She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad, Kenny wasn't justified in killing Jane. As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR, I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life. Seriously Belan I think you're better than "PRO KENNY IS JESUS and JANE IS THE FUCKEN DEVIL, BURN HER." they're both flawed individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
and felt a need to beat her to death
Yeah... we never see this at all. I don't know why people are so quick to think violent action … morealways = trying to kill someone. All he did was pin her to the wall... not exactly a lethal move there. He did the same thing to Mike in Episode Three. Jane wasn't fighting for her life until she escalated the fight into that type of situation.
All decisions are valid to whoever is making them, there is no objectively right or wrong answer in this regard, it would be nice if people would stop being arrogant when it comes to their decisions, in my opinion. I understand it's is opinion, but I find it flawed and questionable.
But she wouldn't of attacked him, if he stayed calm, and didn't attack her, there wouldn't of been a fight and she'd been wrong about him. And if she did attack him, then i would protect Kenny.
and i dont think Jane would of started a fight if he didn't attack first
That was the entire point of what she was going for though.… more She would have looked like a total fool if Kenny didn't react to what she did.
pinned her to choke her.
But he never tried to choke her.. so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. He was only holding her against the wall. The wasn't trying to outright kill her.
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad, Kenny wasn't justified in… more killing Jane. As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR, I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life. Seriously Belan I think you're better than "PRO KENNY IS JESUS and JANE IS THE FUCKEN DEVIL, BURN HER." they're both flawed individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
I mean, listen to the dialogue, Kenny is clearly the aggressive one, Jane just states she will defend herself if he attacks her, and for him to stay away from her,
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad, Kenny wasn't justified in… more killing Jane. As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR, I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life. Seriously Belan I think you're better than "PRO KENNY IS JESUS and JANE IS THE FUCKEN DEVIL, BURN HER." they're both flawed individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad
That seems like a lot of speculation. All he was doing was holding her to the wall. I mean... I guess the window cracked.. but it isn't hard to crack a window at all. Anyway, he could have easily subdued her in that position if he wanted to. He had complete control over her... and she had her back to the wall (literally and figuratively).
As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR
She did though. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter she told Clem that she was going to see Kenny "for what he really is". She was fully expecting him to become violent and dangerous. She was counting on it in order for her plan to work.
I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life
She didn't intend on killing him at first, but she was dead set on it once she broke free of his hold from the wall. She kicked the fight up a couple of notches.. and that might be putting it lightly. After she got out her knife and slashed Kenny across the stomach he wanted no part of that fight. He retreated outside, and then Jane followed him. In the event that you tell Kenny to run, she says "not happening", and immediately goes in for the kill. She also has the option to say "I'm going to put him out of his misery", after which she again immediately goes in for the kill.
Seriously, what was the point in her doing that if she was only trying to defend herself? Why could the fight have not stopped right there? Kenny wasn't even doing anything at that point. Jane was very intent on killing him.
Seriously Belan I think you're better than "PRO KENNY IS JESUS and JANE IS THE FUCKEN DEVIL, BURN HER
I have no idea why you would think I feel this way, as I have never posted anything like that. Jane was one of my favorite characters until she pulled this stunt. I don't think she was totally bad by any means, but she really screwed up here.
they're both flawed individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad, Kenny wasn't justified in… more killing Jane. As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR, I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life. Seriously Belan I think you're better than "PRO KENNY IS JESUS and JANE IS THE FUCKEN DEVIL, BURN HER." they're both flawed individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Yes, but Kenny believed that she had murdered his adopted baby and she purposely did not try to explain herself. Any parent/guardian that comes to this conclusion is going to totally flip out. Its not something that is special to Kenny. Jane needed to rationalize what happened in order to prevent him from flipping out, but she didn't do that because it would have contradicted her plans. Kenny had every reason to believe that she did away with the baby based on who she is as a person (wouldn't be the first time she advocated for leaving a defenseless individual behind), and Jane did nothing to try and rationalize otherwise. She was only interested in getting him to fight... which isn't fair to Kenny at all.
But she wouldn't of attacked him, if he stayed calm, and didn't attack her, there wouldn't of been a fight and she'd been wrong about him. And if she did attack him, then i would protect Kenny.
I still think Kenny was intent on hurting Jane, choking her at least, he even threatened to do it in the truck, he was full blown on murdering Jane, after what she supposedly did, I'm sorry, but I saw murder in his eyes when he walked up angrily at the shop. I do have a feeling that after Kenny charged at her at the glass, Jane by that point thought of Kenny as a threat to her and Clementine and proceeded to defend herself and Clem, in my view at least. Why would I think that way? Cause you're treating the whole scenario like Kenny was a victim when he was really part of the problem, when you tell him to let Jane talk, he says he's through talking, that doesn't sound like someone who's willing to listen and not choke or beat someone up. So far I haven't seen any comments where it wasn't Kenny is awesome and Jane is a jerkish murder, I really think you need to at least look at Jane's endings, as if you stay silent during the Invite or leave option, she tells the family they can come in, and that's coming from someone who didn't trust groups at all, she's learned a few things from Clem in a way. so yeah, both Jane and Kenny aren't 100% good nor are they 100% evil.
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad
That seems like a l… moreot of speculation. All he was doing was holding her to the wall. I mean... I guess the window cracked.. but it isn't hard to crack a window at all. Anyway, he could have easily subdued her in that position if he wanted to. He had complete control over her... and she had her back to the wall (literally and figuratively).
As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR
She did though. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter she told Clem that she was going to see Kenny "for what he really is". She was fully expecting him to become violent and dangerous. She was counting on it in order for her plan to work.
I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life
She didn't… [view original content]
I disagree. Jane strongly implied to Kenny that she killed the baby and goaded him into a fight.
I understand her point and think that Kenny certainly was a danger but in this case she brought that on herself. "I killed your baby! lol just kidding mate" isn't a very good joke.
That just doesn't make any sense to me. You're basically saying everyone should have undefinable opinions in terms of whether they are right or wrong, and yet you're saying his opinion of thinking that he is right is a wrong opinion to have. Just sounds like contradictive logic to me.
I mean, I definitely think I'm correct in my reasoning on this subject as well. That is why I have been spending time debating the point. If you don't think there is a right and wrong opinion on the matter then why are you wasting time trying to change people's opinions? If you don't think their opinion is wrong or that their reasoning is flawed then what is the point? I don't see why people disagreeing with one another needs to be seen as arrogant or immature.
All decisions are valid to whoever is making them, there is no objectively right or wrong answer in this regard, it would be nice if people … morewould stop being arrogant when it comes to their decisions, in my opinion. I understand it's is opinion, but I find it flawed and questionable.
Yes, but Kenny believed that she had murdered his adopted baby and she purposely did not try to explain herself. Any parent/guardian that co… moremes to this conclusion is going to totally flip out. Its not something that is special to Kenny. Jane needed to rationalize what happened in order to prevent him from flipping out, but she didn't do that because it would have contradicted her plans. Kenny had every reason to believe that she did away with the baby based on who she is as a person (wouldn't be the first time she advocated for leaving a defenseless individual behind), and Jane did nothing to try and rationalize otherwise. She was only interested in getting him to fight... which isn't fair to Kenny at all.
I am simply opposing the notion of people claiming their opinion, decision, choice, are objectively fact and everyone should feel ashamed or like an idiot for feeling the opposite, and then it gets to the ugly point of people insulting someone's personal well being because they made a choice, decision, or opinion, they didn't care for. I am against that.
That just doesn't make any sense to me. You're basically saying everyone should have undefinable opinions in terms of whether they are right… more or wrong, and yet you're saying his opinion of thinking that he is right is a wrong opinion to have. Just sounds like contradictive logic to me.
I mean, I definitely think I'm correct in my reasoning on this subject as well. That is why I have been spending time debating the point. If you don't think there is a right and wrong opinion on the matter then why are you wasting time trying to change people's opinions? If you don't think their opinion is wrong or that their reasoning is flawed then what is the point? I don't see why people disagreeing with one another needs to be seen as arrogant or immature.
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad
That seems like a l… moreot of speculation. All he was doing was holding her to the wall. I mean... I guess the window cracked.. but it isn't hard to crack a window at all. Anyway, he could have easily subdued her in that position if he wanted to. He had complete control over her... and she had her back to the wall (literally and figuratively).
As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR
She did though. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter she told Clem that she was going to see Kenny "for what he really is". She was fully expecting him to become violent and dangerous. She was counting on it in order for her plan to work.
I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life
She didn't… [view original content]
Boring? Where'd the hell did you get that from? Never make a point? Because you disagree or don't believe me? I'll gladly wait for an arrogant, snobbish response.
Don't bother Belan, people who jump at the chance to talk to you about relativism and subjectivity are boring and never make a point.
There's almost no reason to respond to them.
Don't bother Belan, people who jump at the chance to talk to you about relativism and subjectivity are boring and never make a point.
There's almost no reason to respond to them.
Saying "it was an accident" one time isn't going to change the mind of someone who thinks their child has been murdered. No one would be that completely rational in that situation. You're not really being realistic. Jane purposely kept it vague and did not try to rationalize either. Again, she wanted to fight.
No, I think he meant what he said. Clem did the right thing. Kenny knew how dangerous he was becoming. If you point the gun at him after the fight, he even tells you to do it. He wasn't well and he knew it.
I still think Kenny was intent on hurting Jane, choking her at least
But he never choked her. All he did was hold her up against the wall. If he really wanted to do something more to hurt her there he easily could have done it. Almost anything was on the table, considering he had her completely under control. He was just content to hold her there though.
he even threatened to do it in the truck
Entirely different scenario though, as it was likely an empty threat. He just wanted her to stop insulting him over his family. He almost crashed the truck shortly after this, and he immediately asked Jane is she was all right... even before he asked about the baby. He was concerned about her.
I do have a feeling that after Kenny charged at her at the glass, Jane by that point thought of Kenny as a threat to her and Clementine and proceeded to defend herself and Clem, in my view at least.
If that was true she would have tried to stop the fight, not turn it into a fight to the death. As I said before, Kenny actually ran away from her at one point, but she followed him because she wanted to kill him. It went far beyond defending herself.
Cause you're treating the whole scenario like Kenny was a victim when he was really part of the problem, when you tell him to let Jane talk, he says he's through talking, that doesn't sound like someone who's willing to listen and not choke or beat someone up.
Because its not fair when the entire thing was a set up and the fight was instigated by Jane. You don't just pretend like you got someone's child kid, sorry. And of course Kenny is going to say hes done talking. That doesn't mean Jane wouldn't have been able to rationalize with him. There isn't any reason to just assume that Kenny was too far gone to be pulled back.
so yeah, both Jane and Kenny aren't 100% good nor are they 100% evil.
Like I said in my previous post, I agree with you on that.
I still think Kenny was intent on hurting Jane, choking her at least, he even threatened to do it in the truck, he was full blown on murderi… moreng Jane, after what she supposedly did, I'm sorry, but I saw murder in his eyes when he walked up angrily at the shop. I do have a feeling that after Kenny charged at her at the glass, Jane by that point thought of Kenny as a threat to her and Clementine and proceeded to defend herself and Clem, in my view at least. Why would I think that way? Cause you're treating the whole scenario like Kenny was a victim when he was really part of the problem, when you tell him to let Jane talk, he says he's through talking, that doesn't sound like someone who's willing to listen and not choke or beat someone up. So far I haven't seen any comments where it wasn't Kenny is awesome and Jane is a jerkish murder, I really think you need to at least look at Jane's endings, as if you stay silent during the Invite or leave op… [view original content]
I am simply opposing the notion of people claiming their opinion, decision, choice, are objectively fact and everyone should feel ashamed or like an idiot for feeling the opposite, and then it gets to the ugly point of people insulting someone's personal well being
Alright, but the guy wasn't being that way at all.
I am simply opposing the notion of people claiming their opinion, decision, choice, are objectively fact and everyone should feel ashamed or… more like an idiot for feeling the opposite, and then it gets to the ugly point of people insulting someone's personal well being because they made a choice, decision, or opinion, they didn't care for. I am against that.
Not sure if you're bringing that up as a random aside or what... but that has nothing to do with what I was trying to show in that GIF. She just kind did that as a bonus. Wasn't criticizing her for it.
I'm talking about her dialogue there, and the fact that she slashed and stabbed at Kenny when he had disengaged in the fight.
Well.. I'm sure no one feels great after stabbing someone through the chest, whether justified or not. I'm sure he probably wasn't even sure if he did the right thing.
No, I think he meant what he said. Clem did the right thing. Kenny knew how dangerous he was becoming. If you point the gun at him after the fight, he even tells you to do it. He wasn't well and he knew it.
Saying he didn't want to choke her when he pinned her is ridiculous. He was trying to kill her. He certainly had no reason to want to restrain her, and he wasn't in a state of mind to do so. Besides, she wasn't a threat to him or Clem, so why else would he want to pin her?
And not explaining yourself properly is no excuse to try to murder someone. Why would anyone think she wanted to kill the baby? If she'd wanted to leave the baby to die, she could have left it in the car. She took off with it, so the reasonable explanation is she tried to save him, but couldn't. Otherwise what, you think she took it as a decoy? Nothing about her behavior would lead to the conclusion that she purposefully killed the baby.
Saying "it was an accident" one time isn't going to change the mind of someone who thinks their child has been murdered. No one would be tha… moret completely rational in that situation. You're not really being realistic. Jane purposely kept it vague and did not try to rationalize either. Again, she wanted to fight.
She says it was "an accident" but knowing jane, it's safe to assume she wanted to rid of the baby since she's a selfish bitch.
Even after kenny asks her if it's a "joke" that bitch says nothing. We all knew of kenny's bad ways, she just wanted to test him and prove shit. She could've said it was a joke and that the baby is safe. Even after telling her to leave, she says "nu uh i'm not backing down" And then starts to mock kenny. If you kill kenny, she fucking tells clem it "had to be done". She wanted to kill him all along. She thought she'd live and would successfully kill kenny.
sadly for her, that shit back fired. She tells me to "not get involved" yet when her shit went to hell, she's begging clem to help, literally.
Sorry whore, you die tonight. she reaps what she sowed. It's the only logical thing. Plus, kenny actions are justifiable. He was protecting the group, and he did what HAD to be done in my play through. If it weren't kenny killing jane, It would've been me. After she came without that baby I WISH i had the option kenny were to hold her down and i'll behead her.
Which is why she proceeded to beat Kenny down, she thought she was protecting Clem and keeping Kenny from hurting anyone else. Sorry, but "are you alright?' isn't enough, and besides that honestly is a very weird scene to begin with, they end up arguing really badly and then suddenly Kenny asks her if she's okay? Kind of clumsy writing. Kenny didn't run away, he just backed away slowly because he just got cut. Trust me, Kenny was fully intended by that point to beat Jane up, Telltale just resorted to recycling old animations. of course its not fair, and Jane never came off as she got the baby killed it seemed more like she just lost the baby and that set Kenny off, why would she rationalize Kenny if her goal is to show that Kenny is unstable to Clementine? Jane fully believed Kenny was a madman and she wanted Clementine to see it, and to some extent Clem has seen it, just didn't believe it, and Jane wanted Clem to believe it. if you really agreed with me, then why does this all sound like "Kenny is a good guy and you should love him and Jane is a bad guy and you should hate her? Belan, what the hell is going on here?!!
I still think Kenny was intent on hurting Jane, choking her at least
But he never choked her. All he did was hold her up against the… more wall. If he really wanted to do something more to hurt her there he easily could have done it. Almost anything was on the table, considering he had her completely under control. He was just content to hold her there though.
he even threatened to do it in the truck
Entirely different scenario though, as it was likely an empty threat. He just wanted her to stop insulting him over his family. He almost crashed the truck shortly after this, and he immediately asked Jane is she was all right... even before he asked about the baby. He was concerned about her.
I do have a feeling that after Kenny charged at her at the glass, Jane by that point thought of Kenny as a threat to her and Clementine and proceeded to defend herself and Clem, in my view at least.
If that was true she would h… [view original content]
If he didn't choke her, it's just because he didn't get the opportunity. Check here, 2:16. When he rams her he grabs her collar with both hands, then once she's against the wallhe moves one forearm to press against her neck. When you apply pressure on someone's neck, you are choking them by definition. You can't pin someone by their necks without choking them. He didn't get to control the situation because she clawed at her eye, which probably hurt like hell and kept him from applying more strength. But you can't say that someone who is choking someone doesn't mean to choke them.
And as far as Kenny could have seen, Jane's behavior would have matched that of someone who was ashamed, which is what would happen if you failed to protect a baby. You don't go from an accident to murder without any kind of proof.
As for Jane then keeping the fight going, well, yeah. He only backed out once she got the better of him, but he'd already shown he was willing to kill her. Would you turn your back on someone who is only not trying to kill you because you got the better of him momentarily? Because that's what ending the fight there meant. How can you sleep again knowing that the person holding watch has it out for you and is just waiting for a chance to get even? It's not like Kenny is big on forgiveness.
I still think Kenny was intent on hurting Jane, choking her at least
But he never choked her. All he did was hold her up against the… more wall. If he really wanted to do something more to hurt her there he easily could have done it. Almost anything was on the table, considering he had her completely under control. He was just content to hold her there though.
he even threatened to do it in the truck
Entirely different scenario though, as it was likely an empty threat. He just wanted her to stop insulting him over his family. He almost crashed the truck shortly after this, and he immediately asked Jane is she was all right... even before he asked about the baby. He was concerned about her.
I do have a feeling that after Kenny charged at her at the glass, Jane by that point thought of Kenny as a threat to her and Clementine and proceeded to defend herself and Clem, in my view at least.
If that was true she would h… [view original content]
Saying he didn't want to choke her when he pinned her is ridiculous. He was trying to kill her. He certainly had no reason to want to restrain her, and he wasn't in a state of mind to do so. Besides, she wasn't a threat to him or Clem, so why else would he want to pin her?
Clearly you do not remember him doing the same thing to Mike back in Episode Three. You're assuming he was trying to kill her without having anything to base it on. Just because you pin someone that doesn't mean you're trying to choke them. He was just getting in her face. I love how any form of violence done by Kenny in this episode is instantly equated to him trying to kill someone. By your logic, Kenny totally tried to kill Lee on the train in Episode Three of Season One. Heck, he potentially gives Lee a worse beatdown than what he was doing to Jane before she decided to escalate the fight into a battle to the death.
And not explaining yourself properly is no excuse to try to murder someone.
First off, Kenny was not trying to murder her until it came down to defending his own life. Second of all, Jane was clearly BS'ing considering she did nothing to try and explain the situation. Kenny thought it was murder, and as an enraged protector of that baby, it was Jane's job to calm the situation down. Any parent would have been out of their mind in that situation. Saying "it was an accident" is not going to calm the situation down. All she did was try to escalate.. because that was her agenda.
Why would anyone think she wanted to kill the baby?
Not like Jane has ever purposely left anyone behind before because of them being a liability... right?
She took off with it, so the reasonable explanation is she tried to save him, but couldn't.
Umm.. no. There is no way that is "the" reasonable explanation. Maybe the idea didn't occur to her until after she had left the vehicle. There are a ton of different variables. Maybe the baby was crying and calling walkers to her attention so she decided to give the baby up because it was a liability to the situation?
Otherwise what, you think she took it as a decoy? Nothing about her behavior would lead to the conclusion that she purposefully killed the baby.
Abandoning defenseless Sarah, abandoning her little sister, wants to abandon Kenny, tells the story where she implies that her old group should have abandoned a man that got stuck under a truck, constantly talks about not having other people drag her down. She is more concerned about her own survival than she is about keeping other human beings safe. She isn't exactly a morally sound individual who would never think about abandoning a baby if it was putting her own life in danger.
Saying he didn't want to choke her when he pinned her is ridiculous. He was trying to kill her. He certainly had no reason to want to restra… morein her, and he wasn't in a state of mind to do so. Besides, she wasn't a threat to him or Clem, so why else would he want to pin her?
And not explaining yourself properly is no excuse to try to murder someone. Why would anyone think she wanted to kill the baby? If she'd wanted to leave the baby to die, she could have left it in the car. She took off with it, so the reasonable explanation is she tried to save him, but couldn't. Otherwise what, you think she took it as a decoy? Nothing about her behavior would lead to the conclusion that she purposefully killed the baby.
Clearly you do not remember him doing the same thing to Mike back in Episode Three
And you must not remember him beating Avro and almost killing the little fuck a few hours earlier, for doing exactly what he said he was doing: leading them to the house they had been staying at. Oh wait, he also hurried his pace to not get eaten. Yeah, that deserves a brutal beating. But hey, Kenny was probably not going to kill him, he really knows just how many punches to the face are safe before killing someone.
As for Jane, leaving someone behind is not purposefully killing them. Unless you think it's reasonable to expect someone to die trying to protect someone they can't save (evidenced by the fact that they die trying), none of those situations are her killing someone. Yes, Jane put her own survival ahead, but she never did it at the expense of someone else. She never set someone up to take the fall for her.
And again, her first instinct was to take the baby, so that shows her instinct was to protect it. If she fails but survives, and you take that as "killing the baby", then you are saying that she should have died failing to save the baby, because that's the only outcome you don't consider killing it.
Saying he didn't want to choke her when he pinned her is ridiculous. He was trying to kill her. He certainly had no reason to want to restra… morein her, and he wasn't in a state of mind to do so. Besides, she wasn't a threat to him or Clem, so why else would he want to pin her?
Clearly you do not remember him doing the same thing to Mike back in Episode Three. You're assuming he was trying to kill her without having anything to base it on. Just because you pin someone that doesn't mean you're trying to choke them. He was just getting in her face. I love how any form of violence done by Kenny in this episode is instantly equated to him trying to kill someone. By your logic, Kenny totally tried to kill Lee on the train in Episode Three of Season One. Heck, he potentially gives Lee a worse beatdown than what he was doing to Jane before she decided to escalate the fight into a battle to the death.
And not explaining yourself properly is … [view original content]
And you must not remember him beating Avro and almost killing the little fuck a few hours earlier, for doing exactly what he said he was doing: leading them to the house they had been staying at.
He didn't almost kill him. He punched him three times and was done. By the time Mike pulled him off, Kenny was just sitting on top of him. Arvo wasn't even knocked unconscious let alone "almost killed". Like I said above, beating someone up doesn't = trying to kill them.
Oh wait, he also hurried his pace to not get eaten. Yeah, that deserves a brutal beating.
Well lets see here. He also had held up the group at gunpoint and led them into a very dangerous gun fight only a day prior. As for the ice incident, he was not in danger of getting eaten. Lets be real here. He was at the front of the pack. What he did was very selfish, especially since he knew how dangerous that surface was, considering he lived there. So after playing a hand in an attempted robbery, mass murder attempt, and playing a hand in Luke's death, he had the gall to insult Kenny immediately afterwards? Arvo was a complete scumbag. Punching him in the face three times was not a big deal, and it doesn't mean anything towards the Jane situation.
But hey, Kenny was probably not going to kill him, he really knows just how many punches to the face are safe before killing someone
Three punches to the face is not going to kill someone. Arvo didn't even lose consciousness. He was actually totally fine other than being bruised and bloodied. Its called beating someone up. There is a big difference between that and intentionally going for the kill.
I mean, by your logic, it is an absolute miracle that Andy survived Lee's onslaught of punches in Episode Two of Season One. He hit him a lot more than three times, and potentially messed him up a lot worse. Lee must have totally been going for the kill too.. right?
As for Jane, leaving someone behind is not purposefully killing them. Unless you think it's reasonable to expect someone to die trying to protect someone they can't save (evidenced by the fact that they die trying), none of those situations are her killing someone.
You're splitting hairs and not really changing the argument. She wasn't willing to protect people who couldn't protect themselves. The baby obviously could not protect itself. Its the same thing as her dragging her sister around, she even said she had to carry her at times. So if she thought going out of her way to protect the baby meant putting herself in danger, there is no reason to think that she would not have abandoned it somewhere.
Yes, Jane put her own survival ahead, but she never did it at the expense of someone else. She never set someone up to take the fall for her.
Doesn't change the fact that she could have abandoned the baby like she abandoned so many others.
And again, her first instinct was to take the baby, so that shows her instinct was to protect it.
So? Even if it was her first instinct you don't know that it couldn't have changed. She may not have even thought about what she was doing. She already had the baby in her arms when the truck crashed. The only other alternative would have been to drop the baby and run. And seeing as Clem was right there, she wouldn't have done that.
If she fails but survives, and you take that as "killing the baby", then you are saying that she should have died failing to save the baby, because that's the only outcome you don't consider killing it.
Umm... what? No, you're making that connection totally on your own.
Clearly you do not remember him doing the same thing to Mike back in Episode Three
And you must not remember him beating Avro and al… moremost killing the little fuck a few hours earlier, for doing exactly what he said he was doing: leading them to the house they had been staying at. Oh wait, he also hurried his pace to not get eaten. Yeah, that deserves a brutal beating. But hey, Kenny was probably not going to kill him, he really knows just how many punches to the face are safe before killing someone.
As for Jane, leaving someone behind is not purposefully killing them. Unless you think it's reasonable to expect someone to die trying to protect someone they can't save (evidenced by the fact that they die trying), none of those situations are her killing someone. Yes, Jane put her own survival ahead, but she never did it at the expense of someone else. She never set someone up to take the fall for her.
And again, her first instinct w… [view original content]
If he didn't choke her, it's just because he didn't get the opportunity.
Lol. He had her up against the wall and was purposely pinning her arms. He wouldn't be doing that if he wanted to choke her. The whole time he holds her against the wall that is literally all he does.
When he rams her he grabs her collar with both hands, then once she's against the wallhe moves one forearm to press against her neck. When you apply pressure on someone's neck, you are choking them by definition
No, he did that to help pin her against the wall and nothing else. He wasn't even actually pushing on her throat at all. She talks during this and her speech is completely normal. He was pushing more on her collar bone than her throat. She wasn't choking for air or anything, just struggling to break free of his hold. If Telltale wanted it look like he was choking her then they would have made it obvious, and not just have you grasp at straws.
He does the same move to Mike in Episode Three, and he clearly want not trying to choke him to death.
Obviously Mike wasn't struggling like Jane was, but it's the same thing.
He didn't get to control the situation because she clawed at her eye, which probably hurt like hell and kept him from applying more strength.
Then why did it take her so long to break free? Kenny could have done so many things during that time frame if he actually wanted to kill her. But nope, all he does is hold there. Doesn't do anything with lethal intentions.
But you can't say that someone who is choking someone doesn't mean to choke them.
Because Kenny obviously wasn't choking her.
And as far as Kenny could have seen, Jane's behavior would have matched that of someone who was ashamed, which is what would happen if you failed to protect a baby. You don't go from an accident to murder without any kind of proof.
Wasn't murder. He was fighting for his life at that point.
Jane wasn't ashamed, that was very obvious. She was acting like nothing even happened, and intentionally being shady. Kenny thought she had killed his baby, of course he is going to be beyond furious. Any parent/ guardian would be. She needed to explain herself, but that went against her agenda. All she does is try to escalate the situation.
As for Jane then keeping the fight going, well, yeah. He only backed out once she got the better of him, but he'd already shown he was willing to kill her.
No. He did not show that was willing to kill her. Again, a fight doesn't equal trying to kill someone. Kenny literally showed nothing in terms of trying to kill her.
Would you turn your back on someone who is only not trying to kill you because you got the better of him momentarily? Because that's what ending the fight there meant. How can you sleep again knowing that the person holding watch has it out for you and is just waiting for a chance to get even? It's not like Kenny is big on forgiveness.
Doesn't matter, because she was the one who wanted the fight in the first place. She was the one who manipulated the situation. At any time she could have called the fight off and told Kenny that she had the baby alive somewhere. You reap what you sow.
If he didn't choke her, it's just because he didn't get the opportunity. Check here, 2:16. When he rams her he grabs her collar with both h… moreands, then once she's against the wallhe moves one forearm to press against her neck. When you apply pressure on someone's neck, you are choking them by definition. You can't pin someone by their necks without choking them. He didn't get to control the situation because she clawed at her eye, which probably hurt like hell and kept him from applying more strength. But you can't say that someone who is choking someone doesn't mean to choke them.
And as far as Kenny could have seen, Jane's behavior would have matched that of someone who was ashamed, which is what would happen if you failed to protect a baby. You don't go from an accident to murder without any kind of proof.
As for Jane then keeping the fight going, well, yeah. He only backed out once she got the better of him, but he'd already shown he… [view original content]
Sorry, but "are you alright?' isn't enough, and besides that honestly is a very weird scene to begin with, they end up arguing really badly and then suddenly Kenny asks her if she's okay? Kind of clumsy writing
What? It showed that he cared about her well being. Just because you're in a bad argument with someone doesn't mean you don't actually care about that person. It wasn't clumsy writing at all. And even if it was, it doesn't change anything. Kenny still showed that he actually cared about her well being.
Kenny didn't run away, he just backed away slowly because he just got cut.
Doesn't matter. He disengaged from the fight. That was a perfect opportunity for Jane to explain what was really going on. She was more interested in killing him though.
Trust me, Kenny was fully intended by that point to beat Jane up, Telltale just resorted to recycling old animations
What animations were recycled? Its irrelevant if they were anyway. We can only go off of what we have instead of making baseless speculations.
But yes, Kenny obviously intended to get violent with her. But at the point that he disengaged from the fight everything could have ended, and likely would have ended if Jane didn't try killing him.
Jane never came off as she got the baby killed it seemed more like she just lost the baby and that set Kenny off,
Didn't seem like that in Kenny's eyes, and that's all that matters. If it was an accident then why didn't she try explaining herself? Why wasn't she broken up about it? Why wasn't she apologetic? She was intentionally trying to stir up a fight.
why would she rationalize Kenny if her goal is to show that Kenny is unstable to Clementine?
Yes, that is the point I have been making. You're admitting that Jane did not try and rationalize her actions because she was pushing an agenda. Kenny thought she had killed his adopted baby and she wasn't even willing to try and rationalize. She just wanted a fight.
Jane fully believed Kenny was a madman and she wanted Clementine to see it, and to some extent Clem has seen it, just didn't believe it, and Jane wanted Clem to believe it.
Trying to trick a grieving man into thinking his adopted baby has been killed and then using that as an excuse to call him a madman doesn't even prove anything, and it was just sick and twisted to do even if she had good intentions for Clem.
f you really agreed with me, then why does this all sound like "Kenny is a good guy and you should love him and Jane is a bad guy and you should hate her?
I have never said anything like that. You're making all that up on your own.
Which is why she proceeded to beat Kenny down, she thought she was protecting Clem and keeping Kenny from hurting anyone else. Sorry, but "a… morere you alright?' isn't enough, and besides that honestly is a very weird scene to begin with, they end up arguing really badly and then suddenly Kenny asks her if she's okay? Kind of clumsy writing. Kenny didn't run away, he just backed away slowly because he just got cut. Trust me, Kenny was fully intended by that point to beat Jane up, Telltale just resorted to recycling old animations. of course its not fair, and Jane never came off as she got the baby killed it seemed more like she just lost the baby and that set Kenny off, why would she rationalize Kenny if her goal is to show that Kenny is unstable to Clementine? Jane fully believed Kenny was a madman and she wanted Clementine to see it, and to some extent Clem has seen it, just didn't believe it, and Jane wanted Clem to believe it. if you really ag… [view original content]
Belan, you really are trying your hardest to grasp at straws to protect your precious Kenny. Kenny never really showed any real attachment to Jane at all, he doesn't really seem to care if she lives or dies, or leaves, the "are you alright" just comes off as weird. Kenny was losing it, and losing the baby was going to be the fuse that would essentially drive him to kill, He was fully intent on hurting Jane, whether he wanted to or not, may I remind you that Kenny was the one who threw the FIRST PUNCH at Jane and then Jane dodged it, she put her knife away, and Kenny charged at her. Jane said it was an accident and Kenny DID NOT BELIEVE HER and probably still wouldn't if she did rationalize "I'M DONE TALKING CLEM." Kenny only disengaged when he got cut, he was clearly hurting, but in no way was he going to back down, and simply run away from Jane, he wasn't fighting for his life, he was a madman by that point and intended on either beating Jane to death or strangling her. You're better than an extreme hardcore Kenny lover Belan.
Sorry, but "are you alright?' isn't enough, and besides that honestly is a very weird scene to begin with, they end up arguing really badly … moreand then suddenly Kenny asks her if she's okay? Kind of clumsy writing
What? It showed that he cared about her well being. Just because you're in a bad argument with someone doesn't mean you don't actually care about that person. It wasn't clumsy writing at all. And even if it was, it doesn't change anything. Kenny still showed that he actually cared about her well being.
Kenny didn't run away, he just backed away slowly because he just got cut.
Doesn't matter. He disengaged from the fight. That was a perfect opportunity for Jane to explain what was really going on. She was more interested in killing him though.
Trust me, Kenny was fully intended by that point to beat Jane up, Telltale just resorted to recycling old animations
What animations were recycled? Its irrelev… [view original content]
Hail Kenny, full of boats. The stache is with thee. Blessed art thou among urbans and blessed is the fruit of thy loins, Ken Jr. Holy Kenny, Father of Duck, pray for us shitbirds, now and in the hour of our bite. Deliver us to Wellington, and protect us from Ruskie's and all snakes of Jane. Amen.
Ok, I'll concede Kenny wasn't aiming to kill her at first. Could you explain what it was he was going to do after pinning her that required him pinning her in the first place?
Yes, Jane had an agenda, but claiming "she pushed his buttons" isn't an excuse for violent behavior. She only had an agenda because she thought Kenny was a threat to Clementine's safety, and she only thought that because he'd proven it the night before. His violent behavior was what led Mike to trying to run away with Arvo, and to Clem getting shot.
Punching Arvo didn't make Clem safer. Being divisive and belligerent and breaking up the group didn't make Clem safer. And pinning Jane for some unspecified purpose wasn't going to make Clem safer, even if his suspicion that Jane had killed AJ had been right.
Jane was wrong to do what she did, not because he made him be aggressive, but because it's a shitty thing to do. But it was Kenny that took the bait and responded as he always did. That she knew he would react like that is exactly why she did it. Because him reacting like that kept putting Clem in danger.
If he didn't choke her, it's just because he didn't get the opportunity.
Lol. He had her up against the wall and was purposely pinni… moreng her arms. He wouldn't be doing that if he wanted to choke her. The whole time he holds her against the wall that is literally all he does.
When he rams her he grabs her collar with both hands, then once she's against the wallhe moves one forearm to press against her neck. When you apply pressure on someone's neck, you are choking them by definition
No, he did that to help pin her against the wall and nothing else. He wasn't even actually pushing on her throat at all. She talks during this and her speech is completely normal. He was pushing more on her collar bone than her throat. She wasn't choking for air or anything, just struggling to break free of his hold. If Telltale wanted it look like he was choking her then they would have made it obvious, and not just have you grasp at straws.
… [view original content]
Its because he's been around longer that made me dislike this season a little. Too much Kenny fan service. My history with him goes out the window the second he becomes a threat and I say the same about anyone who was losing it like that.
What do you expect to happen if you go up to a parent/adoptive parent/caretaker, especially one with a tendency to get angry often, of a child and say "Oh yeah, that baby that I had? Yeah that thing's dead."
The parent asks, things like, "Is this a joke? What are you saying?" You say it was an accident very vaguely, without giving a proper explanation.
Even if it was me, and I'm a relatively calm person. If someone had my child for a few minutes and said they lost it in an accident, and I had no familial ties or close friendships.
She says it was "an accident" but knowing jane, it's safe to assume she wanted to rid of the baby since she's a selfish bitch.
Even after… more kenny asks her if it's a "joke" that bitch says nothing. We all knew of kenny's bad ways, she just wanted to test him and prove shit. She could've said it was a joke and that the baby is safe. Even after telling her to leave, she says "nu uh i'm not backing down" And then starts to mock kenny. If you kill kenny, she fucking tells clem it "had to be done". She wanted to kill him all along. She thought she'd live and would successfully kill kenny.
sadly for her, that shit back fired. She tells me to "not get involved" yet when her shit went to hell, she's begging clem to help, literally.
Sorry whore, you die tonight. she reaps what she sowed. It's the only logical thing. Plus, kenny actions are justifiable. He was protecting the group, and he did what HAD to be done in my play through. If it weren't … [view original content]
Come on she never implied actually killing the baby! When she showed up at the rest stop she looked shocked and mumbled an apology. Is that implying killing? After Kenny throws the first punch, she says it was an accident. So no, she never implied killing. That was nothing more than an assumption that Kenny made. But as always, Kennys thought of what happened must=the truth.
I disagree. Jane strongly implied to Kenny that she killed the baby and goaded him into a fight.
I understand her point and think that K… moreenny certainly was a danger but in this case she brought that on herself. "I killed your baby! lol just kidding mate" isn't a very good joke.
Comments
She put the knife away, and Kenny just up and charged at her, and was intent on hurting Jane really, really, bad, Kenny wasn't justified in killing Jane. As for Jane, she simply walked into the lion's den and didn't expect Kenny to go THAT FAR, I highly doubt she really intended to kill anyone at all, but at the heat of the moment, she was fighting for her life. Seriously Belan I think you're better than "PRO KENNY IS JESUS and JANE IS THE FUCKEN DEVIL, BURN HER." they're both flawed individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
If you think killing someone who is going to kill for no reason to protect an innocent person is murder than whatever thats your opinion.
All decisions are valid to whoever is making them, there is no objectively right or wrong answer in this regard, it would be nice if people would stop being arrogant when it comes to their decisions, in my opinion. I understand it's is opinion, but I find it flawed and questionable.
But she wouldn't of attacked him, if he stayed calm, and didn't attack her, there wouldn't of been a fight and she'd been wrong about him. And if she did attack him, then i would protect Kenny.
Agreed
I mean, listen to the dialogue, Kenny is clearly the aggressive one, Jane just states she will defend herself if he attacks her, and for him to stay away from her,
That seems like a lot of speculation. All he was doing was holding her to the wall. I mean... I guess the window cracked.. but it isn't hard to crack a window at all. Anyway, he could have easily subdued her in that position if he wanted to. He had complete control over her... and she had her back to the wall (literally and figuratively).
She did though. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter she told Clem that she was going to see Kenny "for what he really is". She was fully expecting him to become violent and dangerous. She was counting on it in order for her plan to work.
She didn't intend on killing him at first, but she was dead set on it once she broke free of his hold from the wall. She kicked the fight up a couple of notches.. and that might be putting it lightly. After she got out her knife and slashed Kenny across the stomach he wanted no part of that fight. He retreated outside, and then Jane followed him. In the event that you tell Kenny to run, she says "not happening", and immediately goes in for the kill. She also has the option to say "I'm going to put him out of his misery", after which she again immediately goes in for the kill.
Seriously, what was the point in her doing that if she was only trying to defend herself? Why could the fight have not stopped right there? Kenny wasn't even doing anything at that point. Jane was very intent on killing him.
I have no idea why you would think I feel this way, as I have never posted anything like that. Jane was one of my favorite characters until she pulled this stunt. I don't think she was totally bad by any means, but she really screwed up here.
I wouldn't disagree with you at all on that.
Yes, but Kenny believed that she had murdered his adopted baby and she purposely did not try to explain herself. Any parent/guardian that comes to this conclusion is going to totally flip out. Its not something that is special to Kenny. Jane needed to rationalize what happened in order to prevent him from flipping out, but she didn't do that because it would have contradicted her plans. Kenny had every reason to believe that she did away with the baby based on who she is as a person (wouldn't be the first time she advocated for leaving a defenseless individual behind), and Jane did nothing to try and rationalize otherwise. She was only interested in getting him to fight... which isn't fair to Kenny at all.
I still think Kenny was intent on hurting Jane, choking her at least, he even threatened to do it in the truck, he was full blown on murdering Jane, after what she supposedly did, I'm sorry, but I saw murder in his eyes when he walked up angrily at the shop. I do have a feeling that after Kenny charged at her at the glass, Jane by that point thought of Kenny as a threat to her and Clementine and proceeded to defend herself and Clem, in my view at least. Why would I think that way? Cause you're treating the whole scenario like Kenny was a victim when he was really part of the problem, when you tell him to let Jane talk, he says he's through talking, that doesn't sound like someone who's willing to listen and not choke or beat someone up. So far I haven't seen any comments where it wasn't Kenny is awesome and Jane is a jerkish murder, I really think you need to at least look at Jane's endings, as if you stay silent during the Invite or leave option, she tells the family they can come in, and that's coming from someone who didn't trust groups at all, she's learned a few things from Clem in a way. so yeah, both Jane and Kenny aren't 100% good nor are they 100% evil.
I disagree. Jane strongly implied to Kenny that she killed the baby and goaded him into a fight.
I understand her point and think that Kenny certainly was a danger but in this case she brought that on herself. "I killed your baby! lol just kidding mate" isn't a very good joke.
That just doesn't make any sense to me. You're basically saying everyone should have undefinable opinions in terms of whether they are right or wrong, and yet you're saying his opinion of thinking that he is right is a wrong opinion to have. Just sounds like contradictive logic to me.
I mean, I definitely think I'm correct in my reasoning on this subject as well. That is why I have been spending time debating the point. If you don't think there is a right and wrong opinion on the matter then why are you wasting time trying to change people's opinions? If you don't think their opinion is wrong or that their reasoning is flawed then what is the point? I don't see why people disagreeing with one another needs to be seen as arrogant or immature.
She says it was an accident, but he doesn't believe her. (He had no proof, was being irrational.)
I am simply opposing the notion of people claiming their opinion, decision, choice, are objectively fact and everyone should feel ashamed or like an idiot for feeling the opposite, and then it gets to the ugly point of people insulting someone's personal well being because they made a choice, decision, or opinion, they didn't care for. I am against that.
And if you try to stop Kenny instead of Jane, he pushes you over, just like her.
Don't bother Belan, people who jump at the chance to talk to you about relativism and subjectivity are boring and never make a point.
There's almost no reason to respond to them.
Boring? Where'd the hell did you get that from? Never make a point? Because you disagree or don't believe me? I'll gladly wait for an arrogant, snobbish response.
Aii m8 they dont kno teh pwer of Kenny's beer!
Saying "it was an accident" one time isn't going to change the mind of someone who thinks their child has been murdered. No one would be that completely rational in that situation. You're not really being realistic. Jane purposely kept it vague and did not try to rationalize either. Again, she wanted to fight.
No, I think he meant what he said. Clem did the right thing. Kenny knew how dangerous he was becoming. If you point the gun at him after the fight, he even tells you to do it. He wasn't well and he knew it.
But he never choked her. All he did was hold her up against the wall. If he really wanted to do something more to hurt her there he easily could have done it. Almost anything was on the table, considering he had her completely under control. He was just content to hold her there though.
Entirely different scenario though, as it was likely an empty threat. He just wanted her to stop insulting him over his family. He almost crashed the truck shortly after this, and he immediately asked Jane is she was all right... even before he asked about the baby. He was concerned about her.
If that was true she would have tried to stop the fight, not turn it into a fight to the death. As I said before, Kenny actually ran away from her at one point, but she followed him because she wanted to kill him. It went far beyond defending herself.
Because its not fair when the entire thing was a set up and the fight was instigated by Jane. You don't just pretend like you got someone's child kid, sorry. And of course Kenny is going to say hes done talking. That doesn't mean Jane wouldn't have been able to rationalize with him. There isn't any reason to just assume that Kenny was too far gone to be pulled back.
Like I said in my previous post, I agree with you on that.
Alright, but the guy wasn't being that way at all.
Not sure if you're bringing that up as a random aside or what... but that has nothing to do with what I was trying to show in that GIF. She just kind did that as a bonus. Wasn't criticizing her for it.
I'm talking about her dialogue there, and the fact that she slashed and stabbed at Kenny when he had disengaged in the fight.
It was difficult for me to kill Kenny as well, We've been through a LOT of shit together. But It had to be done.
Well.. I'm sure no one feels great after stabbing someone through the chest, whether justified or not. I'm sure he probably wasn't even sure if he did the right thing.
Saying he didn't want to choke her when he pinned her is ridiculous. He was trying to kill her. He certainly had no reason to want to restrain her, and he wasn't in a state of mind to do so. Besides, she wasn't a threat to him or Clem, so why else would he want to pin her?
And not explaining yourself properly is no excuse to try to murder someone. Why would anyone think she wanted to kill the baby? If she'd wanted to leave the baby to die, she could have left it in the car. She took off with it, so the reasonable explanation is she tried to save him, but couldn't. Otherwise what, you think she took it as a decoy? Nothing about her behavior would lead to the conclusion that she purposefully killed the baby.
She says it was "an accident" but knowing jane, it's safe to assume she wanted to rid of the baby since she's a selfish bitch.
Even after kenny asks her if it's a "joke" that bitch says nothing. We all knew of kenny's bad ways, she just wanted to test him and prove shit. She could've said it was a joke and that the baby is safe. Even after telling her to leave, she says "nu uh i'm not backing down" And then starts to mock kenny. If you kill kenny, she fucking tells clem it "had to be done". She wanted to kill him all along. She thought she'd live and would successfully kill kenny.
sadly for her, that shit back fired. She tells me to "not get involved" yet when her shit went to hell, she's begging clem to help, literally.
Sorry whore, you die tonight. she reaps what she sowed. It's the only logical thing. Plus, kenny actions are justifiable. He was protecting the group, and he did what HAD to be done in my play through. If it weren't kenny killing jane, It would've been me. After she came without that baby I WISH i had the option kenny were to hold her down and i'll behead her.
Which is why she proceeded to beat Kenny down, she thought she was protecting Clem and keeping Kenny from hurting anyone else. Sorry, but "are you alright?' isn't enough, and besides that honestly is a very weird scene to begin with, they end up arguing really badly and then suddenly Kenny asks her if she's okay? Kind of clumsy writing. Kenny didn't run away, he just backed away slowly because he just got cut. Trust me, Kenny was fully intended by that point to beat Jane up, Telltale just resorted to recycling old animations. of course its not fair, and Jane never came off as she got the baby killed it seemed more like she just lost the baby and that set Kenny off, why would she rationalize Kenny if her goal is to show that Kenny is unstable to Clementine? Jane fully believed Kenny was a madman and she wanted Clementine to see it, and to some extent Clem has seen it, just didn't believe it, and Jane wanted Clem to believe it. if you really agreed with me, then why does this all sound like "Kenny is a good guy and you should love him and Jane is a bad guy and you should hate her? Belan, what the hell is going on here?!!
If he didn't choke her, it's just because he didn't get the opportunity. Check here,
2:16. When he rams her he grabs her collar with both hands, then once she's against the wallhe moves one forearm to press against her neck. When you apply pressure on someone's neck, you are choking them by definition. You can't pin someone by their necks without choking them. He didn't get to control the situation because she clawed at her eye, which probably hurt like hell and kept him from applying more strength. But you can't say that someone who is choking someone doesn't mean to choke them.
And as far as Kenny could have seen, Jane's behavior would have matched that of someone who was ashamed, which is what would happen if you failed to protect a baby. You don't go from an accident to murder without any kind of proof.
As for Jane then keeping the fight going, well, yeah. He only backed out once she got the better of him, but he'd already shown he was willing to kill her. Would you turn your back on someone who is only not trying to kill you because you got the better of him momentarily? Because that's what ending the fight there meant. How can you sleep again knowing that the person holding watch has it out for you and is just waiting for a chance to get even? It's not like Kenny is big on forgiveness.
Clearly you do not remember him doing the same thing to Mike back in Episode Three. You're assuming he was trying to kill her without having anything to base it on. Just because you pin someone that doesn't mean you're trying to choke them. He was just getting in her face. I love how any form of violence done by Kenny in this episode is instantly equated to him trying to kill someone. By your logic, Kenny totally tried to kill Lee on the train in Episode Three of Season One. Heck, he potentially gives Lee a worse beatdown than what he was doing to Jane before she decided to escalate the fight into a battle to the death.
First off, Kenny was not trying to murder her until it came down to defending his own life. Second of all, Jane was clearly BS'ing considering she did nothing to try and explain the situation. Kenny thought it was murder, and as an enraged protector of that baby, it was Jane's job to calm the situation down. Any parent would have been out of their mind in that situation. Saying "it was an accident" is not going to calm the situation down. All she did was try to escalate.. because that was her agenda.
Not like Jane has ever purposely left anyone behind before because of them being a liability... right?
Umm.. no. There is no way that is "the" reasonable explanation. Maybe the idea didn't occur to her until after she had left the vehicle. There are a ton of different variables. Maybe the baby was crying and calling walkers to her attention so she decided to give the baby up because it was a liability to the situation?
Abandoning defenseless Sarah, abandoning her little sister, wants to abandon Kenny, tells the story where she implies that her old group should have abandoned a man that got stuck under a truck, constantly talks about not having other people drag her down. She is more concerned about her own survival than she is about keeping other human beings safe. She isn't exactly a morally sound individual who would never think about abandoning a baby if it was putting her own life in danger.
And you must not remember him beating Avro and almost killing the little fuck a few hours earlier, for doing exactly what he said he was doing: leading them to the house they had been staying at. Oh wait, he also hurried his pace to not get eaten. Yeah, that deserves a brutal beating. But hey, Kenny was probably not going to kill him, he really knows just how many punches to the face are safe before killing someone.
As for Jane, leaving someone behind is not purposefully killing them. Unless you think it's reasonable to expect someone to die trying to protect someone they can't save (evidenced by the fact that they die trying), none of those situations are her killing someone. Yes, Jane put her own survival ahead, but she never did it at the expense of someone else. She never set someone up to take the fall for her.
And again, her first instinct was to take the baby, so that shows her instinct was to protect it. If she fails but survives, and you take that as "killing the baby", then you are saying that she should have died failing to save the baby, because that's the only outcome you don't consider killing it.
He didn't almost kill him. He punched him three times and was done. By the time Mike pulled him off, Kenny was just sitting on top of him. Arvo wasn't even knocked unconscious let alone "almost killed". Like I said above, beating someone up doesn't = trying to kill them.
Well lets see here. He also had held up the group at gunpoint and led them into a very dangerous gun fight only a day prior. As for the ice incident, he was not in danger of getting eaten. Lets be real here. He was at the front of the pack. What he did was very selfish, especially since he knew how dangerous that surface was, considering he lived there. So after playing a hand in an attempted robbery, mass murder attempt, and playing a hand in Luke's death, he had the gall to insult Kenny immediately afterwards? Arvo was a complete scumbag. Punching him in the face three times was not a big deal, and it doesn't mean anything towards the Jane situation.
Three punches to the face is not going to kill someone. Arvo didn't even lose consciousness. He was actually totally fine other than being bruised and bloodied. Its called beating someone up. There is a big difference between that and intentionally going for the kill.
I mean, by your logic, it is an absolute miracle that Andy survived Lee's onslaught of punches in Episode Two of Season One. He hit him a lot more than three times, and potentially messed him up a lot worse. Lee must have totally been going for the kill too.. right?
You're splitting hairs and not really changing the argument. She wasn't willing to protect people who couldn't protect themselves. The baby obviously could not protect itself. Its the same thing as her dragging her sister around, she even said she had to carry her at times. So if she thought going out of her way to protect the baby meant putting herself in danger, there is no reason to think that she would not have abandoned it somewhere.
Doesn't change the fact that she could have abandoned the baby like she abandoned so many others.
So? Even if it was her first instinct you don't know that it couldn't have changed. She may not have even thought about what she was doing. She already had the baby in her arms when the truck crashed. The only other alternative would have been to drop the baby and run. And seeing as Clem was right there, she wouldn't have done that.
Umm... what? No, you're making that connection totally on your own.
Lol. He had her up against the wall and was purposely pinning her arms. He wouldn't be doing that if he wanted to choke her. The whole time he holds her against the wall that is literally all he does.
No, he did that to help pin her against the wall and nothing else. He wasn't even actually pushing on her throat at all. She talks during this and her speech is completely normal. He was pushing more on her collar bone than her throat. She wasn't choking for air or anything, just struggling to break free of his hold. If Telltale wanted it look like he was choking her then they would have made it obvious, and not just have you grasp at straws.
He does the same move to Mike in Episode Three, and he clearly want not trying to choke him to death.
Obviously Mike wasn't struggling like Jane was, but it's the same thing.
Then why did it take her so long to break free? Kenny could have done so many things during that time frame if he actually wanted to kill her. But nope, all he does is hold there. Doesn't do anything with lethal intentions.
Because Kenny obviously wasn't choking her.
Wasn't murder. He was fighting for his life at that point.
Jane wasn't ashamed, that was very obvious. She was acting like nothing even happened, and intentionally being shady. Kenny thought she had killed his baby, of course he is going to be beyond furious. Any parent/ guardian would be. She needed to explain herself, but that went against her agenda. All she does is try to escalate the situation.
No. He did not show that was willing to kill her. Again, a fight doesn't equal trying to kill someone. Kenny literally showed nothing in terms of trying to kill her.
Doesn't matter, because she was the one who wanted the fight in the first place. She was the one who manipulated the situation. At any time she could have called the fight off and told Kenny that she had the baby alive somewhere. You reap what you sow.
What? It showed that he cared about her well being. Just because you're in a bad argument with someone doesn't mean you don't actually care about that person. It wasn't clumsy writing at all. And even if it was, it doesn't change anything. Kenny still showed that he actually cared about her well being.
Doesn't matter. He disengaged from the fight. That was a perfect opportunity for Jane to explain what was really going on. She was more interested in killing him though.
What animations were recycled? Its irrelevant if they were anyway. We can only go off of what we have instead of making baseless speculations.
But yes, Kenny obviously intended to get violent with her. But at the point that he disengaged from the fight everything could have ended, and likely would have ended if Jane didn't try killing him.
Didn't seem like that in Kenny's eyes, and that's all that matters. If it was an accident then why didn't she try explaining herself? Why wasn't she broken up about it? Why wasn't she apologetic? She was intentionally trying to stir up a fight.
Yes, that is the point I have been making. You're admitting that Jane did not try and rationalize her actions because she was pushing an agenda. Kenny thought she had killed his adopted baby and she wasn't even willing to try and rationalize. She just wanted a fight.
Trying to trick a grieving man into thinking his adopted baby has been killed and then using that as an excuse to call him a madman doesn't even prove anything, and it was just sick and twisted to do even if she had good intentions for Clem.
I have never said anything like that. You're making all that up on your own.
You keep telling yourself that when you wake up screaming... Just kiddin lol
Belan, you really are trying your hardest to grasp at straws to protect your precious Kenny. Kenny never really showed any real attachment to Jane at all, he doesn't really seem to care if she lives or dies, or leaves, the "are you alright" just comes off as weird. Kenny was losing it, and losing the baby was going to be the fuse that would essentially drive him to kill, He was fully intent on hurting Jane, whether he wanted to or not, may I remind you that Kenny was the one who threw the FIRST PUNCH at Jane and then Jane dodged it, she put her knife away, and Kenny charged at her. Jane said it was an accident and Kenny DID NOT BELIEVE HER and probably still wouldn't if she did rationalize "I'M DONE TALKING CLEM." Kenny only disengaged when he got cut, he was clearly hurting, but in no way was he going to back down, and simply run away from Jane, he wasn't fighting for his life, he was a madman by that point and intended on either beating Jane to death or strangling her. You're better than an extreme hardcore Kenny lover Belan.
Hail Kenny, full of boats. The stache is with thee. Blessed art thou among urbans and blessed is the fruit of thy loins, Ken Jr. Holy Kenny, Father of Duck, pray for us shitbirds, now and in the hour of our bite. Deliver us to Wellington, and protect us from Ruskie's and all snakes of Jane. Amen.
Ok, I'll concede Kenny wasn't aiming to kill her at first. Could you explain what it was he was going to do after pinning her that required him pinning her in the first place?
Yes, Jane had an agenda, but claiming "she pushed his buttons" isn't an excuse for violent behavior. She only had an agenda because she thought Kenny was a threat to Clementine's safety, and she only thought that because he'd proven it the night before. His violent behavior was what led Mike to trying to run away with Arvo, and to Clem getting shot.
Punching Arvo didn't make Clem safer. Being divisive and belligerent and breaking up the group didn't make Clem safer. And pinning Jane for some unspecified purpose wasn't going to make Clem safer, even if his suspicion that Jane had killed AJ had been right.
Jane was wrong to do what she did, not because he made him be aggressive, but because it's a shitty thing to do. But it was Kenny that took the bait and responded as he always did. That she knew he would react like that is exactly why she did it. Because him reacting like that kept putting Clem in danger.
Its because he's been around longer that made me dislike this season a little. Too much Kenny fan service. My history with him goes out the window the second he becomes a threat and I say the same about anyone who was losing it like that.
What do you expect to happen if you go up to a parent/adoptive parent/caretaker, especially one with a tendency to get angry often, of a child and say "Oh yeah, that baby that I had? Yeah that thing's dead."
The parent asks, things like, "Is this a joke? What are you saying?" You say it was an accident very vaguely, without giving a proper explanation.
Even if it was me, and I'm a relatively calm person. If someone had my child for a few minutes and said they lost it in an accident, and I had no familial ties or close friendships.
I. Would. ****ing. Murder. Them.
Come on she never implied actually killing the baby! When she showed up at the rest stop she looked shocked and mumbled an apology. Is that implying killing? After Kenny throws the first punch, she says it was an accident. So no, she never implied killing. That was nothing more than an assumption that Kenny made. But as always, Kennys thought of what happened must=the truth.