heart vs mind
in all of this kenny vs jane threads i miss a little the distinction between going with one or the other because
you like/hate them or because it seems like the best thing for you. (and the baby)
so lets separate heart from mind and see if there are at least some points people from different teams can agree on. so let me get the ball rolling by throwing some statements out there.
kenny's character
kenny is not a bad person,
he seems to desperately need a purpose. something he can obsess over (possible to distract him from the devastating endings of his last obsessions)
as sarita's "when i first met him he could not lift a fly" and the way he immediately pulls himself together when he feels responsible for the baby, might suggest.
to his credit he seems to want to chooses commendable obsessions.
but as expected with obsession you just do not get him of his course even if it becomes increasingly clear he might be going the wrong way.
he rather goes though with a bad plan or ignores possible repercussions then to do nothing or make a step back.
jane's character
jane is not a bad person.
she seems at first to be defined by her code of survival, which seems to many quiet cruel.
but then she just ignores this code to help others first and foremost clementine.
i often read she reminds her of her sister.
so she might feel guilty for abandoning her and does not want to do it again.
that might be true but since her sister was described as very different from clementine, one should consider that clementine possibly reminds her of herself as well, since it seems she wants her to learn from her experiences and to prevent her to make the same mistakes.
jane's code of survival might be her shield, giving her on one side a way to suppress her guild and on the other keeping her from becoming to attached.
that seems to be a real problem for her as quickly as she dedicates her life to clementine, gets close to luke and tries to avoid the baby.
kenny's pov
kenny's concerns regarding jane seem legit.
he never got to know her like clementine did. she keept her facade up when he was near by.
beside that, kenny was in pursuit of "his noble goal" ether to oblivious (or maybe even to simple) to notice everything going on around him.
after you get shot, in the car when jane states "that everyone is afraid of him." he declared it to be "just aint true".
(before the conversation went towards serita and his family)
the basic idea that people act like that to him because they think "he is like a bomb about to explode" somehow eluded him. mike seemed to have betrayed them for no operand reason.
so it does not seem to far fetched jane could do worse.
jane's pov
similar to kenny, jane does not know him as well as clementine.
she only knows him a few days (his worst days) and seems to have had bad experiences with people like him.
and seeing as he seemed to get worse by the minute, taking drastic measures is not that absurd.
people often criticize her for poking kenny's open wound but did not seemed to notice he poked her's as well.
"nobody cares about you and you care about nobody." does not seem like such bad thing to say, if you believe she
is the ruthless survivor kenny thinks she is.
the idea the escalation in the car being part of her plan, that some people here seemed to have, seems unrealistic. she tried to say she is sorry before he jumps out of the car. if she where this master manipulator, some claim she is, she would clearly come up with a better plan.
it is more likely she had legit concern for clementine's safety after loosing it with kenny (igniting the bomb) and that with a good reason.
the point she wanted to relay to you was never "kenny wants to kill you" but "kenny is getting you killed." which seemed to be proven to her after clem got shot.
clementine's pov
as telltale always tends to steer the story in the same way whatever we say and do one might underestimate what impacts ones decisions have.
depending on your dialogue choice "stop it kenny. just stop." is all that is needed to stop him from beating arvo or it looks like he might have beaten him to death if mike had not intervened.
as i played through the game siding with jane all the time i had reasonable fear for clem when kenny noticed she did not had the baby with her. if my clem was the one coming back telling him she lost the baby this would have clearly ended badly.
what is best for alvin?
where would the baby be best cared for?
i dare to say it would be obviously wellington. (assuming it is what is promised to be?)
but could this really be foreseen at the time you where holding the gun?
jane brought up good points when she said just "going north" is not a good plan. you can not know if wellington is actually out there and if it can be reached in time. as far as you know, wellington is just a story survivors tell one another to keep up hope.
the second best option might be a group.
kenny seems by now to be poison for a group and jane does not want to be in one, or does she?
despite what she said she was a permanent asset to the group. she left possible just (in no time of need) because she was afraid to become to attached to the baby (fits the timing), who's survival chance is in all objectivity quiet small.
is it really appropriate to slam a "baby killer" stamp on her just because she tries to get her priorities straight?
especially since she guarded the baby after the car crash even though it was well established that clementine was most important to her.
anyway she never really left considering how fast she was there when the shooting with the arvo's group started. and if you do not decide if you want to invite the family in (howe's) she lets them in.
to get back to kenny.
kenny nr. 1 priority seems to be aj.
it was wise for mike and co. not to take the baby with them. (even though their entire plan was stupid) he would have went all carver on them.
does that mean he is actually the most qualified to take care of a baby?
he is a wreck. how long until he (unwillingly) causes a catastrophe? what when the next wellington does not exist?
it is a complete mystery to me when people write they let jane die because of the baby and then deny him the chance to grow up in a save environment, to follow a man who himself admits, does not trust himself with clem and the baby.
what is left? a young girl and a baby vs. the zombi apocalypse. as interesting as it sounds you endangering the child's live!
you may leave kenny because you do not believe in santa claus ... i mean wellington. but to just turn away the help of an experienced survivor covering your back does not seem like, doing the best for the baby.
what is best for clem?
lets forget santa claus for a moment and focus on the people.
again, kenny's nr. 1 priority is aj.
depending on your clementine he is a direct or indirect danger to her.
say what you will about jane, while she was busy pulling clem out of the ice cold water and bewaring her from freezing to death, he was just standing around or beating arvo and ignoring clem's plea for help.
jane is very grounded in reality and foretold pretty much every danger they faced.
she literally taught clementine more in 10 minutes then lee in what seems like an eternity they spend together.
what is best for kenny?
whatever ending you choose he admits siding against him was the right choice, he does not trust himself with you and the child, or he wanted to die.
the truly cruelest ending for him might be beside leaving him after the brutal murder of jane, so he can slowly come to realize what he had done, to pass on wellington so he can go though something similar again, while knowing you could have had a better live there.
my personal stance
as you might guess by the personal opinions that flooded in half though the post i am in love with jane, as strange as it may sound, ever since she shot that guy's dick off. i just thought, finally a character that is not totally naive. and i was not disappointed.
honestly going with jane just seems to me like the objectively far better decision.
but on my second playthrough as saint clementine, the naive little girl, when i looked away and let jane get murdered, i just could not resist shooting kenny on the spot. so i guess i can never see this completely objectively.
what did i overlook? why kenny? why not jane?
Comments
apparently reading much is a perfect repellent for the KENNNYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 (fuck jane) -fans.
to bad it repels everyone else as well.
Well written post,I agree with almost every point,except about "She don't care about anybody,and nobody care about her" I mean obviously Luke will grow a feeling to her after they "had a fun time" and how much he mad when Jane left the group is a prove that Luke care about Jane,Clementine can choose to be more care about her too,and Jane obviously care about her.
Same here . As much i loved kenny , he went way to far by klling her . I think most of the people (even those who reloaded their playthrough after they saw the ending with kenny on youtube or dunno and call jane a c*nt ) shot in the frist place because they knew , what he was doing there was just wrong .
Yeap,Kenny just straight off wanted to murder Jane,any sane person with common sense will put a stop to it.
that makes it an open wound, does it not?
after spending forever alone she finally connects. one or depending on clementine the only person that likes her immediately dies and the other groupmembers just leave her behind with a madman.
that was the point i wanted to bring over.
seeing the ending with kenny alive and the emotion in his voice and the sincerity kinda made up for the bullshit he pulled well in
my 2 cents
my book i forgave him
vice versa i gotta say jane was in that frame of mind to she was ready to end it aswell
That's not her intent to cause a blood shed really,Kenny escalated the situation when she just wanted to talk about it,she even told him to back off a few times but Kenny wouldn't listen to it,and that's an overwhelming prove that he already lost his mind.
but she was certainly prepared to kill kenny if it was necessary. (from the beginning)
And it was indeed necessary,seeing how Kenny immediately acting all aggressive like a feral beast.
agreed.
Dont forget jane lied to and she knew the outcome of the whole scenario by lieing she said so to clem
why would you rock the boat in the first place she was at fault which is a shame because they could have been a good team!
Yes , she lied . No , thats no reason to kill her . She defendet herself against kenny , but she never wanted the fight or him ending dead .
put it this way if you lie reap what you sow but correct no one should have died but honestly it was one or the other!
true , one or the other . thats where the heart or mind decides.
your on the money dude
why do so many people forgive kenny so easily and jane not at all?
kenny is a repeat offender and every time he learns nothing from it.
jane did nothing condemnable at all up to this point and she only did it for clementine.
i dont condone what kenny done but came to terms with he made amends at the end i chose to forgive but not forget
Okay, so originally I wrote this as a reply to DIEFIESEDEMO's comment about Jane not wanting a fight even though she lied, but it got so long I think I should just make a separate comment. :P So the first part here is directed at him, but the rest is pretty much my thoughts on the situation.
I'm sorry, but that was clearly what she wanted. I don't buy her story of "I just wanted to show you what he is really like" - it did not have to escalate that far and she knew it. At any point she could have come clean and said "AJ is safe, he is not dead" and ended it, but she was clearly looking for a fight. She just happened to end up on the bad side of a fight that she instigated - this is something that really irked me with the endings. The game keeps pitching you against Kenny, it was not a 50/50 "leave with Jane or Kenny" decision, they set up that final, big choice in a way that is clearly skewed in the favor of saving Jane; because she looked so helpless and in trouble, we forget that she picked the fight in the first place and our first instinct is to shoot Kenny to save her, even though during the fight, she got a few good hits in and practically gutted Kenny with her knife. She is not some naive little girl, Jane is a ruthless survivor, and, as what the Jane endings have proven to me, a real manipulative person too, and after what she did I cannot trust her.
If I had shot Kenny in my first playthrough (which, I admit, is the morally right thing to do in that situation), I still would not have stayed with her. I can feel that she cares a lot about Clem, but it's still unclear to me how much she would risk for someone other than herself. She repeatedly tells us of all the groups she's left, how she willingly ditched so many people to save herself - who's to say she won't do that with Clem and AJ? How long will it be until AJ becomes a liability for her? Keep in mind she stayed for Clem, she still has no emotional attachment to AJ. I loved the scene where she holds the baby and was like "I think it needs food" and later, "I think it's going to puke", but amusing and cute that was, a person that refers to a baby as "it" and keeps avoiding holding the baby isn't exactly the kind of person I see raising a kid with an 11 year old.
I liked Jane a lot in the last two episodes, but that little stunt she pulled was seriously not cool, and I can't dismiss it as a scared little girl trying to prove to her friend how unstable Kenny is. She knew exactly what she was doing, and Kenny definitely did not need that final straw.
// That ends the response to the comment I mentioned, and in response to the OP:
First of all, I think this is a really great analysis, you hit the head on the nail for most of the things and this was pretty objective for the most part. I agree that they are both not bad people - like Bonnie said, "good people do bad things, especially in these times". I ultimately chose to leave with Kenny, and that is definitely a choice I made based on my emotions. Staying at Wellington seems like the most sensible option in a lot of ways, but what I've mainly learned with TWD game is that strangers are almost always dangerous. What if Wellington isn't all it's cracked up to be? Tavia seemed real nice when she was recruiting the 400 Days characters for Carver's camp, too, and look how that ended. Story-wise, it's unlikely Wellington will be like that, since this is a game and it would be boring and predictable if Telltale made two camps exactly alike, but realistically, I don't think I would trust Wellington.
And I've already stated my opinions on Jane - she's one heck of a survivalist, I'll give her that, and I know she likes Clem, I just don't know how much. I'm sure she really liked her sister, too, but when her being a liability became too much for her to handle, she did leave her behind. I understand her circumstances and why she did it at the time, but the point still stands that if she considers someone in her way, she will leave them behind. She does seem to have it together better than Kenny, which is another point in her favor - I loved the Kenny ending, and he seemed totally normal there, but in the back of my mind I know that he is still a very unstable man, and he could "relapse" if things don't go his way, like he always does. Like you said, what if something happens to AJ on Clem's watch?
A comment about that, though - when Wellington told us they weren't accepting new people, that seemed like a perfect moment for Kenny to fly off the handle, but he didn't, so maybe he's alright now? We'll have to see in the next season, I guess, but that was an act of selflessness I hadn't seen in a long time in this game.
And on the other endings - like I said, I don't like being with Jane after what she did, and to me her endings were all kind of "meh" and lose/lose. Letting in more strangers does not seem like a good idea, turning them away also seems like an even worse idea, because now they have a grudge against you. They have a seemingly empty fortress now, but if Jane and Clem can find a way in, I don't see how other people can't, and unlike the way Carver was running things, they don't have guards at every post now, so it doesn't seem very safe.
Alone with AJ honestly does not seem that bad to me. Yes, Clem is 11 and now she has a baby with her, but aside from lacking a little physical strength, she seems perfectly capable of surviving on her own. She's done it a few times before, in between the times she had Lee, Omid and Christa, and Luke's group. In fact, she seems like a far better survivor than anyone that was in Luke's group (not counting Jane), but I don't know if that was just poor writing and choices on Telltale's part, since they had to make Clem the protagonist, and by extension, they had to make her do most of the work, but the end result just made Luke's group seem like a really incompetent bunch of idiots that can't do anything without an 11 year old's help.
So yeah, that was a really long ramble I don't expect anyone to fully read, but there's my 2 cents. c:
Totally you wrote what i think top notch mate
jane clearly thought a fight might be necessary.
wanting to show clementine what he really is and being prepared to kill him are not exclusive. it had to escalate that far depending on your clementine.
do you actually think kenny would have stopped in the end if she would say he is alive? he would not have believed her. he thinks the worst of her as is proven by his she is just a disturbed person who thinks just of herself - comment, completely ignoring all she has done up to this point.
this fight was inedible. she thought there is no way to defuse this bomb. so she let it explode in a moment where she is more likely to handle the blast.
ever thought of the possibility that jane would rather die then let clem stay with a madman she think will be her death?
jane stayed with clementine in very bad times and has proven not to give up on her as long as there is a chance to actually save her, whatever the risk for herself. of course there is the change she would leave her when there is actually nothing she can do to save her. (not like you said because someone is in her way) but at least unlike kenny she would not let clem die, ignoring her pleas for help, because she is busy beating a poor kid.
the baby is a whole other story. she is very likely just afraid to get to attached to the baby fully knowing that it has barely any chance to survive. being aware of that she may protect the baby but not at the cost of clementines live.
kenny on the other hand has made this baby his sole purpose in live and seems not to care in the heat of the moment if clementine gets in the crossfire.
to me jane's ending with the group is the only ending that did not left a bitter taste. yes, i had killed an old friend. but i felt like i had done him a favor. i felt rather save with jane and, thanks to thinking the family might be more dangerous when i don't let them in, not at all selfish.
not trusting wellington seems like a legit point to me. but they also might just wanted to get rid of a likely unstable man and let the likely not dangerous children in.