I agree with you 100%.
Telltale has wasted our time and money there is so much speculation and amazing ideas just on the forum, a lot of these speculations and ideas are a lot better then the story itself. A lot of people will disagree, but I'm not saying I'm going to stop playing the game cause' we all know that would be a lie. I wish season 2 was more like season 1, the main difference from season 1 and 2 is that season 1 was emotionally driven while season 2 is plot-driven. We all loved the walking dead because it was like nothing before, the characters were real and had they're faults, it was about survival and teamwork. Meanwhile season 2 consists of overly dramatized situations, cliff-hangers, contradiction, and the mere fact that as fans of the walking dead we will cling to the idea that the story will get better. I feel that they have presented the characters badly, made Clementine do everything and instead of making the beautiful and heartbreaking emotionally moving story we expected they gave us shit. So as fans we have the right to be pissed. But mainly I'm just disappointed, these characters really aren't real this season because of telltales sloppy writing, and need to kill off characters for shock value. But what telltale doesn't realize is that shock value is gone, in fact if anything going this route is predictable. Still here we are waiting for a connection that will never come. I hope telltale reads this and makes the effort to fill plot holes and make the simple fixes that could change everything and make the game a thousand times better.
You're probably right. But that doesn't mean that this season's writing can be excused for not treating events/themes/characters with the gravity they deserved.
You know what? I was already suspecting that, but it was confirmed yesterday: Season 2 is just a bridge for something bigger on Season 3.
… more I don't know what will happen on Episode 5 and the DLC, but I know that it'll set up something huge for the sequel.
I agree with you 100%.
Telltale has wasted our time and money there is so much speculation and amazing ideas just on the forum, a lot of th… moreese speculations and ideas are a lot better then the story itself. A lot of people will disagree, but I'm not saying I'm going to stop playing the game cause' we all know that would be a lie. I wish season 2 was more like season 1, the main difference from season 1 and 2 is that season 1 was emotionally driven while season 2 is plot-driven. We all loved the walking dead because it was like nothing before, the characters were real and had they're faults, it was about survival and teamwork. Meanwhile season 2 consists of overly dramatized situations, cliff-hangers, contradiction, and the mere fact that as fans of the walking dead we will cling to the idea that the story will get better. I feel that they have presented the characters badly, made Clementine do everything and instead of making the beautiful an… [view original content]
But Nick didn't take a bullet in episode 3. He was only shown to have been shot at the very beginning of episode 4.
& just because "it makes sense" doesn't excuse it from being unsatisfying. Carlos's absence was never even addressed or shown to be part of the reason Nick died.
Nick's Death did not bother me as much as Sarah's . The way I looked at Nick is his death was on screen , as soon as he got hit with that bu… morellet from a semi automatic military stile Rifle and No Carlos to patch him up He was as good as dead . Jane hit home the point the plan did not fail people panicked and poorly executed it. When Nick took that bullet at the end of ep 3 I knew he was dead , I just didn't know how we would find him or if we would even find him at all.
I think perhaps Season 2 has too many characters in the canon to be as complex and multi-faceted as those in the first one. The new group is simply nowhere near as interesting as the first band of survivors Clementine travelled with and Carver, a character who could have driven the story over much more bigger arc, was prematurely killed off. It's also difficult to muster the same emotion for characters that die: there's nothing thus far (bar Omid's death) that has been remotely anywhere near as shocking as Katjaa or Duck or Carley or Doug. In my opinion anyway. In fact, I felt more sad about the dog Clementine was forced to put down than I did when many of the supporting cast were offed.
This point keeps getting lost so I'm going to try to put it as clearly as possible here.
I am not saying that every single thing is this season is a complete and nonsensical failure. My opinion is that the potential and foundation is in fact well-established but it has failed to follow through.
I'm going to use the specific example of "themes in S2".
You could interpret that:
Episode 1= the question about trusting groups, establishing that Clem is "just a little girl"
Episode 2= strength lies in the group, are you loyal?
Episode 3= strong vs weak, do you have to lose your morals in order to survive?
Episode 4= the group is fracturing, is it better to stay or leave?
Now for my main point: each of these themes if you look hard, can be interpreted as being present in the episodes. But the connection between them is not developed. And because of this, in some cases it's hard to even point out that there is a focused theme in any episodes at all. As a result the themes only appear weaker and weaker as the season goes on because the foundation has been built but is not followed through.
Here's some specific examples:
Episode 2 nullifies the theme in episode 1 of trust when the cabin crew suddenly all like and depend on Clementine for no reason. We are not shown this development, or how anyone changed their mind about her, so the theme is invalidated and wasted.
When the group depends on Clem to do everything in episodes 2 and 3, the previous theme that Clem is "just" a little girl is erased. In episode 1, when she got things done (such as sewing up her arm), it was treated in such a way that pointed out "she is just a little girl, but she's tough." The purpose to this was to show that Clem had development since the time skip, so it made sense. The fact that she was "just a little girl" was not yet invalidated because some things continued to be a struggle, but her growth allowed her to overcome it.
But then in episode 2, Clem is shown to be not only capable, but even DEPENDED on to do things for the adults. In itself this would not have been too huge of a mistake since it seemed to only be a case of "Clem is the PC so she has to do lots of things." The fanbase pointed out this mistake, but instead of fixing the issue, episode 3 only made it worse when Clementine continued to be depended on, not only because of her role as the PC but sometimes specifically BECAUSE she was a little girl (you're the only one who can fit through etc).
There is nothing shown to emphasize that this was supposed to be logical character development. It simply "happens", and the narrative does nothing to justify it.
In itself, the progression/change in theme is not "bad", but there is no buildup to indicate that this is supposed to be a conscious change or development to the theme/character. As a result, it's just sloppy writing.
Here's another example.
The theme of "strength in numbers" that was touched on in episode 2 is skewed by Carver's view that "the strong stand together, and get rid of the weak parts."
In itself, this is not bad. It could have even been an interesting counterpoint to episode 2's point that it might be good to stick in a group and pull together.
But the only time Carver is actually shown to hold this view is when he gives the speech stating that they have to pull together as a group. Everything else he does shows a complete lack of subtlety or moral code, and it's all about "this guy is evil, now hate him!" He is no longer shown to have a twisted moral code or a point that might be valid, instead he just goes around beating and killing everybody.
The issue is no longer treated with any development or subtlety, so as a result, the point is lost.
The foundation for these themes/developments is there, but they're not followed through or developed further. As a result, the entire season feels wasted and unsatisfying.
edit: adding this to the original post to make my point more clear w/ examples.
I think perhaps Season 2 has too many characters in the canon to be as complex and multi-faceted as those in the first one. The new group is simply nowhere near as interesting as the first band of survivors Clementine travelled with...
Ehh, idk. Personally I felt a bigger connection to the characters in s2 than in season 1. They just end up falling flat because they had so much potential & it was never followed thru.
I think perhaps Season 2 has too many characters in the canon to be as complex and multi-faceted as those in the first one. The new group is… more simply nowhere near as interesting as the first band of survivors Clementine travelled with and Carver, a character who could have driven the story over much more bigger arc, was prematurely killed off. It's also difficult to muster the same emotion for characters that die: there's nothing thus far (bar Omid's death) that has been remotely anywhere near as shocking as Katjaa or Duck or Carley or Doug. In my opinion anyway. In fact, I felt more sad about the dog Clementine was forced to put down than I did when many of the supporting cast were offed.
A lot of people like myself loved the episode, if they came in here to acknowledged your complaints that's something, but it would be stupid… more to say that they messed up on the episode, because a few people are complaining that it didn't meet their expectations.
There is NOTHING to indicate that Sarah WANTED to die!
The entire trailer sequence was Sarah relegating herself to die. All she says is "I can't" "I can't" "I can't." Clem can later ask Sarah if she wanted Clem to leave her, to which she replies "I just want my dad," indicating that she has no inclination to survive by herself. Whether or not she actually wanted to die, it's clear that she had resigned herself to death in the trailer, the same way Jane's sister resigned herself to death on the rooftop. Would either girl have outright committed suicide by themselves? Probably not. But when presented a choice to struggle to live or lay down and die, they chose the latter. It's what the conversation with Kenny was about. He wasn't going to commit suicide himself, but he asked why Carver couldn't have just killed him because it would have given him an out rather than having to face another day of punishment.
Claiming that Sarah had no regard for her own safety, and therefore no regard for the group, is a completely unfair viewpoint that proclaims it was SELFISH of Sarah to shut down.
Having no regard for the safety of others because your condition makes you unable to have regard for the safety of others is still having no regard for the safety of others. Jane was pointing out the reality of the situation. She wasn't accusing Sarah of selfishness or saying that it was her fault. Drug addiction makes people obsessed with the drug and prioritize obtaining it above the person's livelihood, their morals, and other people's well-being. It's not their fault, but that doesn't make the actions that they do any less harmful to the people around them.
IT IS NOT ... A "BURDEN" FOR A PERSON TO HAVE A COMPLICATED MENTAL CONDITION.
What? Of course it's a burden for a person to have a complicated mental condition. It's a burden that takes its toll not only on the person, but also their loved ones and everyone around them. Good people will carry that burden out of care for the person and sympathy for their plight, but it's simply false to say that it's not a burden, especially in a world that unforgiving.
While Clem can help Sarah to a small extent (often by reassuring her that her dad will be back to take care of her), it's shown not to be en… moreough. During the berry-picking sequence, Clem can try to console Sarah and get her to gather herself, but she still ends up not being able to focus on her surroundings and failing to complete a very simple task. Clem has to come over and do her job for her. This is echoed by Clem being able to talk Sarah into responding and putting on her glasses in the trailer, but not being able to bring Sarah to the point where can stand up and escape. She needs to physically go over, slap Sarah, and pick her up off the ground. Clem is a good friend, but she's not enough to pull Sarah back when she's really lost.
The only theme that leaving Sarah reveals is purported to be this idea that you can't save everyone, there was no choice, Sarah wanted to die, etc.
Over and over the only one who can suggest they sh… [view original content]
The entire trailer sequence was Sarah relegating herself to die. All she says is "I can't" "I can't" "I can't." Clem can later ask Sarah if she wanted Clem to leave her, to which she replies "I just want my dad," indicating that she has no inclination to survive by herself.
The fact that she cannot survive by herself in her current state is not the same as having an explicit death wish.
Having no regard for the safety of others because your condition makes you unable to have regard for the safety of others is still having no regard for the safety of others.
And now you're just victim-blaming. Not cool.
What? Of course it's a burden for a person to have a complicated mental condition.
You are WAYYYY oversimplifying here. You edited out the part where I said that it's not SELFISH of a person to have a condition that they are BORN with.
Having a complicated mental condition makes life difficult for the person with that condition. But it does not reduce them to being nothing more than a "burden" on themselves or others.
There is NOTHING to indicate that Sarah WANTED to die!
The entire trailer sequence was Sarah relegating herself to die. All she says… more is "I can't" "I can't" "I can't." Clem can later ask Sarah if she wanted Clem to leave her, to which she replies "I just want my dad," indicating that she has no inclination to survive by herself. Whether or not she actually wanted to die, it's clear that she had resigned herself to death in the trailer, the same way Jane's sister resigned herself to death on the rooftop. Would either girl have outright committed suicide by themselves? Probably not. But when presented a choice to struggle to live or lay down and die, they chose the latter. It's what the conversation with Kenny was about. He wasn't going to commit suicide himself, but he asked why Carver couldn't have just killed him because it would have given him an out rather than having to face another day of punishment.
Claiming that Sarah had … [view original content]
When a person refuses to be led away from death, they have given up on trying to live.
No, victim-blaming would mean that I think it's the victims fault. I don't, as I have explicitly stated many, many times already. But if someone has a condition that makes being around them dangerous, that's something that needs to be acknowledged.
Having a complicated mental condition also makes life difficult for the people who need to care for the person with that condition. And depending on the severity of the condition and the situation, that does make them a burden. In Sarah's case, her inability to simply stand up and crawl to the safety that was provided to her by the group was putting all of their lives at risk. It's not her fault she's a burden, but she's still a burden.
The entire trailer sequence was Sarah relegating herself to die. All she says is "I can't" "I can't" "I can't." Clem can later ask Sarah if … moreshe wanted Clem to leave her, to which she replies "I just want my dad," indicating that she has no inclination to survive by herself.
The fact that she cannot survive by herself in her current state is not the same as having an explicit death wish.
Having no regard for the safety of others because your condition makes you unable to have regard for the safety of others is still having no regard for the safety of others.
And now you're just victim-blaming. Not cool.
What? Of course it's a burden for a person to have a complicated mental condition.
You are WAYYYY oversimplifying here. You edited out the part where I said that it's not SELFISH of a person to have a condition that they are BORN with.
Having a complicated mental condition makes life difficult for the pers… [view original content]
When a person refuses to be led away from death they have given up on trying to live.
Sarah was not purposely trying to die. She did not refuse to be led away from death, she was unable to. She was portrayed as being unable to move as a result of being in a panic attack. Never is it outright stated that she wants to die.
depending on the severity of the condition and the situation, that does make them a burden.
This is a very offensive point of view. You cannot excuse a storyline that forces the view that a person who happens to have a psychological condition is worthless and nothing more than a burden to themselves or the people around them. That's disgusting.
The fact that TTG chose to prove people who think like you right only makes it more offensive.
When a person refuses to be led away from death, they have given up on trying to live.
No, victim-blaming would mean that I think it's th… moree victims fault. I don't, as I have explicitly stated many, many times already. But if someone has a condition that makes being around them dangerous, that's something that needs to be acknowledged.
Having a complicated mental condition also makes life difficult for the people who need to care for the person with that condition. And depending on the severity of the condition and the situation, that does make them a burden. In Sarah's case, her inability to simply stand up and crawl to the safety that was provided to her by the group was putting all of their lives at risk. It's not her fault she's a burden, but she's still a burden.
Ok, I have to admit I did cry when Omid died, I shed a tear at the shed scene in episode 2 & when Alvin died in episode 3... but in episode 4??? Like I just edited in my first comment, tears of anger don't count lol.
Carlos made me cry.
Seeing Nick, like that, made me shed a tear.
Rebecca, i cried a little.
The game may have many problems, but i … morelove it. I agree with you on some things, though. Can you believe it took two writers to write 204? I loved the episode but the writing was fucking shit.
There is still MORE variation. I didn't say there was a lot, but most definitely MORE. TT is moving in the right direction with adding MORE choices that matter, but not as many as I personally,and most likely, we generally would like.
But there are no major story changing consequences. S2 does not even barely give the illusion of it. Most of the choices barely have an impa… morect at all.
Save Christa or leave her? No difference, the bandits notice you immediately either way.
Kill or leave the dog? No difference, it's only mentioned in one line afterward.
Accept Nick's apology? No difference but one line of dialogue.
Give water to the dying man? No difference except you can give Pete a drink.
Save Nick or Pete? Pete dies either way. (altho this choice isn't the best example of weak consequences because going with Nick or Pete results in interesting development for either of them)
Take blame for Sarah's photo? No difference whatsoever.
Who to sit with at dinner? No difference, neither of them change their attitude do you.
Tell Walter the truth about Matthew? No difference, you can still convince him to save Nick.
Nick's fate? whether he lives or dies do… [view original content]
There is still MORE variation. I didn't say there was a lot, but most definitely MORE. TT is moving in the right direction with adding MORE choices that matter, but not as many as I personally,and most likely, we generally would like.
Ok, I have to admit I did cry when Omid died, I shed a tear at the shed scene in episode 2 & when Alvin died in episode 3... but in episode 4??? Like I just edited in my first comment, tears of anger don't count lol.
Yeah. But what's the most sad for me is how NOT sad I was.. if you know what I mean? like.. Sarita dies, Nick dies, Sarah dies, Rebecca dies, but it wasn't treated like we were supposed to be all that sad about any of them. They were just used as a device for something else. So I wasn't sad so much as I was amazed about them being thrown away like that.
Sarita was sad but i never had a good TWD moment with her.
I saved Sarah and i was in shock she just died out of nowhere.
Nick was sad both ways. 1. That they ruined his character. 2. It was sad to see one of my favorites go out with out one line of dialogue in the episode.
Rebecca, i had that good moment with her. She called me family.
Yeah. But what's the most sad for me is how NOT sad I was.. if you know what I mean? like.. Sarita dies, Nick dies, Sarah dies, Rebecca dies… more, but it wasn't treated like we were supposed to be all that sad about any of them. They were just used as a device for something else. So I wasn't sad so much as I was amazed about them being thrown away like that.
Even if you bring up Lee, talk her out of the panic stage and get her responsive, she still doesn't try to get up, she doesn't ask for help moving, she just sits there and says "I can't do it" in a dejected voice. It's not freezing behavior as that occurs only briefly and she is shown to move her arms and upper body just fine. She just can't will herself to make any attempt to survive.
For the last time, the fact that someone is a burden does NOT make them worthless. Rebecca's baby is an incredible burden on her and the group, but it's safety and well-being is still seen by the group to be paramount. "Worthless" and "useless" are different words with different meanings. Sarah is useless. Her inability to care for herself or contribute to any aspect of survival encumbers the group. That does not make her life worthless.
When a person refuses to be led away from death they have given up on trying to live.
Sarah was not purposely trying to die. She did… more not refuse to be led away from death, she was unable to. She was portrayed as being unable to move as a result of being in a panic attack. Never is it outright stated that she wants to die.
depending on the severity of the condition and the situation, that does make them a burden.
This is a very offensive point of view. You cannot excuse a storyline that forces the view that a person who happens to have a psychological condition is worthless and nothing more than a burden to themselves or the people around them. That's disgusting.
The fact that TTG chose to prove people who think like you right only makes it more offensive.
You know what? I was already suspecting that, but it was confirmed yesterday: Season 2 is just a bridge for something bigger on Season 3.
… more I don't know what will happen on Episode 5 and the DLC, but I know that it'll set up something huge for the sequel.
Yeah, my problem is the story of season 2 as whole. Episodes by themselves aren't bad, they just don't fit together. The least Telltale could do was adding hubs with optional conversations so we could get to know characters better, I'm pretty sure the voice-actors had like 10 times less work than in season 1.
The deaths of Nick and Sarah didn't disappoint me that much, though I think there should have been at least the choice to shoot Sarah so she doesn't have to suffer. People say she could have been easily savable in the second scenario if people went down, but Jane actually did lift the wood, Sarah just didn't move. Except that Luke's reaction to Nick definitily wasn't okay.
This wouldn't have been such a problem for me if the episodes fitted together, as they actually did with episode 1 -> episode 2. Again people pointing out that the characters completely changed they characterization, but that's not true. Carlos was very wary of Clementine, but in episode 2 she "saved" Sarah by encountering Carver, that's why he became kind of fond of her. Rebecca was just filled with hormones, Luke was a good guy since start. The biggest problem was that Carlos told Clem they'll lock her up in the shed till the morning, which was the only reason why Clem had to fix herself up, but when she does it, the half an hour, or whatever time is enough to decide for him if she was bit or not... That made no sense whatsoever, except to make a reason for Clem to sew herself.
These are minor things that really didn't bother me that much, what bothers me are the connections in episode 3 and 4 - the most obvious thing that Christa isn't mentioned in neither of these episodes even with the baby situation. I'd like to think she wasn't mentioned just so we can be more surprised that she shows up in episode 5, but that wouldn't justify it anyway.
Overall still amazing game, much better than vast majority of other games... The potential unfortunately wasn't met by far. I hope Breckon will fix a lot of things in episode 5, but there was already too much damage done.
The theory that this season is just the bridge to season 3 would be the best scenario I could get behind at.
i agree with you also @Reusou after the previous episodes this was a real slap in the face for real fans of the series. there is so much garbage written in the episode,it's more like a fan fic.
The episode has minor good points,the racoon family is a nice touch and brought out the characters emotions,that there is still some humanity left,and the conferderate jacket was a funny thing,because the characters would dance around the subject and it wasn't written in any way offensive to anyone.but you touch on 'written obnoxiously ' it sure feels like it, any pact or friendship was rubbished to the point where it was unrecognisable from the previous episodes,im not even sure if anyone has mentioned how artificial making the deck fall was? it was just pathetic like most of the episode.
@TT247 mentioned in another post how Sarah was out of her shell somewhat when Carlos wasn't around and stood up to Troy for slapping Clem,they must of forgot it,in this episode because i don't know who this 'Sarah' was? or this 'Clem' or 'Kenny'.....
Thank you for doing this. I am glad that I was not the only one who was just broken by the atrocious butchering of potential.
Also, Jane … moreleaving the game alive. Seriously. They kill Sarita, they kill Nick, they kill Sarah, they kill Rebecca. All who had potential but they were too lazy to explore them. But rather than end Jane the Original Character's involvement in the plot with a death (could have been written to punish her assumptions that one can survive alone, creating moral contrast for the player), they refuse to kill her and just let her walk away alive. Wow. Molly The Original Character 2.0, huh. Yeah. Thanks.
For some reason I felt the writers of this episode were actually valiant fans of Kenny (judging from all the excessive badass-building and drama that is thrown his way, plus his active involvement with the plot that leaves deuteragonist Luke no space to develop) and probably very fond of characters like Molly who dance on… [view original content]
At last I decided to join this discussion as well because I feel very strongly about Amid The Ruins and I think what happened to its characters is very problematic.
The thing about Sarah is that having her, as a disabled female character in a video game, to me, was simpy groundbreaking. It's just something I have never had before and to finally get some actual representation of my own disability, I can not even begin to describe how happy it made me. To see her being treated with actual respect in the the former episodes is so rare for in media people like me are seen as the greatest liabilty there is. I have never seen a disabled or mentally ill character survive without either being dsrespected and hated, becoming the villian, or simply being killed off for the sake of other characters.
We are thrown under the bus constantly, being left to die or slapped and screamed at in trailers for reacting to what society, survivor’s groups, and writers really think of us. If it had not been for the player, Clementine, [who of course, too, had the ‘liberating’ and sadly often used possibility (shown in the statistics) to throw off remaining weight that happens to be a person] no one, literally no one would have stayed with Sarah.
Not Luke who couldn’t comprehend to why convincing her to stop screaming in fear, facing a meltdown after losing her father hours ago, by screaming and yelling at her himself was not a good idea.
Not Jane who saw Sarah as just another dead weight to bear like the sister she left to die for not being able to cope, for being possibly mentally ill long before the outbreak. The idea to just end her ‘suffering’ or more correctly to get rid of her I am sure she had far earlier and would not mind doing again when it comes to Sarah.
Both of them would have abandoned her without thinking twice.
We had several situations in which we as the player could decide if we want to keep Sarah alive. We could convince her of the possibilities she would have if she continued living which in these moments she wasn’t sure she even wanted or could endure. We told her about Lee, how he saved Clementine. How he died to keep her safe. How he wanted her to live. She told Sarah that the group is her family now. That she is not alone even though she thinks she is. To save her all these times, to me, felt like saving myself. It felt like pulling myself up from my own struggles again and again. And then realising, that no matter what you did, they won’t let her live was like a slap in the face, literally. At the end she died alone, screaming for her family, for Clementine. At last she wanted to live. She wanted to fight and to stay with the group, to acknowledge to herself that she is a survivor, too, and has been all along. She wanted to live. And after all these times of saving her, of convincing her to keep living no one really tried to help her. She had to die as she lived. Alone with people yelling at her that she’s not.
'IAMCLEMENTINE' is what people ought to think. What I ought to think. But in my case, despite how much I love Clementine, it isn't true anymore. IAMSARAH. And even Clementine was Sarah at the beginning of Season 1. Sarah could have survived this. Without magically curing her disabilty as well. Because it is not the disability that killed her. People with every kinds of disabilities or mental illness could survive in an outbreak. Because we know how it feels to survive in our own current world. Sarah could have lived. We can live. The problem is: We are not wanted to. And in a game that, until Episode 4, was progressive in diversity and in my opinion feminist it is devastating to realise that not even there someone like Sarah, like me, is allowed to survive.
Sarah had the potential to become one of the main characters this season to make room for the thought that there are countless ways of surviving this world. That it is not mandatory to become as badass as Clementine has (which on its own is a wonderful thing) or as coldhearted as Jane. You can be vulnerable and still survive. But instead of showing this they wasted her storyline that up to this point had inspired me greatly just to add another name to the list of the dead that is way too long this episode and filled with people whose deaths did nothing to move the story forward like it was (more or less successfully) done in season 1.
And the countless people on all kinds of social media who wished for her death and celebrated it after it had occurred were the reason I hoped for Telltale Games to keep her in the game. I wished for her to slowly adapt to the circumstances as best as she can without being cured. It would have been so satisfying to have someone in this game who is clearly disabled and who has to face these prejudices from both the cabin group and the people who play the game and still survive, no matter how hard things get and how many meltdowns and panic attacks she might suffer. She had such a widespread scope of potential and her death was so pointless. I was very frustrated that the game fooled me into thinking I had an actual choice to keep her alive. I mean what was the point of Clem teaching her how to use a gun, how to defend herself, and to convince her to choose life several times if the writers just chose to kill her off in the most gruesome and pointless way? I know that in the real world death is never linked to a finished story and it usually cuts off right in its middle and doesn’t make any sense and the way she died would be plausible in our world but that’s not what games are for in my opinion. Games are created to tell stories and hers was not finished.
Yet what made me even angrier than Sarah’s treatment in Amid the Ruins is how Telltale actively tried to make us recognise a resemblance between Clementine and Carver and indelicately used Sarah to pull it off by making Clem either slap or leave her. I have seen these photo sets comparing the two characters many times by now and it makes me sad to see Clementine written that way. That transition of hers however is another major reason - if not for the development of Sarah’s character itself - they should have kept her alive. In season 1 Lee was Clementine’s guardian who taught her how to survive by becoming strong, fearless, and able to protect herself in a harsh world that tries to force you to become its likeness (Crawford’s people, Carver, and Jane seem to be an embodiment of that world). In season 2, Sarah, on the contrary, could have become her anchor to remind Clementine of something crucial she seems to brush off more and more, one loss at a time. In episode 5 I pictured there to be a moment with Clementine under immense threat and pressure, forced to make a decision, and about to ultimately lose her compassion and kindness for other people. In that defining moment Sarah could have been there with her to somehow convince her that there are countless ways of surving in that world. That she dosn't have to be as cold-hearted as Jane advised her to become. It would have been very effective to see Clementine turning cold and merciless towards people and even endangering the group by being that way (which I could absolutely see happening in episode 5 until Amid the Ruins happened) and having Sarah to remind her how significant it is to keep your humanity in a world that lacks it the most. I would like to see a person who is considered a ‘liabilty’ to be for once the only one who can save people - not by becoming like them in terms of toughness but instead by keeping their vulnerabilty, by showing kindness, and by reminding others of their own kindness and compassion that they’re afraid to show in order to stay alive at any cost. To show that there are many ways for a person to be brave. And I truly believe that in the end this is what Lee would have wanted for Clementine. And maybe, if it should play out the way I picture it, they’ll make up for it by giving that role to Lilly to finally allow her to redeem herself - because she, too, has crossed that line and had to pay dearly for it without ever being granted to ask for forgiveness.
It makes me upset if this season is just a steaming pile of crap just to bridge an excellent "Episode 3" because these characters were so diverse with GREAT potential to them and we were invested with them IN this season.
But i wont lose hope yet, and im really hoping episode 5 Atleast salvages a little of what's left (or if anything, hope its decently long)
this season would have went from Disappointing to great if we had more dialogue moments with the characters and hubs this i agree with you. I would have LOVED that. And even a terrible episode 4 would have been completely worth it just to know more about the Cabin folks. Actually, All 3 episodes would have been amazing and they could have slipped it in almost anywhere but they didn't.
Yeah, my problem is the story of season 2 as whole. Episodes by themselves aren't bad, they just don't fit together. The least Telltale coul… mored do was adding hubs with optional conversations so we could get to know characters better, I'm pretty sure the voice-actors had like 10 times less work than in season 1.
The deaths of Nick and Sarah didn't disappoint me that much, though I think there should have been at least the choice to shoot Sarah so she doesn't have to suffer. People say she could have been easily savable in the second scenario if people went down, but Jane actually did lift the wood, Sarah just didn't move. Except that Luke's reaction to Nick definitily wasn't okay.
This wouldn't have been such a problem for me if the episodes fitted together, as they actually did with episode 1 -> episode 2. Again people pointing out that the characters completely changed they characterization, but that's not true. Carlos was very wary o… [view original content]
Agreed, we applauded Telltale and continued to support them for their creative, intelligent and diverse characterization and writing. Although certain events are unavoidable they were able to craft scenarios in different perspectives and overall lead to some unique experiences.
This season had a handful of flaws. And very disappointing writing to seemingly Potential-filled characters and scenarios all of which falls flat on their faces. Telltale can churn out subpar episodes of they like, but they'll ruin their great reputation if this keeps up and blemish a series that they worked so well to build up.
Sometime, artists make choices of their own and they decide to live with them and simply watch how it ends up and how fan react
That… more is very true. Telltale are at perfectly liberty to craft episodes however they wish. However, if they want people to actually purchase and applaud their intellectual property then they do need to listen to "how fans react", and adapt accordingly. I would argue that content creators are indeed accountable insofar as they need to provide value for money, especially when things such as episodic content and season passes are involved, and so that leaves Telltale with a choice. Either they can do whatever the hell they want story-wise, and end up alienating the very people who are giving them money and a reputation, or else listen to fan feedback so long as it is reasonable and try to create something that everyone can enjoy. I don't see why I should have to keep silent when the episodic content that I have p… [view original content]
I think perhaps Season 2 has too many characters in the canon to be as complex and multi-faceted as those in the first one. The new group is… more simply nowhere near as interesting as the first band of survivors Clementine travelled with and Carver, a character who could have driven the story over much more bigger arc, was prematurely killed off. It's also difficult to muster the same emotion for characters that die: there's nothing thus far (bar Omid's death) that has been remotely anywhere near as shocking as Katjaa or Duck or Carley or Doug. In my opinion anyway. In fact, I felt more sad about the dog Clementine was forced to put down than I did when many of the supporting cast were offed.
100% Agree! She should have survived, she should have developed into a survivor but one that never loses heart and that sees it differently! A best friend to Clementine and a reminder that there's good people, different people that are still fighting.
At last I decided to join this discussion as well because I feel very strongly about Amid The Ruins and I think what happened to its charact… moreers is very problematic.
The thing about Sarah is that having her, as a disabled female character in a video game, to me, was simpy groundbreaking. It's just something I have never had before and to finally get some actual representation of my own disability, I can not even begin to describe how happy it made me. To see her being treated with actual respect in the the former episodes is so rare for in media people like me are seen as the greatest liabilty there is. I have never seen a disabled or mentally ill character survive without either being dsrespected and hated, becoming the villian, or simply being killed off for the sake of other characters.
We are thrown under the bus constantly, being left to die or slapped and screamed at in trailers for reacting to what society, survivor’s groups, and wr… [view original content]
Thank you! The thing is I never expected Sarah to die this season - not so early in her storyline at least; a storyline that never got any conclusion for her character or even improvement. As the player you could go to such great lengths to reason with her, to become her friend, and to tell her that her life is worth something - and a few minutes later in the game she just dies without her even getting a bit of time to think it all through, to let it all sink in, everything that happened to her. In season 1 with Ben we at least got his very sigificant speech to Kenny even though he was a determinant character, too. Something important you would have missed out on if you decided to let him fall off the bell tower. But we never got that with Sarah, we couldn't even talk to her afterwards in front of the museum which would have been the perfect opportunity to get that chance. It just felt to me that we never had any saying to what happens to Sarah at all. Nothing we did ever really affected her and that's what really bothers me. Not that she died but how.
100% Agree! She should have survived, she should have developed into a survivor but one that never loses heart and that sees it differently!… more A best friend to Clementine and a reminder that there's good people, different people that are still fighting.
Seriously, To be honest before the episode even came out I was expecting her to last ATLEAST until Episode 5, but now that they announced a Season 3, She could have easily lasted through S5 episode 3 and 4. Cuz can you imagine? A season that starts out with TWO best friends who are girls as your main protagonists? Especially a Neuro-Atypical Sarah learning and becoming stronger and supports Clementine? The puzzles they'll solve and the people they meet?
I didn't mind too much that she passed away in Episode 4 but My god was her death the most disrespectful waste in fictional history. No one even teared for her, No one missed her. Not Luke or Clementine. Which is just Awful awful writing. Like I wish there was an option to shove Luke and Jane off to distract the walkers so Clem can jump down and save Sarah and run off, and that would have been infinitely better than what we ended up with. (Cuz Jane just leaves instilling some messed up loner B.S despite everything and Luke doesn't even take responsibility for his mistakes)
Sarah and Rebecca were like my everything that this season would be decent. shakes head
Thank you! The thing is I never expected Sarah to die this season - not so early in her storyline at least; a storyline that never got any c… moreonclusion for her character or even improvement. As the player you could go to such great lengths to reason with her, to become her friend, and to tell her that her life is worth something - and a few minutes later in the game she just dies without her even getting a bit of time to think it all through, to let it all sink in, everything that happened to her. In season 1 with Ben we at least got his very sigificant speech to Kenny even though he was a determinant character, too. Something important you would have missed out on if you decided to let him fall off the bell tower. But we never got that with Sarah, we couldn't even talk to her afterwards in front of the museum which would have been the perfect opportunity to get that chance. It just felt to me that we never had any saying to what happens to Sar… [view original content]
having Sarah and Clem continue on into season 3 would of been great to see how they would both grow and develop,both having lost parents,and both children trying to adapt to be adults....BUT Telltale wasted there chance to be proper storytellers...
Seriously, To be honest before the episode even came out I was expecting her to last ATLEAST until Episode 5, but now that they announced a … moreSeason 3, She could have easily lasted through S5 episode 3 and 4. Cuz can you imagine? A season that starts out with TWO best friends who are girls as your main protagonists? Especially a Neuro-Atypical Sarah learning and becoming stronger and supports Clementine? The puzzles they'll solve and the people they meet?
I didn't mind too much that she passed away in Episode 4 but My god was her death the most disrespectful waste in fictional history. No one even teared for her, No one missed her. Not Luke or Clementine. Which is just Awful awful writing. Like I wish there was an option to shove Luke and Jane off to distract the walkers so Clem can jump down and save Sarah and run off, and that would have been infinitely better than what we ended up with. (Cuz Jane just leaves instilling some messed up lone… [view original content]
I know, right? Two girls of colour, one of them most definitely autistic, both of them learning from each other - the possibilties were endless for these two to make it together. I just keep imagining them returning to the cabin, trying to learn how to live in this world. I imagine Sarah cheering up Clementine when she's sad about Lee with reading to her from her books and Clem showing Sarah how to make leaf rubbings to calm her down when having a panic attack. I imagine them striving the woods for food and Sarah noticing important live saving details because even though she has trouble seeing the big picture, she is perfect in noticing little things of equal importance. And even if they were to survive with people such as Luke and Kenny, Sarah could still play a major part in the game. I'm just really sad they didn't keep her in the game at least a bit longer for her to grow from the pain of losing her father and to learn how to shoot and defend herself. I wish she would have stayed until other players who couldn't relate to her would feel an actual loss when watching her die like I did. To not make her death as pointless as it was in Amid the Ruins.
Seriously, To be honest before the episode even came out I was expecting her to last ATLEAST until Episode 5, but now that they announced a … moreSeason 3, She could have easily lasted through S5 episode 3 and 4. Cuz can you imagine? A season that starts out with TWO best friends who are girls as your main protagonists? Especially a Neuro-Atypical Sarah learning and becoming stronger and supports Clementine? The puzzles they'll solve and the people they meet?
I didn't mind too much that she passed away in Episode 4 but My god was her death the most disrespectful waste in fictional history. No one even teared for her, No one missed her. Not Luke or Clementine. Which is just Awful awful writing. Like I wish there was an option to shove Luke and Jane off to distract the walkers so Clem can jump down and save Sarah and run off, and that would have been infinitely better than what we ended up with. (Cuz Jane just leaves instilling some messed up lone… [view original content]
Even though i didn't enjoy very much episode 3 (though now it's way better than episode 4), I really liked the characterization of Sarah in that episode. Actually I liked her since the beginning of the season for beeing such a realistic, positive and naive (in a good way) character, but it's only since episode 3 that my feelings towards her started to become the same that i had for Clementine while i was playing Lee in Season 1. Plus, I really liked the concept of Clementine trying to teach and protect her like she was acting as Lee and it really seemed that Sarah's friendly attitude was going to be usefull for Clementine mental sanity.
I was hoping for a deeper Sarah's characterization and, of course, for a "hug choice" (that trolls..) and now I just feel angry.
You were not the only one feeling so attached to her character and I really think that after Telltale's way to handle Sarah in this episode they lost a lot of fans (one for sure!)
At last I decided to join this discussion as well because I feel very strongly about Amid The Ruins and I think what happened to its charact… moreers is very problematic.
The thing about Sarah is that having her, as a disabled female character in a video game, to me, was simpy groundbreaking. It's just something I have never had before and to finally get some actual representation of my own disability, I can not even begin to describe how happy it made me. To see her being treated with actual respect in the the former episodes is so rare for in media people like me are seen as the greatest liabilty there is. I have never seen a disabled or mentally ill character survive without either being dsrespected and hated, becoming the villian, or simply being killed off for the sake of other characters.
We are thrown under the bus constantly, being left to die or slapped and screamed at in trailers for reacting to what society, survivor’s groups, and wr… [view original content]
i agree Anna,the possibilities would of been endless,i don't think they ever realised how to write for a character such as Sarah,and was easier just to kill her off without thinking,i bet they didn't bank on this can of worms that they opened....,it would be nice if Telltale replied to this thread and everyone in it.
I know, right? Two girls of colour, one of them most definitely autistic, both of them learning from each other - the possibilties were endl… moreess for these two to make it together. I just keep imagining them returning to the cabin, trying to learn how to live in this world. I imagine Sarah cheering up Clementine when she's sad about Lee with reading to her from her books and Clem showing Sarah how to make leaf rubbings to calm her down when having a panic attack. I imagine them striving the woods for food and Sarah noticing important live saving details because even though she has trouble seeing the big picture, she is perfect in noticing little things of equal importance. And even if they were to survive with people such as Luke and Kenny, Sarah could still play a major part in the game. I'm just really sad they didn't keep her in the game at least a bit longer for her to grow from the pain of losing her father and to learn how to shoot and de… [view original content]
Even though i didn't enjoy very much episode 3 (though now it's way better than episode 4), I really liked the characterization of Sarah in … morethat episode. Actually I liked her since the beginning of the season for beeing such a realistic, positive and naive (in a good way) character, but it's only since episode 3 that my feelings towards her started to become the same that i had for Clementine while i was playing Lee in Season 1. Plus, I really liked the concept of Clementine trying to teach and protect her like she was acting as Lee and it really seemed that Sarah's friendly attitude was going to be usefull for Clementine mental sanity.
I was hoping for a deeper Sarah's characterization and, of course, for a "hug choice" (that trolls..) and now I just feel angry.
You were not the only one feeling so attached to her character and I really think that after Telltale's way to handle Sarah in this episode they lost a lot of fans (one for sure!)
Telltale have just written someone who feels like my best friend out of the story is such a cheap way,trolling everyone who was attached to her,with the message:shes' weak,she dies!....enjoy the new fans...because your losing the ones who put you there...
Yeah, TWD fanbase is slowly but steadily becoming like COD's fanbase. "Look how cool and badass he/she is! He/she is my favourite character!" or "She didn't kill 100000 zombies so she is a liability and annoying."
Telltale have just written someone who feels like my best friend out of the story is such a cheap way,trolling everyone who was attached to … moreher,with the message:shes' weak,she dies!....enjoy the new fans...because your losing the ones who put you there...
Comments
I agree with you 100%.
Telltale has wasted our time and money there is so much speculation and amazing ideas just on the forum, a lot of these speculations and ideas are a lot better then the story itself. A lot of people will disagree, but I'm not saying I'm going to stop playing the game cause' we all know that would be a lie. I wish season 2 was more like season 1, the main difference from season 1 and 2 is that season 1 was emotionally driven while season 2 is plot-driven. We all loved the walking dead because it was like nothing before, the characters were real and had they're faults, it was about survival and teamwork. Meanwhile season 2 consists of overly dramatized situations, cliff-hangers, contradiction, and the mere fact that as fans of the walking dead we will cling to the idea that the story will get better. I feel that they have presented the characters badly, made Clementine do everything and instead of making the beautiful and heartbreaking emotionally moving story we expected they gave us shit. So as fans we have the right to be pissed. But mainly I'm just disappointed, these characters really aren't real this season because of telltales sloppy writing, and need to kill off characters for shock value. But what telltale doesn't realize is that shock value is gone, in fact if anything going this route is predictable. Still here we are waiting for a connection that will never come. I hope telltale reads this and makes the effort to fill plot holes and make the simple fixes that could change everything and make the game a thousand times better.
You're probably right. But that doesn't mean that this season's writing can be excused for not treating events/themes/characters with the gravity they deserved.
Well said, I agree!
But Nick didn't take a bullet in episode 3. He was only shown to have been shot at the very beginning of episode 4.
& just because "it makes sense" doesn't excuse it from being unsatisfying. Carlos's absence was never even addressed or shown to be part of the reason Nick died.
I think perhaps Season 2 has too many characters in the canon to be as complex and multi-faceted as those in the first one. The new group is simply nowhere near as interesting as the first band of survivors Clementine travelled with and Carver, a character who could have driven the story over much more bigger arc, was prematurely killed off. It's also difficult to muster the same emotion for characters that die: there's nothing thus far (bar Omid's death) that has been remotely anywhere near as shocking as Katjaa or Duck or Carley or Doug. In my opinion anyway. In fact, I felt more sad about the dog Clementine was forced to put down than I did when many of the supporting cast were offed.
This point keeps getting lost so I'm going to try to put it as clearly as possible here.
I am not saying that every single thing is this season is a complete and nonsensical failure. My opinion is that the potential and foundation is in fact well-established but it has failed to follow through.
I'm going to use the specific example of "themes in S2".
You could interpret that:
Episode 1= the question about trusting groups, establishing that Clem is "just a little girl"
Episode 2= strength lies in the group, are you loyal?
Episode 3= strong vs weak, do you have to lose your morals in order to survive?
Episode 4= the group is fracturing, is it better to stay or leave?
Now for my main point: each of these themes if you look hard, can be interpreted as being present in the episodes. But the connection between them is not developed. And because of this, in some cases it's hard to even point out that there is a focused theme in any episodes at all. As a result the themes only appear weaker and weaker as the season goes on because the foundation has been built but is not followed through.
Here's some specific examples:
Episode 2 nullifies the theme in episode 1 of trust when the cabin crew suddenly all like and depend on Clementine for no reason. We are not shown this development, or how anyone changed their mind about her, so the theme is invalidated and wasted.
When the group depends on Clem to do everything in episodes 2 and 3, the previous theme that Clem is "just" a little girl is erased. In episode 1, when she got things done (such as sewing up her arm), it was treated in such a way that pointed out "she is just a little girl, but she's tough." The purpose to this was to show that Clem had development since the time skip, so it made sense. The fact that she was "just a little girl" was not yet invalidated because some things continued to be a struggle, but her growth allowed her to overcome it.
But then in episode 2, Clem is shown to be not only capable, but even DEPENDED on to do things for the adults. In itself this would not have been too huge of a mistake since it seemed to only be a case of "Clem is the PC so she has to do lots of things." The fanbase pointed out this mistake, but instead of fixing the issue, episode 3 only made it worse when Clementine continued to be depended on, not only because of her role as the PC but sometimes specifically BECAUSE she was a little girl (you're the only one who can fit through etc).
There is nothing shown to emphasize that this was supposed to be logical character development. It simply "happens", and the narrative does nothing to justify it.
In itself, the progression/change in theme is not "bad", but there is no buildup to indicate that this is supposed to be a conscious change or development to the theme/character. As a result, it's just sloppy writing.
Here's another example.
The theme of "strength in numbers" that was touched on in episode 2 is skewed by Carver's view that "the strong stand together, and get rid of the weak parts."
In itself, this is not bad. It could have even been an interesting counterpoint to episode 2's point that it might be good to stick in a group and pull together.
But the only time Carver is actually shown to hold this view is when he gives the speech stating that they have to pull together as a group. Everything else he does shows a complete lack of subtlety or moral code, and it's all about "this guy is evil, now hate him!" He is no longer shown to have a twisted moral code or a point that might be valid, instead he just goes around beating and killing everybody.
The issue is no longer treated with any development or subtlety, so as a result, the point is lost.
The foundation for these themes/developments is there, but they're not followed through or developed further. As a result, the entire season feels wasted and unsatisfying.
edit: adding this to the original post to make my point more clear w/ examples.
Ehh, idk. Personally I felt a bigger connection to the characters in s2 than in season 1. They just end up falling flat because they had so much potential & it was never followed thru.
Telltale completely wasted the potential that they themselves created. That's what people are having a problem with here.
I've pointed out many times that my own personal expectations have nothing to do with why this season has become a failure.
The entire trailer sequence was Sarah relegating herself to die. All she says is "I can't" "I can't" "I can't." Clem can later ask Sarah if she wanted Clem to leave her, to which she replies "I just want my dad," indicating that she has no inclination to survive by herself. Whether or not she actually wanted to die, it's clear that she had resigned herself to death in the trailer, the same way Jane's sister resigned herself to death on the rooftop. Would either girl have outright committed suicide by themselves? Probably not. But when presented a choice to struggle to live or lay down and die, they chose the latter. It's what the conversation with Kenny was about. He wasn't going to commit suicide himself, but he asked why Carver couldn't have just killed him because it would have given him an out rather than having to face another day of punishment.
Having no regard for the safety of others because your condition makes you unable to have regard for the safety of others is still having no regard for the safety of others. Jane was pointing out the reality of the situation. She wasn't accusing Sarah of selfishness or saying that it was her fault. Drug addiction makes people obsessed with the drug and prioritize obtaining it above the person's livelihood, their morals, and other people's well-being. It's not their fault, but that doesn't make the actions that they do any less harmful to the people around them.
What? Of course it's a burden for a person to have a complicated mental condition. It's a burden that takes its toll not only on the person, but also their loved ones and everyone around them. Good people will carry that burden out of care for the person and sympathy for their plight, but it's simply false to say that it's not a burden, especially in a world that unforgiving.
The fact that she cannot survive by herself in her current state is not the same as having an explicit death wish.
And now you're just victim-blaming. Not cool.
You are WAYYYY oversimplifying here. You edited out the part where I said that it's not SELFISH of a person to have a condition that they are BORN with.
Having a complicated mental condition makes life difficult for the person with that condition. But it does not reduce them to being nothing more than a "burden" on themselves or others.
Damn this thing is so long my computer lagged
When a person refuses to be led away from death, they have given up on trying to live.
No, victim-blaming would mean that I think it's the victims fault. I don't, as I have explicitly stated many, many times already. But if someone has a condition that makes being around them dangerous, that's something that needs to be acknowledged.
Having a complicated mental condition also makes life difficult for the people who need to care for the person with that condition. And depending on the severity of the condition and the situation, that does make them a burden. In Sarah's case, her inability to simply stand up and crawl to the safety that was provided to her by the group was putting all of their lives at risk. It's not her fault she's a burden, but she's still a burden.
Sarah was not purposely trying to die. She did not refuse to be led away from death, she was unable to. She was portrayed as being unable to move as a result of being in a panic attack. Never is it outright stated that she wants to die.
This is a very offensive point of view. You cannot excuse a storyline that forces the view that a person who happens to have a psychological condition is worthless and nothing more than a burden to themselves or the people around them. That's disgusting.
The fact that TTG chose to prove people who think like you right only makes it more offensive.
the story in season 2 became pointless....
Ok, I have to admit I did cry when Omid died, I shed a tear at the shed scene in episode 2 & when Alvin died in episode 3... but in episode 4??? Like I just edited in my first comment, tears of anger don't count lol.
There is still MORE variation. I didn't say there was a lot, but most definitely MORE. TT is moving in the right direction with adding MORE choices that matter, but not as many as I personally,and most likely, we generally would like.
IMO more choices is definitely not going to fix anything, especially when the choices we *are *given don't have any significance anyway
Rebecca made me really sad.
Yeah. But what's the most sad for me is how NOT sad I was.. if you know what I mean? like.. Sarita dies, Nick dies, Sarah dies, Rebecca dies, but it wasn't treated like we were supposed to be all that sad about any of them. They were just used as a device for something else. So I wasn't sad so much as I was amazed about them being thrown away like that.
Sarita was sad but i never had a good TWD moment with her.
I saved Sarah and i was in shock she just died out of nowhere.
Nick was sad both ways. 1. That they ruined his character. 2. It was sad to see one of my favorites go out with out one line of dialogue in the episode.
Rebecca, i had that good moment with her. She called me family.
Even if you bring up Lee, talk her out of the panic stage and get her responsive, she still doesn't try to get up, she doesn't ask for help moving, she just sits there and says "I can't do it" in a dejected voice. It's not freezing behavior as that occurs only briefly and she is shown to move her arms and upper body just fine. She just can't will herself to make any attempt to survive.
For the last time, the fact that someone is a burden does NOT make them worthless. Rebecca's baby is an incredible burden on her and the group, but it's safety and well-being is still seen by the group to be paramount. "Worthless" and "useless" are different words with different meanings. Sarah is useless. Her inability to care for herself or contribute to any aspect of survival encumbers the group. That does not make her life worthless.
Where was that confirmed?
Telltale twitter?
Yeah, my problem is the story of season 2 as whole. Episodes by themselves aren't bad, they just don't fit together. The least Telltale could do was adding hubs with optional conversations so we could get to know characters better, I'm pretty sure the voice-actors had like 10 times less work than in season 1.
The deaths of Nick and Sarah didn't disappoint me that much, though I think there should have been at least the choice to shoot Sarah so she doesn't have to suffer. People say she could have been easily savable in the second scenario if people went down, but Jane actually did lift the wood, Sarah just didn't move. Except that Luke's reaction to Nick definitily wasn't okay.
This wouldn't have been such a problem for me if the episodes fitted together, as they actually did with episode 1 -> episode 2. Again people pointing out that the characters completely changed they characterization, but that's not true. Carlos was very wary of Clementine, but in episode 2 she "saved" Sarah by encountering Carver, that's why he became kind of fond of her. Rebecca was just filled with hormones, Luke was a good guy since start. The biggest problem was that Carlos told Clem they'll lock her up in the shed till the morning, which was the only reason why Clem had to fix herself up, but when she does it, the half an hour, or whatever time is enough to decide for him if she was bit or not... That made no sense whatsoever, except to make a reason for Clem to sew herself.
These are minor things that really didn't bother me that much, what bothers me are the connections in episode 3 and 4 - the most obvious thing that Christa isn't mentioned in neither of these episodes even with the baby situation. I'd like to think she wasn't mentioned just so we can be more surprised that she shows up in episode 5, but that wouldn't justify it anyway.
Overall still amazing game, much better than vast majority of other games... The potential unfortunately wasn't met by far. I hope Breckon will fix a lot of things in episode 5, but there was already too much damage done.
The theory that this season is just the bridge to season 3 would be the best scenario I could get behind at.
That guy changed his post so mine doesn't make sense now T_T
So I'll just put this here instead: ClemClemClemClem
i agree with you also @Reusou after the previous episodes this was a real slap in the face for real fans of the series. there is so much garbage written in the episode,it's more like a fan fic.
The episode has minor good points,the racoon family is a nice touch and brought out the characters emotions,that there is still some humanity left,and the conferderate jacket was a funny thing,because the characters would dance around the subject and it wasn't written in any way offensive to anyone.but you touch on 'written obnoxiously ' it sure feels like it, any pact or friendship was rubbished to the point where it was unrecognisable from the previous episodes,im not even sure if anyone has mentioned how artificial making the deck fall was? it was just pathetic like most of the episode.
@TT247 mentioned in another post how Sarah was out of her shell somewhat when Carlos wasn't around and stood up to Troy for slapping Clem,they must of forgot it,in this episode because i don't know who this 'Sarah' was? or this 'Clem' or 'Kenny'.....
At last I decided to join this discussion as well because I feel very strongly about Amid The Ruins and I think what happened to its characters is very problematic.
The thing about Sarah is that having her, as a disabled female character in a video game, to me, was simpy groundbreaking. It's just something I have never had before and to finally get some actual representation of my own disability, I can not even begin to describe how happy it made me. To see her being treated with actual respect in the the former episodes is so rare for in media people like me are seen as the greatest liabilty there is. I have never seen a disabled or mentally ill character survive without either being dsrespected and hated, becoming the villian, or simply being killed off for the sake of other characters.
We are thrown under the bus constantly, being left to die or slapped and screamed at in trailers for reacting to what society, survivor’s groups, and writers really think of us. If it had not been for the player, Clementine, [who of course, too, had the ‘liberating’ and sadly often used possibility (shown in the statistics) to throw off remaining weight that happens to be a person] no one, literally no one would have stayed with Sarah.
Not Luke who couldn’t comprehend to why convincing her to stop screaming in fear, facing a meltdown after losing her father hours ago, by screaming and yelling at her himself was not a good idea.
Not Jane who saw Sarah as just another dead weight to bear like the sister she left to die for not being able to cope, for being possibly mentally ill long before the outbreak. The idea to just end her ‘suffering’ or more correctly to get rid of her I am sure she had far earlier and would not mind doing again when it comes to Sarah.
Both of them would have abandoned her without thinking twice.
We had several situations in which we as the player could decide if we want to keep Sarah alive. We could convince her of the possibilities she would have if she continued living which in these moments she wasn’t sure she even wanted or could endure. We told her about Lee, how he saved Clementine. How he died to keep her safe. How he wanted her to live. She told Sarah that the group is her family now. That she is not alone even though she thinks she is. To save her all these times, to me, felt like saving myself. It felt like pulling myself up from my own struggles again and again. And then realising, that no matter what you did, they won’t let her live was like a slap in the face, literally. At the end she died alone, screaming for her family, for Clementine. At last she wanted to live. She wanted to fight and to stay with the group, to acknowledge to herself that she is a survivor, too, and has been all along. She wanted to live. And after all these times of saving her, of convincing her to keep living no one really tried to help her. She had to die as she lived. Alone with people yelling at her that she’s not.
'IAMCLEMENTINE' is what people ought to think. What I ought to think. But in my case, despite how much I love Clementine, it isn't true anymore. IAMSARAH. And even Clementine was Sarah at the beginning of Season 1. Sarah could have survived this. Without magically curing her disabilty as well. Because it is not the disability that killed her. People with every kinds of disabilities or mental illness could survive in an outbreak. Because we know how it feels to survive in our own current world. Sarah could have lived. We can live. The problem is: We are not wanted to. And in a game that, until Episode 4, was progressive in diversity and in my opinion feminist it is devastating to realise that not even there someone like Sarah, like me, is allowed to survive.
Sarah had the potential to become one of the main characters this season to make room for the thought that there are countless ways of surviving this world. That it is not mandatory to become as badass as Clementine has (which on its own is a wonderful thing) or as coldhearted as Jane. You can be vulnerable and still survive. But instead of showing this they wasted her storyline that up to this point had inspired me greatly just to add another name to the list of the dead that is way too long this episode and filled with people whose deaths did nothing to move the story forward like it was (more or less successfully) done in season 1.
And the countless people on all kinds of social media who wished for her death and celebrated it after it had occurred were the reason I hoped for Telltale Games to keep her in the game. I wished for her to slowly adapt to the circumstances as best as she can without being cured. It would have been so satisfying to have someone in this game who is clearly disabled and who has to face these prejudices from both the cabin group and the people who play the game and still survive, no matter how hard things get and how many meltdowns and panic attacks she might suffer. She had such a widespread scope of potential and her death was so pointless. I was very frustrated that the game fooled me into thinking I had an actual choice to keep her alive. I mean what was the point of Clem teaching her how to use a gun, how to defend herself, and to convince her to choose life several times if the writers just chose to kill her off in the most gruesome and pointless way? I know that in the real world death is never linked to a finished story and it usually cuts off right in its middle and doesn’t make any sense and the way she died would be plausible in our world but that’s not what games are for in my opinion. Games are created to tell stories and hers was not finished.
Yet what made me even angrier than Sarah’s treatment in Amid the Ruins is how Telltale actively tried to make us recognise a resemblance between Clementine and Carver and indelicately used Sarah to pull it off by making Clem either slap or leave her. I have seen these photo sets comparing the two characters many times by now and it makes me sad to see Clementine written that way. That transition of hers however is another major reason - if not for the development of Sarah’s character itself - they should have kept her alive. In season 1 Lee was Clementine’s guardian who taught her how to survive by becoming strong, fearless, and able to protect herself in a harsh world that tries to force you to become its likeness (Crawford’s people, Carver, and Jane seem to be an embodiment of that world). In season 2, Sarah, on the contrary, could have become her anchor to remind Clementine of something crucial she seems to brush off more and more, one loss at a time. In episode 5 I pictured there to be a moment with Clementine under immense threat and pressure, forced to make a decision, and about to ultimately lose her compassion and kindness for other people. In that defining moment Sarah could have been there with her to somehow convince her that there are countless ways of surving in that world. That she dosn't have to be as cold-hearted as Jane advised her to become. It would have been very effective to see Clementine turning cold and merciless towards people and even endangering the group by being that way (which I could absolutely see happening in episode 5 until Amid the Ruins happened) and having Sarah to remind her how significant it is to keep your humanity in a world that lacks it the most. I would like to see a person who is considered a ‘liabilty’ to be for once the only one who can save people - not by becoming like them in terms of toughness but instead by keeping their vulnerabilty, by showing kindness, and by reminding others of their own kindness and compassion that they’re afraid to show in order to stay alive at any cost. To show that there are many ways for a person to be brave. And I truly believe that in the end this is what Lee would have wanted for Clementine. And maybe, if it should play out the way I picture it, they’ll make up for it by giving that role to Lilly to finally allow her to redeem herself - because she, too, has crossed that line and had to pay dearly for it without ever being granted to ask for forgiveness.
It makes me upset if this season is just a steaming pile of crap just to bridge an excellent "Episode 3" because these characters were so diverse with GREAT potential to them and we were invested with them IN this season.
But i wont lose hope yet, and im really hoping episode 5 Atleast salvages a little of what's left (or if anything, hope its decently long)
this season would have went from Disappointing to great if we had more dialogue moments with the characters and hubs this i agree with you. I would have LOVED that. And even a terrible episode 4 would have been completely worth it just to know more about the Cabin folks. Actually, All 3 episodes would have been amazing and they could have slipped it in almost anywhere but they didn't.
Just really sad.
Agreed, we applauded Telltale and continued to support them for their creative, intelligent and diverse characterization and writing. Although certain events are unavoidable they were able to craft scenarios in different perspectives and overall lead to some unique experiences.
This season had a handful of flaws. And very disappointing writing to seemingly Potential-filled characters and scenarios all of which falls flat on their faces. Telltale can churn out subpar episodes of they like, but they'll ruin their great reputation if this keeps up and blemish a series that they worked so well to build up.
I would say they don't seem AS interesting because we never talk to them apart from when the plot pushes you to. Which is a big big shame.
100% Agree! She should have survived, she should have developed into a survivor but one that never loses heart and that sees it differently! A best friend to Clementine and a reminder that there's good people, different people that are still fighting.
Thank you! The thing is I never expected Sarah to die this season - not so early in her storyline at least; a storyline that never got any conclusion for her character or even improvement. As the player you could go to such great lengths to reason with her, to become her friend, and to tell her that her life is worth something - and a few minutes later in the game she just dies without her even getting a bit of time to think it all through, to let it all sink in, everything that happened to her. In season 1 with Ben we at least got his very sigificant speech to Kenny even though he was a determinant character, too. Something important you would have missed out on if you decided to let him fall off the bell tower. But we never got that with Sarah, we couldn't even talk to her afterwards in front of the museum which would have been the perfect opportunity to get that chance. It just felt to me that we never had any saying to what happens to Sarah at all. Nothing we did ever really affected her and that's what really bothers me. Not that she died but how.
Seriously, To be honest before the episode even came out I was expecting her to last ATLEAST until Episode 5, but now that they announced a Season 3, She could have easily lasted through S5 episode 3 and 4. Cuz can you imagine? A season that starts out with TWO best friends who are girls as your main protagonists? Especially a Neuro-Atypical Sarah learning and becoming stronger and supports Clementine? The puzzles they'll solve and the people they meet?
I didn't mind too much that she passed away in Episode 4 but My god was her death the most disrespectful waste in fictional history. No one even teared for her, No one missed her. Not Luke or Clementine. Which is just Awful awful writing. Like I wish there was an option to shove Luke and Jane off to distract the walkers so Clem can jump down and save Sarah and run off, and that would have been infinitely better than what we ended up with. (Cuz Jane just leaves instilling some messed up loner B.S despite everything and Luke doesn't even take responsibility for his mistakes)
Sarah and Rebecca were like my everything that this season would be decent. shakes head
having Sarah and Clem continue on into season 3 would of been great to see how they would both grow and develop,both having lost parents,and both children trying to adapt to be adults....BUT Telltale wasted there chance to be proper storytellers...
I know, right? Two girls of colour, one of them most definitely autistic, both of them learning from each other - the possibilties were endless for these two to make it together. I just keep imagining them returning to the cabin, trying to learn how to live in this world. I imagine Sarah cheering up Clementine when she's sad about Lee with reading to her from her books and Clem showing Sarah how to make leaf rubbings to calm her down when having a panic attack. I imagine them striving the woods for food and Sarah noticing important live saving details because even though she has trouble seeing the big picture, she is perfect in noticing little things of equal importance. And even if they were to survive with people such as Luke and Kenny, Sarah could still play a major part in the game. I'm just really sad they didn't keep her in the game at least a bit longer for her to grow from the pain of losing her father and to learn how to shoot and defend herself. I wish she would have stayed until other players who couldn't relate to her would feel an actual loss when watching her die like I did. To not make her death as pointless as it was in Amid the Ruins.
Even though i didn't enjoy very much episode 3 (though now it's way better than episode 4), I really liked the characterization of Sarah in that episode. Actually I liked her since the beginning of the season for beeing such a realistic, positive and naive (in a good way) character, but it's only since episode 3 that my feelings towards her started to become the same that i had for Clementine while i was playing Lee in Season 1. Plus, I really liked the concept of Clementine trying to teach and protect her like she was acting as Lee and it really seemed that Sarah's friendly attitude was going to be usefull for Clementine mental sanity.
I was hoping for a deeper Sarah's characterization and, of course, for a "hug choice" (that trolls..) and now I just feel angry.
You were not the only one feeling so attached to her character and I really think that after Telltale's way to handle Sarah in this episode they lost a lot of fans (one for sure!)
i agree Anna,the possibilities would of been endless,i don't think they ever realised how to write for a character such as Sarah,and was easier just to kill her off without thinking,i bet they didn't bank on this can of worms that they opened....,it would be nice if Telltale replied to this thread and everyone in it.
again i agree,we all seem to be at the same place here,real fans of the series,ive never liked so many posts in one thread
Telltale have just written someone who feels like my best friend out of the story is such a cheap way,trolling everyone who was attached to her,with the message:shes' weak,she dies!....enjoy the new fans...because your losing the ones who put you there...
Yeah, TWD fanbase is slowly but steadily becoming like COD's fanbase. "Look how cool and badass he/she is! He/she is my favourite character!" or "She didn't kill 100000 zombies so she is a liability and annoying."