Yeah you have a choice to not forgive Nick and get him killed, guess what, after Walter shoots Nick, she's upset at him.
You have a choice to act like a jerk to Sarah, guess what, when she dies in the trailer or on the deck, you can see it again, she cared, what she says, or minimally her expression.
Well I haven't seen how Clem reacts after Bonnie dies.
Yeah you have a choice to not forgive Nick and get him killed, guess what, after Walter shoots Nick, she's upset at him.
You have a choic… moree to act like a jerk to Sarah, guess what, when she dies in the trailer or on the deck, you can see it again, she cared, what she says, or minimally her expression.
Well I haven't seen how Clem reacts after Bonnie dies.
People make mistakes in trusting though. You can't say it was lazy just because we didn't know they were capable of that. People do flake irl. It doesn't mean they were out of character
It was incredibly shocking because the writing was poor. There's a difference between, "oh, man, should have seen that coming!", and "what t… morehe hell? Why did that just happen? It doesn't jive at all with what's led up to this point!" Just my thoughts on it.
People make mistakes in trusting though. You can't say it was lazy just because we didn't know they were capable of that. People do flake irl. It doesn't mean they were out of character
After episode 3 - in alternate universe, that son of a bitch would drop Clem from the rope and breaking her back if she didn't grab the ladder in time. Screw him. >:(
After episode 4 - what a great guy, helping Clem with everything. I'll definitily consider keeping him around
After finale - they have a special place in hell for you @_@
I agree. It worked because it was completely unexpected, but IMO justified. A huge slap in the face to all the Mike and Bonnie fans that app… moreeared after episode 4, though. It's honestly hilarious to see so many people go from "TEAM MIKE!" to "FUCK MIKE AND BONNIE!"
Unsure, Telltale kill characters for shock value remember? People acting different is like that but not as bad really, I dislike the shock value thing, it ruined Nick and Sarah but Telltale seem to think they must do it
It still feels odd that Mike would leave Clem and the baby like that. I can kind of see Bonnie doing this but I'm just as surprised as Kenny to find Mike involved.
I admit it was a nice surprise that they all survived, although that calls the aim of the Russians into serious question. Found it kind of o… moredd that Mike seemed pretty good even though he was yelling that he got hit. Maybe just a graze or something...
My problem was the way they went about it would have doomed Clem, AJ, and Jane too for no reason, when their beef was with Kenny. Maybe if they took one bag but left the other along with the baby formula, I'd go a little easier on them. Hell, I certainly have no qualms with them wanting to leave Kenny. But they were painted to be so uncaring about those who weren't in on their plan that it just didn't make sense to me.
I wouldn't have found it too bad if they'd at least left ONE bag of supplies behind. But they were taking EVERYTHING. That's so extremely selfish, especially when there are two kids in the group.
Might as well have slit our throats while we were sleeping if they were gonna do that.
I noticed Mike showing to much interest in Arvo. He knew Arvo could navigate the area. When Bonnie pulled out a bottle of wine, I thought that was shady. The story made sense. Think about the situation. They had limited supplies that they kept mentioning but Bonnie pulls out a bottle that no one else knew about? The signs were there .
So if you cover Luke, Bonnie gets mad at you, if you help Luke, she isn't. If you help him, what do you think of this if Bonnie accidentally calls Clem Dee when she was shot and if you cover him she wants to go and accidentally tells Mike, "Leland, I need you."?
Actually, if it comes out of nowhere and goes completely against pre-established characterization, that's pretty much the definition of "out of character". What matters at that point is whether or not it can be justified beyond, "well, sometimes people do crazy stuff..." Otherwise, during season 3 Clementine can suddenly get an evil grin and slaughter someone who threatens her life and laugh about it and then go back to normal and we would just have to accept that, "well, we didn't know whether or not Clementine had an evil side to her... or something..."
Something like Ben betraying the group was a shock, but it made sense given how little we knew about him other than that he was a bit cowardly, and that he had a connection to the bandits harassing the group. Mike and Bonnie had been nothing but helpful and protective of the baby up until then, but suddenly were willing to take off in the night and apparently leave Clem and AJ behind as well.
People make mistakes in trusting though. You can't say it was lazy just because we didn't know they were capable of that. People do flake irl. It doesn't mean they were out of character
But at the same time, Mike agrees to leave Clem and Jane without any of their supplies? They're leaving a little girl and the woman that saved the group to die.
I never trusted bonnie. i gave her some rope and she hung me with it. I understand why mike wanted to split because to him kenny was just a monster in the making.
Yeah, I think it was very well written and shocking. Now that we can look back at it, it seems very obvious they weren't to be trusted as deeply as we could trust Kenny (for some people not everyone) and Luke and in general the cabin group.
I never liked Bonnie, and Mike is still a okay guy to me. Arvo will get a bullet from me next time we meet. And Bonnie too, depending on how pissed off I still am about Luke's death, Oh, A LOT.
Yeah, I don't think it was lazy writing at all. They were simply showing their true colors, and a lot of people were shocked by this.
If we talk about lazy writing, I say SEASON 2 EP. 4 was the best contender for this award.
Mike and Bonnie wanting to leave wasn't out of character. Mike deciding to steal the supplies, steal Kenny's truck, and leave Clem behind after she is shot is out of character. Bonnie going along with Mike was in character. She was a weak follower who couldn't be trusted because she says one thing but goes with the flow.
The whole reason Mike was leaving was because he didn't like how Kenny was treating people. So he takes the high road by becoming a thief and leaving Clem, Jane, Kenny, and AJ to die? If Mike was taking the high road, he would have said, "Let's split the supplies. Kenny, you're dangerous and you aren't coming with me. Everyone pick who want to go with. Kenny fixed the truck, so it's his. He gets to keep it."
The idea of the betrayal was good but the execution wasn't quite there. Mike carried heavy water jugs to help deliver AJ, then leaves AJ behind to die? There needed to be a bit more development to explain that Mike is really a bad person who was just pretending, waiting for his moment to steal the supplies and leave people to die. But if he's really so bad, why would he take Arvo with him? That's kind of where it falls apart. How can Mike be a good guy who is trying to save Arvo at the expense of Clem and AJ? Or how can he be a bad guy that is taking Arvo? And why does Mike feel this is the only way, rather than just having a discussion to dissolve the group?
It wasn't lazy writing. It was just bad. In my playthrough, Bonnie and Mike were reasonable people concerned about Clementine's well being up until 5 minutes before their escape, especially Bonnie, would told Clem she needed to start thinking about what she wants. The escape itself was an okay-ish twist and you could understand why they wanted to leave, but it wasn't that well written and felt incredibly forced and out of character (seriously, how could they leave Clementine and the baby without ANY food? And don't say that "good people do bad things sometimes". Taking the truck is debatable since they were afraid that Kenny and Jane might go after them, but taking all the food and leave Clem bleeding to death is way out of character and is not a bad thing, it's plain evil.)
This exactly. If Bonnie and Mike had tried to get Clem and AJ to come with them, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But after Luke dies, Bonnie is just... weird, she's not the same character, even more so if you don't help Luke. If you don't, once Clem's been shot, she even says "Lets just leave her!", Bonnie would've never left Clem for dead, after how bad she felt over the Carver situation, there's just nothing you can tell me to convince me she wasn't anything but out of character the entire time after Luke dies. And the really random hinting that Bonnie and Luke had something was just so out of no where and contrived that didn't help anything either.
Actually, if it comes out of nowhere and goes completely against pre-established characterization, that's pretty much the definition of "out… more of character". What matters at that point is whether or not it can be justified beyond, "well, sometimes people do crazy stuff..." Otherwise, during season 3 Clementine can suddenly get an evil grin and slaughter someone who threatens her life and laugh about it and then go back to normal and we would just have to accept that, "well, we didn't know whether or not Clementine had an evil side to her... or something..."
Something like Ben betraying the group was a shock, but it made sense given how little we knew about him other than that he was a bit cowardly, and that he had a connection to the bandits harassing the group. Mike and Bonnie had been nothing but helpful and protective of the baby up until then, but suddenly were willing to take off in the night and apparently leave Clem and AJ behind as well.
I'm pretty pissed at how Mike just went completely out of character. He seemed like a reasonable and good guy in episodes 3-4 but then in episode 5 he's like, "omg arvo, u lost ur sistur ;(((" and completely forgets that Arvo had screwed them over several times. Plus you could originally SHOOT him. Who the fuck would do that? After he saved your life last episode (determinately) and was the voice of reason to Kenny in his time of darkness.
Then Bonnie, I mean, she was obviously not a bad person, she just made bad choices and she tried to befriend Clementine. But now, she chooses to leave her alone with two psychos (Jane was fucking nuts) and a baby. Right.
And then Arvo, even if you didn't take the supplies from him, still fucking shoots you! What?! I'd understand that if you could kill Mike, that makes sense, but you can't in the final game and he shoots you even if you give Mike the gun and don't steal from him. I dunno.
And then if you cover Luke, Mike is concerned for your safety after you get shot. But if you try to save Luke Bonnie is concerned and Mike wants to leave. Why? What reason would Mike have for wanting to leave? It would have been much better if both Mike and Bonnie were crying over Clementine and then Kenny came out. Or if this scene didn't happen at all.
Actually, if it comes out of nowhere and goes completely against pre-established characterization, that's pretty much the definition of "out… more of character". What matters at that point is whether or not it can be justified beyond, "well, sometimes people do crazy stuff..." Otherwise, during season 3 Clementine can suddenly get an evil grin and slaughter someone who threatens her life and laugh about it and then go back to normal and we would just have to accept that, "well, we didn't know whether or not Clementine had an evil side to her... or something..."
Something like Ben betraying the group was a shock, but it made sense given how little we knew about him other than that he was a bit cowardly, and that he had a connection to the bandits harassing the group. Mike and Bonnie had been nothing but helpful and protective of the baby up until then, but suddenly were willing to take off in the night and apparently leave Clem and AJ behind as well.
That's not at all how characterization works. The writing is what determines to the audience who a character is, not how much time the main character has spent with said character. Clementine didn't need to know Carver for any more than the ten minutes he was in the cabin for us to determine that his character was mysterious, looking for your new companions, was intelligent and calculating, and held a threatening air to him. Characters can change over time, yes, but again, the writing does that. For example, after all the horrible things he did in episode 2, if Carver jumped into danger to save Clementine from a walker in episode 3, that would then contribute something more to his characterization for the audience to notice, even if his reasons for doing so are not made clear to Clementine herself. Little things like that are what make a character; we don't need a main character to tell us everything we need to know about another character.
However, when characters change to suit the writing, rather than the other way around, we get what we got in No Going Back. Also, they clearly didn't "show their true colors", because both of them (determinant for Bonnie) still show that they care about Clementine by reacting in horror when she's shot. That would be fine, except that it doesn't match with the fact that they were planning to leave her with no supplies which would have doomed her anyway. This is what happens when characterization doesn't work or is contradictory; the characters are now all over the map because their behaviors are so inconsistent to serve the writing which needed to get them out of the story in a clumsy way.
That's not at all how characterization works. The writing is what determines to the audience who a character is, not how much time the main … morecharacter has spent with said character. Clementine didn't need to know Carver for any more than the ten minutes he was in the cabin for us to determine that his character was mysterious, looking for your new companions, was intelligent and calculating, and held a threatening air to him. Characters can change over time, yes, but again, the writing does that. For example, after all the horrible things he did in episode 2, if Carver jumped into danger to save Clementine from a walker in episode 3, that would then contribute something more to his characterization for the audience to notice, even if his reasons for doing so are not made clear to Clementine herself. Little things like that are what make a character; we don't need a main character to tell us everything we need to know about another character.
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I don't think it was bad writing personally. It was subtle, but the tension between Mike and Kenny was there. Right after Kenny attacks Arvo in the cabin, Mike even says he can't put up with this. I'm not surprised by Bonnie at all. She's been flip flopping all season and she's easily persuaded.
At first I thought it was a clever, shocking, twist.
My gripe is that it falls apart when you realise they found beating up the guy who got two of their group killed too far, but they were perfectly willing to let a nine year old and a baby die in the cold instead.
So yeah, it does kind of feel like their personalities took a hit just to force it on us.
Yeah, that part made no sense to me either. They spend all episode overly concerned with Arvo cuz he was a kid, but then they go and steal all the supplies and only working car and effectively leave 2 kids, both younger then Arvo, to die? Like, I dont understand what would make them prioritize Arvo over Clem and AJ?
I admit it was a nice surprise that they all survived, although that calls the aim of the Russians into serious question. Found it kind of o… moredd that Mike seemed pretty good even though he was yelling that he got hit. Maybe just a graze or something...
My problem was the way they went about it would have doomed Clem, AJ, and Jane too for no reason, when their beef was with Kenny. Maybe if they took one bag but left the other along with the baby formula, I'd go a little easier on them. Hell, I certainly have no qualms with them wanting to leave Kenny. But they were painted to be so uncaring about those who weren't in on their plan that it just didn't make sense to me.
Well, in Nick and Sarahs case I think it was less about "shock value" and more that they had to kill them since they were "Determined" and keeping up both versions of the story would be too much of a strain.
Unsure, Telltale kill characters for shock value remember? People acting different is like that but not as bad really, I dislike the shock value thing, it ruined Nick and Sarah but Telltale seem to think they must do it
That's not at all how characterization works. The writing is what determines to the audience who a character is, not how much time the main … morecharacter has spent with said character. Clementine didn't need to know Carver for any more than the ten minutes he was in the cabin for us to determine that his character was mysterious, looking for your new companions, was intelligent and calculating, and held a threatening air to him. Characters can change over time, yes, but again, the writing does that. For example, after all the horrible things he did in episode 2, if Carver jumped into danger to save Clementine from a walker in episode 3, that would then contribute something more to his characterization for the audience to notice, even if his reasons for doing so are not made clear to Clementine herself. Little things like that are what make a character; we don't need a main character to tell us everything we need to know about another character.
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Very true, it isn't that they had to be written out that irritates me, it's the careless way it was done ;/ In Season 1 Doug and Carley got lots of good dialogue despite determinant. Ben was an important part of the story if you didn't drop him from the bell tower. In S2 Pete even though not the longest determinant character got a very good scene with Clem and saved her, Alvin too. It just seemed odd to have Nick and Sarah build a relationship with Clem only to make them determinant, drop their character arcs and dialogue and kill Nick offscreen, kill Sarah in the same ep we save her in
Well, in Nick and Sarahs case I think it was less about "shock value" and more that they had to kill them since they were "Determined" and keeping up both versions of the story would be too much of a strain.
I never trusted Bonnie so her trying to leave and not thinking about Clem and AJ didn't really surprise me. Plus she's a junkie, they are incredibly selfish.
What I am curious about though with Bonnie is if anyone noticed her statements about "having been with a lot of men" and "thinking that there ahd to be a different way". I thought the real reason she wanted to leave wasn't because she was jealous of the Luke/Jane thing because she had the hots for Luke but rather that she had the hots for Jane and couldn't stand to be around her.
I never trusted Bonnie so her trying to leave and not thinking about Clem and AJ didn't really surprise me. Plus she's a junkie, they are in… morecredibly selfish.
What I am curious about though with Bonnie is if anyone noticed her statements about "having been with a lot of men" and "thinking that there ahd to be a different way". I thought the real reason she wanted to leave wasn't because she was jealous of the Luke/Jane thing because she had the hots for Luke but rather that she had the hots for Jane and couldn't stand to be around her.
Yeah, the Sarah thing seemed super harsh. I think that death is even worse then then just leaving her. Cuz if she comes with you then it means she decided that she wanted to live, that she fought through her issues and that there was hope for her. But then nope! She dies.
Very true, it isn't that they had to be written out that irritates me, it's the careless way it was done ;/ In Season 1 Doug and Carley got … morelots of good dialogue despite determinant. Ben was an important part of the story if you didn't drop him from the bell tower. In S2 Pete even though not the longest determinant character got a very good scene with Clem and saved her, Alvin too. It just seemed odd to have Nick and Sarah build a relationship with Clem only to make them determinant, drop their character arcs and dialogue and kill Nick offscreen, kill Sarah in the same ep we save her in
Exactly. What happened with Bonnie was a super rude shock. But I believed it was a case of Clem being taken for granted. Clem has been, and was expected to risk limb and life to save the day and for everyone in the group despite being an eleven year old. The moment she refuses to do that or fails to save the day as usual, she's suddenly as useful as that dirt on your shoe. That really pisses me off. Plus Bonnie and Mike didn't even hesitate to leave with all the supplies, which is an effective death sentence to Jane, Kenny, Clem and AJ.
At that point I don't really understand why there's no option to shoot or even keep the gun as you wind up giving up the gun. Seeing the way Bonnie and Mike behaved, it just makes ZERO sense.
This exactly. If Bonnie and Mike had tried to get Clem and AJ to come with them, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But after Luke dies, Bon… morenie is just... weird, she's not the same character, even more so if you don't help Luke. If you don't, once Clem's been shot, she even says "Lets just leave her!", Bonnie would've never left Clem for dead, after how bad she felt over the Carver situation, there's just nothing you can tell me to convince me she wasn't anything but out of character the entire time after Luke dies. And the really random hinting that Bonnie and Luke had something was just so out of no where and contrived that didn't help anything either.
I'll say it again - Sarah should have been able to have been saved when the deck collapsed by Jane.... then die in the shootout. THAT would have been a better death. Especially if you got to talk to her one more time like you did with Pete.
Yeah, the Sarah thing seemed super harsh. I think that death is even worse then then just leaving her. Cuz if she comes with you then it mea… morens she decided that she wanted to live, that she fought through her issues and that there was hope for her. But then nope! She dies.
Actually it doesnt go against BONNIE'S character. Her character IS to make stupid decisions and put Clem and others she's with at risk. She did so with the last group she was with too (and wound up killing that woman). Then she sided with Carver even when the new group was nice to her. Then put Clem at risk with the zombie in the museum. Then tries to put Clem at risk on the ice. It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk. Mike's a bit more of a shock though I somehow think he was just a follower and it was Bonnie's idea (probably also Bonnie's idea to steal all the supplies).
Mike strikes me as a real 'follower' mentality, and I'm pretty sure he would have taken Clem with him if that little punk Arvo didnt shoot Clem (at which point Mike had to flee because he knew he would get killed by Jane AND Kenny for what Arvo did).
Actually, if it comes out of nowhere and goes completely against pre-established characterization, that's pretty much the definition of "out… more of character". What matters at that point is whether or not it can be justified beyond, "well, sometimes people do crazy stuff..." Otherwise, during season 3 Clementine can suddenly get an evil grin and slaughter someone who threatens her life and laugh about it and then go back to normal and we would just have to accept that, "well, we didn't know whether or not Clementine had an evil side to her... or something..."
Something like Ben betraying the group was a shock, but it made sense given how little we knew about him other than that he was a bit cowardly, and that he had a connection to the bandits harassing the group. Mike and Bonnie had been nothing but helpful and protective of the baby up until then, but suddenly were willing to take off in the night and apparently leave Clem and AJ behind as well.
Comments
Yeah you have a choice to not forgive Nick and get him killed, guess what, after Walter shoots Nick, she's upset at him.
You have a choice to act like a jerk to Sarah, guess what, when she dies in the trailer or on the deck, you can see it again, she cared, what she says, or minimally her expression.
Well I haven't seen how Clem reacts after Bonnie dies.
Actually, you can be completely fine about Nick's death and lie to Carlos that you don't know what happened.
She cares when Sarah dies, but at least you had the option to not sympathize with her beforehand.
People make mistakes in trusting though. You can't say it was lazy just because we didn't know they were capable of that. People do flake irl. It doesn't mean they were out of character
Well, this is a story, not much of a documentary, so characters probably need to be a little consistent.
Yeah that was a crazy route for me.
After episode 3 - in alternate universe, that son of a bitch would drop Clem from the rope and breaking her back if she didn't grab the ladder in time. Screw him. >:(
After episode 4 - what a great guy, helping Clem with everything. I'll definitily consider keeping him around
After finale - they have a special place in hell for you @_@
Unsure, Telltale kill characters for shock value remember? People acting different is like that but not as bad really, I dislike the shock value thing, it ruined Nick and Sarah but Telltale seem to think they must do it
They where so edgy, letting the limp 5'5 guy with glasses shoot a 12 yo girl and all.
It still feels odd that Mike would leave Clem and the baby like that. I can kind of see Bonnie doing this but I'm just as surprised as Kenny to find Mike involved.
I wouldn't have found it too bad if they'd at least left ONE bag of supplies behind. But they were taking EVERYTHING. That's so extremely selfish, especially when there are two kids in the group.
Might as well have slit our throats while we were sleeping if they were gonna do that.
My thoughts on Mike and Bonnie
After playing Amid The Ruins: Team Bike for life, they're so awesome and nice, TellTale please don't kill them.
After playing No Going Back: FUCK YOU MIKE AND FUCK YOU BONNIE, I HOPE YOU FREEZE TO DEATH LIKE LUKE YOU BACKSTABBING RATS!
I noticed Mike showing to much interest in Arvo. He knew Arvo could navigate the area. When Bonnie pulled out a bottle of wine, I thought that was shady. The story made sense. Think about the situation. They had limited supplies that they kept mentioning but Bonnie pulls out a bottle that no one else knew about? The signs were there .
So if you cover Luke, Bonnie gets mad at you, if you help Luke, she isn't. If you help him, what do you think of this if Bonnie accidentally calls Clem Dee when she was shot and if you cover him she wants to go and accidentally tells Mike, "Leland, I need you."?
Completely agree. I just felt so hurt and betrayed when it happened. It was so well done.
Actually, if it comes out of nowhere and goes completely against pre-established characterization, that's pretty much the definition of "out of character". What matters at that point is whether or not it can be justified beyond, "well, sometimes people do crazy stuff..." Otherwise, during season 3 Clementine can suddenly get an evil grin and slaughter someone who threatens her life and laugh about it and then go back to normal and we would just have to accept that, "well, we didn't know whether or not Clementine had an evil side to her... or something..."
Something like Ben betraying the group was a shock, but it made sense given how little we knew about him other than that he was a bit cowardly, and that he had a connection to the bandits harassing the group. Mike and Bonnie had been nothing but helpful and protective of the baby up until then, but suddenly were willing to take off in the night and apparently leave Clem and AJ behind as well.
Omg I love it, it's the best one I've ever seen.
But at the same time, Mike agrees to leave Clem and Jane without any of their supplies? They're leaving a little girl and the woman that saved the group to die.
Yeah, I think it was very well written and shocking. Now that we can look back at it, it seems very obvious they weren't to be trusted as deeply as we could trust Kenny (for some people not everyone) and Luke and in general the cabin group.
I never liked Bonnie, and Mike is still a okay guy to me. Arvo will get a bullet from me next time we meet. And Bonnie too, depending on how pissed off I still am about Luke's death, Oh, A LOT.
Yeah, I don't think it was lazy writing at all. They were simply showing their true colors, and a lot of people were shocked by this.
If we talk about lazy writing, I say SEASON 2 EP. 4 was the best contender for this award.
Mike and Bonnie wanting to leave wasn't out of character. Mike deciding to steal the supplies, steal Kenny's truck, and leave Clem behind after she is shot is out of character. Bonnie going along with Mike was in character. She was a weak follower who couldn't be trusted because she says one thing but goes with the flow.
The whole reason Mike was leaving was because he didn't like how Kenny was treating people. So he takes the high road by becoming a thief and leaving Clem, Jane, Kenny, and AJ to die? If Mike was taking the high road, he would have said, "Let's split the supplies. Kenny, you're dangerous and you aren't coming with me. Everyone pick who want to go with. Kenny fixed the truck, so it's his. He gets to keep it."
The idea of the betrayal was good but the execution wasn't quite there. Mike carried heavy water jugs to help deliver AJ, then leaves AJ behind to die? There needed to be a bit more development to explain that Mike is really a bad person who was just pretending, waiting for his moment to steal the supplies and leave people to die. But if he's really so bad, why would he take Arvo with him? That's kind of where it falls apart. How can Mike be a good guy who is trying to save Arvo at the expense of Clem and AJ? Or how can he be a bad guy that is taking Arvo? And why does Mike feel this is the only way, rather than just having a discussion to dissolve the group?
It wasn't lazy writing. It was just bad. In my playthrough, Bonnie and Mike were reasonable people concerned about Clementine's well being up until 5 minutes before their escape, especially Bonnie, would told Clem she needed to start thinking about what she wants. The escape itself was an okay-ish twist and you could understand why they wanted to leave, but it wasn't that well written and felt incredibly forced and out of character (seriously, how could they leave Clementine and the baby without ANY food? And don't say that "good people do bad things sometimes". Taking the truck is debatable since they were afraid that Kenny and Jane might go after them, but taking all the food and leave Clem bleeding to death is way out of character and is not a bad thing, it's plain evil.)
This exactly. If Bonnie and Mike had tried to get Clem and AJ to come with them, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But after Luke dies, Bonnie is just... weird, she's not the same character, even more so if you don't help Luke. If you don't, once Clem's been shot, she even says "Lets just leave her!", Bonnie would've never left Clem for dead, after how bad she felt over the Carver situation, there's just nothing you can tell me to convince me she wasn't anything but out of character the entire time after Luke dies. And the really random hinting that Bonnie and Luke had something was just so out of no where and contrived that didn't help anything either.
I'm pretty pissed at how Mike just went completely out of character. He seemed like a reasonable and good guy in episodes 3-4 but then in episode 5 he's like, "omg arvo, u lost ur sistur ;(((" and completely forgets that Arvo had screwed them over several times. Plus you could originally SHOOT him. Who the fuck would do that? After he saved your life last episode (determinately) and was the voice of reason to Kenny in his time of darkness.
Then Bonnie, I mean, she was obviously not a bad person, she just made bad choices and she tried to befriend Clementine. But now, she chooses to leave her alone with two psychos (Jane was fucking nuts) and a baby. Right.
And then Arvo, even if you didn't take the supplies from him, still fucking shoots you! What?! I'd understand that if you could kill Mike, that makes sense, but you can't in the final game and he shoots you even if you give Mike the gun and don't steal from him. I dunno.
And then if you cover Luke, Mike is concerned for your safety after you get shot. But if you try to save Luke Bonnie is concerned and Mike wants to leave. Why? What reason would Mike have for wanting to leave? It would have been much better if both Mike and Bonnie were crying over Clementine and then Kenny came out. Or if this scene didn't happen at all.
Rant over.
You can't talk about characters being consistent. Clementine knew them for like 3-4 days. They just showed their true colors.
There wasn't any established characterization, because Clem knew Mike and Bonnie for like 3-4 days, so no. They just showed their true colors.
That's great.
That's not at all how characterization works. The writing is what determines to the audience who a character is, not how much time the main character has spent with said character. Clementine didn't need to know Carver for any more than the ten minutes he was in the cabin for us to determine that his character was mysterious, looking for your new companions, was intelligent and calculating, and held a threatening air to him. Characters can change over time, yes, but again, the writing does that. For example, after all the horrible things he did in episode 2, if Carver jumped into danger to save Clementine from a walker in episode 3, that would then contribute something more to his characterization for the audience to notice, even if his reasons for doing so are not made clear to Clementine herself. Little things like that are what make a character; we don't need a main character to tell us everything we need to know about another character.
However, when characters change to suit the writing, rather than the other way around, we get what we got in No Going Back. Also, they clearly didn't "show their true colors", because both of them (determinant for Bonnie) still show that they care about Clementine by reacting in horror when she's shot. That would be fine, except that it doesn't match with the fact that they were planning to leave her with no supplies which would have doomed her anyway. This is what happens when characterization doesn't work or is contradictory; the characters are now all over the map because their behaviors are so inconsistent to serve the writing which needed to get them out of the story in a clumsy way.
I don't think it was bad writing personally. It was subtle, but the tension between Mike and Kenny was there. Right after Kenny attacks Arvo in the cabin, Mike even says he can't put up with this. I'm not surprised by Bonnie at all. She's been flip flopping all season and she's easily persuaded.
At first I thought it was a clever, shocking, twist.
My gripe is that it falls apart when you realise they found beating up the guy who got two of their group killed too far, but they were perfectly willing to let a nine year old and a baby die in the cold instead.
So yeah, it does kind of feel like their personalities took a hit just to force it on us.
Yeah, that part made no sense to me either. They spend all episode overly concerned with Arvo cuz he was a kid, but then they go and steal all the supplies and only working car and effectively leave 2 kids, both younger then Arvo, to die? Like, I dont understand what would make them prioritize Arvo over Clem and AJ?
Well, in Nick and Sarahs case I think it was less about "shock value" and more that they had to kill them since they were "Determined" and keeping up both versions of the story would be too much of a strain.
Bonnie betrayed us in episode 2, betrayed Carver in episode 4, and betrayed us again in episode 5. Bonnie betraying us is perfectly in character.
Very true, it isn't that they had to be written out that irritates me, it's the careless way it was done ;/ In Season 1 Doug and Carley got lots of good dialogue despite determinant. Ben was an important part of the story if you didn't drop him from the bell tower. In S2 Pete even though not the longest determinant character got a very good scene with Clem and saved her, Alvin too. It just seemed odd to have Nick and Sarah build a relationship with Clem only to make them determinant, drop their character arcs and dialogue and kill Nick offscreen, kill Sarah in the same ep we save her in
I never trusted Bonnie so her trying to leave and not thinking about Clem and AJ didn't really surprise me. Plus she's a junkie, they are incredibly selfish.
What I am curious about though with Bonnie is if anyone noticed her statements about "having been with a lot of men" and "thinking that there ahd to be a different way". I thought the real reason she wanted to leave wasn't because she was jealous of the Luke/Jane thing because she had the hots for Luke but rather that she had the hots for Jane and couldn't stand to be around her.
Not sure on the Jane thing, but she did try to jump ship after Luke went, so...
Yeah, the Sarah thing seemed super harsh. I think that death is even worse then then just leaving her. Cuz if she comes with you then it means she decided that she wanted to live, that she fought through her issues and that there was hope for her. But then nope! She dies.
But the her character in Episode 3 and 4 is trying to redeem herself for backstabbing them, how is that in character?
Exactly. What happened with Bonnie was a super rude shock. But I believed it was a case of Clem being taken for granted. Clem has been, and was expected to risk limb and life to save the day and for everyone in the group despite being an eleven year old. The moment she refuses to do that or fails to save the day as usual, she's suddenly as useful as that dirt on your shoe. That really pisses me off. Plus Bonnie and Mike didn't even hesitate to leave with all the supplies, which is an effective death sentence to Jane, Kenny, Clem and AJ.
At that point I don't really understand why there's no option to shoot or even keep the gun as you wind up giving up the gun. Seeing the way Bonnie and Mike behaved, it just makes ZERO sense.
I'll say it again - Sarah should have been able to have been saved when the deck collapsed by Jane.... then die in the shootout. THAT would have been a better death. Especially if you got to talk to her one more time like you did with Pete.
I didn't know Bonnie could live...
Actually it doesnt go against BONNIE'S character. Her character IS to make stupid decisions and put Clem and others she's with at risk. She did so with the last group she was with too (and wound up killing that woman). Then she sided with Carver even when the new group was nice to her. Then put Clem at risk with the zombie in the museum. Then tries to put Clem at risk on the ice. It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk. Mike's a bit more of a shock though I somehow think he was just a follower and it was Bonnie's idea (probably also Bonnie's idea to steal all the supplies).
Mike strikes me as a real 'follower' mentality, and I'm pretty sure he would have taken Clem with him if that little punk Arvo didnt shoot Clem (at which point Mike had to flee because he knew he would get killed by Jane AND Kenny for what Arvo did).