Why Clem Should Remain Playable Character in Future Seasons
Okay, before s2e4, it was almost unanimous that Clem should be the playable character forever and always. Then, Amid the Ruins disappointed many players. (Personally, I've liked the whole of season 2, but that's beside the point). And I saw a dramatic increase in players wanting to "play from a different perspective than Clem." I think what's really going on is that you think a new playable character would allow Telltale to make new seasons better, or at least keep them from soiling Clem further by involving her in more bad seasons. If that's you, I have some points to make. (If you really just want to play from a different perspective, I dunno what to tell you. I'm not even sure what you mean by a different perspective. You mean, just, taller?)
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Let me start with the damage it could do to remove Clem as PC in Season 3:
1) Big Picture Enjoyment of the Walking Dead Game series:
I'm looking at the big picture of the game, and I'm seeing the epic story of a young person whose greatest influence was a once-murderer who died for her in the ZA. You have to admit, at least so far, that's what the series is. Is STARTING out as. Season 2 is almost over, but if you ask me, the series is just getting warmed up. It has to be. A story like "a young person whose greatest influence was a once-murder" simply cannot end where Season 2 is going to end.
S2e5 simply cannot possibly have a satisfying end to that story. First off, there hasn't been any build up to an end epic enough. Lee's story was satisfying because, in the end, it made sense. Yes, it was shocking that Lee died, but that event actually did have build up to it. We spent all of season 1 building a love between Lee and Clementine that Lee would die for. And then he did. He died for it.
Most people say they'd want Clem to live but as the sidekick she was in Season 1 (which is another reason I think people just want a new PC because they think a return to the old formula would mean a return to the old quality). But whether Telltale ended her story by killing her or not, the story of a young person whose greatest influence was a once-murderer would be over. And there hasn't been any build up to the end of that story.
If there's been build up to anything, it's that Clem can't trust anyone in the ZA. The writers even said at one point that, in Season 2, instead of Lee figuring out who to help, we have Clementine figuring out who to trust to take care of her. From what I've seen so far, the answer to who she can trust is NO ONE. I mean, I like Kenny a lot, but I don't trust him to take care of Clem consistently. And that's the key term: consistent. Has anyone this season been the CONSISTENT protective presence for Clem? I don't think so.
So if they ended Clem's story now, the overview of the series would be something like "Wow, what a horribly sad, wonderfully inspiring tale of Lee Everett going from murderer to martyr in protecting smart, little Clementine. How exciting! Now, we get to play as Clementine and deal with losing Lee and growing up in the ZA. Oh, wait, one season with a moral about how you can't trust anyone and hardly a mention of Lee. No more Clem. Okay. Kind of a letdown."
So, while a new PC might appease players who were disappointed in s2e4, it would detract from the big-picture enjoyability of the series.
2) Clementine's Character Arc
Telltale is in fact not just writing a game where we get to run around making dark choices. I think it's apparent from Season 1 that they have an actual story in mind, with actual character arcs and actual themes to play out.
One of the things that made Lee's story so great is that he had such a great character arc. No matter what happened in the middle, Lee went from being a murder to a savior. We first see Lee in the back of a police car on his way to prison. I mean, he must have thought his life was over. He'd live a long, dull life in prison regretting what he'd done, and he'd die alone in a cell. It seemed there was no hope. But it turned out, no. He lived a short, exciting life teaching and protecting an orphan girl, and he died for someone he loved. There was hope. He loved Clementine. He was redeemed. Lee's story has a definite trio of inspiring themes: hope, love, and redemption.
What are the themes in Clementine's story? What's her arc?
So far the themes are trust, or lack thereof, and perhaps survival. And her arc appears to be going from a young girl who trusts to one who doesn't. There's nothing inspiring about any of that. It's all really anticlimactic and depressing. And that's why Clem's story has to go on. It has to be as meaningful as Lee's was. As sad as Lee's death was, it was also beautiful. Clem's end should also be beautiful. Don't you think?
Telltale could end Clem's story exactly how they ended Lee's and have her die the ultimate heroic death, and that could work quite well. But not in s2e5. For example, Clem could die for Rebecca's baby, and that would be very heroic, but it wouldn't be satisfying because there hasn't been any build up to it. Clem has no relationship with Rebecca's baby. If she died for it, it would mean Clem is a good person, but that's all it would mean. Lee's death was so amazing because it had so many layers of meaning. Hope, love, redemption, as I said before.
If, on the other hand, Telltale ended Clem's story by just changing PCs...Maybe it's just me, but I feel like that would be even more unsatisfying, because it robs Clementine of that ultimate heroic death. It wouldn't even mean she was a good person. It would just mean she's not the PC anymore.
At this point, there's no way Clementine's character arc could seem inspiring or satisfying by the end of Season 2.
3) New Character Attachability
Telltale used some pretty amazingly intricate tricks to get us as attached to Lee and Clementine.
I mean, it helps that, for a good long while, Telltale kept it completely uncertain whether Lee actually did commit a crime. The first line in the game is, "Well, I guess you didn't do it then." I, personally, was convinced he didn't do it, whatever "it" was. So I had nothing against him when he found Clementine and took her under his wing without a second thought. His selflessness there got him major points with me.
So, by the time we find out he did do it, we're already in love with him for being so selfless, not just to Clementine, but also to Shawn/Duck/Lilly/Larry/anyone else he'd been kind to at that point. And at the same time we find out he did do it, we find out why he did it. And it was a sympathetic motive. He killed the guy who was cheating with his wife. That doesn't make it okay, but it makes it relatable. Lee was both flawed and sympathetic. Perfect combo!
All this within the first half of episode one. And boom, you're attached to Lee.
You become attached to Clementine because she's so smart and innocent and kind and protect-able (there are numerous examples I am too lazy to write). However, you're also attached to her because of her powerful connection to Lee. Not to mention, she has time on her side. All of season 1 and 2 get you attached to Clem.
Now. If Telltale were to introduce a new PC, or even use an existing character, they'd have to come up with even more pretty amazingly intricate tricks to get us attached to them. I'm not very attached to any of the present characters, besides Clem. So at least, for people like me (who Telltale doesn't want to lose), these tricks would be essential to get us to play the game. And tricks like those take some serious thinkerbox power.
So basically, I'm not saying they should keep Clementine as PC because no one else could possibly be PC. I'm saying they should keep Clementine as PC because her story isn't complete/meaningful yet. And Telltale could use all available thinkerbox power to get us attached to a new PC. Or they could use all available thinkerbox power to complete Clementine's story and make it just as meaningful as Lee's. Seems like an easy choice to me.
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Now, let's talk about all the great ways Clem's story could continue if she remains PC:
1) Dealing with Lee's Death
I'd like to see Clem deal with Lee's death. I suppose she did deal with it in some way in the last two years, but I want to SEE it. And although two years were skipped to make Clem older, bigger, wiser, more capable, etc., we still have the opportunity to see her deal with Lee's death. She may have already dealt with losing her best friend, but did she deal with losing the final person on Earth she'll ever be able to trust? If Season 2 goes like I think it will, she'll end up feeling betrayed by everyone in her current group. And this could lead to her thinking more and more about Lee. I hope so.
2) Finding Her Purpose in the ZA
Clem looks like she's going to live a good long while, zombie apocalypse or no. At some point, she's got to become bored with just surviving. She'll want a purpose. I like to think she'd want to be a teacher because that's what Lee was. But she'd have to work out how to be a teacher in the ZA. I can see the seasons going: Season 2 - Trust, Season 3 - Guilt, Season 4 - Purpose, Season 5 - Heroism/Love/Sacrifice. And there's endless possibilities in between. Maybe Clem would go dark/selfish before going light/heroic. That would be interesting.
3) Clem Becoming a Hero
I'd like to think, eventually, she'll follow more and more solidly in Lee's footsteps. Believe it or not, characters can have solid patterns of behavior and still be the PC. The writers are not supposed to give you the option of all possible actions, but the option for any action the character in question would take.
For example, when Lee crashed and shot the police officer, he saw Clem and called out for help. When my mom played that part, she didn't want to call out for help. She wanted to take the opportunity to have Lee flee custody, and she was frustrated that wasn't an option. But of course it wasn't an option. Lee wouldn't have done that.
For an example involving Clem, when Carver orders Carlos to hit Sarah, I chose to say, "It was my fault!" But you'll notice, there is no option to say, "Yes, do it. She's annoying." Because Clem wouldn't have said that. It would have been out of character. But at the same time, I wanted to tell Carver to hit me instead of Sarah, but there was no option to say that. So obviously, Clem isn't a full-blown hero yet, which is fine. Especially since I'd like to see her journey toward becoming that full-blown hero. I want a scene in a future season where something similar happens and Clem offers to take the hit for someone else.
So, those are my arguments for keeping Clem as PC. I'll edit and add as I see fit. 
TL;DR: Clem needs to remain PC until her story, character arc, and themes are as complete and inspiring as Lee's were.
Comments
Clem NEEDS to be protaginist in Season 3.
and if they kill her off in episode 5.... shes Clementine, she can never ever die.
also if they make a new PC then they have to go back to day 1 and give some back story i don't want to go back to day 1 i want to keep playing as clementine
Unless she dies in episode 5 (holds laughter Yeah right...) i can guarantee you, she's going to be the protagonist of Season 3.
And if she's not...Well fuck me. (Not literally.)
If she's protagonist for season 3 I can live with that, but season 3 should be her final season.
It would make Clementine's choices in Season 2 have a chance to impact Season 3.
At this point...
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. That's true. Backstory is good in small doses, but it slows down the story, especially in big doses. Clem's story has some good speed at this point. I don't want to switch to a slower story.
I agree. That's another aspect I forgot to mention in "big picture" enjoyment. With Clem, we have the opportunity to make choices that have repercussions throughout multiple seasons, which is a very exciting idea. A new PC would take that away from us.
Surprisingly, future episodes with Clementine can bring back characters from her past who's fate has been untold - hint - Lilly.
Clementine is the walking dead.The game is about the metamorphosis of a little girl during the zombie apocalypse.We can follow Clementine's life.Its interesting seeing the little cute girl changing
why do Clem fans have to be so childish when I say something against her >_>
I approve Clem as protagonist for S3.
Probably because you don't provide logical points about why ending Clem's story could be considered good storytelling.
Also having NPCs from Season 1 and Season 2 would make it allot easier for past decisions to have impacts.
Well written, and i agree 100% with you.
The Walking Dead Game without Clementine is the same as The Walking Dead Show/Comics without Rick and Carl. Both Rick and Carl have been the main characters since the first episode, the same has Clementine. I don't really see the points in killing Clementine and then make a person we don't know the protagonist. Since the game started out with Lee on the way to prison, then the officer doesn't keep an eye out of the road, and then he finds Clem. Clem has been in the game in every episode, and is the maincharacter. In the previous episodes, Clem learned alot of things from her friends (Survival skills by Jane, Shoot a gun by Lee etc) and there would be no point in letting Clem learn some survival skills in episode 4 and then kill her of in episode 5. She's a strong survivor and she'll learn more to help her survive, since there's so many more possibilities for her. If we have to play as another person than Clem, then it has to be in a DLC.
ForClementine!
Wow I agree so, so much! Great post! Clem's story needs to be meaningful!
So I'm guessing you think Clem's on the hero's journey right now (which you've seemed to reference)? You know, this? Or, more succinctly, something similar to this?
I also like this one. It's difficult to say where she is right now on those charts; there could be lots of interpretations (and there are lots more diagrams that are different too). I could go on and on trying to interpret them, but I won't. She may have even gone full circle with that second one and is coming around again (or we may have gone full circle with Lee, and are coming around again with Clem.) Generally though with the pic visible here, I think Lee's death represents the "abyss" and right now Clem is stuck in "Transformation." No matter how you see it, right now post 204, she certainly isn't at the end of any cycle. It could be resolved by the end of 205, and to an extent it will be. But there's definitely more that can be added to it.
Perhaps that's why a lot of people are tired of this season, like when they say it seems like there's "no purpose," and Clem's main thing is to just survive. She could just be stuck at one point in the cycle, never quite getting to "atonement," for example.
In season 3, I'm guessing she'll be having the baby-turned-possibly-3-or-4-year-old look up to her so hopefully that'll add to her development. Maybe.
I've got just 1 reaction after reading your thread
Already told you many times not going to say it again.
Right, some variation of those pictures. Lee's death being the abyss and Clem being in stuck in transformation right now makes sense. But, I must admit, I only have a shallow understanding of these diagrams, and isn't the whole journey a transformation? So the transformation is like a journey within a journey, and who knows how many journeys might be inside THAT journey. So Clem might be in more of an independence journey right now, with no one she can trust, but overall, she's in the Hero's journey, with being a good person as the ultimate goal. Lol, I don't really understand the terms I'm using right now, but hopefully you understand what I mean.
That's another good point I didn't think of. All the skills Clementine has learned would seem pointless if she wasn't the PC anymore.
Lol thanks!
Ooh, right! That's a good argument to keep some people from this season around, just like its a good reason they brought back Kenny from last season.
Very good and well written thread. I agree with everything you said. Clem obviously needs to be the PC of Season3. That goes without saying.
Let's discuss about something differently. Would it be smart for Telltale to make Kenny die in Season 2? In my opinion, the answer is no. As you have pointed out, Lee's character arc was complete and the same could have been said for Kenny. He could have been dead saving Christa's live/or trying to save Ben and everybody would have been satisfied with it. He was redeemed. I am very happy that he is still alive, but i would be very disappointed if his character arc ends without a meaning to it. So far, Season 2 has been copying Kenny's Season 1 character arc quite a bit. He lost his loved once, got upset about it and found new hope, by approaching a new goal (finding a boat/protecting the baby). It would be very disappointing if Kenny dies " again " in Season 2, by trying to save someone else, to redeem himself.
TeenagedClementineForSeason3
ForClementine
it's not that i was disappointed by episode 4 (i like episode 4) and now i think i don't want clementine to be in more bad seasons, i just think 4 episodes is enough to confirm that playing a child character has so many limitations that it is a detriment to the storytelling potential of the game, and because the story can't be time skipped into clementines adulthood because it would exceed the time of the comics, a new character is the only way to get back to being an adult character again.
a few examples of the limitations of playing a child character (just in case your love of clementine isn't allowing you to see any flaws in a child protagonist) are her being treated as an adult and having a large influence on the decisions of the group, is just unbelievable, she would never be treated as a leader or a person of influence in a group of adults who have also survived years in the apocalypse, you could fix this by having a realistic representation of how a child would be treated but that would not be very enjoyable to the player to have no influence on the direction of the group, be relegated to the sidelines and be tasked with menial chores.
another limitation is romance possibilities, i am not a massive fan of romance plots and i wouldn't want a "the walking dead dating simulator" but the potential for meaningful romantic relationships always adds to the dynamics of a story, even if a romance subplot never actually happens the potential for there being one adds to the richness of a story and gives more room for the imagination of the potential impact of decisions made, you could have another child in the game and they could have a child crush for each other but urgh, this is the walking dead not disney.
another limitation is the strength of a child, a child just cannot do as many things with the environment as an adult could do, and also for melee combat you just need some strength, even size is an advantage in combat, sure you don't need to be Muscles Mcbeefcake to be effective but a lot of what clementine does with her small size and strength stretches from near unbelievable to impossible, clementine could use her agility and speed to her advantage but eventually you just need strength in combat, plus an adult would actually be faster, and a fit adult (like molly) could be more agile than a growing child, you could get around this by having clementine not being involved in zombie action, but that would be boring to the player, or she could mainly use guns, but guns aren't always applicable.
basically i love clementine as a character, but as a protagonist, it was a nice experiment but ultimately a failure due to the limitations of a child character.
I totally agree with you, I mean even if Clementine dies who will be the protagonist for the next season? Yep nobody is worthy enough to be the protagonist but Clem!
Even though I love playing as Clem, and I agree with most of your points, I would rather play as a new character in S3, and have her in a supporting role, with her personality and viewpoints changing based off your choices in S2.
clementine doesn't have to die for the protagonist to change
She can stay in the story sure but playing as her just dosnt work, shes a kid people shouldnt be treating her the way they are in the game
She'll almost certainly be the PC. I think Telltale knows that killing off Clementine or just switching the PC would be a pretty disastrous move. I for one would lose a large amount of interest if Clem is no longer featured as the main character. Her story just really doesn't feel complete yet. In fact, it barely seems like it's begun. She has far more potential than every other character, and having anyone but her as the PC would be wasting such a well-written and designed character.
Let's be honest... Telltale would most likely earn the most money by making Clementine the protagonist of Season 3 seeing as she has such a huge number of fans, and hell, I can't complain with that. Everybody wins. #HailCorporate
except people who like a believable well told story, i think people just like the concept of clementine being the protagonist, and don't actually critically look at the story, if they did they would realise how flawed it really is to have a child protagonist in an adult game
Ah, I see. That's a probably what some people mean by "a different perspective."
I don't see a problem with how anyone treats her. Some people treat her like a kid, and others don't. Carlos, for instance, treats her like a kid all the time, probably because his daughter acts like a kid and he sees a bit of his daughter in Clementine. The people who don't treat her like a kid probably do so because, on some level, they are aware of the fact that Chuck stated: in the apocalypse, there is only Alive and Dead, no little, old, girl, boy, etc.
And the people who don't treat her like a kid probably give weight to her words because she's so smart and mature and competent. That's just part of who she is. Even in today's world, even if someone is very short or young, if they consistently act a certain way, that's how people end up seeing them. The writers have said that they knew a problem for Clementine to overcome would be that, unlike Lee, she wouldn't have as much influence on the group, because some people would see her as a kid. Seeing as it seemed to be a worse problem earlier on in the season, I would say she somewhat has overcome that problem within her current group merely by consistently acting smart, mature, and competent.
I don't see the lack of romance as a problem. Romance is just not one of the essentials I need to enjoy a show/game, especially not TWDG. In the walking dead, any romantic interest will no doubt die, or otherwise leave the game, simply because there are no happy endings in TWDG. Just look at Carley, Katjaa, Omid, Sarita, Alvin, Jane, etc. I mean, if I already know how a romance is going to end, and it's going to end badly...it just doesn't hold my interest as much.
I don't see the strength thing as a problem. I don't find Clementine's feats unrealistic, because I've had real life experience as a child in gymnastics and martial arts. I wasn't very strong personally but you should have seen some of the other kids swinging around on the bars and kicking through boards. In my experience, kids can be pretty darn strong if trained and conditioned. Clementine has spent the last two years training and conditioning in the ZA,so it makes sense to me that she's strong.
But I realize that maybe other people want the romance element and don't want to be taken out of the experience of the game by having to wonder how realistic certain elements are. So it's mostly a matter of opinion.
Oh, so the comics and novels don't exist then?
oh.. and I guess 400 days aswell...
You're right. Kenny's story also doesn't feel complete yet. It would be a mistake to end it as it stands right now. I feel like Kenny never really came to terms with his family's death. It's like, ever since they died, he hasn't been trying to work throughout his grief over losing them. Rather, he's been trying to replace them with Sarita, Clementine, and the baby. I think he needs to at least come to terms with his family's death before he dies himself.
In season 3 you should be able to choose who you play, each have different perspectives, but all follow the story line. Who agrees? Sort of like 400 days.
i want her too as the main protagonist in season 3 and i'm hoping they would improve the season 3 than season 2 coz , yeah season 2 was ok to me but it was too kinda short less exploration unlike the season 1 and more characters.. and they should lessen killing off the good characters who which the(positive)choices we make is not wasted... and i hope i could see molly again i miss her... and btw it sucks coz after season 2 episode 5 no DLC like in season 1 they had 400 days like that
I can see where you're coming from, and you've written out your opinion well. But since the start of season 2, I've enjoyed playing as Clementine because of the limitations. Yes, playing as an adult was cool in season 1; you were at least co-leader of the group and defeating zombies was an act of will.
But as Clem, I've enjoyed playing as someone forced to take a more clever, nuanced approach to the ZA. Clem's spirit is willing, but the flesh, it can barely take down one zombie at a time like Lee could. So she must be clever; Jane's tricks and tips would be nice to know as Lee, but are life and death for Clem, for example. And as to the more nuanced approach, where most of Lee's effects were more direct (nothing wrong with that), Clem's appeal to Walter determining Nick's fate was well done in my opinion. It felt natural, how someone who can't physically save as many people on her own can still have a definite impact.
But you do have valid points. In my humble opinion, while Telltale has done a pretty consistent job of Clem interacting with her world from her perspective, TTG has struggled this season to have the NPCs consistently interact with her. I made an example of Carlos in episode 2 somewhere back in the dusts of time in some thread (
) about how his interactions with Clem gave me narrative whiplash.
Without specifically listing the flip flops, Carlos through some narrative reasons or another treats Clem like a capable babysitter, then as a little girl that needs protecting, then as a capable individual...the narrative had reasons for each, but it was still disorienting. And I have a similar stance on other characters like Luke throughout the season. Playing as Lee, I developed a pretty good feel for how characters would react to my choices; less so for this season so far.
And yes, like the OP mentioned, purpose for Clem has been a struggle this season (not a failure by any means, but not nearly complete like S1 either). But I have high hopes that if TTG does choose to bring back Clem and the baby (I see both surviving the finale for many of the reasons listed in other posts here), having Clem as the PC raising Rebecca's son invites tons of potential for continuing her arc in a familiar way to Lee's heroes journey while at the same time keeping it very fresh.
I enjoy the discussion in well written, well though out threads like this. Cheers.
TLDR: While Season 2 has had its highs and lows in terms of narrative and quality, I see some of the "limitations" as strengths.
i actually feel that this is a part of the storytelling that has failed, this is what i expected when telltale announced that clementine would be the protagonist, but basically by the end of episode one we were supposed to feel like clementine was a badass and for some reason everybody else did too, i feel like except for the odd comment an adult could have taken clementines place (as protagonist) and it wouldn't have changed the story at all.
there was no proving herself or any kind of arc of the story that could show why everybody just treats clementie like an adult while relying on her to do everything and giving her a large influence on what the group does, the approach telltale has taken has just been just to occasionally mention she is a child but when it is actually a problem that would have taken a clever and nuanced approach to have a child be involved with the story, they just ignore it and she is just treated like an adult, so in my opinion not only does the story give the feeling like clementine is being put in unbelievable situations and being treated like an adult, we are also missing out on what could have been very interesting struggles of her being treated like a child.
also i don't think rebecca's son will survive episode 5, but if he does he most definitely won't be raised, he will be a baby, and at the very most (if they have another time skip) he would be two years old, so there isn't going to be any meaningful interactions with the baby if it survives, and that is why i think it will die, to give the climax of season 2 a big finish.
Exactly, this is why I think Kenny should either die by infection or by getting shot/bit in a non-heroic way.