That interview was another typical scenario of Greg Miller being as annoying as he has ever been. I did not take it seriously, but that's a… morenother whole other topic.
Did you buy the Season Pass? If you did, then you might as well see this through to the end.
It'd be smart to make some kind of response, but as far as the people flaming them on Facebook; how many actually played the game and are complaining about it? And how many just saw that their facebook or Tumblr friend made a post about an issue and are just joining in to dogpile on Telltale?
Actually, I agreed with your original post and thumb up'd this thread. The topic since then has obviously changed a lot over the 27 pages. People are upset over comments made by someone who doesn't even WORK at telltale. You just can't please some people, and they're driven to be angry over anything.
Tumblr...? Really?
Why not 4chan or Twitter or Youtube or reddit? But tumblr's blamed for having opinions?
I guess nobody else is criticizing the "best episode of the season".
The problems I mentioned in my original post are only made worse by Telltale's silence. And just because the issue is being talked about on tumblr doesn't mean it's automatically invalid. If you hadn't known the posts about Sarah had been made on Tumblr would you have taken them more seriously? After tumblr got involved in this thread a bunch of ppl kept showing up like "I used to agree with you but now I don't anymore because they're talking about it on tumblr". It's hypocritical.
Actually, I agreed with your original post and thumb up'd this thread. The topic since then has obviously changed a lot over the 27 pages. P… moreeople are upset over comments made by someone who doesn't even WORK at telltale. You just can't please some people, and they're driven to be angry over anything.
It'd be smart to make some kind of response, but as far as the people flaming them on Facebook; how many actually played the game and are co… moremplaining about it? And how many just saw that their facebook or Tumblr friend made a post about an issue and are just joining in to dogpile on Telltale?
Whether they played it or not the video's right there for them to see. The issues in the writing this episode were already criticized before the interview, it's just worse now from Telltale's reaction. Instead of addressing the fans' concerns with how the episode turned out, they ignored them and now this interview only confirms what everyone had suspected.
edit: to say nothing of this whole "fan feedback counts". Telltale can't even pretend that that's true anymore now.
It'd be smart to make some kind of response, but as far as the people flaming them on Facebook; how many actually played the game and are co… moremplaining about it? And how many just saw that their facebook or Tumblr friend made a post about an issue and are just joining in to dogpile on Telltale?
I found the deaths of Sarah and Nick both disappointing, but in no way saw how that connected to being biased against people with possible disabilities, or even worse, demonstrating that they should be killed. I actually disagreed with this line of thought before seeing the tumblr thread, and it didn't impact my judgement at all. I still entirely disagree with it, and disagree with lumping the company alongside Greg Miller simply because they were polite and let Greg voice his opinion on his own show.
The problems I mentioned in my original post are only made worse by Telltale's silence. And just because the issue is being talked about on … moretumblr doesn't mean it's automatically invalid. If you hadn't known the posts about Sarah had been made on Tumblr would you have taken them more seriously? After tumblr got involved in this thread a bunch of ppl kept showing up like "I used to agree with you but now I don't anymore because they're talking about it on tumblr". It's hypocritical.
The thing is, the writing this episode was problematic not just because it was lazy, but because it actively justified those saying "Sarah is useless/a liability and should die". It was a bad move of Telltale to cater to that crowd not just because we're offended, but because it's unsatisfying and contrary to their previous writing. Sarah was a very involved and developed character in the story, but now she's suddenly treated as completely unimportant. Her death served no purpose to the plot; she was unmourned and pointlessly killed off. It's offensive because the idea that somebody should die simply because they weren't "meant" to make it is a very harmful and common cliche. It's bad writing because it's extremely unsatisfying and nonsensical.
I found the deaths of Sarah and Nick both disappointing, but in no way saw how that connected to being biased against people with possible d… moreisabilities, or even worse, demonstrating that they should be killed. I actually disagreed with this line of thought before seeing the tumblr thread, and it didn't impact my judgement at all. I still entirely disagree with it, and disagree with lumping the company alongside Greg Miller simply because they were polite and let Greg voice his opinion on his own show.
This is too users who are only thinking of the negitives, this is not directed to everyone here since many of you think Season 2 is great but could be better (like me)
I think that complaning about it right NOW is not doing much, now its just become dwelling. I read some of this and you have a ton of good facts and reasons to feel this way. I agree Season 2 is not as good, but only pointing out negitive things helps... nothing. Now im not talking about the creator of this thread because they have a clear, good mind and point of some postives. talking about the users replying. Giving critisim right after an episode ends is great, its the reason Telltale makes episodic games. Now Episode 4 came out 3 weeks ago and when i come on here tons of users are just dwelling on the negitives. When you only view the negitives of Season 2 it makes you like it a lot less. So if you are only thinking of the negitives then in the end it is just making the exprience worse for you.
Take a look at the facebook page. Look at the comment section to the accolades trailer of episode 4. If ppl on Youtube know that this wasn't their strongest episode, you know something's wrong.
If they aren't buying the games or playing them at all, they're not fans which is what I was accounting. In other words, every user on their facebook page flaming them for this != a loyal fan disappointed who'll no longer buy their next game. It means there were a fair number of people who played the game, then brought up the issue in places where people who haven't played the game can see it, so they can join them in trying to get a response out of the issue.
I could use the term "vocal minority", but the term annoys me since if you're discussing a game heavily on an internet forum, you're already a vocal minority comapred to the silent majority who just plays the game and never discuss it at all.
Edit: Also, unfortunately, Telltale's been bad about communication for a while now.
Whether they played it or not the video's right there for them to see. The issues in the writing this episode were already criticized before… more the interview, it's just worse now from Telltale's reaction. Instead of addressing the fans' concerns with how the episode turned out, they ignored them and now this interview only confirms what everyone had suspected.
edit: to say nothing of this whole "fan feedback counts". Telltale can't even pretend that that's true anymore now.
Take a look at the facebook page. Look at the comment section to the accolades trailer of episode 4. If ppl on Youtube know that this wasn't their strongest episode, you know something's wrong.
Ok I see what you mean. But I really don't think the fan feedback shouldn't count anymore just because people who aren't fans are getting involved and upset about this. If anything, it should make what we're saying count more.
If they aren't buying the games or playing them at all, they're not fans which is what I was accounting. In other words, every user on thei… morer facebook page flaming them for this != a loyal fan disappointed who'll no longer buy their next game. It means there were a fair number of people who played the game, then brought up the issue in places where people who haven't played the game can see it, so they can join them in trying to get a response out of the issue.
I could use the term "vocal minority", but the term annoys me since if you're discussing a game heavily on an internet forum, you're already a vocal minority comapred to the silent majority who just plays the game and never discuss it at all.
Edit: Also, unfortunately, Telltale's been bad about communication for a while now.
They went a realistic route. CEASE TO FUNCTION may be a meme at this point, but it's basically correct. I agree that the direction seemed off, but the same could be said for Nick. In general, I've found this season to be more aimless. I think that's a flaw with the writing, but I don't think it has anything to do with being against disabled people. Everyone suffers the same in the universe of the walking dead.
The thing is, the writing this episode was problematic not just because it was lazy, but because it actively justified those saying "Sarah i… mores useless/a liability and should die". It was a bad move of Telltale to cater to that crowd not just because we're offended, but because it's unsatisfying and contrary to their previous writing. Sarah was a very involved and developed character in the story, but now she's suddenly treated as completely unimportant. Her death served no purpose to the plot; she was unmourned and pointlessly killed off. It's offensive because the idea that somebody should die simply because they weren't "meant" to make it is a very harmful and common cliche. It's bad writing because it's extremely unsatisfying and nonsensical.
I get what you're saying but I think the more we talk about it the more of a chance there will be for Telltale to pay attention. They need to notice so they can improve, I'm not just trying to complain for the sake of complaining. Keeping the discussion alive isn't going to hurt anybody, and if anything it might actually help.
This is too users who are only thinking of the negitives, this is not directed to everyone here since many of you think Season 2 is great bu… moret could be better (like me)
I think that complaning about it right NOW is not doing much, now its just become dwelling. I read some of this and you have a ton of good facts and reasons to feel this way. I agree Season 2 is not as good, but only pointing out negitive things helps... nothing. Now im not talking about the creator of this thread because they have a clear, good mind and point of some postives. talking about the users replying. Giving critisim right after an episode ends is great, its the reason Telltale makes episodic games. Now Episode 4 came out 3 weeks ago and when i come on here tons of users are just dwelling on the negitives. When you only view the negitives of Season 2 it makes you like it a lot less. So if you are only thinking of the negitives then in the end it is just making the exprience worse for you.
This is too users who are only thinking of the negitives, this is not directed to everyone here since many of you think Season 2 is great bu… moret could be better (like me)
I think that complaning about it right NOW is not doing much, now its just become dwelling. I read some of this and you have a ton of good facts and reasons to feel this way. I agree Season 2 is not as good, but only pointing out negitive things helps... nothing. Now im not talking about the creator of this thread because they have a clear, good mind and point of some postives. talking about the users replying. Giving critisim right after an episode ends is great, its the reason Telltale makes episodic games. Now Episode 4 came out 3 weeks ago and when i come on here tons of users are just dwelling on the negitives. When you only view the negitives of Season 2 it makes you like it a lot less. So if you are only thinking of the negitives then in the end it is just making the exprience worse for you.
this has been said before too so sorry but I'm going to copy paste again
Telltale specifically builds Sarah up to be an involved and complex character only for them to completely doom her no matter what, with no further development or character arc. Why build her up like this only for everyone to end up "wishing that she were more than she turned out to be"?
Just because what happened to her was a logical result of events in the episode does not excuse the writing itself. It does not excuse the fact that the episode was written in a way that erased all prior duality or complexity to her character.
The writing is very obviously focused on the viewpoint that Sarah is a burden, clueless, and hopelessly dependent. The most sympathy her character receives is from Jane and Luke and even then she is only used as a crutch to reveal weak insight on their characters.
Sarah was the personification of hope for fans who are continually denied fair and honest representation in media, and Telltale recieved high praise that she was created to be a complex and sympathetic character. Only for them to completely turn around and write her off without sympathy or player choice in the matter. Killing her served no purpose to the story, it did not illustrate any themes or connections to the plot. The only possible theme that people interpret it to represent -futility or hopelessness in the world- comes as a result of the shoddy writing, not as a theme that was built up to.
They went a realistic route. CEASE TO FUNCTION may be a meme at this point, but it's basically correct. I agree that the direction seemed of… moref, but the same could be said for Nick. In general, I've found this season to be more aimless. I think that's a flaw with the writing, but I don't think it has anything to do with being against disabled people. Everyone suffers the same in the universe of the walking dead.
@TeamSarah (btw good username) can you tell us something positive that made all of our choices worth it in the latest episode?
Yes i can good sir, as i said im not dwelling on the negitives but i can surely tell you some postives of Episode 4. Good length, good hubs, better puzzles, lots of character devlopment with Jane, More character devlopment with Clementine (finally), Character equalization, Sad deaths, Moral choices, Luke finally isnt perfect, and etc. And for choices i agree they lacked value, but who knows in episode 5 a couple could come into effect.
This is too users who are only thinking of the negitives, this is not directed to everyone here since many of you think Season 2 is great bu… moret could be better (like me)
I think that complaning about it right NOW is not doing much, now its just become dwelling. I read some of this and you have a ton of good facts and reasons to feel this way. I agree Season 2 is not as good, but only pointing out negitive things helps... nothing. Now im not talking about the creator of this thread because they have a clear, good mind and point of some postives. talking about the users replying. Giving critisim right after an episode ends is great, its the reason Telltale makes episodic games. Now Episode 4 came out 3 weeks ago and when i come on here tons of users are just dwelling on the negitives. When you only view the negitives of Season 2 it makes you like it a lot less. So if you are only thinking of the negitives then in the end it is just making the exprience worse for you.
If you're looking for representation in the walking dead, you're barking up the wrong tree. As one who suffers from depression, I can sympathize in my own way, but in the apocalypse, there is rarely a silver lining. Decent people become murderous savages. The strong bully the weak. People take advantage and abandon others for another day of survival.
It seems I'll continue to agree to disagree with you. I'm on your side when it comes to lack of quality writing, but I'll always refuse to believe there was some slight or insensitivity towards a group of people, regardless of race, religion, sexual preference, creed, or disabilities.
this has been said before too so sorry but I'm going to copy paste again
Telltale specifically builds Sarah up to be an involved and comp… morelex character only for them to completely doom her no matter what, with no further development or character arc. Why build her up like this only for everyone to end up "wishing that she were more than she turned out to be"?
Just because what happened to her was a logical result of events in the episode does not excuse the writing itself. It does not excuse the fact that the episode was written in a way that erased all prior duality or complexity to her character.
The writing is very obviously focused on the viewpoint that Sarah is a burden, clueless, and hopelessly dependent. The most sympathy her character receives is from Jane and Luke and even then she is only used as a crutch to reveal weak insight on their characters.
Sarah was the personification of hope for fans who are continually denied … [view original content]
TWDG had previously been well known and praised for an inclusive and dynamic cast of diverse characters. It was also a refreshing change from the run of the mill doom & gloom apocalypse stories because even though it was just as dark and just as tragic and everybody died, in the end the story was about hope. It was about the value of life, holding onto humanity and the struggle between survival and morals. This season the cast became even more diverse, it seemed to be starting out as such an improvement but now the story has taken a nosedive and all those characters are gone forever, potential wasted. For the story to completely twist everything the Walking Dead Game was all about in the space of one episode is just weird.
If you're looking for representation in the walking dead, you're barking up the wrong tree. As one who suffers from depression, I can sympat… morehize in my own way, but in the apocalypse, there is rarely a silver lining. Decent people become murderous savages. The strong bully the weak. People take advantage and abandon others for another day of survival.
It seems I'll continue to agree to disagree with you. I'm on your side when it comes to lack of quality writing, but I'll always refuse to believe there was some slight or insensitivity towards a group of people, regardless of race, religion, sexual preference, creed, or disabilities.
While i dont agree with some of your critisism (some of it just seems too much like nitpicking) but i completely agree with these points and think they're spot on and prolly couldnt have said it better myself: (Sorry for quoting)
Then suddenly in episode 2, everyone suddenly treats Clementine as if they skipped all that, calling her "Clem" and completely erasing the struggle to earn trust which had previously been a big theme of the season.
Rebecca suddenly changes her mind and forgets that she "knew Clementine was going to be a problem", and completely forgets that she could have been BLACKMAILED earlier by Clementine. Everyone treats Clem like a harmless little girl, acting as if none of this happened when they had been completely hostile only a few days before. It's fine that the cabin group changes their minds, but we are never shown what made that change, so it loses all effectiveness.
Nick changes from being completely depressed to being Luke's cheerleader. In episode 2 he received strong character focus and more backstory than arguably anyone else in the cabin group at that point. He was shown to be unable to let past mistakes go, and to constantly blame himself for things (how many times does he say "it's my fault"?), but then in episode 3 he completely forgets the past and the people he got killed, and suddenly is Mr Reassuring-and-Optimistic. The characterization is completely lazy, Rebecca is shown to be regretful about Pete's death when Reggie asks about it, and meanwhile Nick who had earlier been suicidal over it doesn't even get a reaction shot.
I mean I understand that he used to be a dad, but this was the perfect opportunity to finally reveal what happened to Christa's baby, and for the writers to prove that they haven't just completely forgotten about her & Omid. Why would we constantly be forced to talk about how Kenny knows all about babies, when we have no reason to even know that beyond the fact that he used to be a father? It was just such a complete waste of opportunity. Now if they ever want Christa to show up again it's going to look like a complete asspull, since they've apparently completely forgotten about her up to this point.
As for Nick's death "scene", I was fuming. I was prepared for him to die but I was so sure that Telltale was going to.. hell i don't know, maybe actually do something with him?!! Or give him an actual death scene? Nick was one of episode 1 and 2's most developed characters, several major decisions revolved around him, the majority of fans saved him, and he was one of the most talked-about characters in the fanbase. In response to this, Telltale thinks it's a good idea to give him no further involvement and then kill him offscreen and leave him stuck on a fence?
I can live with Sarah's fate, to me her death was always inevitable. But Telltale's way of concluding Nick's story PISSED me of more than anything else, all that EP1-EP2 development with Pete just seemed to be pointless, why have Pete take so much keen on his survival to just kill him off screen like any other unimportant character? At least Sarah died on-screen, Telltale did a piss poor job with Nick's last moments.
So...you would've cared for Sarah only if she had machine guns and killed a lot of zombies and did not have any disabilities.
Got it....
Also, yes it is realistic to see offscreen deaths in real life ,but this is a story,if every character back in Season one had one moment of redemption, I don't see why would they suddenly decide to kill off characters with good potential without any reactions of the characters in the game, and without any lines to show that we cared about them.
And how is "polite" to listen to somebody bashing a character that company created...
If you're looking for representation in the walking dead, you're barking up the wrong tree. As one who suffers from depression, I can sympat… morehize in my own way, but in the apocalypse, there is rarely a silver lining. Decent people become murderous savages. The strong bully the weak. People take advantage and abandon others for another day of survival.
It seems I'll continue to agree to disagree with you. I'm on your side when it comes to lack of quality writing, but I'll always refuse to believe there was some slight or insensitivity towards a group of people, regardless of race, religion, sexual preference, creed, or disabilities.
What? Why would I only care about Sarah if she had machine guns, had no disabilities and killed lots of zombies? I made no implication of that. I actually liked Sarah and saved her/encouraged her the whole way through right up until she has the deck collapse on her.
I'm also not defending the offscreen deaths at all. In fact, I've mentioned repeatedly in this thread alone that I was against the way their deaths were handled.
It's polite because Greg reacted to their character. A good reaction, a bad reaction, it's all a reaction. An artist rarely defends or explains their work, instead leaving it up to your own interpretation or your own experience. It's polite not to chastise the host simply for having an opinion.
So...you would've cared for Sarah only if she had machine guns and killed a lot of zombies and did not have any disabilities.
Got it....
… more
Also, yes it is realistic to see offscreen deaths in real life ,but this is a story,if every character back in Season one had one moment of redemption, I don't see why would they suddenly decide to kill off characters with good potential without any reactions of the characters in the game, and without any lines to show that we cared about them.
And how is "polite" to listen to somebody bashing a character that company created...
So that gives them the excuse to kill one of the most developed characters off-screen? You are so blinded by your fandom that you refuse to see even see the good points the OP raises, if you're honestly think there is nothing wrong with Season 2 then you're just fooling yourself.
Yeah Yeah, just give everyone a super epic death, which makes you crying rivers. Its a goddamn apocalypse and death fitted perfectly to him.… more Dying while doing a stupid thing. Seriously instead of crying about every shit, enjoy the game or simply stop buying/playing it, nobody forced you. And dont even dare calling raging s*** like that, constructive critisicm. Its not!
Depending on how long did you spent on hubs, the episode's length is the same as the other episodes...
good hubs
They were, but not the ones where you can have a conversation where you pick what you want to talk about, also 2 useless hubs where the game forces you Just.To.Go.Forward. (Kenny's tent and Jane's bench)
better puzzles
Puzzles? What like...when Clem & Jane just put the corpse on the horn...that's the only one I can think of...
lots of character devlopment with Jane
Who,later on, leaves and making it all pointless because we will never see her again, like Molly.
More character devlopment with Clementine
Ahh yes...showing how an 11 year old stays the same despite all adults around her losing their limits and bark at one another,(copy-pasting now) was expecting Clem to snap at the others cursing at them like she was swearing in EP1 and EP2 has stopped. (only called Kenny an asshole, not enough)
Character equalization
..It ALL says on the OP up there about equality...
Sad deaths
...that were ignored seconds later and forgotten forever by the characters in the game...even though the game has to have a realistic touch, it does not.
@TeamSarah (btw good username) can you tell us something positive that made all of our choices worth it in the latest episode?
Yes i… more can good sir, as i said im not dwelling on the negitives but i can surely tell you some postives of Episode 4. Good length, good hubs, better puzzles, lots of character devlopment with Jane, More character devlopment with Clementine (finally), Character equalization, Sad deaths, Moral choices, Luke finally isnt perfect, and etc. And for choices i agree they lacked value, but who knows in episode 5 a couple could come into effect.
-All right, for a second there I thought you were one of those who wanted Sarah to not show any weaknesses.
-Now here's the funny thing,Scott (voice of Luke) in one of the Playing Dead episodes actually disagreed about Greg's description of Sarah's character (Greg called her tiny ugly Betty)...I mean...I was expecting the employees to actually defend their character...
I mean If a voice actor can do it, why not them...right?
What? Why would I only care about Sarah if she had machine guns, had no disabilities and killed lots of zombies? I made no implication of th… moreat. I actually liked Sarah and saved her/encouraged her the whole way through right up until she has the deck collapse on her.
I'm also not defending the offscreen deaths at all. In fact, I've mentioned repeatedly in this thread alone that I was against the way their deaths were handled.
It's polite because Greg reacted to their character. A good reaction, a bad reaction, it's all a reaction. An artist rarely defends or explains their work, instead leaving it up to your own interpretation or your own experience. It's polite not to chastise the host simply for having an opinion.
You could be nitpicky about anything, i honestly dont care about what anyone else thinks. I think the episode was amazing for all those reasons.
Who,later on, leaves and making it all pointless because we will never see her again, like Molly.
But its The Walking Dead, you get character development with Glenn and then he leaves, tons of characters get development and leave or die. Also who knows, she may return.
.that were ignored seconds later and forgotten forever by the characters in the game...even though the game has to have a realistic touch, it does not.
They didnt have time to dwell over deaths, if they did that on the deck Rebecca would have stopped pushing at the baby wouldve died. I agree Nicks was stupid though.
Ahh yes...showing how an 11 year old stays the same despite all adults around her losing their limits and bark at one another,(copy-pasting now) was expecting Clem to snap at the others cursing at them like she was swearing in EP1 and EP2 has stopped. (only called Kenny an asshole, not enough)
What about when Clementine talks to Jane on there walk about her and Sandra, her always wanting a sister she has character development there too.
Depending on how long did you spent on hubs, the episode's length is the same as the other episodes...
Not true, at least in my case i spent just as long as i did in previous episodes and episode 4 for me was 10 - 15 minutes longer.
Puzzles? What like...when Clem & Jane just put the corpse on the horn...that's the only one I can think of.
At Least its an improvement from episode 2's 'wind turbine' the car puzzle actually took me 5 minutes and i watched several LP were the players were dumbfounded as well. Reason being? We forget Walkers are sometimes useful.
Let's face it...this episode's not great.
You're acting like thats a fact, its not. This episode for ME was the best in Season 2 and i believe i just explained why. I wont get into a debate about it, you can feel how you want about episode 4 and i respect that.
I'm gonna sound nit-picky, oh welp...
Good length
Depending on how long did you spent on hubs, the episode's length is the sam… moree as the other episodes...
good hubs
They were, but not the ones where you can have a conversation where you pick what you want to talk about, also 2 useless hubs where the game forces you Just.To.Go.Forward. (Kenny's tent and Jane's bench)
better puzzles
Puzzles? What like...when Clem & Jane just put the corpse on the horn...that's the only one I can think of...
lots of character devlopment with Jane
Who,later on, leaves and making it all pointless because we will never see her again, like Molly.
More character devlopment with Clementine
Ahh yes...showing how an 11 year old stays the same despite all adults around her losing their limits and bark at one another,(copy-pasting now) was expecting Clem to snap at the others cursing at them like she … [view original content]
Thats the whole problem. Whether you see Sarah as a complex character or not is purely subjective, was she an interesting character? Yes. But i think you just expected too much of her and wanted her to become something she just COULDN'T be, you're looking at it from the perspective that is was pointless to dwelve into Sarah's character just to kill her off while she was doing something stupid. But that was the whole point with her character, her fathers "CEASE TO FUNCTION" was not thrown in the game just for fun. I think her death was just inevitable and obviously Telltale agreed with me. Couldn't it just be that they wanted to show her as an tragic example from the very beginning? Just because her condition was explored doesnt mean she deserved a prolonged existence. I think you just liked the character so much that you just refuse to accept that she had to go away in that fashion when the fact is that she was gonna die sooner or later with her condition.
Sorry for this late reply/participation in this thread but i just finished the episode today, and even while i agree with most of the points in this topic, Sarah just isnt one of them.
So Telltale specifically builds Sarah up to be an interesting and complex character only for them to completely doom her no matter what, wit… moreh no further development or character arc? Why build her up like this only for everyone to end up "wishing that she were more than she turned out to be"?
Ok, so Clem has a few dialogue options that aren't horrifically disrespectful and belittling. That is not up to par with the interactions with her we had been building up to prior to this.
Sorry, I can see where you're coming from, but I just do not agree. There's a difference between a character being meant to symbolize the futility/hopelessness of a situation, and then there's just complete laziness.
you're looking at it from the perspective that is was pointless to dwelve into Sarah's character just to kill her off ...Couldn't it just be that they wanted to show her as an tragic example from the very beginning?
If this was Telltale's intention, how does the writing lead up to that point? When is it ever mentioned that Sarah's death was tragic? Where is it mentioned that she was hopeless from the beginning outside of episode 4? When does anyone mourn her or even acknowledge her death in passing? What evidence do we have to prove that she had given up on life, or was a hopeless cause? The writing never points out any of these things. If this was truly her purpose, it would have been a cop-out & waste of her character anyway, but the writing isn't even clear on those points, so her death is completely senseless.
I think you just liked the character so much that you just refuse to accept that she had to go away in that fashion when the fact is that she was gonna die sooner or later with her condition.
I am not mad that she died. I keep saying this over and over, and it goes for pretty much everyone who's died in the game so far. I was completely prepared for them to die. As they all love to say, This is the Walking Dead game. What I was not prepared for was for them to die in railroaded, lazy, emotionless ways.
Why would Telltale build up this complicated character around which multiple decisions are based, and who is portrayed from the beginning with sympathy and depth, only to throw it away? If Sarah's death was meant to be emotional or hard-hitting or reflective of futility and the loss of innocence or whatever, why are these themes never brought up in the writing? This episode was a total waste of Telltale's characters. Like I keep saying, if their deaths had been purposeful, emotional, and consistent with their characters, you wouldn't see me arguing right now.
Thats the whole problem. Whether you see Sarah as a complex character or not is purely subjective, was she an interesting character? Yes. Bu… moret i think you just expected too much of her and wanted her to become something she just COULDN'T be, you're looking at it from the perspective that is was pointless to dwelve into Sarah's character just to kill her off while she was doing something stupid. But that was the whole point with her character, her fathers "CEASE TO FUNCTION" was not thrown in the game just for fun. I think her death was just inevitable and obviously Telltale agreed with me. Couldn't it just be that they wanted to show her as an tragic example from the very beginning? Just because her condition was explored doesnt mean she deserved a prolonged existence. I think you just liked the character so much that you just refuse to accept that she had to go away in that fashion when the fact is that she was gonna die sooner or later with … [view original content]
They went a realistic route. CEASE TO FUNCTION may be a meme at this point, but it's basically correct. I agree that the direction seemed of… moref, but the same could be said for Nick. In general, I've found this season to be more aimless. I think that's a flaw with the writing, but I don't think it has anything to do with being against disabled people. Everyone suffers the same in the universe of the walking dead.
While i dont agree with some of your critisism (some of it just seems too much like nitpicking) but i completely agree with these points and… more think they're spot on and prolly couldnt have said it better myself: (Sorry for quoting)
Then suddenly in episode 2, everyone suddenly treats Clementine as if they skipped all that, calling her "Clem" and completely erasing the struggle to earn trust which had previously been a big theme of the season.
Rebecca suddenly changes her mind and forgets that she "knew Clementine was going to be a problem", and completely forgets that she could have been BLACKMAILED earlier by Clementine. Everyone treats Clem like a harmless little girl, acting as if none of this happened when they had been completely hostile only a few days before. It's fine that the cabin group changes their minds, but we are never shown what made that change, so it loses all effectiveness.
Nick changes from being complete… [view original content]
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And they shouldnt. Responding to such nonsense just gives them attention, where they deserve none.
Oh no, I mean I definitely am going to play it, i did buy the season pass. I just meant I'm not excited about it at all.
Telltale's mantra is "the fan feedback counts" and "we listen to our fans" etc etc. They're the ones who are looking bad by not answering.
A social issue that manifested out of thin air, helmed by tumblr is hardly fan feedback.
There are reasons why people are upset. It's not based on nothing. We've been discussing that here for 27 pages.
It'd be smart to make some kind of response, but as far as the people flaming them on Facebook; how many actually played the game and are complaining about it? And how many just saw that their facebook or Tumblr friend made a post about an issue and are just joining in to dogpile on Telltale?
Tumblr...? Really?
Why not 4chan or Twitter or Youtube or reddit? But tumblr's blamed for having opinions?
I guess nobody else is criticizing the "best episode of the season".
Actually, I agreed with your original post and thumb up'd this thread. The topic since then has obviously changed a lot over the 27 pages. People are upset over comments made by someone who doesn't even WORK at telltale. You just can't please some people, and they're driven to be angry over anything.
? But it is a rally from tumblr. They even have a thread on the forums with a direct link to the tumblr page. I'm not being malicious when I say it.
The problems I mentioned in my original post are only made worse by Telltale's silence. And just because the issue is being talked about on tumblr doesn't mean it's automatically invalid. If you hadn't known the posts about Sarah had been made on Tumblr would you have taken them more seriously? After tumblr got involved in this thread a bunch of ppl kept showing up like "I used to agree with you but now I don't anymore because they're talking about it on tumblr". It's hypocritical.
I think I should start to read about this.I hope I make a good decision.
I don't want to sound like a prick but I would say: The more people complains, the better . It's past time Telltale realizes episode 4 was a mess.
Whether they played it or not the video's right there for them to see. The issues in the writing this episode were already criticized before the interview, it's just worse now from Telltale's reaction. Instead of addressing the fans' concerns with how the episode turned out, they ignored them and now this interview only confirms what everyone had suspected.
edit: to say nothing of this whole "fan feedback counts". Telltale can't even pretend that that's true anymore now.
I found the deaths of Sarah and Nick both disappointing, but in no way saw how that connected to being biased against people with possible disabilities, or even worse, demonstrating that they should be killed. I actually disagreed with this line of thought before seeing the tumblr thread, and it didn't impact my judgement at all. I still entirely disagree with it, and disagree with lumping the company alongside Greg Miller simply because they were polite and let Greg voice his opinion on his own show.
Lately I've seen a lot of complaints here how tumblr users (are the "only" ones) are linked to this over-exaggerations about Telltale...
I'm sick of 'em.
The thing is, the writing this episode was problematic not just because it was lazy, but because it actively justified those saying "Sarah is useless/a liability and should die". It was a bad move of Telltale to cater to that crowd not just because we're offended, but because it's unsatisfying and contrary to their previous writing. Sarah was a very involved and developed character in the story, but now she's suddenly treated as completely unimportant. Her death served no purpose to the plot; she was unmourned and pointlessly killed off. It's offensive because the idea that somebody should die simply because they weren't "meant" to make it is a very harmful and common cliche. It's bad writing because it's extremely unsatisfying and nonsensical.
This is too users who are only thinking of the negitives, this is not directed to everyone here since many of you think Season 2 is great but could be better (like me)
I think that complaning about it right NOW is not doing much, now its just become dwelling. I read some of this and you have a ton of good facts and reasons to feel this way. I agree Season 2 is not as good, but only pointing out negitive things helps... nothing. Now im not talking about the creator of this thread because they have a clear, good mind and point of some postives. talking about the users replying. Giving critisim right after an episode ends is great, its the reason Telltale makes episodic games. Now Episode 4 came out 3 weeks ago and when i come on here tons of users are just dwelling on the negitives. When you only view the negitives of Season 2 it makes you like it a lot less. So if you are only thinking of the negitives then in the end it is just making the exprience worse for you.
Take a look at the facebook page. Look at the comment section to the accolades trailer of episode 4. If ppl on Youtube know that this wasn't their strongest episode, you know something's wrong.
If they aren't buying the games or playing them at all, they're not fans which is what I was accounting. In other words, every user on their facebook page flaming them for this != a loyal fan disappointed who'll no longer buy their next game. It means there were a fair number of people who played the game, then brought up the issue in places where people who haven't played the game can see it, so they can join them in trying to get a response out of the issue.
I could use the term "vocal minority", but the term annoys me since if you're discussing a game heavily on an internet forum, you're already a vocal minority comapred to the silent majority who just plays the game and never discuss it at all.
Edit: Also, unfortunately, Telltale's been bad about communication for a while now.
I don't why ,all of the sudden, is this phase going on here...
"Valid opinions & critiques about this episode...oh...wut is this...tumblr has the same opinions & critiques! Disliked and ignored."
Can someone explain this? Or is it because ppl decided to check out the unpopular/recent section of tumblr?
Ok I see what you mean. But I really don't think the fan feedback shouldn't count anymore just because people who aren't fans are getting involved and upset about this. If anything, it should make what we're saying count more.
They went a realistic route. CEASE TO FUNCTION may be a meme at this point, but it's basically correct. I agree that the direction seemed off, but the same could be said for Nick. In general, I've found this season to be more aimless. I think that's a flaw with the writing, but I don't think it has anything to do with being against disabled people. Everyone suffers the same in the universe of the walking dead.
I get what you're saying but I think the more we talk about it the more of a chance there will be for Telltale to pay attention. They need to notice so they can improve, I'm not just trying to complain for the sake of complaining. Keeping the discussion alive isn't going to hurt anybody, and if anything it might actually help.
@TeamSarah (btw good username) can you tell us something positive that made all of our choices worth it in the latest episode?
this has been said before too so sorry but I'm going to copy paste again
Telltale specifically builds Sarah up to be an involved and complex character only for them to completely doom her no matter what, with no further development or character arc. Why build her up like this only for everyone to end up "wishing that she were more than she turned out to be"?
Just because what happened to her was a logical result of events in the episode does not excuse the writing itself. It does not excuse the fact that the episode was written in a way that erased all prior duality or complexity to her character.
The writing is very obviously focused on the viewpoint that Sarah is a burden, clueless, and hopelessly dependent. The most sympathy her character receives is from Jane and Luke and even then she is only used as a crutch to reveal weak insight on their characters.
Sarah was the personification of hope for fans who are continually denied fair and honest representation in media, and Telltale recieved high praise that she was created to be a complex and sympathetic character. Only for them to completely turn around and write her off without sympathy or player choice in the matter. Killing her served no purpose to the story, it did not illustrate any themes or connections to the plot. The only possible theme that people interpret it to represent -futility or hopelessness in the world- comes as a result of the shoddy writing, not as a theme that was built up to.
Playing Dead tomorrow...
Can't wai- Oh who am I kidding? Greg is gonna bash voice actors of Clem and Kenny (they are the quests).
Yes i can good sir, as i said im not dwelling on the negitives but i can surely tell you some postives of Episode 4. Good length, good hubs, better puzzles, lots of character devlopment with Jane, More character devlopment with Clementine (finally), Character equalization, Sad deaths, Moral choices, Luke finally isnt perfect, and etc. And for choices i agree they lacked value, but who knows in episode 5 a couple could come into effect.
If you're looking for representation in the walking dead, you're barking up the wrong tree. As one who suffers from depression, I can sympathize in my own way, but in the apocalypse, there is rarely a silver lining. Decent people become murderous savages. The strong bully the weak. People take advantage and abandon others for another day of survival.
It seems I'll continue to agree to disagree with you. I'm on your side when it comes to lack of quality writing, but I'll always refuse to believe there was some slight or insensitivity towards a group of people, regardless of race, religion, sexual preference, creed, or disabilities.
TWDG had previously been well known and praised for an inclusive and dynamic cast of diverse characters. It was also a refreshing change from the run of the mill doom & gloom apocalypse stories because even though it was just as dark and just as tragic and everybody died, in the end the story was about hope. It was about the value of life, holding onto humanity and the struggle between survival and morals. This season the cast became even more diverse, it seemed to be starting out as such an improvement but now the story has taken a nosedive and all those characters are gone forever, potential wasted. For the story to completely twist everything the Walking Dead Game was all about in the space of one episode is just weird.
While i dont agree with some of your critisism (some of it just seems too much like nitpicking) but i completely agree with these points and think they're spot on and prolly couldnt have said it better myself: (Sorry for quoting)
I can live with Sarah's fate, to me her death was always inevitable. But Telltale's way of concluding Nick's story PISSED me of more than anything else, all that EP1-EP2 development with Pete just seemed to be pointless, why have Pete take so much keen on his survival to just kill him off screen like any other unimportant character? At least Sarah died on-screen, Telltale did a piss poor job with Nick's last moments.
So...you would've cared for Sarah only if she had machine guns and killed a lot of zombies and did not have any disabilities.
Got it....
Also, yes it is realistic to see offscreen deaths in real life ,but this is a story,if every character back in Season one had one moment of redemption, I don't see why would they suddenly decide to kill off characters with good potential without any reactions of the characters in the game, and without any lines to show that we cared about them.
And how is "polite" to listen to somebody bashing a character that company created...
What? Why would I only care about Sarah if she had machine guns, had no disabilities and killed lots of zombies? I made no implication of that. I actually liked Sarah and saved her/encouraged her the whole way through right up until she has the deck collapse on her.
I'm also not defending the offscreen deaths at all. In fact, I've mentioned repeatedly in this thread alone that I was against the way their deaths were handled.
It's polite because Greg reacted to their character. A good reaction, a bad reaction, it's all a reaction. An artist rarely defends or explains their work, instead leaving it up to your own interpretation or your own experience. It's polite not to chastise the host simply for having an opinion.
So that gives them the excuse to kill one of the most developed characters off-screen? You are so blinded by your fandom that you refuse to see even see the good points the OP raises, if you're honestly think there is nothing wrong with Season 2 then you're just fooling yourself.
I'm gonna sound nit-picky, oh welp...
Depending on how long did you spent on hubs, the episode's length is the same as the other episodes...
They were, but not the ones where you can have a conversation where you pick what you want to talk about, also 2 useless hubs where the game forces you Just.To.Go.Forward. (Kenny's tent and Jane's bench)
Puzzles? What like...when Clem & Jane just put the corpse on the horn...that's the only one I can think of...
Who,later on, leaves and making it all pointless because we will never see her again, like Molly.
Ahh yes...showing how an 11 year old stays the same despite all adults around her losing their limits and bark at one another,(copy-pasting now) was expecting Clem to snap at the others cursing at them like she was swearing in EP1 and EP2 has stopped. (only called Kenny an asshole, not enough)
..It ALL says on the OP up there about equality...
...that were ignored seconds later and forgotten forever by the characters in the game...even though the game has to have a realistic touch, it does not.
Let's face it...this episode's not great.
-All right, for a second there I thought you were one of those who wanted Sarah to not show any weaknesses.
-Now here's the funny thing,Scott (voice of Luke) in one of the Playing Dead episodes actually disagreed about Greg's description of Sarah's character (Greg called her tiny ugly Betty)...I mean...I was expecting the employees to actually defend their character...
I mean If a voice actor can do it, why not them...right?
You could be nitpicky about anything, i honestly dont care about what anyone else thinks. I think the episode was amazing for all those reasons.
But its The Walking Dead, you get character development with Glenn and then he leaves, tons of characters get development and leave or die. Also who knows, she may return.
They didnt have time to dwell over deaths, if they did that on the deck Rebecca would have stopped pushing at the baby wouldve died. I agree Nicks was stupid though.
What about when Clementine talks to Jane on there walk about her and Sandra, her always wanting a sister she has character development there too.
Not true, at least in my case i spent just as long as i did in previous episodes and episode 4 for me was 10 - 15 minutes longer.
At Least its an improvement from episode 2's 'wind turbine' the car puzzle actually took me 5 minutes and i watched several LP were the players were dumbfounded as well. Reason being? We forget Walkers are sometimes useful.
You're acting like thats a fact, its not. This episode for ME was the best in Season 2 and i believe i just explained why. I wont get into a debate about it, you can feel how you want about episode 4 and i respect that.
Thats the whole problem. Whether you see Sarah as a complex character or not is purely subjective, was she an interesting character? Yes. But i think you just expected too much of her and wanted her to become something she just COULDN'T be, you're looking at it from the perspective that is was pointless to dwelve into Sarah's character just to kill her off while she was doing something stupid. But that was the whole point with her character, her fathers "CEASE TO FUNCTION" was not thrown in the game just for fun. I think her death was just inevitable and obviously Telltale agreed with me. Couldn't it just be that they wanted to show her as an tragic example from the very beginning? Just because her condition was explored doesnt mean she deserved a prolonged existence. I think you just liked the character so much that you just refuse to accept that she had to go away in that fashion when the fact is that she was gonna die sooner or later with her condition.
Sorry for this late reply/participation in this thread but i just finished the episode today, and even while i agree with most of the points in this topic, Sarah just isnt one of them.
If this was Telltale's intention, how does the writing lead up to that point? When is it ever mentioned that Sarah's death was tragic? Where is it mentioned that she was hopeless from the beginning outside of episode 4? When does anyone mourn her or even acknowledge her death in passing? What evidence do we have to prove that she had given up on life, or was a hopeless cause? The writing never points out any of these things. If this was truly her purpose, it would have been a cop-out & waste of her character anyway, but the writing isn't even clear on those points, so her death is completely senseless.
I am not mad that she died. I keep saying this over and over, and it goes for pretty much everyone who's died in the game so far. I was completely prepared for them to die. As they all love to say, This is the Walking Dead game. What I was not prepared for was for them to die in railroaded, lazy, emotionless ways.
Why would Telltale build up this complicated character around which multiple decisions are based, and who is portrayed from the beginning with sympathy and depth, only to throw it away? If Sarah's death was meant to be emotional or hard-hitting or reflective of futility and the loss of innocence or whatever, why are these themes never brought up in the writing? This episode was a total waste of Telltale's characters. Like I keep saying, if their deaths had been purposeful, emotional, and consistent with their characters, you wouldn't see me arguing right now.
Realism? In fiction? Alright
Just to add on, Jane doesn't search Nick's corpse like the other walkers she found. That shows how quick they wanted to get rid of Nick.