Travestron this game shows us how life would be in the ZA, they made it pretty good in my opinion. I couldn't kill Kenny, no way..
But Clem had to get away from him for her and the babys own good. And the ending was so perfect, cry everytime...
To be clear,both of them aren't completely right in the head ever since the argument started,but I'm sick of telling Kenny to calm the fuck down,Telltale should stop making this game as Kenny Therapist simulation ever since episode 3.
Couldn't agree more, I was starting to warm up to Jane/slowly forgive her as the episode went on but that stunt with the baby showed how unstable and selfish she truly is. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Because it was becoming to the point where all the provocation made by them is ridiculous,liking a character or think he's the best is one thing,but start strutting and stomping on others then there's gonna be a problem.
If I believed that any one of you forum members had killed a baby. Regardless of my emotional attachment to it. I'd do to you war worse than Kenny did to Jane.
Wow. So it's not, "if you killed a baby", it's "if I BELIEVED you killed a baby". So you just admitted you'd be a murderer based on personal feelings, and apparently nothing else. Kenny would be proud, indeed.
His plans and ideas are always sound.
Only in theory, and that's his problem, as Rebecca correctly pointed out. He doesn't think things through to the end. The guy's original plan to get out of Howe's was to have them improvise their way out of a walker herd. The fact that he gets so easily angered when people don't bow to his every whim and command is also his problem. That's not a sign of having feelings hurt because he's "just trying to help", that's a sign of being completely self-centered.
Just because so many people are in denial that they would act the same in the same situation
Um, that's not the issue at all. Considering what you would do is certainly a valid assessment of a situation, but when it comes to judging characters in a fictional work, we judge them based on their merits first and foremost. Hell, just above you vilify Jane and Ben for looking out for themselves in a dangerous situation, and yet that's a very realistic human thing to do as well. Are you not also guilty of not wanting to admit your own failings as a human? Oh, wait, that's not how it works, is it? Because everyone is different and you can't really say how people would act without evidence.
He's selfless, looking out for everyone.
You kinda contradict this when you say immediately after that he only wants the kids safe. Yes, it's an honorable goal, but it speaks to Kenny's true character as far as keeping groups safe goes, which is that he looks out for those he cares about first and foremost, and hell with everyone else if they don't bend to his will. That was practically his philosophy in both seasons.
you can't survive long in this world if you only care about your own survival.
Which is funny because Telltale seemed adamant on justifying the Crawford point of view back in Amid the Ruins. But in the end, it's all a matter of circumstance, really. Plenty of people who cared about others over themselves have lived short lives going into the apocalypse and died horrible deaths. And quite a few selfish assholes will no doubt have carried on and persevered to create villains for the future.
Couldn't agree more, I was starting to warm up to Jane/slowly forgive her as the episode went on but that stunt with the baby showed how unstable and selfish she truly is. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Jane left with the baby to get it to safety, she was not looking after number one at all. Clem has proven herself, that darned lazy less than a month old baby hasn't bothered to kill a single zombir yet. Out of the two who was really in more danger?
Was Jane supposed to leave the baby to help Clem? The fact she came back at all and kept the baby 'relatively' safe means she wasnt after number one. Else she would have left them both.
She said it was an accident about the baby, she'd been shown warming to it earlier on ib the episode so I never believed she would have killed AJ. She couldn't say he was still alive because as she said to Clem, Kenny would never let AJ go, and he was a danger to AJas well. His blind fits of rage made it very possible he'd get his whole group killed.
Jane didn't leave them in cold blood. Cold blood suggests she doesn't care. She obviously cares about people and even humanity a lot. She's afraid. She dragged her sister four states, each morning her sister refused to get up until Jane practically forced her. There was a point in time in which they had to jump across buildings. Jane, nearly crying tells you "What could I do? I couldn't... I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her... I gave her what she wanted. I left." She left because she couldn't sit there and die too. The same was about to happen with Sarah.
You're thinking of the needs of one before the needs of all. In that situation Jane was being a realist and a good leader. As a leader sometimes we have to understand that we can't make people try. For instance, S1 Lee let that woman at the inn shoot herself. Did that make him a bad person? No, even though Glen didn't agree with him, and Lily was disgusted. In the end, Lee chose to let that woman make the choice for herself. That's only fair. No matter how precious a gift life is, we can't force it on people.,
When Jane talked about Kenny's family,I wanted to shoot her..She was crossing the line.I thought Jane left the baby so she can escape.She knew Kenny's situation but yet she still tried to piss him off.Im not saying Kenny is an Angel,he should've tried to listen to her(but both me and Kenny thought jane killed AJ.)Also jane stabbed him at the stomach.The situation was so f*cked to be honest,I could see something like this would happen since from their argument in the car.
I like your first sentence. I think that's the main problem with all these Kenny lovers in here. They have the same lunatic mindset as him and would randomly kill people on make believe. It's quite sad actually that even without a situation of a threatening zombie apocalypse, people are perfectly fine with such ridiculous behavior.
Not at all. I hate them both now.
If I believed that any one of you forum members had killed a baby. Regardless of my emotional attach… morement to it. I'd do to you war worse than Kenny did to Jane.
Wow. So it's not, "if you killed a baby", it's "if I BELIEVED you killed a baby". So you just admitted you'd be a murderer based on personal feelings, and apparently nothing else. Kenny would be proud, indeed.
His plans and ideas are always sound.
Only in theory, and that's his problem, as Rebecca correctly pointed out. He doesn't think things through to the end. The guy's original plan to get out of Howe's was to have them improvise their way out of a walker herd. The fact that he gets so easily angered when people don't bow to his every whim and command is also his problem. That's not a sign of having feelings hurt because he's "just trying to help", that's a sign of being completely self-centered.
Just because so ma… [view original content]
I dont condone what she did. She didnt even condone what she did. She admitted it was stupid. But I understood why she did it. Sooner or later, Kenny was going to crack and get someone killed. But people sure do condone everything Kenny does including murder.
No, Jane directly tells you, "I've never killed a real person before....I tried to pretend he was a walker." (My Clem said: "He was a bad man. He was trying to kill us") to which Jane responds: "I know... But it still feels wrong."
I think the difference between Kenny and Jane is that Kenny would lay his life down for the kids. Jane laid down her life for Clem and others multiple times. She's the one who pulled Clem from freezing water while Kenny beat on Arvo. She could have lost her arm for that, or even fallen in and drowned herself. She started the fire for Clem too. She came back to save the group when they were being robbed when she heard the gunshot. She helped Clem to save Luke and Sarah. She went down to save Sarah on the deck if you wanted her too as well. I'm sorry, I simply can't see where you're coming from.
She even left her sister to die rather than try and talk her round. Or carry her out. I think you misunderstand what happened in that situation. Jane states, again directly, that she "carried her [sister] for four states, every morning she told me she wanted to give up, that she wasn't coming." then she tells you they had to jump buildings and her sister refused to jump across. She then says (distraught, in tears, and choking back sobs) "What could I do? I couldn't....I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her. So I gave her what she wanted. I left." It's cruel to suggest Jane has the power to save everyone and when she doesn't she's somehow cold-hearted. No matter how much I loved someone, I wouldn't lie down and die with them. It would hurt like hell, but I would have left too.
So when she starts trying to turn Clem against the one person who would give his life for her, just so she gets to try again with little sister 2.0 I don't think she was trying to 'turn Clem into sister 2.0' there was no real suggestion of that. I got the impression she saw Clem resembled her (her sister was weak of will, although she'd never say so). She wanted to protect Clem, and didn't understand what to do. She obviously wasn't good with people or vulnerability. Kenny also wasn't the only one willing to lie down his like. Luke, Jane, and Bonnie (in some cases) were all willing to die for Clem as well. Besides, even if Jane did see Clem as her sister, how is that any different than what Kenny was doing to both Clem and AJ? he calls Clem Duck by accident, then later says he'll raise AJ better than Duck. He compared both of them to his son. This isn't uncommon with people, and it's not wrong. neither of them are at fault for seeing Clem as a kind of 'second chance.' It's a hard thing to understand, but sometimes when we lose people that's our way of justifying why it's okay we might be hurt again. It's a lot easier losing someone you already lost than it is to lose someone new. I know from experience.
I liked Jane, I liked Kenny. I agreed with most of Kenny's choices and defended him even when I wasn't sure it was right, I liked him and trusted him more then anyone. But when I saw him beating Arvo to near death I thought damn he is really losing it. He has been losing it more and more through out the season. I have always liked Kenny but he went too far, Jane said it was an accident, He didn't know it was anything but an accident. Jane wanted Clem to go with her. She don't trust Kenny and wanted Clem to see how far he had gone. I was close to letting Kenny kill her, But I couldn't I shot him. I didn't want to but I had to. Jane said she didn't want it to go that far. Kenny also says he didn't want to kill her. They both lost control. Both of them hated eachother and wanted Clem and Alvin JR. They wanted to get rid of eachother. They were both insane. I left Jane. I am better off with the baby then with two crazy people. I loved the Wellington ending and it proved Kenny card, But so did Jane. But the way they both acted was not right.
I understand why she did it, and she never put AJ in any direct harm, so what she did is completely fine to me. She showed no signs of wanting to fight. She said it was an accident instead of something deliberate. If this situation was real, then Kenny wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As I said in another thread, it's very realistic that a situation like this can happen down the road. Clementine, being Kenny's friend, and Kenny's fans, being Kenny fans, like him too much to see this simple fact. Sure, they got to Wellington, but what would've happened if they ran out of baby food, as the game was implying? Who would Kenny take his anger out on? Would he stop before someone else died? According to this situation, no.
This was the only way Jane was going to be able to show this simple and important fact.
No, Jane directly tells you, "I've never killed a real person before....I tried to pretend he was a walker." (My Clem said: "He was a bad ma… moren. He was trying to kill us") to which Jane responds: "I know... But it still feels wrong."
I think the difference between Kenny and Jane is that Kenny would lay his life down for the kids. Jane laid down her life for Clem and others multiple times. She's the one who pulled Clem from freezing water while Kenny beat on Arvo. She could have lost her arm for that, or even fallen in and drowned herself. She started the fire for Clem too. She came back to save the group when they were being robbed when she heard the gunshot. She helped Clem to save Luke and Sarah. She went down to save Sarah on the deck if you wanted her too as well. I'm sorry, I simply can't see where you're coming from.
She even left her sister to die rather than try and talk her round. Or carry her out. I think you misunderstand what … [view original content]
You can say the same the same about Kenny haters thinking it's fine to put a baby and themselves in danger just to prove a point and trying to create a villain out of someone.
I like your first sentence. I think that's the main problem with all these Kenny lovers in here. They have the same lunatic mindset as him a… morend would randomly kill people on make believe. It's quite sad actually that even without a situation of a threatening zombie apocalypse, people are perfectly fine with such ridiculous behavior.
Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. You could say she didn't finish him off, that's true. But she didn't finish off the Ruskie either, Kenny did.
No, Jane directly tells you, "I've never killed a real person before....I tried to pretend he was a walker." (My Clem said: "He was a bad ma… moren. He was trying to kill us") to which Jane responds: "I know... But it still feels wrong."
I think the difference between Kenny and Jane is that Kenny would lay his life down for the kids. Jane laid down her life for Clem and others multiple times. She's the one who pulled Clem from freezing water while Kenny beat on Arvo. She could have lost her arm for that, or even fallen in and drowned herself. She started the fire for Clem too. She came back to save the group when they were being robbed when she heard the gunshot. She helped Clem to save Luke and Sarah. She went down to save Sarah on the deck if you wanted her too as well. I'm sorry, I simply can't see where you're coming from.
She even left her sister to die rather than try and talk her round. Or carry her out. I think you misunderstand what … [view original content]
You see, that's the point you don't get. It wasn't about her "proving a point" (I don't know why people always come up with that nonsense, Jane is a pragmatic and down to earth person), it was about getting Clem to realize that Kenny is losing it and didn't want Clem to join him in his demise. He was constantly putting people into danger with his behavior and even brought the group to split up. She saw that Clem was caught between what's reasonable and her past with Kenny. Jane, a loner who is "supposed" to not give a shit about anyone else, puts herself in danger to save Clem. She didn't "create a villain", Kenny was turning himself into one and everyone saw that, including Clem. Jane's "normal" behavior would have been to leave Clem to her own downfall instead of intervening, but she didn't because she knew what would happen eventually.
You can say the same the same about Kenny haters thinking it's fine to put a baby and themselves in danger just to prove a point and trying to create a villain out of someone.
So she was expecting a calm reaction from Kenny by making the guy assume she killed a baby. Really good plan, might as well shoot clementine i mean she would get a similar reaction out of it.
Not on make believe. You hurt a baby. Or I believe you have hurt that baby because you told me you did I will hurt you. Badly.
It's just who I am. I protect my family, and those weaker than me.
If you were to come up to me, and all but admit you killed a child to save yourself (which is what Jane implied) especially one that I had desperately been doing everything to keep alive in a hopeless situation. Yes I would
I like your first sentence. I think that's the main problem with all these Kenny lovers in here. They have the same lunatic mindset as him a… morend would randomly kill people on make believe. It's quite sad actually that even without a situation of a threatening zombie apocalypse, people are perfectly fine with such ridiculous behavior.
I dont condone what she did. She didnt even condone what she did. She admitted it was stupid. But I understood why she did it. Sooner or lat… moreer, Kenny was going to crack and get someone killed. But people sure do condone everything Kenny does including murder.
So what about the next person Jane doesn't agree with? She either abandons them or kills them. But I guess that's ok?
Jane is out for Jane. At least Kenny cared about the group. The first thing he does when he spins the car is ask if Jane is ok.
He then goes to look for fuel. To keep the car going. The car he fixed and used for the whole group I mean. He could've just left them all...
And what does Jane do? As soon as she heats gun shots, she wants to leave him to die.
Not someone I want anywhere near me in the ZA!
I understand why she did it, and she never put AJ in any direct harm, so what she did is completely fine to me. She showed no signs of wanti… moreng to fight. She said it was an accident instead of something deliberate. If this situation was real, then Kenny wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As I said in another thread, it's very realistic that a situation like this can happen down the road. Clementine, being Kenny's friend, and Kenny's fans, being Kenny fans, like him too much to see this simple fact. Sure, they got to Wellington, but what would've happened if they ran out of baby food, as the game was implying? Who would Kenny take his anger out on? Would he stop before someone else died? According to this situation, no.
This was the only way Jane was going to be able to show this simple and important fact.
But it wasn't self defence! Jane baked Kenny into a corner. If she hadn't pretended she had gotten the baby killed. He never would've fought her! That was never self defence. She wanted to kill him.
So she was expecting a calm reaction from Kenny by making the guy assume she killed a baby. Really good plan, might as well shoot clementine i mean she would get a similar reaction out of it.
Edit-NVM.
Well that isnt actually true. I didnt choose jane because I hate Kenny. I loved him...and I know all the violent things he does, he do because he wanted to save me and AJ. But it's not okay. I'm sorry it's not okay to hurt everyone else, to save me and AJ. the other people just didnt care him. He was a great character and I...was crying liek hell when I shot him...but he was too dangerous. Acting or not, he was trying to kill Jane. He would kill anyone if someone would lose AJ or Clem. Hell he scared me almost to death when sarita died. Janes acting was like "I'm sorry the baby died" and those things happend sadly in such a apocalypse. Kennys answer to this was, to kill her for that. And thats not the answer in my opinion. I was damn angry at Jane when I found out and even if I go with her I would never forgive her...but sadly she was right about him.
She may still be capable of caring about people, but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither admirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have, unless you want your leader to be Carver.
Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. That's not what Sarah wanted, Sarah was just incapable of understanding what was going on around her in that moment. But the clincher is when you do save Sarah the first time, and she gets trapped under the rubble later and is clearly screaming for help, Jane immediately says they should just leave her because she wasn't getting out of that. That's not being a realist, that's giving up on a child about to die so you don't risk yourself. Letting Irene shoot herself is entirely different from Sarah's case. She was bitten and doomed to a slow death, so she chose to opt out and be with her family. Lee has the option to choose to let her give up because there's no point in fighting against the inevitable.
Jane didn't leave them in cold blood. Cold blood suggests she doesn't care. She obviously cares about people and even humanity a lot. She's … moreafraid. She dragged her sister four states, each morning her sister refused to get up until Jane practically forced her. There was a point in time in which they had to jump across buildings. Jane, nearly crying tells you "What could I do? I couldn't... I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her... I gave her what she wanted. I left." She left because she couldn't sit there and die too. The same was about to happen with Sarah.
You're thinking of the needs of one before the needs of all. In that situation Jane was being a realist and a good leader. As a leader sometimes we have to understand that we can't make people try. For instance, S1 Lee let that woman at the inn shoot herself. Did that make him a bad person? No, even though Glen didn't agree with him, and Lily was disgusted. In the end, Lee chose to… [view original content]
You are contradicting yourself. Jane never said that she killed or hurt the baby. She explicitly talks of an accident. You sound just as mad as Kenny who hurts or kills people based on stuff fabricated in your own colorful fantasy. I'm sorry, but if what you say is true, then you are a threat to everyone around you and should consider professional help.
Not on make believe. You hurt a baby. Or I believe you have hurt that baby because you told me you did I will hurt you. Badly.
It's just wh… moreo I am. I protect my family, and those weaker than me.
If you were to come up to me, and all but admit you killed a child to save yourself (which is what Jane implied) especially one that I had desperately been doing everything to keep alive in a hopeless situation. Yes I would
So she was expecting a calm reaction from Kenny by making the guy assume she killed a baby. Really good plan, might as well shoot clementine i mean she would get a similar reaction out of it.
Edit-NVM.
jane is a psycho the part when kenny goes to get fuel from the cars she says .. "clem we could leave right now," then clem says what abot Aj… more and then "look i now u are close to him but kenny would never let him go"
SHE WANTED TO LEAVE A CHILD BEHIND
She wasn't trying to 'off' Kenny, more convince Clem that Kenny is seriously unstable.
She explains, when you save her, that she wanted to show Clem that she didn't HAVE to stay with Kenny. If she planned to kill him, she wouldn't need to prove that, she'd just do it.
She also puts away her knife, and Kenny attacks her again. She basically said 'right, that's enough' and he slammed her into a window.
So what about the next person Jane doesn't agree with? She either abandons them or kills them. But I guess that's ok?
Jane is out for Jane.… more At least Kenny cared about the group. The first thing he does when he spins the car is ask if Jane is ok.
He then goes to look for fuel. To keep the car going. The car he fixed and used for the whole group I mean. He could've just left them all...
And what does Jane do? As soon as she heats gun shots, she wants to leave him to die.
Not someone I want anywhere near me in the ZA!
I didn't choose Jane because my Clem hates Kenny. I chose her because as far as I knew, Kenny just tried to kill Jane for losing a baby accidentally.
Regardless of whether that was the truth, what if Clem really DID lose the baby accidentally later? He could well go that crazy again, and this time in Clem.
Also, the people saying she's selfish are kind of crazy. Every single thing she does in episode 5 is to try to protect Clem/. Regardless of whether she is mislead, the fact is that she was trying to do what's best for her. Which isn't what seflishness is.
It doesn't makes it any better, looking at the self-centered, manipulative background jane had even if it did was an accident, you couldn't really know for sure if she was saying the truth or she just left the baby there as bait to save herself from zombies.
Im guessing the possible death of AJ was not that big on some players because the baby was only in the game for 2 episodes, but im pretty sure if it was clem instead of the baby you would've shot jane no questions asked.
but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither admirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have There is a difference between 'throwing it away' and surviving. You can't force people to live, a leader understands that. It's sad and it's hard, but you can't risk the lives of everyone and yourself for someone who wants to die. It's cruel to everyone and that person. I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, leaders have to make this hard choice all the time, and the fact that Jane is willing to make it speaks volume on her strength.
Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. If Jane hadn't decided to leave they all would have died. Luke had been trying for hours, as he tells us. I'm not saying Jane is a good person for this, but this is the ZA they're not sitting in a convenient store or in the normal world where things can be okay.
She was bitten and doomed to a slow death, so she chose to opt out and be with her family. Lee has the option to choose to let her give up because there's no point in fighting against the inevitable. But see, that IS the same thing. It was realistic, and the realism of it was cruel. Sarah wasn't going to get up from that, you would have died to get her out, and then if you got her out, then what? She's wounded and there's tons of zombies down there, how do you plan on getting her up? That mixed with Sarah's comatose state, that wasn't going to be the first time Sarah was going to turn 'off' essentially. I liked Sarah, I wanted to save her, I did save her the first time and I proved Jane wrong, but by the second time I knew she wasn't going to live, and to send another person down was wrong.
A leader things of the whole, not one small piece of pie. To risk someone else's life to save one girl who would later die anyway would be bad leadership, no matter how humane. in the ZA being a leader isn't about brownie points, and it's certainly not about being humane. It's being the one who everyone hates because you say the cold truth of the matter.
My point remains, Jane does care about people, she doesn't 'throw that away' but she's already said she's seen this over and over. Why would she risk more lives for a replay? That's quite literally the definition of insanity. No, it's not pretty, and yes I would have loved for Sarah to survive and get better, but let's be realistic... It wasn't going to happy. Carlos signed her death certificate the moment he decided to hide her from the world.
I do agree with your point that Irene (Wow, I'm surprised you remembered the name lool) AND Sarah aren't exactly the same thing, Sarah wanted to live, yes, but she wasn't trying to, and that still changes things. Saddened by her father or not, the harshness of the world won't slow down and wait for her, just as it didn't for Clem, it's be silly to suggest the group does. That'd only get them all killed, and Jane (and I) knew that.
She may still be capable of caring about people, but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither … moreadmirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have, unless you want your leader to be Carver.
Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. That's not what Sarah wanted, Sarah was just incapable of understanding what was going on around her in that moment. But the clincher is when you do save Sarah the first time, and she gets trapped under the rubble later and is clearly screaming for help, Jane immediately says they should just leave her because she wasn't getting out of that. That's not being a realist, that's giving up on a child about to die so you don't risk yourse… [view original content]
I've never killed someone who hasn't wrong me in some way. Yes, she did say that. I'm aware. That's not to say she was upset about saving the group though. That obviously meant she didn't enjoy harming people unless she was provoked. I take it as a good thing. It's good to feel remorse for hurting people, even if that's hard in the ZA.
Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. That's a technicality though, and that is a huge difference, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'll use batman as an example (stay with me here, it's relevant xD) Batman doesn't kill people, but in an episode when a train is about to crash the bad guy looks his way, smirks and says "You can't kill me." Batmans reply is simply "No, but I don't have to save you either." That's all Jane did. She didn't save Troy, and that's easier on the conscience than truly being the way to drain someone's life. Truly killing someone is very hard, walking away from someone can make you feel better (even if you're still killing someone).
I am aware I left out that line, because I forgot to mention it and decided not to edit it in, I thought my point still conveyed well enough that someone would understand that line wasn't meant to show Jane as a killer or cold blooded (especially with the tone of her voice and body language, which says she's feels bad for killing a man).
Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. You could say she didn't finish him off, that's true. But she didn't finish off the Ruskie either, Kenny did.
I don't think Jane planned for Kenny to die, but yes, I agree they're both unstable in their own way. I feel Jane is less so than Kenny, as she's closed herself off, but sooner or later she'll become what he became and it'll be her time too. And while we're at it, if Clem doesn't watch herself she'll become dead inside too. It's a hard world. People like Luke and Lee are pretty rare, able to stand all that hardship and still love and feel as strongly as before. I praise them, because they both managed to survive and understand what had to be done, but they didn't take things out of hand. I think they were both the best leaders you could have had. The only problem with Luke was he was still young, and obviously somewhat inexperienced in leading, he still did very well though.
What a needlessly provocative thread title.
Personally I thought every scene from the 'house' onwards showed just how unstable and danger… moreous both of them are. Kenny was a bomb waiting to go off, and clearly capable of anything, even trying to shame Clem's lack of bloodlust when she doesn't like him beating Arvo to a pulp. Meanwhile Jane was manipulative and just as ruthless, just as vicious as Kenny in the fight, and forces Clem to shoot him if you save her. She claims she never meant it to go that far, but wasn't that the point of her little stunt - to prove just what Kenny was capable of? She also risked the baby's life.
Neither of them seems to be in the right in my opinion.
Travestron this game shows us how life would be in the ZA, they made it pretty good in my opinion. I couldn't kill Kenny, no way..
But Cle… morem had to get away from him for her and the babys own good. And the ending was so perfect, cry everytime...
I know all can't like it but it is what it is.
Comments
Travestron this game shows us how life would be in the ZA, they made it pretty good in my opinion. I couldn't kill Kenny, no way..
But Clem had to get away from him for her and the babys own good. And the ending was so perfect, cry everytime...
I know all can't like it but it is what it is.
Couldn't agree more, I was starting to warm up to Jane/slowly forgive her as the episode went on but that stunt with the baby showed how unstable and selfish she truly is. Couldn't have said it better myself.
you can watch a vid when he was going to get some gas u will see
Not at all. I hate them both now.
Wow. So it's not, "if you killed a baby", it's "if I BELIEVED you killed a baby". So you just admitted you'd be a murderer based on personal feelings, and apparently nothing else. Kenny would be proud, indeed.
Only in theory, and that's his problem, as Rebecca correctly pointed out. He doesn't think things through to the end. The guy's original plan to get out of Howe's was to have them improvise their way out of a walker herd. The fact that he gets so easily angered when people don't bow to his every whim and command is also his problem. That's not a sign of having feelings hurt because he's "just trying to help", that's a sign of being completely self-centered.
Um, that's not the issue at all. Considering what you would do is certainly a valid assessment of a situation, but when it comes to judging characters in a fictional work, we judge them based on their merits first and foremost. Hell, just above you vilify Jane and Ben for looking out for themselves in a dangerous situation, and yet that's a very realistic human thing to do as well. Are you not also guilty of not wanting to admit your own failings as a human? Oh, wait, that's not how it works, is it? Because everyone is different and you can't really say how people would act without evidence.
You kinda contradict this when you say immediately after that he only wants the kids safe. Yes, it's an honorable goal, but it speaks to Kenny's true character as far as keeping groups safe goes, which is that he looks out for those he cares about first and foremost, and hell with everyone else if they don't bend to his will. That was practically his philosophy in both seasons.
Which is funny because Telltale seemed adamant on justifying the Crawford point of view back in Amid the Ruins. But in the end, it's all a matter of circumstance, really. Plenty of people who cared about others over themselves have lived short lives going into the apocalypse and died horrible deaths. And quite a few selfish assholes will no doubt have carried on and persevered to create villains for the future.
Exactly. She used that as the perfect opportunity to off Kenny.
Jane left with the baby to get it to safety, she was not looking after number one at all. Clem has proven herself, that darned lazy less than a month old baby hasn't bothered to kill a single zombir yet. Out of the two who was really in more danger?
Was Jane supposed to leave the baby to help Clem? The fact she came back at all and kept the baby 'relatively' safe means she wasnt after number one. Else she would have left them both.
She said it was an accident about the baby, she'd been shown warming to it earlier on ib the episode so I never believed she would have killed AJ. She couldn't say he was still alive because as she said to Clem, Kenny would never let AJ go, and he was a danger to AJas well. His blind fits of rage made it very possible he'd get his whole group killed.
Jane didn't leave them in cold blood. Cold blood suggests she doesn't care. She obviously cares about people and even humanity a lot. She's afraid. She dragged her sister four states, each morning her sister refused to get up until Jane practically forced her. There was a point in time in which they had to jump across buildings. Jane, nearly crying tells you "What could I do? I couldn't... I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her... I gave her what she wanted. I left." She left because she couldn't sit there and die too. The same was about to happen with Sarah.
You're thinking of the needs of one before the needs of all. In that situation Jane was being a realist and a good leader. As a leader sometimes we have to understand that we can't make people try. For instance, S1 Lee let that woman at the inn shoot herself. Did that make him a bad person? No, even though Glen didn't agree with him, and Lily was disgusted. In the end, Lee chose to let that woman make the choice for herself. That's only fair. No matter how precious a gift life is, we can't force it on people.,
When Jane talked about Kenny's family,I wanted to shoot her..She was crossing the line.I thought Jane left the baby so she can escape.She knew Kenny's situation but yet she still tried to piss him off.Im not saying Kenny is an Angel,he should've tried to listen to her(but both me and Kenny thought jane killed AJ.)Also jane stabbed him at the stomach.The situation was so f*cked to be honest,I could see something like this would happen since from their argument in the car.
Jane is right! Kenny was broken with groups! he just wanted to be the leader of every group he met.... I hate kenny for that!!
I saved Jane and forgave her cause Clem alone will die, and also cause i like Jane, and i think that Clem with her will be safe
I like your first sentence. I think that's the main problem with all these Kenny lovers in here. They have the same lunatic mindset as him and would randomly kill people on make believe. It's quite sad actually that even without a situation of a threatening zombie apocalypse, people are perfectly fine with such ridiculous behavior.
Not a Kenny hater, and I do condone what Jane did. It's so funny that someone has to hate Kenny just to agree with Jane LOL!!
I dont condone what she did. She didnt even condone what she did. She admitted it was stupid. But I understood why she did it. Sooner or later, Kenny was going to crack and get someone killed. But people sure do condone everything Kenny does including murder.
No, Jane directly tells you, "I've never killed a real person before....I tried to pretend he was a walker." (My Clem said: "He was a bad man. He was trying to kill us") to which Jane responds: "I know... But it still feels wrong."
I think the difference between Kenny and Jane is that Kenny would lay his life down for the kids. Jane laid down her life for Clem and others multiple times. She's the one who pulled Clem from freezing water while Kenny beat on Arvo. She could have lost her arm for that, or even fallen in and drowned herself. She started the fire for Clem too. She came back to save the group when they were being robbed when she heard the gunshot. She helped Clem to save Luke and Sarah. She went down to save Sarah on the deck if you wanted her too as well. I'm sorry, I simply can't see where you're coming from.
She even left her sister to die rather than try and talk her round. Or carry her out. I think you misunderstand what happened in that situation. Jane states, again directly, that she "carried her [sister] for four states, every morning she told me she wanted to give up, that she wasn't coming." then she tells you they had to jump buildings and her sister refused to jump across. She then says (distraught, in tears, and choking back sobs) "What could I do? I couldn't....I couldn't throw her. I couldn't make her. So I gave her what she wanted. I left." It's cruel to suggest Jane has the power to save everyone and when she doesn't she's somehow cold-hearted. No matter how much I loved someone, I wouldn't lie down and die with them. It would hurt like hell, but I would have left too.
So when she starts trying to turn Clem against the one person who would give his life for her, just so she gets to try again with little sister 2.0 I don't think she was trying to 'turn Clem into sister 2.0' there was no real suggestion of that. I got the impression she saw Clem resembled her (her sister was weak of will, although she'd never say so). She wanted to protect Clem, and didn't understand what to do. She obviously wasn't good with people or vulnerability. Kenny also wasn't the only one willing to lie down his like. Luke, Jane, and Bonnie (in some cases) were all willing to die for Clem as well. Besides, even if Jane did see Clem as her sister, how is that any different than what Kenny was doing to both Clem and AJ? he calls Clem Duck by accident, then later says he'll raise AJ better than Duck. He compared both of them to his son. This isn't uncommon with people, and it's not wrong. neither of them are at fault for seeing Clem as a kind of 'second chance.' It's a hard thing to understand, but sometimes when we lose people that's our way of justifying why it's okay we might be hurt again. It's a lot easier losing someone you already lost than it is to lose someone new. I know from experience.
I liked Jane, I liked Kenny. I agreed with most of Kenny's choices and defended him even when I wasn't sure it was right, I liked him and trusted him more then anyone. But when I saw him beating Arvo to near death I thought damn he is really losing it. He has been losing it more and more through out the season. I have always liked Kenny but he went too far, Jane said it was an accident, He didn't know it was anything but an accident. Jane wanted Clem to go with her. She don't trust Kenny and wanted Clem to see how far he had gone. I was close to letting Kenny kill her, But I couldn't I shot him. I didn't want to but I had to. Jane said she didn't want it to go that far. Kenny also says he didn't want to kill her. They both lost control. Both of them hated eachother and wanted Clem and Alvin JR. They wanted to get rid of eachother. They were both insane. I left Jane. I am better off with the baby then with two crazy people. I loved the Wellington ending and it proved Kenny card, But so did Jane. But the way they both acted was not right.
I understand why she did it, and she never put AJ in any direct harm, so what she did is completely fine to me. She showed no signs of wanting to fight. She said it was an accident instead of something deliberate. If this situation was real, then Kenny wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As I said in another thread, it's very realistic that a situation like this can happen down the road. Clementine, being Kenny's friend, and Kenny's fans, being Kenny fans, like him too much to see this simple fact. Sure, they got to Wellington, but what would've happened if they ran out of baby food, as the game was implying? Who would Kenny take his anger out on? Would he stop before someone else died? According to this situation, no.
This was the only way Jane was going to be able to show this simple and important fact.
You need to go back and watch a playthrough or something buddy. She says, and I quote "I've never killed someone who hasn't wrong me in some way."
You can say the same the same about Kenny haters thinking it's fine to put a baby and themselves in danger just to prove a point and trying to create a villain out of someone.
Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. You could say she didn't finish him off, that's true. But she didn't finish off the Ruskie either, Kenny did.
You see, that's the point you don't get. It wasn't about her "proving a point" (I don't know why people always come up with that nonsense, Jane is a pragmatic and down to earth person), it was about getting Clem to realize that Kenny is losing it and didn't want Clem to join him in his demise. He was constantly putting people into danger with his behavior and even brought the group to split up. She saw that Clem was caught between what's reasonable and her past with Kenny. Jane, a loner who is "supposed" to not give a shit about anyone else, puts herself in danger to save Clem. She didn't "create a villain", Kenny was turning himself into one and everyone saw that, including Clem. Jane's "normal" behavior would have been to leave Clem to her own downfall instead of intervening, but she didn't because she knew what would happen eventually.
So she was expecting a calm reaction from Kenny by making the guy assume she killed a baby. Really good plan, might as well shoot clementine i mean she would get a similar reaction out of it.
Edit-NVM.
Not on make believe. You hurt a baby. Or I believe you have hurt that baby because you told me you did I will hurt you. Badly.
It's just who I am. I protect my family, and those weaker than me.
If you were to come up to me, and all but admit you killed a child to save yourself (which is what Jane implied) especially one that I had desperately been doing everything to keep alive in a hopeless situation. Yes I would
But its ok to get Kenny killed?
In self defense yes, which is what Clementine did.
I like Kenny a lot and I like Jane a lot too, but Kenny is just pure insane to me and I'm not going to let that become a even larger influence later.
So what about the next person Jane doesn't agree with? She either abandons them or kills them. But I guess that's ok?
Jane is out for Jane. At least Kenny cared about the group. The first thing he does when he spins the car is ask if Jane is ok.
He then goes to look for fuel. To keep the car going. The car he fixed and used for the whole group I mean. He could've just left them all...
And what does Jane do? As soon as she heats gun shots, she wants to leave him to die.
Not someone I want anywhere near me in the ZA!
But it wasn't self defence! Jane baked Kenny into a corner. If she hadn't pretended she had gotten the baby killed. He never would've fought her! That was never self defence. She wanted to kill him.
Exactly!
Well that isnt actually true. I didnt choose jane because I hate Kenny. I loved him...and I know all the violent things he does, he do because he wanted to save me and AJ. But it's not okay. I'm sorry it's not okay to hurt everyone else, to save me and AJ. the other people just didnt care him. He was a great character and I...was crying liek hell when I shot him...but he was too dangerous. Acting or not, he was trying to kill Jane. He would kill anyone if someone would lose AJ or Clem. Hell he scared me almost to death when sarita died. Janes acting was like "I'm sorry the baby died" and those things happend sadly in such a apocalypse. Kennys answer to this was, to kill her for that. And thats not the answer in my opinion. I was damn angry at Jane when I found out and even if I go with her I would never forgive her...but sadly she was right about him.
She may still be capable of caring about people, but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither admirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have, unless you want your leader to be Carver.
Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. That's not what Sarah wanted, Sarah was just incapable of understanding what was going on around her in that moment. But the clincher is when you do save Sarah the first time, and she gets trapped under the rubble later and is clearly screaming for help, Jane immediately says they should just leave her because she wasn't getting out of that. That's not being a realist, that's giving up on a child about to die so you don't risk yourself. Letting Irene shoot herself is entirely different from Sarah's case. She was bitten and doomed to a slow death, so she chose to opt out and be with her family. Lee has the option to choose to let her give up because there's no point in fighting against the inevitable.
You are contradicting yourself. Jane never said that she killed or hurt the baby. She explicitly talks of an accident. You sound just as mad as Kenny who hurts or kills people based on stuff fabricated in your own colorful fantasy. I'm sorry, but if what you say is true, then you are a threat to everyone around you and should consider professional help.
She told him it was an accident and he tried to murder her.
She wanted to leave it with Kenny, which is what is best in your opinion anyway, right?
Uh, no.
She wasn't trying to 'off' Kenny, more convince Clem that Kenny is seriously unstable.
She explains, when you save her, that she wanted to show Clem that she didn't HAVE to stay with Kenny. If she planned to kill him, she wouldn't need to prove that, she'd just do it.
She also puts away her knife, and Kenny attacks her again. She basically said 'right, that's enough' and he slammed her into a window.
If Jane was out for Jane, Why did she return to the group?
I didn't choose Jane because my Clem hates Kenny. I chose her because as far as I knew, Kenny just tried to kill Jane for losing a baby accidentally.
Regardless of whether that was the truth, what if Clem really DID lose the baby accidentally later? He could well go that crazy again, and this time in Clem.
Also, the people saying she's selfish are kind of crazy. Every single thing she does in episode 5 is to try to protect Clem/. Regardless of whether she is mislead, the fact is that she was trying to do what's best for her. Which isn't what seflishness is.
It doesn't makes it any better, looking at the self-centered, manipulative background jane had even if it did was an accident, you couldn't really know for sure if she was saying the truth or she just left the baby there as bait to save herself from zombies.
Im guessing the possible death of AJ was not that big on some players because the baby was only in the game for 2 episodes, but im pretty sure if it was clem instead of the baby you would've shot jane no questions asked.
but she's willing to throw it away when it means putting herself in danger. That's neither admirable nor strong, and it's not a quality a leader should have There is a difference between 'throwing it away' and surviving. You can't force people to live, a leader understands that. It's sad and it's hard, but you can't risk the lives of everyone and yourself for someone who wants to die. It's cruel to everyone and that person. I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, leaders have to make this hard choice all the time, and the fact that Jane is willing to make it speaks volume on her strength.
Sarah and Jaime aren't the same. What little we're told about Jaime is that she actually did choose to give up. Sarah never chose to give up, but was stuck in a bad place due to her anxiety and her father's recent death. But Jane was nevertheless ready to leave her. If Jane hadn't decided to leave they all would have died. Luke had been trying for hours, as he tells us. I'm not saying Jane is a good person for this, but this is the ZA they're not sitting in a convenient store or in the normal world where things can be okay.
She was bitten and doomed to a slow death, so she chose to opt out and be with her family. Lee has the option to choose to let her give up because there's no point in fighting against the inevitable. But see, that IS the same thing. It was realistic, and the realism of it was cruel. Sarah wasn't going to get up from that, you would have died to get her out, and then if you got her out, then what? She's wounded and there's tons of zombies down there, how do you plan on getting her up? That mixed with Sarah's comatose state, that wasn't going to be the first time Sarah was going to turn 'off' essentially. I liked Sarah, I wanted to save her, I did save her the first time and I proved Jane wrong, but by the second time I knew she wasn't going to live, and to send another person down was wrong.
A leader things of the whole, not one small piece of pie. To risk someone else's life to save one girl who would later die anyway would be bad leadership, no matter how humane. in the ZA being a leader isn't about brownie points, and it's certainly not about being humane. It's being the one who everyone hates because you say the cold truth of the matter.
My point remains, Jane does care about people, she doesn't 'throw that away' but she's already said she's seen this over and over. Why would she risk more lives for a replay? That's quite literally the definition of insanity. No, it's not pretty, and yes I would have loved for Sarah to survive and get better, but let's be realistic... It wasn't going to happy. Carlos signed her death certificate the moment he decided to hide her from the world.
I do agree with your point that Irene (Wow, I'm surprised you remembered the name lool) AND Sarah aren't exactly the same thing, Sarah wanted to live, yes, but she wasn't trying to, and that still changes things. Saddened by her father or not, the harshness of the world won't slow down and wait for her, just as it didn't for Clem, it's be silly to suggest the group does. That'd only get them all killed, and Jane (and I) knew that.
I've never killed someone who hasn't wrong me in some way. Yes, she did say that. I'm aware. That's not to say she was upset about saving the group though. That obviously meant she didn't enjoy harming people unless she was provoked. I take it as a good thing. It's good to feel remorse for hurting people, even if that's hard in the ZA.
Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. That's a technicality though, and that is a huge difference, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'll use batman as an example (stay with me here, it's relevant xD) Batman doesn't kill people, but in an episode when a train is about to crash the bad guy looks his way, smirks and says "You can't kill me." Batmans reply is simply "No, but I don't have to save you either." That's all Jane did. She didn't save Troy, and that's easier on the conscience than truly being the way to drain someone's life. Truly killing someone is very hard, walking away from someone can make you feel better (even if you're still killing someone).
I am aware I left out that line, because I forgot to mention it and decided not to edit it in, I thought my point still conveyed well enough that someone would understand that line wasn't meant to show Jane as a killer or cold blooded (especially with the tone of her voice and body language, which says she's feels bad for killing a man).
I don't think Jane planned for Kenny to die, but yes, I agree they're both unstable in their own way. I feel Jane is less so than Kenny, as she's closed herself off, but sooner or later she'll become what he became and it'll be her time too. And while we're at it, if Clem doesn't watch herself she'll become dead inside too. It's a hard world. People like Luke and Lee are pretty rare, able to stand all that hardship and still love and feel as strongly as before. I praise them, because they both managed to survive and understand what had to be done, but they didn't take things out of hand. I think they were both the best leaders you could have had. The only problem with Luke was he was still young, and obviously somewhat inexperienced in leading, he still did very well though.
The ending was perfect. To each their own with it.