Kenny Was Poison
(I would like to clarify that this did not start as a Kenny hate thread in my mind, but it seems that is what it has become)
Please consider this. The group in S2E5 of Mike, Luke, Bonnie, Jane and Clem had the greatest chemistry I had ever seen amongst any group in TWD. They were actually joking and laughing in the freakin zombie apocalypse! What drove them apart? In one word. Kenny. He has NEVER ever listened to anything anyone has to say ever since S1. Here's how an exchange with Kenny goes.
Kenny: We're going to Wellington!
Bonnie/Mike/Clem: What? Why? You don't even know if anything's up there!
Kenny: Screw you, I'm right!
...
And I remember one exchange from Season 1.
Kenny: We're going to find a boat.
Lee: Listen Kenny, what if there's no boat up there? Maybe we should...
Kenny: We're going to find a boat.
Lee:...
And the worst part is that Kenny is always portrayed as some wounded hero as if that somehow justifies his poisonous behavior. Oh he lost his wife and kid, oh he lost his girlfriend. Well tough nuts. Everyone has lost people. Lee lost his family. Luke lost ALL his friends. Jane her sister. Clem has lost everybody.
The thing that bothers me the most is that the devos portrayed some Clem/Kenny friendship as if they had ever been close. Kenny never even talked to Clem in S1, besides that one line in S1E1 (You're lucky you don't have spiders in your hair). And everyone we encounter as Clem tells her, "Why don't you go talk to him? He's your friend." No. I'm sorry. He wasn't. He might have been Lee's friend at some point. But he was never Clementine's friend.
They just happened to be in the same group connected through Lee.
The game shouldn't have been all about Kenny. Hey it was. Look at his death scene. He gets to say a whole speech (which Gavin Hammon should get some kind of award for), while countless others, died ugly deaths that weren't "tragically beautiful." There were many others in this Season I wanted Clem to get close to but they never gave me that opportunity. I saved Nick numerous times, we had something good going in the first 2 eps then he goes mute in the 3rd episode and dies off-screen in the 4th. I saved Sarah (a huge waste of potential for a character) in the hope that Telltale would have her go on a reversal arc but she dies anyway 20 minutes later. I wanted Clem to bond with Luke, to mourn for him when he died but just like that, he dies silently and horribly with barely an afterthought from anyone but Bonnie.
Kenny tore the group apart. His abuse of Arvo, the refusal to listen to anyone, the unstable behavior, the unwillingness to compromise, all these played a large factor in why I feel Kenny was poison to be around. If he hadn't been involved with the group in the finale they might have had a chance to make it all together. We will never know though because the devos wanted to push the Kenny storyline until the very end.
Of course I had to stop him at the end, he had gone too far. I was waiting all game for an opportunity to stop Kenny's reign of terror. While in his mind, what he was doing was right, it just wasn't good for the group, his volatile behavior. I will remember that finale group and how easily they all liked and supported each other Luke. Mike. Bonnie. Jane. Clementine. They would have made it.
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Their selfishness is what drove the group apart. You didn't see Lee and Clementine leave the group because he didn't like Larry. You know? The guy who tried to actually murder him. Kenny and Clementine were also quite close (There was a 3 month time skip anything could've happened between them), and just because they didn't talk doesn't mean he didn't care about her.
Also, are you criticizing the characters death? Kenny? Or Telltale? Because the argument of "Oh look at his death" can be brought back all the way to Season One. Remember Carley/Doug's death, compared to Lee? What about Ben's death? What about Marks? Or Larry? Or Katjaa, or Duck or Chuck? Just because you don't die in a "graceful" way doesn't mean it was in vain.
Another thing, I still don't understand if you're criticizing Kenny or just comparing him to other characters?
Plus Kenny may have "tore the group apart" but the group was stupid. Mike and Bonnie trusted Arvo with a gun, a kid who could have led to our deaths. Arvo caused the death of Luke. Jane had this stupid plan of "I'll show Kenny is angry and aggressive. Oh god I didn't mean for him to get angry and aggressive, please forgive me Clementine".
Plus Mike, Bonnie and Arvo "made it". Luke died because of Arvo. Clementine and AJ "made it" (If you've seen the Kenny endings you'd know he sacrificed himself for Clementine and AJ), and Jane can "make it".
They were nice people trying to robb ALL the supplies of a little girl and a baby.
No Lee always would try to keep the group together because he believed they were safer with people. Kenny never showed any kind of caring that Lee did, as if he expected them to follow him just because he said so. This group was not stupid. Why did Arvo cause the death of Luke? He ran because he was tired of being hit by Kenny. Why did Mike & Bonnie trust Arvo with a gun? They wanted to get away in a hurry because they were scared of Kenny, and were gathering the supplies to keep them alive, not very dumb to me. They never counted on Arvo shooting his gun. Why did Jane have to show that Kenny was broken and gone? I'll blame the developers on that one. Clem never had an option to tell Kenny to go away or screw himself when he repeatedly would screw the group over. All it took was for Kenny to try to kill someone to show Clem that Kenny was dangerous.
Well I guess the devos intended for Kenny to have the same kind of impact that Lee had especially with his death scene. And all I can say is that Kenny was not Lee. As for other death scenes, I feel some were poorly handled this episode. Nick and Sarah in particular because the choices you make don't matter. You can save them, teach Sarah to use a gun, convince Walter that Nick is a good guy, save Sarah from the trailer and they have no impact at all later.
I feel that Kenny was a lot like Lenny in Of Mice and Men. Someone that was always going to get in the way of Clem's maximum happiness and constantly put her at odds with others. That he was doing it all for me never made me feel like I owed him anything, he took that on himself for his own reasons.
And why did they do that? They wanted to get as far away as possible from Kenny. Especially after Arvo shot Clem. Kenny would have murdered them first and asked questions later.
Look how that turned out. Nearly everybody died regardless. Also Kenny never showed any caring? He sacrificed himself to protect Clementine, and keep Sarita, Walter and Matthew safe. Why did Arvo cause the death of Luke? He ran away on the ice. For no reason whatsoever. Even if he was scared, it'd be best to just oblige and take orders instead of running and then saying to Kenny "Fuck you".
Also whatever their reason was, it was still dumb. It ended with Clementine getting shot, and it was their damn fault. They were idiots, who only cared about themselves. In fact Bonnie tried to down-talk me, saying how easy it was to be me a pretty little girl, just because I didn't help Luke. To be honest I hope they all die out there, they left the group just to protect themselves. At least Kenny tried to protect Clementine and AJ.
Also Jane tried to show Kenny was broken, because she wanted to keep Clementine for herself and away from Kenny. As Kenny said, she had her own agenda, and she was an idiot. It wasn't the developers fault. Jane thought Clementine would shoot Kenny, but I didn't. Screw Jane. Also Clementine could easily disagree with Kenny, and could even murder him (even if she let him murder Jane).
It also didn't take Kenny trying to kill someone to show he was dangerous. Clementine knew and still trusted him (at least in my playthrough, in others she can easily just not trust him). Also the "Kenny death scene" did have an impact. Not everybody is the same, also what has Nick and Sarah got to do with this?
Yes. Remember kids no matter what the reason is, you can easily shoot and leave a harmless girl for dead and leave a woman, a man and a baby to starve. Good going.
I think Luke was the only normal person left and he died. Mike/Bonnie stole from us. Kenny was crazy. Jane was crazy. I agreed with Kenny most of the time in season 1. I agreed with him more in season2. I sat with him instead of Luke, I agreed with his plan. I defended him all the time. He was my favourite character of season 2. So don't think for a second I hate Kenny. I liked him very much and was sad that I had to shoot him. He had lost a lot and as a result, Turned made. He nearly beat Arvo to death. It was his way or the highway. I'll miss Kenny but I feel it had to be done, I left Jane too. Groups always fall apart. You always get the people who mess up, Who turn crazy, Who steal. Groups are hopeless now I feel.
Kenny never showed caring for Clem in Season 1. In Season 2 he shows he cares for Clem in some instances, though I think he "chose" to care for Clem because she reminded him of Lee and his own son Duck. Arvo saw an opportunity and took his chances to get away from (in his eyes) the psycopath who was yelling at him, calling him rascist names and abusing him. Again Mike and Bonnie left because they couldn't stand that Kenny was hurting someone who obviously couldn't hurt him. Yes Jane showed Kenny was broken because in her eyes, Kenny was broken and incapable of taking care of Clem and AJ when obviously in his eyes he is more than capable of taking care of them. What I meant by the Nick comparison is that I had zero closure with Nick and I had 100% closure with Kenny in his death scene. Basically I'm sick of characters staying alive that don't have any impact later on.
In TWD universe, the main goal is survival. If that's what Mike has to do and he can live with it, then good for him. At this point, Mike empathized more with Arvo because he was a victim of Kenny's abuse. At least Bonnie seemed to show some remorse for Clem, apologizing profusely. Kenny was mad. They had to leave if they wanted to live.
What an incredible game yeah? That it can elicit such deep discussions.
I think the reason they did that is because they're scared to be around with an unreasonable violent megalomaniac,and people tend to be irrational when they're scared.
Just because he didn't show care for her. Doesn't mean he didn't care for her. I could have a crush at school or something. But just because I didn't show my love directly to them, doesn't mean I don't love them? He was far too busy looking after his family or grieving over his family. He also did show care, as he cared if Clementine was fed in 'Starved For Help', he asked about Clementine in 'Long Road Ahead', and he sacrificed himself for Ben and to tell Lee to go after and find Clementine.
Also if Kenny was "broken" and "incapable" of caring for Clementine, then how did they make it to Wellington after nine days? How did he take a beating for her, and lost his eye with the "walkie-talkie" situation? Mike and Bonnie regardless still caused Clementine to get shot, and stole supplies from her, Jane, Kenny and AJ, whatever their reason.
The main goal is survival is it? Okay. So Kenny had to beat Arvo. For survival, he had to live with it, good for him. Kenny had to kill Carver. For survival. Kenny got the car working. For survival. Kenny (can) put down Duck. For survival.
If survival is the excuse for just almost murdering a little girl. Then survival can be an excuse for getting rid of danger, because that's all that Kenny was doing right? He did it for survival.
To be honest, you are right. Season One spawned a lot of discussions like this also, which I liked.
I have a quote that would support your thread.
"Kenny is the kind of guy who would beat the shit out of the water while his kid drowned."
I have a quote from S1 Kenny that would contradict your post.
"Hey, it was a tough choice, but you took care the kids. That's what a real man does."
Whoa, you read Steinbeck too? Guess we don't have to catch up on our literature! :P
Kenny was love, Kenny is still love, Kenny is life.
Jane V Kenny felt like picking a highly combustible chemical.
Ok then just fuck the kids, we can get half the supplies or less, but no, let´s get fucking everything and leave them to starve and freeze cuz we scared about kenny. Come on.
If I thought that, I would've explained the whole book. :P
If that happens to me in real life , no doubt that i will choose to kill Kenny and after that kill Jane and kill the baby. In such envoirment as in the Walking Dead world best chance to survive is to be alone.
Then you're quite stupid to ditch a proven survivalist that already wishes you to be with her, if it were for survival only.
Killing (or eating) the baby would be reasonable though.
I guess Kenny isn't a real man then, is he?
In the end of season 2, you make a choice of what I consider to be the lesser of two evils. Kenny is violent and doesn't have an off-switch. Jane is mysterious, manipulative and only truly looks out for herself. I chose to let Kenny survive because I didn't want Clem to go as low as him, to kill another human. I then let him take Clem to Wellington because he at least had a better idea of where to go than she did. At least he sacrifices himself when you get there.
Still, I do see your point. I don't find any one ending to season 2 as being wholly satisfactory, as none of the endings are a happy ending for Clementine, really
Proven survivalist my ass. If you are alone you will took care for yourself only and not to think who to save and who to dump. You will cover more miles if you are out and not watch out for others or save their ass.
Except....He didn't take care of Clem when she was dying of the cold. He started beating up Arvo again. It was Jane who saved and started the fire for Clem. Kenny completely ignores Clem dying. It's all good and well that Kenny cares for Clem and wants to protect her, but what someone wants to do doesn't help me much in the ZA. It's the same as saying you want to give a starving man food, a starving man who you want to protect and care for, then you decide it'd be much more fun to throw the food away. It does nothing to help the situation.
That depends. Did he reach Wellington with Clem? Did he maroon himself to the icy wilderness in order to make sure Clem and AJ was safe behind the walls? If so, then yes... Unless you killed him. Unless you refused him.
We can't really blame Arvo for Luke's death. Sure, Arvo brought them over the ice, but that was because throughout the whole journey Kenny was beating him and yelling about how they weren't getting there fast enough. If it were you in Arvo's spot, would you have really taken the chance going around? Then we have to ask ourselves, would Kenny really have let that? From all we've seen with Kenny, I'd say no. He would want the quickest path.
Yes, Kenny cares, he wants to keep people safe. But wishes aren't going to keep Clem or AJ alive. Don't get me wrong, Arvo isn't guiltless in what he does, but mistakes are expected from everyone. I don't hate people for their mistakes.\ I never hated Kenny for his mistakes either, I went against Kenny when he refused to learn from those mistakes. Sure, he's always sorry, but again, what does sorry really get me? Without improvement (and don't lie, he showed no improvement) I might as well be signing my death contract.
That's exactly the point why Jane chooses only Clem to come with her, not anybody else because Clem has proven several times that she can look after herself and that she won't be a burden to save her ass. There are several dialogues between Clem and Jane about that specific topic of Solo-vs-Team and at one point Jane admits that there are situations in which you want to have someone to have your back.
Sure, you can go on with that die-hard-sole-survivor-attitude but it's not as efficient and thus irrational if you have the opportunity to team up with someone capable.
But it was still Arvo's fault though.
They had to wrap his storyline up since he was so involved in it and for what it's worth, I think they did a good job of it. Kenny was consistent throughout the season with him slowly growing into greater and greater fits of rage and instability until he finally exploded. Now that his story is resolved, again and thank goodness, we can move on in season 3.
Again, I ask "how so?" because he walked over the ice? Kenny wanted him to walk over the ice. Kenny would have kicked his ass if he didn't/ What was he supposed to do? He would be thinking about himself, not the people abusing him. I gave valid points on why it wasn't Arvo's fault. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't really make more points when I've already gave reasons why one couldn't blame Arvo. Indirectly, it would be a stretch to say it was Arvo's fault. He certainly didn't deserve a beating for it. He didn't directly break the ice. He didn't push Luke down, or stop anyone from saving Luke. Luke's death isn't anyone's fault (except...ya know... the writers).
He just lost Sarita a day ago (Edit: Two days ago). He's still broken after being beaten nearly to death by Carver. Carlos mentioned possible psychological damage when describing his condition. He's not stable, and he knows it. He explains to Clem that he can't trust himself once they reach Wellington, and that he's ashamed of what he had put Clem through. I don't believe Kenny was purposefully neglecting Clem's failing health.
Ok,call kenny "manniac" and "crazy".He did what HAD TO BE DONE in order to protect clementine and AJ.He lost 1 eye for Clementine..The welligton ending shows you his real face.Maybe kenny was insane,maybe kenny was out of controll.But he became like this in order to protect the ones he loves..Im sure he doesnt want to lose more people he loves.Duck,Katja,Sarita and Lee were enough.He changed in a "darker" personality because in a shitty world like this the only thing you have left is family.You should show no mercy for anyone that is a threat to you and your loved ones.
Kenny only seemed abrasive in groups because he was a lawful good paladin in parties full of chaotic neutral rogues. Kenny never lied and always did what he thought was best, even if you didn't necessarily agree with it. You've confused poison with chemotherapy.
Yes, Kenny made a sacrifice to save Clem, once. I can't think of any other time he explicitly did anything for her. He may have said so, but his actions spoke louder. Kenny went crazy, and he was out of control. His being out of control for his family is precisely what put them in danger in the first place. His rashness could have killed them in the truck if he hasn't been knocked out. It could have killed Clem with the ice if Jane hadn't been there. He had good intentions, but the simply truth? He wasn't leader. He wanted to be, but he didn't have the traits to be a good one. Saying he did what had to be done then yelling at others to do the same is hypocritical. Jane did what had to be done. Luke did what had to be done. Arvo did what had to be done. It's a very poor excuse to say everything is fine. Everyone in the apocalypse "did what had to be done." They did what they thought was right. Kenny caused a lot of death, personally I didn't agree with the way he did things, I never have and never will. I don't like people who act purely on emotion without thinking of the consequences. Kenny reminded me of an abusive boyfriend at the end there, and that scared me. I was afraid he would hurt Clem.
No ones actions in TWD are ever black and white, no one is ever going to be 'right.' The truth is the ZA makes people go insane, there is no way to stop that. When you see that much death and lose that many people, it's over. Sooner or later. But personally, I wasn't mad at Jane. I never saw her as wrong. She often said what I was thinking, and I felt my Clem looked up to her and I thought my chances with her were best. She also reminded me a bit of myself. Am I sad I had to shoot Kenny? A little bit, but I saw it coming. I saw it coming sooner or later since S1 and I knew when I saw him in S2 he couldn't continue. I won't even begin to argue the whole 'he did what had to be done' because, that's not fully truth. Often, he did what shouldn't have been done and what could have risked other peoples lives due to his anger.
Kenny's love for Clem OR Aj matters little if he can't control himself to protect them, which he's shown time and time again, he can't.
No, neither do I. I don't think Kenny was a bad person. I think he DID love Clem, but that doesn't change what I'm saying. He isn't fit to look after them, and his abuse is still NOT okay. I'll use Norman Bates as an example, he was abused and insane but not by his own doing. he was a good, sweet boy and liked to help people, but he lost it, and he hurt people. He didn't get a free pass. Neither does Kenny. I say again: wishes and wants don't do anything for me in the ZA.
I know that seems cruel of me, and it is, somewhat, but accepting that as a downfall will only get me killed. The moment Jane is unable to keep me safe due to grief is the moment I'll leave her too, and I'd give Aj to someone safer if I became like that as well. I'd have left Lee too, if he couldn't contribute properly. Love or not, I want to survive. Clem is an eleven year old girl, it shouldn't be her job to protect Kenny while making sure he thinks he's protecting her so he doesn't go off. Not to mention all the people I felt I had to betray and piss off just to keep him happy.
You're right. Kenny is unfit to look after the kids, and he knows this. That's why he gave them up to Wellington, that is if you let him.
I don't see how "Kenny = Poison" if Kenny was willing to let Clem and AJ go to a safe haven if it meant his own demise.