Kenny vs Jane and point of season 2
I think we all noticed that in the season 2, main plot point is trust. Who do you trust, who do you not trust.
Starting from Episode 1, where you had to choose a "protector" to speak up for you in Pete's group.
Then came Carver and another trust test with his famous "Do you even know these people"
And later the one where you should protect Nick so Walter doesnt let him be killed.
Then the Howe's where you ponder if you should trust Bonnie and tell her that Luke is there or not.
Along came episode 4 which put a strain on Clem's relationship with Kenny and Sarah.
So I am amazed that people didnt notice that episode 5 has the same running theme, and that almost 50% of players fell for it, and allowed a stranger you know for 5 days (10 if you waited like Luke wanted) to put a wedge between a person you have known for years, and who protected you and others several ocasions.
Now there are several reasons why this happened.
Kenny was under a lot of stress. Loosing a child and a wife, then finding out his friend died, only to loose another person he loves (Sarita) did make him darker. But I am amazed at the lack of understanding the people exibit for him and his situation.
So I would like to compare Jane to Kenny right here.
I will start with Kenny:
Pros:
-You know him for years now
-He always protected those in need of protection (Christa or Ben - a guy who led to his families death; took a beating to protect Clementine from Carver etc..)
-He is a family man, always ready to sacrifice himself for others
-He thinks of the greater good, rather than here and now
Cons:
-He thinks of greater good, rather than here and now (Which puts him in conflict with characters who prefer here and now)
-He is too emotional, so he reacts rashly (But always realises his mistakes and comes around)
-He is too focused on helping Clementine and AJ
Now lets compare that to Jane:
-She is a loner, willing to sacrifice others to get away (her sister, Sarah, Patricia, Randy, Gill usualy weaker or disturbed persons in need)
-She is manipulative (Offered sex in exchange to acceptance in Carvers group to Troy, also manipulated him later and left him to be eaten alive, manipulates Kenny into a fit of rage in order to get Clementine to go with her)
-She is cold (Luke, AJ)
Now lets be a little more specific
A lot of people blame Kenny for being too easily angered.
Now lets compare that to Jane. She left a pregnant woman, and a child in a forest surounded by Walkers, just because someone mentioned her sister. But then she has no problem at demeaning someone else's dead family. And Kenny, although angry never reacts in a way she does, by leaving those in need of help alone. Imagine if Kenny stopped the car, took the keys and walked out, leaving Jane and Clem alone in a snowstorm?
Would he ever do that?
She was willing to leave and even urged the leaving of Sarah a mentaly disturbed person who just lost her protector, who sheltered her from everything that went on outside. Compare that to Kenny, walking into a herd, just to save Ben Paul from suffering (There was no way to save him, he was dead anyway, and got his family killed, yet Kenny went out, willing to sacrifice himself just to help him not suffer)
She also manipulates Luke into having sex with her and leave her post, leading to a supprise walker attack which potentialy leads to Sarah's death
When Luke fell in the lake, she didnt even try to help him, while BONNIE jumped in the iced over lake to save him. All she did was get her hand wet by pulling Clem out. Would she jump in if she was not able to reach Clem?
Double standards - You insult my family I am leaving a pregnant woman in the woods, I insult yours, you are unstable for yelling back
Also, she left a baby, just a few days old, in a car filled with snow, in order to get Clem to shoot Kenny.
Its obvious she relied on that, because even when her life was threatened she didnt say AJ is OK.
Also, she had no plan on what happens to baby if she dies. What if walkers got attracted and got to it.
What if baby didnt cry, and Kenny and Clem just walked by thinking he is already dead?
Not to mention that she has proven unwilling on breaking up the fight. If you tell her to run she refuses and she turns the fight deadly by pulling out a weapon which she is willing to use
And dont pull out the "She saved the group from Russians" argument
First of all, she led to that conflict. She attacked Arvo, propposed stealing medicine, and in the end, even if stealing is refused, she leaves a cripple defenseless. And in the end, all she did was kill the last guy. She had a gun on her, and was behind him all the time, yet she chose to intervene only in the end, risking the life of baby, and everyone in the group. And how do I know that? Because she stabbed a guy in the neck with a knife. Which means she was there a long time.
And not to mention the endings. Kenny was willing to let himself die, just to save Clem and AJ (again).
Would Jane ever die for someone else?
Now, I probably forgot to mention something, and sorry for long text-wall. But here are my thoughts, and I truly dont understand how anyone was able to side with Jane, or kill Kenny.
What are your thoughts on it?
Comments
i dont know why 70% saved jane
if you saw that in the wikia its false Jane fans are upset with their ending and missing the wikia -_- choice's to Jane's
if you saw that in the wikia its false Jane fans are upset with their ending and missing the wikia -_- choice's to Jane's
God, first it's "Kenny VS Lily", then it was "Luke VS Kenny", and now it's "Jane VS Kenny" can we stop with VS please?
First of all i want to apologize my speech for maybe being not correct in grammar matters or my choice of words, I don't often write long letters in English
I tried to keep my peace with Jane for very long as I thought she really had a point in leaving the group. I thought she knew what she was doing and trusted her all the way along to the last part of episode 5. But I agree with all your points you listed up about her. But I discovered too late where she was going with her advises, and opinions,
So I shot Kenny. But not of such primitive reasons like he would act like Carver or he could kill us all in an instant. He would've never really been cured from the loss of his family. Take a man's child and he's got nothing to live for. He maybe would've recovered a little bit by caring about AJ as he wasn't really dead.
But Kenny himself said he would remember not helping Alvin everytime looking in AJ's face. He had enough of this world, I think.
Afterwards, after finding AJ in the car, I left behind Jane. I was disgusted about her plan to make me shoot Kenny and suddenly also about her behaviour she showed up all the time. As I got this in my mind, I left her behind. I couldn't play anymore longer with such a person.
Shhhh... You are making too much sense... That's blasphemy on the forums you know...
My thoughts are, the story was actually compelling enough for me to understand where Jane was coming from. I liked Kenny I do and I know many here will disagree but everything leading up to that point showed me that Jane had a point. The brutal beaten of Arvo, Bonnie and Mikes Betrayal, and Jane and Kenny fight itself was all a result of Kenny actions. I feel that's what this entire episode was about. Clem was oblivious to Kenny's emotional state and everyone knew it besides her. That's what drove Bonnie and Mike to betrayal, and drove Jane to do something so drastic. it was all to get Clem to see what Kenny was becoming. Even the ending with Kenny and Clem making it to Wellington. Kenny wanted to leave Clem, he himself knew he wasn't emotionally stable. He even knows again when you shoot him, he says it was the right decision; and again when you straight out leave him after he kills Jane.
This episode I think was to show the player this and to react to it. Will you choose familiarity, sticking with a man you know who's may be losing his mind but still cares so much about Clem. Or will you put familiarity aside; understanding what Jane says actually rings with truth and stick with a woman who is in turn manipulative, but also cares so much about Clem as well. It all comes down to how each player interpret the story, and as I saw it all evidence points to what Jane said. Kenny was coming unhinged and him attacking Jane without any knowledge of what actually happened was enough for me to agree with Bonnie, Mike, Arvo, and Jane.
I know people will argue that she made it out like she killed the baby. But the facts are she only said it was a accident, it was Kenny irrational thinking that made him believed that she killed it. He filled in the blanks, and that's what Jane wanted Clem to see. But that's just my opinion.
Kenny and Jane were both mad dogs. To bad you can't kill them both then pick to go to wellington alone.
Yeah don't forget Kenny VS Larry in S1E1. I mean with all that they might as well make a little Walking Dead fighting game with Kenny as a playable character.. already have that pinball game now, so this would not surprise me in the least.
We can have Lee and Clem be the referees
Lee and Clem: LET'S GET READY TO RRRUUUUUMMMMBLE!
i check it every day in the game and it doesn't change.30% didn't shot kenny
You didn't look because 30.1% of people actually didn't shoot Kenny. A lot of people are siding with Jane.
Really? Really? This is not my uncle having a nervous breakdown and falling apart in my living room. Nor is it a friend of a few years acting like a jerk.
This in the middle of a ZA...kinda changes the whole perspective of how you treat people and 'look after yourself'. REally, I;m amazed you cannot differentiate the two.
Yeah, sure does. Jane is an innocent little lamb, who definitely didnt do anything of the above mentioned, didnt pull out a deadly weapon, didnt refuse to stand down or run, and especialy didnt cut Kenny with a knife.
THIS THREAD THO.
Time to sit back and wait for Flog to arrive.
I just wanted to say that shooting Kenny doesn't mean siding with jane.You can let him kill jane and kill him after that..This doesn't mean 70% went with jane..Also the status weren't updated the last 2 days..
P.S:Dont call me a mad Kenny fanboy.Maybe more sided with Jane,yeah,MAYBE.I just wanted to clear out that shooting kenny doesnt necessarily mean going with jane
I did everything for AJ. I'm getting tired of people making me feel terrible for killing Kenny and thinking that Jane won me over. Both Jane and Kenny fucked up but I agreed with Jane's plan more. Howe's was a guaranteed spot for baby food and Wellington was still a goose chase up until the end.
How long you know a person is not the only consideration for trust. How they treat you is more important. Kenny broke my trust, I don't care if he has been around since season one and the first episode. It only means he has had longer to disappoint me.
I told Jane to screw off and left without her in my original playthrough. I prefer the Kenny alternative. Not because I'm a Ken-Fan, but because I would rather have Clem safe in Wellington than keep Clem struggling to survive outside of those walls.
I figured out what Jane was saying to Clem immediately. As the fight started, I knew in my gut that AJ was alive. So, of course, I tried to break up the fight and calm Kenny down and explain. When it came down to Kenny pushing the knife into Jane I thought for just a moment that I should let her die because I was so mad at her. And then I pulled the trigger and killed Kenny, because in that moment he was the pyscho he had been threatening to become for the last two episodes. In that moment he was a murderer and if I did nothing, so was Clem. No matter what she did, Jane didn't deserve to die. Very few do.
When it was confirmed that the baby was still alive I didn't leave or forgive her. I still hate her, but it's better to stick with others, which is why I let the family in at the end.
Thank you MosesArose. Very well said.
Originally, I chose to shoot Kenny. I didn't want to but I also couldn't sit by and do nothing while Kenny committed murder. But I think the OP made an interesting point... I hadn't considered before that Jane's plan might have been to use Clementine to kill Kenny all along, forcing her to choose when Jane could have ended the fight all along by simply telling Kenny that AJ was ok. She is a proven manipulator, though, isn't she? I dunno... do you guys really think she was planning that all along? Or that once the fight started she just wasn't thinking clearly enough to do anything about it?
Am I the only one who thinks that Clem going off in a snowstorm alone with a baby is a bad idea?
I enjoyed reading your post. I agree. As you pointed out, Jane killed/manipulated/left people to die (including her sister) in order to live, she's proven her self-preservation trumps everything else, and so can't be trusted - so she will leave you if it comes down to it. Kenny, in general, is trying to do good and protect, but constantly takes out his anguish on others in a blind rage. It's why in the end I had to shoot Kenny, murdering someone for failing to protect another is wrong; but left Jane also, as lying and manipulating to get her way shows how broken and dangerous she is. After badgering you the entire episode to leave Kenny, she proves how Kenny can snap by causing Kenny to snap. What?! It's a real shame because the trio of Kenny, Jane and Clem is my ideal group. Survivalist, calculating badass and emotionally-vested ass-kicker; two incredibly capable adults in the zombie apocalypse.
Great read man.
She is in danger of dying, and instead of telling him that AJ is OK, she tells him that she knew that he would try to kill her and then calls Clementine to help her.
Thus proving that her plan all along was to get Clem to kill Kenny.
I don't remember Jane having enough time to say anything. I must not have waited long enough for that dialogue to happen.
So, essentially you're saying that Jane was using Clementine as the murder weapon. Huh...so one might argue that Jane was the aggressor in the situation and that by shooting Kenny, Clementine was simply playing into her hands... This changes things. For me, anyway.
Play it again, pick up the gun, and wait.
Kenny says:
You f**** babykiller, I will kill you
Jane:
I knew you would
scuffle
Clem help
At first, Jane was confident that she could manage Kenny by herself, telling Clem not to get involved. Later, when Kenny gets the upper hand, she pleads with Clem to help. What is she asking her to do?
Still, Jane used the baby as an instrument to justify her being in the right, which is absolutely wrong! You can't make a truth out of a hypothetical "What if" scenario.
People are seeing it as which had a more justifiable death, Kenny or Jane, but they don't see Clem in the equation. Is it worth Clem murdering a friend, someone she had known since the start of the zombie apocalypse, just so Jane could say "I told you so"?
I feel that while I couldn't trust Jane at first, she improved over the episodes, and eventually earned my trust.
Kenny is the opposite of that - I trusted him initially, but as time went by, he was rapidly deteriorating. My trust in him dropped and eventually ran out at the point in episode 5 where he said that we're going to Wellington, despite the fact that literally everyone else in the group is against the idea. He's putting his own pride in front of the group's survival - that is not the signature of a man who cares about others.
People like to parrot the idea that Jane was being manipulative, but there is simply no evidence whatsoever to support this. The way I see it, all she was doing was pointing out the obvious - if Kenny didn't improve, he needed to go. It's not manipulation, it's the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. Leaving AJ in the car was no big deal either - the cold would have been just as bad if he were outside, and he was actually safer from walkers in the car than he would have been if he was with the group; using this as a point against Jane is nonsensical.
I'd actually like to challenge someone to come up with a situation where Jane was manipulative. Maybe I'm just too... You know... brainwashed to notice any of it, but I'd like someone to give me an argument for it.
Well, I'll try. No hostility intended, by the way.
Much of Jane's manipulative personality is more implied than it is seen. It is very strongly implied that she used (manipulated) Troy into helping her by trading him sex for favors. Yes, Troy was a jerk. But it's still a solid example of Jane using someone else to get what she wants.
Also, I am now of the opinion that when Jane left AJ in the car she meant to use the ensuing situation as an excuse to kill Kenny or at least get him kicked out of the group (which might very well have been a death sentence). And even when Kenny was holding the knife and she was about to die, she still wouldn't end the fight by telling Kenny that AJ was ok. She forced Clementine to make a choice. If that's not textbook manipulation, I don't know what is.
Like Kenny said: "She wanted a fight."