delays but overall it was a very solid and coherent story.
TWDG on the other hand seems to have each episode be focused on completely different themes altogether, with their characters only vaguely resembling what they were originally built up to be. It seems more like it's just a complete failure of communication between the writers.
I didn't have problem with vast majority of characters.
Even though people are raging about what Kenny did and what Luke did, it's explainable, because the emotions ran really high. Though his reaction to Nick could have been better.
The problem I have is definitily Sarita, that was put there just to expand Kenny's character, the same deal was with Katjaa and Duck, but those two you could at least get to know through optional conversations and they played their role in the story multiple times. Walter and Matthew died too soon, they were 100% kind people, which is rare in apocalypse and it'd be interesting to watch their reaction to dangerous situations.
The problem is episodes do not connect by any means except they continue in locations u're situated in. That's a huge problem and unfortunately Telltale won't realise that if they'll focus only on the good things they did in episode 4 (there were good things, sheeple are just splitting to two fractions as usual ; I hate Kenny - Kenny is flawless ; I hate episode 4 - episode 4 is flawless etc. I'm guessing like max 10% fans are discussing both angles of these things)
I will play season 3, since it's still gonna be better than 99% of games that will come out the same year, but I'd be glad if I thought of it as a masterpiece as I did in season 1 (though it wasn't perfect, but it was Telltale first big hit so it was understandable) and not as just a good or great game.
TWAU story and plots were much much better and I hope the main writer of that would move to TWD in case these 2 games wouldn't come out at the same time again.
Last season was great. I would say they set the bar too high, except that even though I thought this new season wasn't as interesting and I … morewasn't as attached to the characters, I was still willing to buy and play it. Since finishing episode 4, though, more and more things started to bother me after I shut the game off, and I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of the points made here. It does feel as though the different writers chose to ignore eachothers work in the interest of doing what they wanted with their episode. At this point, if they do another season of The Walking Dead, I don't think I'll be playing.
The third quote you provided (the one beginning with "Well I still got some fight left in me") was my counterpoint against the first part of your claim.
So your answer to my saying "we have to agree to disagree", is "No, I still have fight left in me". Fair enough.
I did not address the second part, because if the first part is shown to be untrue, then the second part becomes irrelevant.
But you did address the second part. You asserted that themes of futility ARE addressed in the plot.
Proof:
Episode 3 had her struggling to get away from a walker and being saved by Troy. Episode 4 had her being saved by Mike and being mentored by Jane most of the time, rather than taking charge herself. They even gave her an unwinnable mashing QTE with the water container.
.
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't been for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
You try to prove your belief that you "don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4" by telling me that I'm wrong about Clem being portrayed as helpless. Then when you are proven wrong on this point, you say you were never trying to prove it in the first place.
And while we're at it let's not oversimplify this by saying that episodes 1 & 2 were completely coherent and that I only have a problem with episodes 3 & 4. Yes, they were more consistent than 3 and 4, but there were still mistakes which I have already pointed out in multiple posts.
Okay let's break your central claim down into two parts:
* There exists differences in demonstrations of Clementine's physical capabili… moreties between episodes 1 and 2 and episodes 3 and 4.
* These differences in hamper the feeling of futility.
The third quote you provided (the one beginning with "Well I still got some fight left in me") was my counterpoint against the first part of your claim. I did not address the second part, because if the first part is shown to be untrue, then the second part becomes irrelevant.
And nowhere did I make the positive claim that "Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I only stated that instances exist in every episode in which Clem is shown to have physical limitations. I did not comment on the relevance of these instances to the feeling of futility. That's the confusion I was trying to point out.
(My post prior to that in which I said that… [view original content]
For what it's worth keep this thread alive until episode 5 gets released. Telltale needs to know that they fucked up, they won't see it in reviews (even IGN that gave them 6/10 didn't actually point out correctly what was wrong, as usual their reviews seem like attentionwhoring).
I'm pretty sure that at least someone from Telltale is watching this forum and if they'll see the support this thread has, he'll pass it to the rest of the crew. It's time to improve, we'll probly have 1 year, 2 years break before season 3 (if it comes), so they can have a lot to think about, but I'd be glad if I saw improvements in finale of season 2 already.
I wrote the original post from a very emotion-driven place, and it gives you the idea that i just hate hate hate Season 2 and everything about it. I didn't bother emphasizing any of the positive qualities to Season 2 because it would have made the post even longer and look at all the tl;dr's I already got.
I'm not backtracking anything I've said here; I completely stand by the points I've been making. I am only trying to clarify.
Each episode ON ITS OWN is fairly successful and entertaining. The problem I have with this season is that plot points, characters, and themes are completely underutilized and inconsistent. And in relation to each other, the episodes have made less and less narrative sense as the season continues.
The episodes themselves do not carry any overarching themes from one to the next. Instead, each episode in itself briefly touches on something interesting but abandons it in consequent episodes.
The choices make no difference in the plot, and we are often not even offered the illusion that anything makes a difference. They are not shown to make a difference in any way- not plot variation, not character development, and not even superficial changes. The most we usually get is an extra line or two, and sometimes not even that such as when stealing from Arvo results in exactly identical dialogue. Consequently these choices mean nothing to the plot and are wasted.
Determinant characters hover in the background with minimal participation and are then killed off before they can do anything further, often for no purpose to the story. Characters that had previously been developed and nuanced are suddenly portrayed as one dimensional or OOC in what appears to be a forced attempt to make you feel a certain way about them instead of letting you make up your own mind.
Episode 1 started out pretty strong. It wasn't perfect, but there was plenty of room for potential. Then in episode 2, things are a little shaky on some points but it's still ok because there was still plenty of good things about the episode and there was plenty of hope that future episodes could be even better.
Episode 3 is where it really starts to go downhill. Episode 4 is where the whole thing completely collapses, and nearly all prior development is dumped. Read more up in the original post if you want details.
I have no doubt that this season was built with the intention and foundation to be amazing. And that is why I am having such a strong reaction to how it actually turned out.
shrugs Your loss. If anything, if they were soley focused on doing TWD, you know they would have likely done a better in doing character development with Sarah.
This has been touched on earlier in the thread. I honestly don't feel like this should be a huge part of the problem.
Doesn't each game h… moreave separate dev teams? Even if they don't, TWAU had longer wait times and changes to the plot, but continued to deliver a satisfying and coherent narrative in spite of this.
Compare that to TWDG s2, which has episodes that stand well on their own but as a season does not make consistent narrative/thematic sense.
If they put in the effort, Telltale can make a cohesive and successful story, but in the case of TWDG, they haven't.
Quite frankly, it feels like TWD2 is unfocused because TTG themselves are unfocused. They simply had a lot of things do to at once. I'm pretty sure EP5 would fine because there TWAU is finished, and the other planned series haven't been given release dates yet (and when they are, I doubt it would by August).
lol Oh I see. Sorry I wasn't trying to imply that the theme of futility was explored by showing Clem being unable to lift a water container. That would be...silly. I only brought that up because it was a very concrete example of her being shown to have physical limitations. And a pretty mundane one at that.
You try to prove your belief that you "don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4" by telling me that I'm wrong about Clem being portrayed as helpless. Then when you are proven wrong on this point, you say you were never trying to prove it in the first place.
I just told you that I was indeed trying to prove that point. What I was correcting you on was your false belief that I was "insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I wasn't doing that.
I would be happy to continue arguing about whether or not there was a shift in how Clem's physical capabilities were portrayed. I just don't think the answer to that has any relevance in regards to the theme of futility in the season.
The third quote you provided (the one beginning with "Well I still got some fight left in me") was my counterpoint against the first part of… more your claim.
So your answer to my saying "we have to agree to disagree", is "No, I still have fight left in me". Fair enough.
I did not address the second part, because if the first part is shown to be untrue, then the second part becomes irrelevant.
But you did address the second part. You asserted that themes of futility ARE addressed in the plot.
Proof:
Episode 3 had her struggling to get away from a walker and being saved by Troy. Episode 4 had her being saved by Mike and being mentored by Jane most of the time, rather than taking charge herself. They even gave her an unwinnable mashing QTE with the water container.
.
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't be… [view original content]
I also want to add, in a separate post, it's not like Telltale hasn't gone through this before. They had a couple of "blah" series. I suspect they have hit another rough patch and they will learn from this, like the last time.
Sorry I wasn't trying to imply that the theme of futility was explored by showing Clem being unable to lift a water container.
Nobody even mentioned this! The specific reason I pointed out Clem's physical capabilities was a direct rebuttal of your response that her physical capabilities as portrayed in this season are representing a theme of futility.
I just told you that I was indeed trying to prove that point. What I was correcting you on was your false belief that I was "insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I wasn't doing that.
You decided to argue that there was not a shift of focus in the themes of the season by telling me that Clem is consistently portrayed as helpless. You then pointed out examples in the story trying to prove this point. Then whenever I refute them you refuse to acknowledge it.
I would be happy to continue arguing about whether or not there was a shift in how Clem's physical capabilities were portrayed.
If we're going to go there, please start a new response to it in this thread. Looking at this is giving me a headache.
lol Oh I see. Sorry I wasn't trying to imply that the theme of futility was explored by showing Clem being unable to lift a water container.… more That would be...silly. I only brought that up because it was a very concrete example of her being shown to have physical limitations. And a pretty mundane one at that.
You try to prove your belief that you "don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4" by telling me that I'm wrong about Clem being portrayed as helpless. Then when you are proven wrong on this point, you say you were never trying to prove it in the first place.
I just told you that I was indeed trying to prove that point. What I was correcting you on was your false belief that I was "insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I wasn't doing that.
I would be happy to continue arguing about whether or not the… [view original content]
IMO Rebecca's pregnancy wasn't a poor plot point in itself just because Christa used to be pregnant. It could have had even specifically been created as a way to reveal new information about Christa's pregnancy. But now their chances have long gone, after episode 2 Christa is never mentioned again or even hinted at, so at this point any mention of her is going to feel like a complete asspull.
Exactly my thoughts, the least they could do is play the episode by themselves like 3 times and find out which parts look weird and in which… more parts it'd be good to discuss what happened in the past. Lee references were cool but... we had Lee in season 1, we get like 10 references about him, but we don't get any references about previous 3 episodes. Christa is my main problem honestly, I don't want to believe they just cut her completely off, because they didn't like Vanaman's idea that she's pregnant and than introduce new pregnant lady right after...
Not only that, there is nothing in this episode to indicate that futility/hopelessness is supposed to be a theme (besides the treatment of Sarah's death which might have been a valid interpretation). But nothing indicates that Clem is anything but strong and unstoppable. Clementine has been the most capable member of the group at this point, since episode 2 nothing bad has happened to her as a result of her own powerlessness, and she succeeds at everything she sets out to do. In episodes 3 and 4, she's become an unstoppable badass. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but it invalidates the themes of episode 1 and 2 that had previously been built up.
^This was the first post in our conversation that made any mention of Clem's physical capabilities. And it's from you. If this was in reply to something I said, then please identify it for me. Because for the life of me, i just can't find where I ever said anything relating her physical capabilities to the theme of futility.
Then whenever I refute them you refuse to acknowledge it.
I found what I saw to be a bigger flaw in your argument and pursued it. But I'll return to your refutation in a separate post if you'd like.
Sorry I wasn't trying to imply that the theme of futility was explored by showing Clem being unable to lift a water container.
Nobod… morey even mentioned this! The specific reason I pointed out Clem's physical capabilities was a direct rebuttal of your response that her physical capabilities as portrayed in this season are representing a theme of futility.
I just told you that I was indeed trying to prove that point. What I was correcting you on was your false belief that I was "insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I wasn't doing that.
You decided to argue that there was not a shift of focus in the themes of the season by telling me that Clem is consistently portrayed as helpless. You then pointed out examples in the story trying to prove this point. Then whenever I refute them you refuse to acknowledge it.
I would be happy to continue arguing about… [view original content]
Not only that, there is nothing in this episode to indicate that futility/hopelessness is supposed to be a theme (besides the treatment of S… morearah's death which might have been a valid interpretation). But nothing indicates that Clem is anything but strong and unstoppable. Clementine has been the most capable member of the group at this point, since episode 2 nothing bad has happened to her as a result of her own powerlessness, and she succeeds at everything she sets out to do. In episodes 3 and 4, she's become an unstoppable badass. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but it invalidates the themes of episode 1 and 2 that had previously been built up.
^This was the first post in our conversation that made any mention of Clem's physical capabilities. And it's from you. If this was in reply to something I said, then please identify it for me. Because for the life of me, i just can't find where I ever said anything relating her phys… [view original content]
The specific reason I pointed out Clem's physical capabilities was a direct rebuttal of your response that her physical capabilities as portrayed in this season are representing a theme of futility.
^Do you acknowledge then that this statement of yours is untrue and that I never made such a statement? Because if so, we can move on. And I will continue to pursue that argument of yours.
This was the first post in our conversation that made any mention of Clem's physical capabilities. And it's from you.
You chose to p… moreursue this argument and when you were proven wrong. The fact that I was the first to bring it up doesn't make you any less wrong.
I don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4. Episode 1 included a sequence in which Clementine broke out of a shed, snuck into a house undetected, stole a bunch of supplies, a stitched her own arm up, and killed a zombie in a confined space. Episode 2 had Clementine taking out several walkers by herself to save Luke on the bridge and settling a dispute between two factions. Episode 3 had her struggling to get away from a walker and being saved by Troy. Episode 4 had her being saved by Mike and being mentored by Jane most of the time, rather than taking charge herself. They even gave her an unwinnable mashing QTE with the water container.
.
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't been for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
.
If being a capable badass were enough to combat futility, it wouldn't be futility. Hopelessness if brought about when things happen that you can't help no matter how capable you are. Lee was strong and a great mediator but could do nothing when a crazy woman snapped and acted without rationality. Kenny is one of the most resilient sons of bitches in the game, but could still do nothing as his loved one were snatched away again and again. Jane was a strong capable survivor but she couldn't do anything to help her sister.
Those
are
your
words.
Just because you never say verbatim Clementine's physical capabilities as portrayed in this season are representing a consistent theme does not mean that you did not continue to argue for the same point. You were proven wrong, can we please move on?
The specific reason I pointed out Clem's physical capabilities was a direct rebuttal of your response that her physical capabilities as port… morerayed in this season are representing a theme of futility.
^Do you acknowledge then that this statement of yours is untrue and that I never made such a statement? Because if so, we can move on. And I will continue to pursue that argument of yours.
Excellent post, I agree with everything. I, for one, am extemely disappointed with season 2 and especially episode 4. All these characters died and I felt nothing. Nothing but anger towards telltale. I cared about Nick but Clem just chopped his head into pieces and barely cared afterwards. I cared about Sarah and I expected her to grow strong like Clem but no, she was just a burden we had to get rid of (and I was also amazed that the only way to save her was to repeat what Carver did). Luke was my favorite character until someone thought it was a good idea to turn the dorky nice guy into a douchebag that puts the whole group in danger to have a quickie and constantly acts like he's the leader when he's barely useful. It's sad really, I never expected season 2 to be better or even as good as season 1 but I didn't expect this mess either.
All I did was provide examples of Clem's physical limitations to show that they were consistently portrayed across the season. The only reason you think that I was implying that they were representing a consistent theme of futility is because YOU conflated having physical limitations with the feeling of futility. Which I point out as a mistake in the third quote in your post. I don't believe that physical limitations lead to feelings of futility. I never so much as suggested it. You misinterpreted my argument due to your own a priori assumptions. It happens. Just own up to it instead of repeatedly telling me that I argued for something I didn't argue for.
I don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4. Episode 1 included a sequence in which C… morelementine broke out of a shed, snuck into a house undetected, stole a bunch of supplies, a stitched her own arm up, and killed a zombie in a confined space. Episode 2 had Clementine taking out several walkers by herself to save Luke on the bridge and settling a dispute between two factions. Episode 3 had her struggling to get away from a walker and being saved by Troy. Episode 4 had her being saved by Mike and being mentored by Jane most of the time, rather than taking charge herself. They even gave her an unwinnable mashing QTE with the water container.
.
The only "badass Clem" sequence I recall in episode 3 was the end. The other time she faced zombies, she would have been dead if it hadn't been for Troy. So they did seem to showcase her physical limitations.
.
If being a cap… [view original content]
(continuing off of a stupidly long conversation on page 11)
Clem was shown to be the most suitable to perform multiple tasks, such as stealing the walkie-talkies and turning on the speakers. In these cases, Clem was not shown to have physical limitations. The fact that she was a little girl only made it easier for her to complete the task.
The fact that Clementine is shown completing tasks that are more appropriate for a small, light person does not mitigate the fact that she does have physical limitations as a small, light person. Not having legs makes it easier to do pull-ups. It still sucks not to not be able to walk. Similarly, being small and light makes it easier for Clem to be boosted up to the skylight to steal the walkie-talkie and turn on the speakers. But it still sucks that she can be easily manhandled by Troy, thrown to the ground with a slap by Carver, unable to bludgeon a zombie that's about to attack her, and unable to push a zombie off of her by herself.
Moreover, Clem's size and lightness also made it easier for her to accomplish tasks in Episodes 1 and 2 like escaping the shed and keeping her balance on the bridge. So again, the portrayal is consistent across all the episodes.
All these characters died and I felt nothing. Nothing but anger towards telltale. I cared about Nick but Clem just chopped his head into pieces and barely cared afterwards.
Exactly, we're not upset that these characters died. We're upset that they died and nobody cared.
I cared about Sarah and I expected her to grow strong like Clem but no, she was just a burden we had to get rid of (and I was also amazed that the only way to save her was to repeat what Carver did).
Yes, Telltale builds this expectation that Sarah can grow strong like Clem with all the parallels and references to Clem's season 1 persona. But just because this didn't end up happening was not what bothered me. I could have easily accepted that Telltale didn't go in the most obvious storyline with her character, but instead of giving the focus and respect that her character had previously been given, they completely butcher and contradict all prior development in her last hours. It was insulting.
(and I was also amazed that the only way to save her was to repeat what Carver did).
Yepp, it's completely distasteful and makes no sense.
Luke was my favorite character until someone thought it was a good idea to turn the dorky nice guy into a douchebag that puts the whole group in danger to have a quickie and constantly acts like he's the leader when he's barely useful.
The way I see it, Luke had been treated consistently and interestingly as a character up until episode 4 (FOR THE MOST PART).
I see his presenting himself as a leader to actually be an interesting part of this character. This has been discussed before and it's not my original idea, but fans have speculated that Luke is meant to portray the idea that you just can't be the knight in shining armor in their world. Luke has a bit of a hero complex,he wants to be at the forefront as a leader but finds it difficult to make the tough decisions. He is shown to always be pushing through his personal feelings as when Nick says he "just keeps moving", and it's obvious that he cares deeply about Nick but just doesn't really know how to deal with him, and it isn't meant to show that he's mean-spirited or intentionally dismissive, he just doesn't know how to handle it.
But episode 4 completely screws up this interpretation and all prior characterization and development. Instead Luke is shown to just not really care either way, and goes from being completely focused on "the group the group the group" to saying "I just want to survive and that means picking sides". Completely inconsistent, it isn't even shown to be a logical character progression/change.
It's not even always completely obvious or easy to explain where these inconsistencies start to occur, and that makes it harder to argue it. In some aspects of the plot or the characters' personalities, they are treated similarly in one episode or another, but then in others they are just completely inconsistent in every way. It's hard to explain but it's just so obvious and **felt ** that the writing is a result of poor communication between the writers, it's like they were only shown an outline and possibilities for these character arcs instead of choosing something specific and following through on it.
Excellent post, I agree with everything. I, for one, am extemely disappointed with season 2 and especially episode 4. All these characters d… moreied and I felt nothing. Nothing but anger towards telltale. I cared about Nick but Clem just chopped his head into pieces and barely cared afterwards. I cared about Sarah and I expected her to grow strong like Clem but no, she was just a burden we had to get rid of (and I was also amazed that the only way to save her was to repeat what Carver did). Luke was my favorite character until someone thought it was a good idea to turn the dorky nice guy into a douchebag that puts the whole group in danger to have a quickie and constantly acts like he's the leader when he's barely useful. It's sad really, I never expected season 2 to be better or even as good as season 1 but I didn't expect this mess either.
Ehh, like I said before, I personally don't really feel like their lack of focus is a result of having too many projects at once. I mean, TWAU turned out pretty great. & don't they have separate teams for each project?
Quite frankly, it feels like TWD2 is unfocused because TTG themselves are unfocused. They simply had a lot of things do to at once. I'm pret… morety sure EP5 would fine because there TWAU is finished, and the other planned series haven't been given release dates yet (and when they are, I doubt it would by August).
I also want to add, in a separate post, it's not like Telltale hasn't gone through this before. They had a couple of "blah" series. I suspect they have hit another rough patch and they will learn from this, like the last time.
For what it's worth keep this thread alive until episode 5 gets released. Telltale needs to know that they fucked up, they won't see it in r… moreeviews (even IGN that gave them 6/10 didn't actually point out correctly what was wrong, as usual their reviews seem like attentionwhoring).
I'm pretty sure that at least someone from Telltale is watching this forum and if they'll see the support this thread has, he'll pass it to the rest of the crew. It's time to improve, we'll probly have 1 year, 2 years break before season 3 (if it comes), so they can have a lot to think about, but I'd be glad if I saw improvements in finale of season 2 already.
If you are honestly saying that this whole thing has just been a misunderstanding then I am glad to accept that & i'm sorry it wasn't more clear on both our ends.
All I did was provide examples of Clem's physical limitations to show that they were consistently portrayed across the season. The only reas… moreon you think that I was implying that they were representing a consistent theme of futility is because YOU conflated having physical limitations with the feeling of futility. Which I point out as a mistake in the third quote in your post. I don't believe that physical limitations lead to feelings of futility. I never so much as suggested it. You misinterpreted my argument due to your own a priori assumptions. It happens. Just own up to it instead of repeatedly telling me that I argued for something I didn't argue for.
I don't disagree with this, those are completely valid points on their own.
I pointed out the above quote in an attempt to refute what I interpreted as your argument.
Are we going to talk about how this relates to consistent themes/characterization compared to the rest of the episodes? I don't see how this is continuing to be an argument right now... ?
(continuing off of a stupidly long conversation on page 11)
Clem was shown to be the most suitable to perform multiple tasks, such as … morestealing the walkie-talkies and turning on the speakers. In these cases, Clem was not shown to have physical limitations. The fact that she was a little girl only made it easier for her to complete the task.
The fact that Clementine is shown completing tasks that are more appropriate for a small, light person does not mitigate the fact that she does have physical limitations as a small, light person. Not having legs makes it easier to do pull-ups. It still sucks not to not be able to walk. Similarly, being small and light makes it easier for Clem to be boosted up to the skylight to steal the walkie-talkie and turn on the speakers. But it still sucks that she can be easily manhandled by Troy, thrown to the ground with a slap by Carver, unable to bludgeon a zombie that's about to attack her, and una… [view original content]
I already agreed with TT247, but I wanted to add something. I really respect Telltale and I wish them all the best, they are like some kind of friend to me. And when you care about someone, when you see your good friend doing something stupid, you try to knock some sense into him or her, just like Lee did with Kenny on the train in s1 e3. That's why this thread is so important and they should see it. Sometimes it hurts, but it needs to be done.
Heh. Well, considering that we've been going at this for the better half of a day, I'd say that's not necessarily such a bad thing.
To bring it back to the original point, though, what I was trying to argue was that hopelessness and futility have been explored in the Season to some extent and that this latest episode can be seen as a continuation of that. Sarita's death, Sarah's refusal to deal with reality, Kenny asking why Carver couldn't have killed him, Jane talking about there being people you just can't protect, Clem having the option to abandon Sarah twice--they all serve to explore different aspects of losing hope and giving up. But after all this tragedy, the episode is punctuated by a miraculous bit of hope: a new life being introduced into a world that had previously only contained death. And that's meaningful to me. That's why I like the episode.
I don't disagree with this, those are completely valid points on their own.
I pointed out the above quote in an attempt to refute what I … moreinterpreted as your argument.
Are we going to talk about how this relates to consistent themes/characterization compared to the rest of the episodes? I don't see how this is continuing to be an argument right now... ?
Thinking about all of this some more, I realized something about my own views concerning an ZA or just A event.
I am a group guy in these sort of things, It might be valid under some circumstances that you are able to survive better on your own, but I do not see survival in and of itsself as meaningfull. Fictional numbers: Id rather go for the 40% shot to rebuild a functional community then for a 70% chance to be the last one standing.
That being said, the narrative in this season as it is; being dragged from event to event to event with no reflection in between and no real communication in the group, has got me thinking that I would actually prefer Clem to leave everyone here behind and find a more stable group. Running around like the stereotype lemmings is a good description if this crew so far.
What I can't figure out for myself yet is if this dysfunctionality is intentional writing on telltales part or that the lack of connection with the characters due too the all the things discussed here, makes bad situations seem even worse and therefore feels as dysfunctional
Comments
Just because there was one situation in which Clem would have been dead if not for someone's intervention does not demonstrate that Telltale is attempting to focus on Clem's futility and helplessness.
You are insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation. But these sequences are just a part of gameplay.
Clem was shown to be the most suitable to perform multiple tasks, such as stealing the walkie-talkies and turning on the speakers. In these cases, Clem was not shown to have physical limitations. The fact that she was a little girl only made it easier for her to complete the task.
If Telltale was trying to present Clem as having physical limitations that enhance the futility of the situation we shouldn't have to be sitting here in a complete standstill arguing over it.
I was pointing out that adults depending on her to solve their problems contradicts her depiction as being helpless and alone.
You said just about all of it. The season is lame. It's sad, because it had so much potential. I am only playing it because I bought all five episodes when episode 1 came out. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.
see the conversation on page 2 between DomeWing333 and I. s/he had the same view on Sarah that you do and we had a long conversation about it.
again, refer to the conversation on page 2 between me and DomeWing333. I explain my answer to this viewpoint there.
Look, all I'm saying is, I'm agreeing you that they could treated the situation better. I can't dispute that. But I'm not too sure that your claims they had treated with respect, nuance, or subtlety is true in the first place, but rather, it's something I'm not even sure they did. If they did treat her that way, she wouldn't have died the ways she did in first place.
But I can see that's your last piece on that, I'll go read a couple of pages back.
Thank you, I would like to answer whatever you have to say in reply to the conversation.
Just his posts, and I agree with much of what he said, though I don't feel quite as strongly as he does...not to mention my emphasis is quite different.
For one thing, you seem to think they originally treated Sarah with respect, nuance, and subtlety, but I have doubts they even did that in the first place. If you ask me, I would suspect TTG didn't even even write Sarah in subtle or nuanced manner.
look at page 2, I explain how Sarah was treated with respect & nuance. Her character was never portrayed as one-dimensional or hopeless until episode 4.
I...never said that? You were the one who brought Clem's physical capabilities into the futility discussion. I only responded to your claim because I disagreed that Clem being physically capable was something new or that it hampers the feeling of futility.
If being a capable badass were enough to combat futility, it wouldn't be futility. Hopelessness if brought about when things happen that you can't help no matter how capable you are. Lee was strong and a great mediator but could do nothing when a crazy woman snapped and acted without rationality. Kenny is one of the most resilient sons of bitches in the game, but could still do nothing as his loved one were snatched away again and again. Jane was a strong capable survivor but she couldn't do anything to help her sister.
Those are situations that breed futility. It's not when Clem isn't able to kill a zombie. It's when Clem is able to kill a zombie but everybody dies anyway.
Considering "out of kayfabe" issues, I think this has to do with the fact they are dealing with more than one game at a time. It used to be Telltale would work on one game completely while a second game is in the background after the next game completes. If you look at the timing, The Wolf Among us started first, and if it weren't for Telltale doing TWD Season 2, I think Telltale would have finished TWAU by late Spring, at worst.
Additionally, working on several games at once means they have limit on how much time they spend on each game. That means limiting little details and what not.
I'm not condoning what they are doing. It's simply what the situation is, even it's not what the situation should be. Either Telltale goes back to one game at a time, or they grow bigger. They can't remain as small as they are and pump out more than one game without sacrificing some quality.
You said
I replied
You replied
I refute this by saying
This is me refuting your point that Clem's actions in episodes 3 and 4 do in fact "hamper the feeling of futility".
Her being shown to have an easier time at things specifically because she is a little girl does not in any way contribute to a theme of futility or helplessness on account of being a little girl.
I brought her physical capabilities into the discussion to prove that they invalidated the theme of helplessness.
You tried to prove me wrong by saying that she is in fact shown to be helpless throughout the following episodes. You said
You can't defend a point for the sake of prove me wrong and then change your mind when the argument is lost.
This has been touched on earlier in the thread. I honestly don't feel like this should be a huge part of the problem.
Doesn't each game have separate dev teams? Even if they don't, TWAU had longer wait times and changes to the plot, but continued to deliver a satisfying and coherent narrative in spite of this.
Compare that to TWDG s2, which has episodes that stand well on their own but as a season does not make consistent narrative/thematic sense.
If they put in the effort, Telltale can make a cohesive and successful story, but in the case of TWDG, they haven't.
Okay let's break your central claim down into two parts:
The third quote you provided (the one beginning with "Well I still got some fight left in me") was my counterpoint against the first part of your claim. I did not address the second part, because if the first part is shown to be untrue, then the second part becomes irrelevant.
And nowhere did I make the positive claim that "Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I only stated that instances exist in every episode in which Clem is shown to have physical limitations. I did not comment on the relevance of these instances to the feeling of futility. That's the confusion I was trying to point out.
(My post prior to that in which I said that there was no invalidation was based on a misinterpretation of your entire claim. And so if that's where you're getting confused, just wipe it from memory.)
It is only in the my post before this one that I addressed the second part of your claim, pointing out that regardless of whether or not there exist differences in demonstrations of Clementine's physical capabilities between episodes 1 and 2 and episodes 3 and 4, they do not affect the feeling of futility.
I hope that's wasn't too confusing. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.
Exactly my thoughts, the least they could do is play the episode by themselves like 3 times and find out which parts look weird and in which parts it'd be good to discuss what happened in the past. Lee references were cool but... we had Lee in season 1, we get like 10 references about him, but we don't get any references about previous 3 episodes. Christa is my main problem honestly, I don't want to believe they just cut her completely off, because they didn't like Vanaman's idea that she's pregnant and than introduce new pregnant lady right after...
I didn't have problem with vast majority of characters.
Even though people are raging about what Kenny did and what Luke did, it's explainable, because the emotions ran really high. Though his reaction to Nick could have been better.
The problem I have is definitily Sarita, that was put there just to expand Kenny's character, the same deal was with Katjaa and Duck, but those two you could at least get to know through optional conversations and they played their role in the story multiple times. Walter and Matthew died too soon, they were 100% kind people, which is rare in apocalypse and it'd be interesting to watch their reaction to dangerous situations.
The problem is episodes do not connect by any means except they continue in locations u're situated in. That's a huge problem and unfortunately Telltale won't realise that if they'll focus only on the good things they did in episode 4 (there were good things, sheeple are just splitting to two fractions as usual ; I hate Kenny - Kenny is flawless ; I hate episode 4 - episode 4 is flawless etc. I'm guessing like max 10% fans are discussing both angles of these things)
I will play season 3, since it's still gonna be better than 99% of games that will come out the same year, but I'd be glad if I thought of it as a masterpiece as I did in season 1 (though it wasn't perfect, but it was Telltale first big hit so it was understandable) and not as just a good or great game.
TWAU story and plots were much much better and I hope the main writer of that would move to TWD in case these 2 games wouldn't come out at the same time again.
So your answer to my saying "we have to agree to disagree", is "No, I still have fight left in me". Fair enough.
But you did address the second part. You asserted that themes of futility ARE addressed in the plot.
Proof:
.
You try to prove your belief that you "don't think there was that big of a shift in focus between Episodes 1 and 2 and Episodes 3 and 4" by telling me that I'm wrong about Clem being portrayed as helpless. Then when you are proven wrong on this point, you say you were never trying to prove it in the first place.
And while we're at it let's not oversimplify this by saying that episodes 1 & 2 were completely coherent and that I only have a problem with episodes 3 & 4. Yes, they were more consistent than 3 and 4, but there were still mistakes which I have already pointed out in multiple posts.
For what it's worth keep this thread alive until episode 5 gets released. Telltale needs to know that they fucked up, they won't see it in reviews (even IGN that gave them 6/10 didn't actually point out correctly what was wrong, as usual their reviews seem like attentionwhoring).
I'm pretty sure that at least someone from Telltale is watching this forum and if they'll see the support this thread has, he'll pass it to the rest of the crew. It's time to improve, we'll probly have 1 year, 2 years break before season 3 (if it comes), so they can have a lot to think about, but I'd be glad if I saw improvements in finale of season 2 already.
I feel like I have to point this out.
I wrote the original post from a very emotion-driven place, and it gives you the idea that i just hate hate hate Season 2 and everything about it. I didn't bother emphasizing any of the positive qualities to Season 2 because it would have made the post even longer and look at all the tl;dr's I already got.
I'm not backtracking anything I've said here; I completely stand by the points I've been making. I am only trying to clarify.
Each episode ON ITS OWN is fairly successful and entertaining. The problem I have with this season is that plot points, characters, and themes are completely underutilized and inconsistent. And in relation to each other, the episodes have made less and less narrative sense as the season continues.
The episodes themselves do not carry any overarching themes from one to the next. Instead, each episode in itself briefly touches on something interesting but abandons it in consequent episodes.
The choices make no difference in the plot, and we are often not even offered the illusion that anything makes a difference. They are not shown to make a difference in any way- not plot variation, not character development, and not even superficial changes. The most we usually get is an extra line or two, and sometimes not even that such as when stealing from Arvo results in exactly identical dialogue. Consequently these choices mean nothing to the plot and are wasted.
Determinant characters hover in the background with minimal participation and are then killed off before they can do anything further, often for no purpose to the story. Characters that had previously been developed and nuanced are suddenly portrayed as one dimensional or OOC in what appears to be a forced attempt to make you feel a certain way about them instead of letting you make up your own mind.
Episode 1 started out pretty strong. It wasn't perfect, but there was plenty of room for potential. Then in episode 2, things are a little shaky on some points but it's still ok because there was still plenty of good things about the episode and there was plenty of hope that future episodes could be even better.
Episode 3 is where it really starts to go downhill. Episode 4 is where the whole thing completely collapses, and nearly all prior development is dumped. Read more up in the original post if you want details.
I have no doubt that this season was built with the intention and foundation to be amazing. And that is why I am having such a strong reaction to how it actually turned out.
edit: added to the original post.
shrugs Your loss. If anything, if they were soley focused on doing TWD, you know they would have likely done a better in doing character development with Sarah.
Quite frankly, it feels like TWD2 is unfocused because TTG themselves are unfocused. They simply had a lot of things do to at once. I'm pretty sure EP5 would fine because there TWAU is finished, and the other planned series haven't been given release dates yet (and when they are, I doubt it would by August).
lol Oh I see. Sorry I wasn't trying to imply that the theme of futility was explored by showing Clem being unable to lift a water container. That would be...silly. I only brought that up because it was a very concrete example of her being shown to have physical limitations. And a pretty mundane one at that.
I just told you that I was indeed trying to prove that point. What I was correcting you on was your false belief that I was "insisting that Clem's physical limitations are meant to present a focus on the futility of their situation." I wasn't doing that.
I would be happy to continue arguing about whether or not there was a shift in how Clem's physical capabilities were portrayed. I just don't think the answer to that has any relevance in regards to the theme of futility in the season.
I also want to add, in a separate post, it's not like Telltale hasn't gone through this before. They had a couple of "blah" series. I suspect they have hit another rough patch and they will learn from this, like the last time.
Nobody even mentioned this! The specific reason I pointed out Clem's physical capabilities was a direct rebuttal of your response that her physical capabilities as portrayed in this season are representing a theme of futility.
You decided to argue that there was not a shift of focus in the themes of the season by telling me that Clem is consistently portrayed as helpless. You then pointed out examples in the story trying to prove this point. Then whenever I refute them you refuse to acknowledge it.
If we're going to go there, please start a new response to it in this thread. Looking at this is giving me a headache.
IMO Rebecca's pregnancy wasn't a poor plot point in itself just because Christa used to be pregnant. It could have had even specifically been created as a way to reveal new information about Christa's pregnancy. But now their chances have long gone, after episode 2 Christa is never mentioned again or even hinted at, so at this point any mention of her is going to feel like a complete asspull.
^This was the first post in our conversation that made any mention of Clem's physical capabilities. And it's from you. If this was in reply to something I said, then please identify it for me. Because for the life of me, i just can't find where I ever said anything relating her physical capabilities to the theme of futility.
I found what I saw to be a bigger flaw in your argument and pursued it. But I'll return to your refutation in a separate post if you'd like.
You chose to pursue this argument and when you were proven wrong. The fact that I was the first to bring it up doesn't make you any less wrong.
^Do you acknowledge then that this statement of yours is untrue and that I never made such a statement? Because if so, we can move on. And I will continue to pursue that argument of yours.
.
.
Those
are
your
words.
Just because you never say verbatim Clementine's physical capabilities as portrayed in this season are representing a consistent theme does not mean that you did not continue to argue for the same point. You were proven wrong, can we please move on?
Excellent post, I agree with everything. I, for one, am extemely disappointed with season 2 and especially episode 4. All these characters died and I felt nothing. Nothing but anger towards telltale. I cared about Nick but Clem just chopped his head into pieces and barely cared afterwards. I cared about Sarah and I expected her to grow strong like Clem but no, she was just a burden we had to get rid of (and I was also amazed that the only way to save her was to repeat what Carver did). Luke was my favorite character until someone thought it was a good idea to turn the dorky nice guy into a douchebag that puts the whole group in danger to have a quickie and constantly acts like he's the leader when he's barely useful. It's sad really, I never expected season 2 to be better or even as good as season 1 but I didn't expect this mess either.
All I did was provide examples of Clem's physical limitations to show that they were consistently portrayed across the season. The only reason you think that I was implying that they were representing a consistent theme of futility is because YOU conflated having physical limitations with the feeling of futility. Which I point out as a mistake in the third quote in your post. I don't believe that physical limitations lead to feelings of futility. I never so much as suggested it. You misinterpreted my argument due to your own a priori assumptions. It happens. Just own up to it instead of repeatedly telling me that I argued for something I didn't argue for.
(continuing off of a stupidly long conversation on page 11)
The fact that Clementine is shown completing tasks that are more appropriate for a small, light person does not mitigate the fact that she does have physical limitations as a small, light person. Not having legs makes it easier to do pull-ups. It still sucks not to not be able to walk. Similarly, being small and light makes it easier for Clem to be boosted up to the skylight to steal the walkie-talkie and turn on the speakers. But it still sucks that she can be easily manhandled by Troy, thrown to the ground with a slap by Carver, unable to bludgeon a zombie that's about to attack her, and unable to push a zombie off of her by herself.
Moreover, Clem's size and lightness also made it easier for her to accomplish tasks in Episodes 1 and 2 like escaping the shed and keeping her balance on the bridge. So again, the portrayal is consistent across all the episodes.
Exactly, we're not upset that these characters died. We're upset that they died and nobody cared.
Yes, Telltale builds this expectation that Sarah can grow strong like Clem with all the parallels and references to Clem's season 1 persona. But just because this didn't end up happening was not what bothered me. I could have easily accepted that Telltale didn't go in the most obvious storyline with her character, but instead of giving the focus and respect that her character had previously been given, they completely butcher and contradict all prior development in her last hours. It was insulting.
Yepp, it's completely distasteful and makes no sense.
The way I see it, Luke had been treated consistently and interestingly as a character up until episode 4 (FOR THE MOST PART).
I see his presenting himself as a leader to actually be an interesting part of this character. This has been discussed before and it's not my original idea, but fans have speculated that Luke is meant to portray the idea that you just can't be the knight in shining armor in their world. Luke has a bit of a hero complex,he wants to be at the forefront as a leader but finds it difficult to make the tough decisions. He is shown to always be pushing through his personal feelings as when Nick says he "just keeps moving", and it's obvious that he cares deeply about Nick but just doesn't really know how to deal with him, and it isn't meant to show that he's mean-spirited or intentionally dismissive, he just doesn't know how to handle it.
But episode 4 completely screws up this interpretation and all prior characterization and development. Instead Luke is shown to just not really care either way, and goes from being completely focused on "the group the group the group" to saying "I just want to survive and that means picking sides". Completely inconsistent, it isn't even shown to be a logical character progression/change.
It's not even always completely obvious or easy to explain where these inconsistencies start to occur, and that makes it harder to argue it. In some aspects of the plot or the characters' personalities, they are treated similarly in one episode or another, but then in others they are just completely inconsistent in every way. It's hard to explain but it's just so obvious and **felt ** that the writing is a result of poor communication between the writers, it's like they were only shown an outline and possibilities for these character arcs instead of choosing something specific and following through on it.
Ehh, like I said before, I personally don't really feel like their lack of focus is a result of having too many projects at once. I mean, TWAU turned out pretty great. & don't they have separate teams for each project?
Well I hope that they will at least learn from this then. I wasn't around back then, tho, so I can't really speak to it
Yeah I really hope that Telltale sees this.
Maybe they've been getting such good reviews because each episode is being judged on its own and not in relation to the rest of s2? who knows
If you are honestly saying that this whole thing has just been a misunderstanding then I am glad to accept that & i'm sorry it wasn't more clear on both our ends.
I don't disagree with this, those are completely valid points on their own.
I pointed out the above quote in an attempt to refute what I interpreted as your argument.
Are we going to talk about how this relates to consistent themes/characterization compared to the rest of the episodes? I don't see how this is continuing to be an argument right now... ?
I already agreed with TT247, but I wanted to add something. I really respect Telltale and I wish them all the best, they are like some kind of friend to me. And when you care about someone, when you see your good friend doing something stupid, you try to knock some sense into him or her, just like Lee did with Kenny on the train in s1 e3. That's why this thread is so important and they should see it. Sometimes it hurts, but it needs to be done.
Heh. Well, considering that we've been going at this for the better half of a day, I'd say that's not necessarily such a bad thing.
To bring it back to the original point, though, what I was trying to argue was that hopelessness and futility have been explored in the Season to some extent and that this latest episode can be seen as a continuation of that. Sarita's death, Sarah's refusal to deal with reality, Kenny asking why Carver couldn't have killed him, Jane talking about there being people you just can't protect, Clem having the option to abandon Sarah twice--they all serve to explore different aspects of losing hope and giving up. But after all this tragedy, the episode is punctuated by a miraculous bit of hope: a new life being introduced into a world that had previously only contained death. And that's meaningful to me. That's why I like the episode.
Thinking about all of this some more, I realized something about my own views concerning an ZA or just A event.
I am a group guy in these sort of things, It might be valid under some circumstances that you are able to survive better on your own, but I do not see survival in and of itsself as meaningfull. Fictional numbers: Id rather go for the 40% shot to rebuild a functional community then for a 70% chance to be the last one standing.
That being said, the narrative in this season as it is; being dragged from event to event to event with no reflection in between and no real communication in the group, has got me thinking that I would actually prefer Clem to leave everyone here behind and find a more stable group. Running around like the stereotype lemmings is a good description if this crew so far.
What I can't figure out for myself yet is if this dysfunctionality is intentional writing on telltales part or that the lack of connection with the characters due too the all the things discussed here, makes bad situations seem even worse and therefore feels as dysfunctional