Yeah, maybe those examples weren't exactly the same. But how about Kenny wanting to attack armed guards while in the truck? It could've worked, since only Bonnie, Tavia and Troy were waiting for them, but Kenny didn't know that. There could've been dozens for all he knew, which made it incredibly stupid. Anyways, it's not like Bonnie's the only one who made a stupid call before.
...Eh, at least Bonnie wasn't as stupid in the scenario where you help Luke instead of cover him.
Well Lee didn't know there'd be a walker and Omid didn't assume there'd be a girl coming to rob them. It was just there carelessness to chec… morek if there was anything there that the plot demanded.
Bonnie on the other hand knew the danger, that the ice would break probably and that walkers were approaching.
I also think there's great potential for us to see Arvo again, if not as a protagonist then as an important character.
Personally, it seems out of character for him to shoot a child, even one as dangerous/competent as Clementine. But I can understand him being at an extremely low point in his life and doing something irrational - Kenny had no right to treat him the way he did.
I honestly just, if nothing else, hope to see Arvo in Season 3. I feel like there's so much that can be done with him, because he's only a t… moreeenager--he has a lot of growing up to do and obviously hasn't grown as much as Clem. There would even be an interesting morality choice that Clem had to make, whether she'd forgive him for trying to kill her just out of his anger over her 'killing' his sister, or not.
And that fucking leg brace. Never has such a minute detail bothered me so much. Where and why and how did he even get one of those?
It is out of character, considering his first encounter with her. He was startled, so he pulled the gun, but I sincerely doubt he planned on using it. But he obviously had a huge attachment to Natasha, were he to flip out like that. Not to mention, he called the others his friends so perhaps they were close, too. And he got them all killed. That mentally shut him down, most likely--I like that the voice actor was completely monotone when delivering the lines, it really added to that effect.
If anything, he stayed with a group because his injury made him completely helpless. The fastest I've seen him run is him hopping accorss the ice, and if he fell with a walker on top of him, forget it. I wonder if Clem and Arvo would ever come together.
I also think there's great potential for us to see Arvo again, if not as a protagonist then as an important character.
Personally, it see… morems out of character for him to shoot a child, even one as dangerous/competent as Clementine. But I can understand him being at an extremely low point in his life and doing something irrational - Kenny had no right to treat him the way he did.
To be honest, that bald jackass was responsible for everything - he was the one who decided to rob the group, and he was the one who started the gunfight. Makes me wonder if he was the "Kenny" of his group.
Because Jane stole his gun and threatened to kill him. So of course his group still wanted to rob them. And intent matters a lot, actually. … moreGood people can make mistakes and unintentionally hurt people. Kenny was well intentioned when he shot Jonny and got Walter killed. And actually, the Russian translation showed the group wanted only what Clem's group took from them, and nothing more, and had no intention of killing everyone.
Yeah, I think Maud even tells Buriko at one point that he was insane for deciding to rob the group in the first place. Ugh, poor Maud, she actually seemed like a pretty reasonable person. Speaking of, why does Arvo call her Natasha? I guess Maud is their surname???
"Buricko says we will take everything."
To be honest, that bald jackass was responsible for everything - he was the one who decided to rob the group, and he was the one who started the gunfight. Makes me wonder if he was the "Kenny" of his group.
Maud was the model name. Nick Breckon came up with the character's name.
It's kind of funny how female characters keep getting killed off to motivate their male relations. Sarita dies so that Kenny can become a raging mess. Nick's mother dies off-screen so that he can treat Clem like a rabid dog. Maud dies just so Arvo can snap and shoot a little girl.
Yeah, I think Maud even tells Buriko at one point that he was insane for deciding to rob the group in the first place. Ugh, poor Maud, she a… morectually seemed like a pretty reasonable person. Speaking of, why does Arvo call her Natasha? I guess Maud is their surname???
The reason why this isn't simply a case of good people doing something bad, is that they had time to come up with this plan. It was in the m… moreiddle of the night so they had to have discussed it. During this time, none of them considered, maybe they should give Kenny an ultimatum instead of simply bolting with all the supplies. It was four against one at that point with Clem on the fence based on Kenny's behavior. Then, they decided to leave Clem and AJ. Heck, even if they tried to take the baby, I might have understood a little but the willingly left them both to die considering they took all the supplies and left them with someone who they consider to be highly dangerous.
And they did this with a person they barely knew and who had lured them into a trap at the beginning of the chapter. This isn't a matter of mistakes or heat of the moment decisions. This was planned out. There is no excuse.
The reason why this isn't simply a case of good people doing something bad, is that they had time to come up with this plan. It was in the middle of the night so they had to have discussed it. During this time, none of them considered, maybe they should give Kenny an ultimatum instead of simply bolting with all the supplies. It was four against one at that point with Clem on the fence based on Kenny's behavior. Then, they decided to leave Clem and AJ. Heck, even if they tried to take the baby, I might have understood a little but the willingly left them both to die considering they took all the supplies and left them with someone who they consider to be highly dangerous.
And they did this with a person they barely knew and who had lured them into a trap at the beginning of the chapter. This isn't a matter of mistakes or heat of the moment decisions. This was planned out. There is no excuse.
But correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anything in that scene actually suggested that they were going to leave Clem behind in the first place? We see them loading up the supplies and getting the truck started, and that’s when Clem caught them. It’s entirely possible that Bonnie and Mike were planning on asking Clem to leave with them, but were waiting until they were ready to leave at a moment’s notice, in case Clem tried to rat them out to Kenny. Mike seemed completely okay with Clem coming with then when she was the one who asked them after all.
The reason why this isn't simply a case of good people doing something bad, is that they had time to come up with this plan. It was in the m… moreiddle of the night so they had to have discussed it. During this time, none of them considered, maybe they should give Kenny an ultimatum instead of simply bolting with all the supplies. It was four against one at that point with Clem on the fence based on Kenny's behavior. Then, they decided to leave Clem and AJ. Heck, even if they tried to take the baby, I might have understood a little but the willingly left them both to die considering they took all the supplies and left them with someone who they consider to be highly dangerous.
And they did this with a person they barely knew and who had lured them into a trap at the beginning of the chapter. This isn't a matter of mistakes or heat of the moment decisions. This was planned out. There is no excuse.
It is out of character, considering his first encounter with her. He was startled, so he pulled the gun, but I sincerely doubt he planned on… more using it. But he obviously had a huge attachment to Natasha, were he to flip out like that. Not to mention, he called the others his friends so perhaps they were close, too. And he got them all killed. That mentally shut him down, most likely--I like that the voice actor was completely monotone when delivering the lines, it really added to that effect.
If anything, he stayed with a group because his injury made him completely helpless. The fastest I've seen him run is him hopping accorss the ice, and if he fell with a walker on top of him, forget it. I wonder if Clem and Arvo would ever come together.
From what I recall, Bonnie is the one who's urging Mike to leave immediately. If that is because she's afraid Clem would "rat them out", that'd be understandable but as the scene is presented it seems like they really did just plan on running off without telling anybody. And I find it really hard to like them for leaving a baby with the man they fear so much, even if it was precisely because they feared his wrath.
Can someone respond to this part of my post?
But correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anything in that scene actually suggested tha… moret they were going to leave Clem behind in the first place? We see them loading up the supplies and getting the truck started, and that’s when Clem caught them. It’s entirely possible that Bonnie and Mike were planning on asking Clem to leave with them, but were waiting until they were ready to leave at a moment’s notice, in case Clem tried to rat them out to Kenny. Mike seemed completely okay with Clem coming with then when she was the one who asked them after all.
I think you can infer that Arvo lost his entire family that day. Yet I wonder why nobody's excusing his rage the way they did for Carver 2.0.
By the way, why are people blaming him for Luke's death? How was he in any way responsible for that?
Actually, Bonnie only tells Mike that "she's got everything" when she shows up at the truck with the supplies. She doesn't tell him at any point that they have to leave immediately after Clem confronts them, so there's still nothing that explicitly suggests they were going to run off without her. I don't know if her dialogue is any different if you covered Luke instead of helping him.
And as for the baby, at least they left the baby formula with him. At least I assume they did. Why would they take it with them?
From what I recall, Bonnie is the one who's urging Mike to leave immediately. If that is because she's afraid Clem would "rat them out", th… moreat'd be understandable but as the scene is presented it seems like they really did just plan on running off without telling anybody. And I find it really hard to like them for leaving a baby with the man they fear so much, even if it was precisely because they feared his wrath.
And he proved it by walking across it himself. But then people blame him for running and infuriating Kenny, which confuses me because Arvo running has no causal link to making Luke step on a fragile spot of the lake.
I only vaguely recall the playthrough where the player didn't "help" Luke and Bonnie lashed out at Clem, so perhaps she would seem more sympathetic in another playthrough. I can appreciate her putting her trust in Mike and empathizing with Arvo, and don't forget that her experience with Carver would make her especially wary around having to follow another fledgling control-freak like Kenny.
Actually, Bonnie only tells Mike that "she's got everything" when she shows up at the truck with the supplies. She doesn't tell him at any p… moreoint that they have to leave immediately after Clem confronts them, so there's still nothing that explicitly suggests they were going to run off without her. I don't know if her dialogue is any different if you covered Luke instead of helping him.
And as for the baby, at least they left the baby formula with him. At least I assume they did. Why would they take it with them?
And he proved it by walking across it himself. But then people blame him for running and infuriating Kenny, which confuses me because Arvo running has no causal link to making Luke step on a fragile spot of the lake.
They're mad because they're willing to jump on any excuse to blame Arvo, and fully accept Kenny's racist abuse of him without question. And honestly, what other choice did they have with zombies at their heels and two cripples to worry about?
So they don't actually ask Clem at a reasonable time, instead they want to wait until the middle of the night when Clem will most likely have a ton of questions and not just want to pick up and leave. Also, they see Arvo shoot Clem and instead of calling off the whole thing or trying to take Clem, they leave her. Not to mention they look and sound disappointed when she sees them and never ask if she'd like to come with them. Mike just gives a half hearted 'sure' when she asks and he's trying to get her to put the gun down. There is no indication that they were planning on taking either of them along.
Can someone respond to this part of my post?
But correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anything in that scene actually suggested tha… moret they were going to leave Clem behind in the first place? We see them loading up the supplies and getting the truck started, and that’s when Clem caught them. It’s entirely possible that Bonnie and Mike were planning on asking Clem to leave with them, but were waiting until they were ready to leave at a moment’s notice, in case Clem tried to rat them out to Kenny. Mike seemed completely okay with Clem coming with then when she was the one who asked them after all.
Yeah, it was completely unfair to blame Arvo for what happened to Luke. But we all know how Kenny needs someone to blame whenever things go wrong. Lee, Ben, Clementine, Arvo...
They're mad because they're willing to jump on any excuse to blame Arvo, and fully accept Kenny's racist abuse of him without question. And honestly, what other choice did they have with zombies at their heels and two cripples to worry about?
What other time could they have asked? If they were afraid she would tattle on Kenny, they would have to be ready to leave at a moment's notice in case convincing Clem didn't work. And they had to leave Clem after she was shot, even though Mike and (determinately) Bonnie clearly didn't want to because they were afraid of Kenny. They saw how he pinned all the blame on Arvo after the shootout and tried to shoot him, they were right to run away from the lunatic.
And them sounding disappointed, or Mike's "sure" sounding disappointed isn't substantial proof. Mike's smile when Clem asked to go with him seemed pretty genuine to me, but that's not proof of anything.
Once again, no indication they were planning on leaving her.
So they don't actually ask Clem at a reasonable time, instead they want to wait until the middle of the night when Clem will most likely hav… moree a ton of questions and not just want to pick up and leave. Also, they see Arvo shoot Clem and instead of calling off the whole thing or trying to take Clem, they leave her. Not to mention they look and sound disappointed when she sees them and never ask if she'd like to come with them. Mike just gives a half hearted 'sure' when she asks and he's trying to get her to put the gun down. There is no indication that they were planning on taking either of them along.
The problem I have is that even though Kenny is explicitly compared to Carver and definitely lost my sympathy, the writing tries so damn hard to absolve him and make us forgive him after he redeems himself.
That's why Arvo, whose grudge was much more with Jane and Kenny than Clem, shoots a little girl rather than them. That's why Jane, despite being absolutely correct with her assessment of Kenny, endangers a baby purely to make an unstable man violent.
Yeah, it was completely unfair to blame Arvo for what happened to Luke. But we all know how Kenny needs someone to blame whenever things go wrong. Lee, Ben, Clementine, Arvo...
The problem I have is that even though Kenny is explicitly compared to Carver and definitely lost my sympathy, the writing tries so damn har… mored to absolve him and make us forgive him after he redeems himself.
That's why Arvo, whose grudge was much more with Jane and Kenny than Clem, shoots a little girl rather than them. That's why Jane, despite being absolutely correct with her assessment of Kenny, endangers a baby purely to make an unstable man violent.
Mike comes across very nicely here, even if he seemed to be fine with leaving the baby with Kenny. He empathized with Arvo and won over his trust by being kind. A man who can balance strength with humanity is always valuable.
I'd be happy to see him and Arvo in Season 3 or a DLC.
What other time could they have asked? If they were afraid she would tattle on Kenny, they would have to be ready to leave at a moment's not… moreice in case convincing Clem didn't work. And they had to leave Clem after she was shot, even though Mike and (determinately) Bonnie clearly didn't want to because they were afraid of Kenny. They saw how he pinned all the blame on Arvo after the shootout and tried to shoot him, they were right to run away from the lunatic.
And them sounding disappointed, or Mike's "sure" sounding disappointed isn't substantial proof. Mike's smile when Clem asked to go with him seemed pretty genuine to me, but that's not proof of anything.
Once again, no indication they were planning on leaving her.
It's entirely possible that was their plan. I certainly don't think they intended any direct harm towards Kenny, Jane AJ, or Clem. it was the second bag that was the deal breaker.
However I felt that they weren't planning on taking Clem. There was nothing to support it imo. It started with Bonnie saying to Clem about doing actions you regret (or something like that) that made me think that she apologising in advance for something, she always tries to tell the truth. Then that night she comes out with the last bag of supplies, and for me that earlier conversation suddenly clicked in place, she was apologising about leaving Clem. They were taking the truck and getting out of there. Mike goes to disarm Clem, not Arvo who was far more likely to shoot by accident or on purpose looking at his composure.
I can understand why they'd want to leave without Kenny and Jane but there actions didn't inspire me with confidence that they trusted Clem or had any intention to take her with them. At which point I shouted out. If they'd only had one bag, I'd have likely gone through it differently.
If I meet them as Clem in S3 I'll likely be very wary but inclined to give them a chance. If I meet Arvo again I'm feeding him d**k first to the nearest walker.
Can someone respond to this part of my post?
But correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anything in that scene actually suggested tha… moret they were going to leave Clem behind in the first place? We see them loading up the supplies and getting the truck started, and that’s when Clem caught them. It’s entirely possible that Bonnie and Mike were planning on asking Clem to leave with them, but were waiting until they were ready to leave at a moment’s notice, in case Clem tried to rat them out to Kenny. Mike seemed completely okay with Clem coming with then when she was the one who asked them after all.
That doesn't make any sense. There was no time to convince Clem. It would either be she wanted to go or not. And how can you expect someone to make a decision like that on a moment's notice?
And I don't get this fear of Kenny. He was an old guy with one eye and a bad temper. They were three people with a gun. What were they so afraid of? Also, you didn't explain why they didn't pick up Clem and take her with, even if she asked to come along.
A 'genuine grin' is not substantial proof either. There's much more evidence to the contrary. Their body language and their speech when she sees them, not asking Clem prior or during their conversation, leaving Clem no matter if she asks to go with them or not, leaving Clem and going with the guy who just shot an unarmed girl.
What other time could they have asked? If they were afraid she would tattle on Kenny, they would have to be ready to leave at a moment's not… moreice in case convincing Clem didn't work. And they had to leave Clem after she was shot, even though Mike and (determinately) Bonnie clearly didn't want to because they were afraid of Kenny. They saw how he pinned all the blame on Arvo after the shootout and tried to shoot him, they were right to run away from the lunatic.
And them sounding disappointed, or Mike's "sure" sounding disappointed isn't substantial proof. Mike's smile when Clem asked to go with him seemed pretty genuine to me, but that's not proof of anything.
Once again, no indication they were planning on leaving her.
Exactly. Either she agrees to go or she yells for Kenny. That’s why they were packing up to leave first, instead of asking Clem beforehand, in case she immediately ratted them out when they brought up the question.
And Kenny was an old guy with a bad temper, a gun, and a clear willingness to murder people. They saw it first hand with how he wanted to shoot Arvo immediately. They were afraid that Kenny would try to murder them on the spot for getting Clem hurt, and we’ve seen how Mike and Bonnie didn’t like hurting or killing other people (not watching Carver’s death, defending Arvo). They couldn’t bring an injured Clem while they were escaping Kenny, it’s not like they could’ve carried her if she was bleeding out. If anything, they were doing what’s best for Clem by not taking her after she was shot, since they wouldn’t have been able to fix her while on the run.
I know the grin isn't proof, much like how your perception of their body language isn’t proof either. That was my point. And I explained my thoughts on why they didn’t ask Clem earlier, or why they left an injured Clem.
That doesn't make any sense. There was no time to convince Clem. It would either be she wanted to go or not. And how can you expect someone … moreto make a decision like that on a moment's notice?
And I don't get this fear of Kenny. He was an old guy with one eye and a bad temper. They were three people with a gun. What were they so afraid of? Also, you didn't explain why they didn't pick up Clem and take her with, even if she asked to come along.
A 'genuine grin' is not substantial proof either. There's much more evidence to the contrary. Their body language and their speech when she sees them, not asking Clem prior or during their conversation, leaving Clem no matter if she asks to go with them or not, leaving Clem and going with the guy who just shot an unarmed girl.
It's entirely possible that was their plan. I certainly don't think they intended any direct harm towards Kenny, Jane AJ, or Clem. it was th… moree second bag that was the deal breaker.
However I felt that they weren't planning on taking Clem. There was nothing to support it imo. It started with Bonnie saying to Clem about doing actions you regret (or something like that) that made me think that she apologising in advance for something, she always tries to tell the truth. Then that night she comes out with the last bag of supplies, and for me that earlier conversation suddenly clicked in place, she was apologising about leaving Clem. They were taking the truck and getting out of there. Mike goes to disarm Clem, not Arvo who was far more likely to shoot by accident or on purpose looking at his composure.
I can understand why they'd want to leave without Kenny and Jane but there actions didn't inspire me with confidence that they trusted Clem o… [view original content]
It was Kenny who didn't /want/ to find the way around and just go straight across, so it was his plan to begin with. Arvo just said it was safe. Considering, at most, it was probably just him and his sister crossing at any given time, maybe he didn't think about the weight.
I think you can infer that Arvo lost his entire family that day. Yet I wonder why nobody's excusing his rage the way they did for Carver 2.0.
By the way, why are people blaming him for Luke's death? How was he in any way responsible for that?
That still doesn't excuse them for running away. They were leaving her with a dangerous person in their eyes. They were taking all the supplies. If they intended her to go, why didn't they ask the moment they saw her outside? Why did they let Arvo point the gun at Clem if they were so peaceful? There's just too many variables and other possibilities other than leaving her there. And also they left with Arvo who, like I said, just shot an unarmed girl. They cared more about protecting Arvo than Clementine. If I saw that, I'd turned and said, dude, you're on your own.
Also, Jane was clearly on their side of things and more willing to take Kenny down if necessary. They didn't even talk to her about it? I don't see how Kenny, even with a gun, would be able to take on five people (if Clem agreed that Kenny was out of control). Some of this is just bad writing, but I don't get this overwhelming threat of Kenny, that their only option was running away.
Exactly. Either she agrees to go or she yells for Kenny. That’s why they were packing up to leave first, instead of asking Clem beforehand, … morein case she immediately ratted them out when they brought up the question.
And Kenny was an old guy with a bad temper, a gun, and a clear willingness to murder people. They saw it first hand with how he wanted to shoot Arvo immediately. They were afraid that Kenny would try to murder them on the spot for getting Clem hurt, and we’ve seen how Mike and Bonnie didn’t like hurting or killing other people (not watching Carver’s death, defending Arvo). They couldn’t bring an injured Clem while they were escaping Kenny, it’s not like they could’ve carried her if she was bleeding out. If anything, they were doing what’s best for Clem by not taking her after she was shot, since they wouldn’t have been able to fix her while on the run.
I know the grin isn't proof, much like how your perception of their body l… [view original content]
Did you understand my reasoning for why they were hesitant to ask Clem to go with them in the first place? They knew she was close with Kenny, and was afraid she would tattle to Kenny. The whole reason they left was because they knew Kenny only cared about Clem and AJ. Mike and Bonnie knew Kenny was dangerous, but not towards Clem.
And when Clem shows up, she immediately pulls her gun on them. Mike spends most of the confrontation trying to calm her down, which was much more important than discussing their departure in case she shot someone.
They let Arvo point the gun at Clem because she was pointing a gun at them.
And nothing actually confirms if they left with Arvo to my knowledge, just that they left the group.
And I completely agree that this scene was poorly written. But why do Mike and Bonnie have to suffer the brunt of the hate and not Kenny?
That still doesn't excuse them for running away. They were leaving her with a dangerous person in their eyes. They were taking all the suppl… moreies. If they intended her to go, why didn't they ask the moment they saw her outside? Why did they let Arvo point the gun at Clem if they were so peaceful? There's just too many variables and other possibilities other than leaving her there. And also they left with Arvo who, like I said, just shot an unarmed girl. They cared more about protecting Arvo than Clementine. If I saw that, I'd turned and said, dude, you're on your own.
Also, Jane was clearly on their side of things and more willing to take Kenny down if necessary. They didn't even talk to her about it? I don't see how Kenny, even with a gun, would be able to take on five people (if Clem agreed that Kenny was out of control). Some of this is just bad writing, but I don't get this overwhelming threat of Kenny, that their only option was running away.
I understand the reasoning but it still doesn't seem like sound decision making to me. And it also implies that they were willing to leave Clem and AJ if she didn't want to come along. And Kenny has definitely been nasty to Clem in front of the group at some points. He may have a bit more patience with her but he was dangerous to everyone outside of AJ.
She pulled the gun cause she saw some strangers looking like they were robbing them from behind. Did they really expect Clem to shoot them? Clearly Arvo was the more unstable one of the two. She wasn't out of control. She just wanted to know what was going on. That was the perfect time to ask if she wanted to come with. Instead, they act like they are taking the stuff and leaving without her. Just tell her you are leaving and you want her to come along. Don't say vague things like "We're leaving" and "We don't have time for this"
Oh, I'm certainly not absolving Kenny. He was off his rocker by this point. I think someone made a good point about him being like an abuser who hurts you and then says all these nice things afterwards so you forgive him. If they'd asked prior to sneaking out, my Clem would've definitely gone with them. But the way they went about things and the fact that Arvo tried to kill Clem, meant I didn't want her with them. By the end of Chapter 5, I'd rather Clem go with walker Luke than any the other characters.
Did you understand my reasoning for why they were hesitant to ask Clem to go with them in the first place? They knew she was close with Kenn… morey, and was afraid she would tattle to Kenny. The whole reason they left was because they knew Kenny only cared about Clem and AJ. Mike and Bonnie knew Kenny was dangerous, but not towards Clem.
And when Clem shows up, she immediately pulls her gun on them. Mike spends most of the confrontation trying to calm her down, which was much more important than discussing their departure in case she shot someone.
They let Arvo point the gun at Clem because she was pointing a gun at them.
And nothing actually confirms if they left with Arvo to my knowledge, just that they left the group.
And I completely agree that this scene was poorly written. But why do Mike and Bonnie have to suffer the brunt of the hate and not Kenny?
If Clem didn't want to come, it's not like they could've forced her. And don't forget that Kenny has also taken a vicious beating for Clem. It was reasonable for Mike and Bonnie to assume Clem wasn't in serious danger with Kenny.
And they were unsure of Clem's intentions; would she side with Kenny and stop them or agree with them and come along? I understand why Mike was so wary in front of Clem holding a gun at them and why his first thought wasn't to ask her to join them, since Clem never showed any indication that she would be willing to leave Kenny (because the game never gave you such an option until the ending).
Anyways, I can excuse how vague they were being because, once again they were scared as hell that Kenny would murder them if they were caught, and were completely unsure if Clem would side with them. I'm not surprised no one involved kept a level head.
And as for me, my dream choice would've been to go with Luke, Jane, Mike and Bonnie. That group was perfectly fine until Kenny tore them apart.
I understand the reasoning but it still doesn't seem like sound decision making to me. And it also implies that they were willing to leave C… morelem and AJ if she didn't want to come along. And Kenny has definitely been nasty to Clem in front of the group at some points. He may have a bit more patience with her but he was dangerous to everyone outside of AJ.
She pulled the gun cause she saw some strangers looking like they were robbing them from behind. Did they really expect Clem to shoot them? Clearly Arvo was the more unstable one of the two. She wasn't out of control. She just wanted to know what was going on. That was the perfect time to ask if she wanted to come with. Instead, they act like they are taking the stuff and leaving without her. Just tell her you are leaving and you want her to come along. Don't say vague things like "We're leaving" and "We don't have time for this"
Oh, I'm certainly not absolving Kenny. He was off his rock… [view original content]
I'm sorry but they almost left Clementine and AJ for dead... I can't like people who would just abandon their friends like that and let someone shoot her.
I only vaguely recall the playthrough where the player didn't "help" Luke and Bonnie lashed out at Clem, so perhaps she would seem more symp… moreathetic in another playthrough. I can appreciate her putting her trust in Mike and empathizing with Arvo, and don't forget that her experience with Carver would make her especially wary around having to follow another fledgling control-freak like Kenny.
Clem wasnt in serious danger from Kenny. But Clem was in serious danger from them stealing the truck and all the supplies. Not leaving them ANYTHING. Oh. And not leaving the baby anything.
What was that that Bonnie said to Rebecca's body? That they'd take good care of her son?
If Clem didn't want to come, it's not like they could've forced her. And don't forget that Kenny has also taken a vicious beating for Clem. … moreIt was reasonable for Mike and Bonnie to assume Clem wasn't in serious danger with Kenny.
And they were unsure of Clem's intentions; would she side with Kenny and stop them or agree with them and come along? I understand why Mike was so wary in front of Clem holding a gun at them and why his first thought wasn't to ask her to join them, since Clem never showed any indication that she would be willing to leave Kenny (because the game never gave you such an option until the ending).
Anyways, I can excuse how vague they were being because, once again they were scared as hell that Kenny would murder them if they were caught, and were completely unsure if Clem would side with them. I'm not surprised no one involved kept a level head.
And as for me, my dream choice would've been to go with Luke, Jane, Mike and Bonnie. That group was perfectly fine until Kenny tore them apart.
Comments
Yeah, maybe those examples weren't exactly the same. But how about Kenny wanting to attack armed guards while in the truck? It could've worked, since only Bonnie, Tavia and Troy were waiting for them, but Kenny didn't know that. There could've been dozens for all he knew, which made it incredibly stupid. Anyways, it's not like Bonnie's the only one who made a stupid call before.
...Eh, at least Bonnie wasn't as stupid in the scenario where you help Luke instead of cover him.
I also think there's great potential for us to see Arvo again, if not as a protagonist then as an important character.
Personally, it seems out of character for him to shoot a child, even one as dangerous/competent as Clementine. But I can understand him being at an extremely low point in his life and doing something irrational - Kenny had no right to treat him the way he did.
It is out of character, considering his first encounter with her. He was startled, so he pulled the gun, but I sincerely doubt he planned on using it. But he obviously had a huge attachment to Natasha, were he to flip out like that. Not to mention, he called the others his friends so perhaps they were close, too. And he got them all killed. That mentally shut him down, most likely--I like that the voice actor was completely monotone when delivering the lines, it really added to that effect.
If anything, he stayed with a group because his injury made him completely helpless. The fastest I've seen him run is him hopping accorss the ice, and if he fell with a walker on top of him, forget it. I wonder if Clem and Arvo would ever come together.
"Buricko says we will take everything."
To be honest, that bald jackass was responsible for everything - he was the one who decided to rob the group, and he was the one who started the gunfight. Makes me wonder if he was the "Kenny" of his group.
Yeah, I think Maud even tells Buriko at one point that he was insane for deciding to rob the group in the first place. Ugh, poor Maud, she actually seemed like a pretty reasonable person. Speaking of, why does Arvo call her Natasha? I guess Maud is their surname???
Maud was the model name. Nick Breckon came up with the character's name.
It's kind of funny how female characters keep getting killed off to motivate their male relations. Sarita dies so that Kenny can become a raging mess. Nick's mother dies off-screen so that he can treat Clem like a rabid dog. Maud dies just so Arvo can snap and shoot a little girl.
It's bad writing. :P
The reason why this isn't simply a case of good people doing something bad, is that they had time to come up with this plan. It was in the middle of the night so they had to have discussed it. During this time, none of them considered, maybe they should give Kenny an ultimatum instead of simply bolting with all the supplies. It was four against one at that point with Clem on the fence based on Kenny's behavior. Then, they decided to leave Clem and AJ. Heck, even if they tried to take the baby, I might have understood a little but the willingly left them both to die considering they took all the supplies and left them with someone who they consider to be highly dangerous.
And they did this with a person they barely knew and who had lured them into a trap at the beginning of the chapter. This isn't a matter of mistakes or heat of the moment decisions. This was planned out. There is no excuse.
Can someone respond to this part of my post?
But correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anything in that scene actually suggested that they were going to leave Clem behind in the first place? We see them loading up the supplies and getting the truck started, and that’s when Clem caught them. It’s entirely possible that Bonnie and Mike were planning on asking Clem to leave with them, but were waiting until they were ready to leave at a moment’s notice, in case Clem tried to rat them out to Kenny. Mike seemed completely okay with Clem coming with then when she was the one who asked them after all.
I think you can infer that Arvo lost his entire family that day. Yet I wonder why nobody's excusing his rage the way they did for Carver 2.0.
By the way, why are people blaming him for Luke's death? How was he in any way responsible for that?
From what I recall, Bonnie is the one who's urging Mike to leave immediately. If that is because she's afraid Clem would "rat them out", that'd be understandable but as the scene is presented it seems like they really did just plan on running off without telling anybody. And I find it really hard to like them for leaving a baby with the man they fear so much, even if it was precisely because they feared his wrath.
Arvo told everyone it was safe to cross the ice.
Actually, Bonnie only tells Mike that "she's got everything" when she shows up at the truck with the supplies. She doesn't tell him at any point that they have to leave immediately after Clem confronts them, so there's still nothing that explicitly suggests they were going to run off without her. I don't know if her dialogue is any different if you covered Luke instead of helping him.
And as for the baby, at least they left the baby formula with him. At least I assume they did. Why would they take it with them?
And he proved it by walking across it himself. But then people blame him for running and infuriating Kenny, which confuses me because Arvo running has no causal link to making Luke step on a fragile spot of the lake.
I only vaguely recall the playthrough where the player didn't "help" Luke and Bonnie lashed out at Clem, so perhaps she would seem more sympathetic in another playthrough. I can appreciate her putting her trust in Mike and empathizing with Arvo, and don't forget that her experience with Carver would make her especially wary around having to follow another fledgling control-freak like Kenny.
I guess people are just mad that it turned out the ice wasn't as safe as he claimed?
They're mad because they're willing to jump on any excuse to blame Arvo, and fully accept Kenny's racist abuse of him without question. And honestly, what other choice did they have with zombies at their heels and two cripples to worry about?
So they don't actually ask Clem at a reasonable time, instead they want to wait until the middle of the night when Clem will most likely have a ton of questions and not just want to pick up and leave. Also, they see Arvo shoot Clem and instead of calling off the whole thing or trying to take Clem, they leave her. Not to mention they look and sound disappointed when she sees them and never ask if she'd like to come with them. Mike just gives a half hearted 'sure' when she asks and he's trying to get her to put the gun down. There is no indication that they were planning on taking either of them along.
Yeah, it was completely unfair to blame Arvo for what happened to Luke. But we all know how Kenny needs someone to blame whenever things go wrong. Lee, Ben, Clementine, Arvo...
What other time could they have asked? If they were afraid she would tattle on Kenny, they would have to be ready to leave at a moment's notice in case convincing Clem didn't work. And they had to leave Clem after she was shot, even though Mike and (determinately) Bonnie clearly didn't want to because they were afraid of Kenny. They saw how he pinned all the blame on Arvo after the shootout and tried to shoot him, they were right to run away from the lunatic.
And them sounding disappointed, or Mike's "sure" sounding disappointed isn't substantial proof. Mike's smile when Clem asked to go with him seemed pretty genuine to me, but that's not proof of anything.
Once again, no indication they were planning on leaving her.
The problem I have is that even though Kenny is explicitly compared to Carver and definitely lost my sympathy, the writing tries so damn hard to absolve him and make us forgive him after he redeems himself.
That's why Arvo, whose grudge was much more with Jane and Kenny than Clem, shoots a little girl rather than them. That's why Jane, despite being absolutely correct with her assessment of Kenny, endangers a baby purely to make an unstable man violent.
Yup, the writing is so transparently biased for Kenny. At least he's determinate now, so we likely won't see him for long next season, if at all.
Mike comes across very nicely here, even if he seemed to be fine with leaving the baby with Kenny. He empathized with Arvo and won over his trust by being kind. A man who can balance strength with humanity is always valuable.
I'd be happy to see him and Arvo in Season 3 or a DLC.
It's entirely possible that was their plan. I certainly don't think they intended any direct harm towards Kenny, Jane AJ, or Clem. it was the second bag that was the deal breaker.
However I felt that they weren't planning on taking Clem. There was nothing to support it imo. It started with Bonnie saying to Clem about doing actions you regret (or something like that) that made me think that she apologising in advance for something, she always tries to tell the truth. Then that night she comes out with the last bag of supplies, and for me that earlier conversation suddenly clicked in place, she was apologising about leaving Clem. They were taking the truck and getting out of there. Mike goes to disarm Clem, not Arvo who was far more likely to shoot by accident or on purpose looking at his composure.
I can understand why they'd want to leave without Kenny and Jane but there actions didn't inspire me with confidence that they trusted Clem or had any intention to take her with them. At which point I shouted out. If they'd only had one bag, I'd have likely gone through it differently.
If I meet them as Clem in S3 I'll likely be very wary but inclined to give them a chance. If I meet Arvo again I'm feeding him d**k first to the nearest walker.
Arvo? Fuck him.
Bonnie and Mike? You two are cool. Mike's a humanitarian sort of cool guy. Seeing Arvo getting beaten to an inch of his life was the breaking point.
That doesn't make any sense. There was no time to convince Clem. It would either be she wanted to go or not. And how can you expect someone to make a decision like that on a moment's notice?
And I don't get this fear of Kenny. He was an old guy with one eye and a bad temper. They were three people with a gun. What were they so afraid of? Also, you didn't explain why they didn't pick up Clem and take her with, even if she asked to come along.
A 'genuine grin' is not substantial proof either. There's much more evidence to the contrary. Their body language and their speech when she sees them, not asking Clem prior or during their conversation, leaving Clem no matter if she asks to go with them or not, leaving Clem and going with the guy who just shot an unarmed girl.
Holy shut I had no idea Bonnie was determinant!
Exactly. Either she agrees to go or she yells for Kenny. That’s why they were packing up to leave first, instead of asking Clem beforehand, in case she immediately ratted them out when they brought up the question.
And Kenny was an old guy with a bad temper, a gun, and a clear willingness to murder people. They saw it first hand with how he wanted to shoot Arvo immediately. They were afraid that Kenny would try to murder them on the spot for getting Clem hurt, and we’ve seen how Mike and Bonnie didn’t like hurting or killing other people (not watching Carver’s death, defending Arvo). They couldn’t bring an injured Clem while they were escaping Kenny, it’s not like they could’ve carried her if she was bleeding out. If anything, they were doing what’s best for Clem by not taking her after she was shot, since they wouldn’t have been able to fix her while on the run.
I know the grin isn't proof, much like how your perception of their body language isn’t proof either. That was my point. And I explained my thoughts on why they didn’t ask Clem earlier, or why they left an injured Clem.
I'd give Arvo a chance, seeing as he was in the worst emotional state of anyone in the group. The kid would probably be haunted by it later on.
It was Kenny who didn't /want/ to find the way around and just go straight across, so it was his plan to begin with. Arvo just said it was safe. Considering, at most, it was probably just him and his sister crossing at any given time, maybe he didn't think about the weight.
That still doesn't excuse them for running away. They were leaving her with a dangerous person in their eyes. They were taking all the supplies. If they intended her to go, why didn't they ask the moment they saw her outside? Why did they let Arvo point the gun at Clem if they were so peaceful? There's just too many variables and other possibilities other than leaving her there. And also they left with Arvo who, like I said, just shot an unarmed girl. They cared more about protecting Arvo than Clementine. If I saw that, I'd turned and said, dude, you're on your own.
Also, Jane was clearly on their side of things and more willing to take Kenny down if necessary. They didn't even talk to her about it? I don't see how Kenny, even with a gun, would be able to take on five people (if Clem agreed that Kenny was out of control). Some of this is just bad writing, but I don't get this overwhelming threat of Kenny, that their only option was running away.
Did you understand my reasoning for why they were hesitant to ask Clem to go with them in the first place? They knew she was close with Kenny, and was afraid she would tattle to Kenny. The whole reason they left was because they knew Kenny only cared about Clem and AJ. Mike and Bonnie knew Kenny was dangerous, but not towards Clem.
And when Clem shows up, she immediately pulls her gun on them. Mike spends most of the confrontation trying to calm her down, which was much more important than discussing their departure in case she shot someone.
They let Arvo point the gun at Clem because she was pointing a gun at them.
And nothing actually confirms if they left with Arvo to my knowledge, just that they left the group.
And I completely agree that this scene was poorly written. But why do Mike and Bonnie have to suffer the brunt of the hate and not Kenny?
I understand the reasoning but it still doesn't seem like sound decision making to me. And it also implies that they were willing to leave Clem and AJ if she didn't want to come along. And Kenny has definitely been nasty to Clem in front of the group at some points. He may have a bit more patience with her but he was dangerous to everyone outside of AJ.
She pulled the gun cause she saw some strangers looking like they were robbing them from behind. Did they really expect Clem to shoot them? Clearly Arvo was the more unstable one of the two. She wasn't out of control. She just wanted to know what was going on. That was the perfect time to ask if she wanted to come with. Instead, they act like they are taking the stuff and leaving without her. Just tell her you are leaving and you want her to come along. Don't say vague things like "We're leaving" and "We don't have time for this"
Oh, I'm certainly not absolving Kenny. He was off his rocker by this point. I think someone made a good point about him being like an abuser who hurts you and then says all these nice things afterwards so you forgive him. If they'd asked prior to sneaking out, my Clem would've definitely gone with them. But the way they went about things and the fact that Arvo tried to kill Clem, meant I didn't want her with them. By the end of Chapter 5, I'd rather Clem go with walker Luke than any the other characters.
If Clem didn't want to come, it's not like they could've forced her. And don't forget that Kenny has also taken a vicious beating for Clem. It was reasonable for Mike and Bonnie to assume Clem wasn't in serious danger with Kenny.
And they were unsure of Clem's intentions; would she side with Kenny and stop them or agree with them and come along? I understand why Mike was so wary in front of Clem holding a gun at them and why his first thought wasn't to ask her to join them, since Clem never showed any indication that she would be willing to leave Kenny (because the game never gave you such an option until the ending).
Anyways, I can excuse how vague they were being because, once again they were scared as hell that Kenny would murder them if they were caught, and were completely unsure if Clem would side with them. I'm not surprised no one involved kept a level head.
And as for me, my dream choice would've been to go with Luke, Jane, Mike and Bonnie. That group was perfectly fine until Kenny tore them apart.
I'm just gonna put this nice and shortly:
Trying to flee from Kenny was reasonable.
Stealing the supplies and the truck then leaving an 11 year old and a newborn baby to die was NOT. FUCKING. REASONABLE.
Screw Arvo and both of them with cacti.
I have no quarrel with Mike and Bonnie. But Arvo...
I swear, I will find him and I will kill him! No one, NO ONE shoots Clementine and gets away with it!
I'm sorry but they almost left Clementine and AJ for dead... I can't like people who would just abandon their friends like that and let someone shoot her.
if you cover luke and bonnie lives mike will care about you getting shot and if you help luke, bonnie will care about you getting shot
Its not that they wanted to leave that people hate.
It's not even that they wanted to leave with Arvo.
It's that they wanted to leave with Arvo, while trying to steal the truck and all the supplies, and leaving behind AJ and Clem to die.
Clem wasnt in serious danger from Kenny. But Clem was in serious danger from them stealing the truck and all the supplies. Not leaving them ANYTHING. Oh. And not leaving the baby anything.
What was that that Bonnie said to Rebecca's body? That they'd take good care of her son?
Yeah, for about 2 days.