Well due to the amount of Kenny vs Jane threads and the fact that people are really invested in the entire conflict, I think Telltale somewhat succeeded.
Did they really plan from the start to mislead us with the Luke vs Kenny debate, only to then switch things around with the final conflict b… moreeing Jane vs Kenny?
If so, it wasn't executed very well. The effect of the twist is ruined by the fact that there was far more foreshadowing regarding the rivalry between the two men than there was for Kenny's relationship with Jane. They hardly even interacted in Episodes 3 and 4.
If Telltale really was smart, they should have just stuck with Luke vs Nick. Have a growing relationship that's been established from EPISODE 1, rather than pitting two characters who only appear halfway through the season.
I actually thought Luke's was pretty well done.
Sarah and Nick, however...those were shit. Carlos was also pretty bad considering only Sarah reacted to the loss of a doctor and leader.
Not to sound weird, but I'm actually satisfied with Luke's death, he actually died to save Clementine, which really shows a lot about the character. Plus it was helluva lot better than other deaths this season. (Cough* Nick..Cough Sarah...)
I thought that the death itself was great. I went to save Luke, so he gave his life to save Clem in my game by dragging the walker away from her which caused it to grab him and pull him down. It was nice to see that, even though he died, he at least went out in a heroic fashion (At least if you take that path). However, I do believe that as good as his death scene was that he should have survived the Season. Seriously.
I agree, I think it'd be a lot more interesting if he survived as well, Only issue I see with that is...when Bonnie, Mike and Arvo are stealing supplies, Something tells me Bonnie wouldn't exactly want to leave Luke behind. (Which means he would probably be leaving with them, in turn causing problems for the truck scene.)
I thought that the death itself was great. I went to save Luke, so he gave his life to save Clem in my game by dragging the walker away from… more her which caused it to grab him and pull him down. It was nice to see that, even though he died, he at least went out in a heroic fashion (At least if you take that path). However, I do believe that as good as his death scene was that he should have survived the Season. Seriously.
Not to sound weird, but I'm actually satisfied with Luke's death, he actually died to save Clementine, which really shows a lot about the character. Plus it was helluva lot better than other deaths this season. (Cough* Nick..Cough Sarah...)
I thought it was lame. The only shock value that came out of it was that he died so early in the episode and in such an uneventful way. They set Luke up to be important enough that I think most people assumed his death would be towards the end and dramatic the way Kenny/Jane's was. It wasn't as if anybody would be surprised if Luke died, since this is TWD, it's just that he had to go like that.
I think it was a terrible choice. I would have preferred if he was there until the end and the Kenny and Jane thing played out the same way with going with Luke being another option. Though I think at that point, the choice might have been too easy for a lot of players.
I think they planned for it to always be Kenny Vs Jane and the majority of the forum believed it to be Kenny Vs Luke the entire time. They could have switched it last minute to Kenny Vs Jane but the way they were building it up looked like it was going to be Kenny Vs Luke (ie. who do you sit with AND act 3 of episode 4).
I'm just saying I hope TT's plan was to have it be Kenny Vs Jane all along and they didn't switch it last minute due to our reactions. To be fair, Kenny and Luke were kind of warming up to each other in the last episode (Kenny was angry and blamed Arvo when Luke died). And Jane really does seem like the more likelier candidate to go up against Kenny (it just made sense). If Luke was there, I think he'd be helping Clem stop the fight.
I agree with you that he fight was not executed well (as fore mentioned, there was more fights between Kenny and Luke that could have built up to something) but even with Luke gone, Kenny and Jane's fight still makes sense and could have just been a shock for the final episode.
Did they really plan from the start to mislead us with the Luke vs Kenny debate, only to then switch things around with the final conflict b… moreeing Jane vs Kenny?
If so, it wasn't executed very well. The effect of the twist is ruined by the fact that there was far more foreshadowing regarding the rivalry between the two men than there was for Kenny's relationship with Jane. They hardly even interacted in Episodes 3 and 4.
If Telltale really was smart, they should have just stuck with Luke vs Nick. Have a growing relationship that's been established from EPISODE 1, rather than pitting two characters who only appear halfway through the season.
exactly my sentiments. Especially Luke's death being kind of pointless. This is what happens when you kill for killing's sake and when "killing off every character" becomes sort of the main goal of your script irrespective of other considerations. When that happens, then it just becomes like shooting fish in barrel - kill, check off. Kill, check off. Kill, check off.
I was pretty devastated by it, as he was my favorite non-Clem character of the season, hands down. After the initial shock and emotional pun… morech in the gut wore off, I got pretty pissed. It just felt like it made all the build-up with Luke's character seem pointless, and for what? A pretty cheap, 'gotcha' device? It certainly didn't make me go, wow, I'm so affected by how cruel and unrelenting death is in this world, it made me go WTF that they made the final decision a conflict they threw together in one episode over one with actual development throughout the season. If Luke was going to die he should've at least been part of the final choice, and I don't see any good reason he needed to die anyway, seeing that a character like Kenny got a whole other season when he already had far more development than Luke just from his first one.
I was also irritated over the lack of time devoted to his death. I honestly couldn't focus for a while after … [view original content]
yeah lazy is a good way of putting it. It was so lame. It's almost like the writers just wanted to get it over with, so they chose this last ditch effort before they can move on with the rest of the story.
Another cheap death just like every single death that happened in this season.
You know there's something WRONG going on at Telltale if even Gavin says this.
Disagree totally. I was really happy they twisted things on the whole 'pizza vs. icecream' crowd - plus I don't think it was that sudden, especially if you decided to cover Luke. Then you get to run over and frantically bang on the ice. I knew it was up, but I still did it anyway because it was a visceral reaction. Death, even of a major character, can be completely sudden, and I thought it was emotional and didn't feel contrived. Plus it served as a catalyst for the moral ambiguity surrounding Kenny's treatment of Arvo.
Another cheap death just like every single death that happened in this season.
You know there's something WRONG going on at Telltale if even Gavin says this.
And with this I "agree totally". I thought it was very well done. I knew someone wasn't making it over the ice. And I didn't feel it was an unmarked death like Sarah's with no mourning or comment. I felt like me running over to the ice was my grieving. There wasn't anything I could realistically do but I wasn't ready to accept his being gone. I didn't hit the ice enough to break it. I saw in his eyes he was dead...so I stopped. Also, I'm glad I didn't because I hated Bonnie and my way she died. OVERALL I think it was a very well played and emotional death scene.
I get everyone liked the character. But that's the ZA and TTG for you. No one is safe. I loved the last episode. I really enjoyed season 2 as a whole.
Disagree totally. I was really happy they twisted things on the whole 'pizza vs. icecream' crowd - plus I don't think it was that sudden, es… morepecially if you decided to cover Luke. Then you get to run over and frantically bang on the ice. I knew it was up, but I still did it anyway because it was a visceral reaction. Death, even of a major character, can be completely sudden, and I thought it was emotional and didn't feel contrived. Plus it served as a catalyst for the moral ambiguity surrounding Kenny's treatment of Arvo.
I agree with this, it felt like he never really mattered, like they thought now that Lukes out of the way lets have more Kenny and Jane it felt so weird because after being built up so much they just kill him off and we never really get the chance to mourn him or cry over him which isn't good Telltale! c;
I didn't like Luke all that much and I was waiting for an episode which would show me that Luke is more than just Luke. But he didn't get it and i'm really disappointed that telltale didn't do more with him as his death was for "shock value".
Looking back at how it happened, it almost seems like the writers realized a little bit late in the game that "oh wait, we haven't killed him yet" and decided sort of half-assed to give him this lame death to just get it out of the way. This is exactly what happens when you kill characters off for the sake of killing them off.
Agreed, we need more long lasting characters. Invulnerable plot armor isnt allways a good thing, but its making us care less about a game if people just die every couple episodes. We love Lee since he was a main character for so long, same with Clem, and Kenny, but who's going to care about the cabin crew? I forgot most of them allready unfortunately. "Just that second group"
I suppose they got how the final episode would go and needed to get rid of everyone somehow except the ones in the final be it Clem, Luke & Kenny or Clem, Jane & Kenny. But yes I don't feel like I connected with this group much apart from characters who were close to Clem like Luke and possibly Sarah. Sarah had great potential and Luke was wasted. It was like a massacre, and it would have been nice if part of the group other than just AJ Kenny/Jane survive and are in Season 3. It's like they're purposely killing everyone Clem gets close to in order to make her isolate herself and turn her into Jane 2.0, which I do not want for my Clementine.
Agreed, we need more long lasting characters. Invulnerable plot armor isnt allways a good thing, but its making us care less about a game if… more people just die every couple episodes. We love Lee since he was a main character for so long, same with Clem, and Kenny, but who's going to care about the cabin crew? I forgot most of them allready unfortunately. "Just that second group"
Agreed, we need more long lasting characters. Invulnerable plot armor isnt allways a good thing, but its making us care less about a game if… more people just die every couple episodes. We love Lee since he was a main character for so long, same with Clem, and Kenny, but who's going to care about the cabin crew? I forgot most of them allready unfortunately. "Just that second group"
they were unforgettable alright. I totally even forgot wht the name of the guy was with the baseball hat. Nick? And also that little girl - Carlos's daughter. OMG...I forgot how she died or what her name was.
The thing is, while it is realistic that not everyone will survive the ZA, making people die every episode as sort of your main goal is disheartening and just makes you view characters as these tools you get to use during the game and woh then can be disposed off once you are done. Anyway I wish they had kept Lee alive. That was their worst mistake. This should have been Lee's and Clem's journey. The two friends. Like Rick in the show. Killing him off was a bad call and just kept getting followed by bad calls culminating in this episode where again everyone's gone. I mean really, none of the people in the cabin survived and then Luke got this lame ending which no one gave a shit about afterwards....like yawwn...oh yeah Luke died, too bad.
Another cheap death just like every single death that happened in this season.
You know there's something WRONG going on at Telltale if even Gavin says this.
I agree, I think it'd be a lot more interesting if he survived as well, Only issue I see with that is...when Bonnie, Mike and Arvo are steal… moreing supplies, Something tells me Bonnie wouldn't exactly want to leave Luke behind. (Which means he would probably be leaving with them, in turn causing problems for the truck scene.)
Character arcs ended prematurely, and felt more event-driven than character-driven.
good point and a well put perspective on the season as a whole, i think the faster pace and the lack of hubs/optional conversations added to making the game more event driven than character driven
As OP put it, trying to break through the ice to save someone was an interesting scenario in itself, but I think it was an abrupt ending for… more Luke after all of his build-up. Of course, that's been my issue with most of the cabin group deaths. Character arcs ended prematurely, and felt more event-driven than character-driven.
It was poorly done like nearly every character death this season. More time is spent in game on reminiscing about characters from Season 1 who died (Lee, Duck, Katjaa) than characters from this season. In Season 2 when characters die hardly anyone reacts to it and they move on. Clem falling into the ice is a big example of that. Everyone is understandably freaked out about Clem potentially getting hypothermic, but they all mostly act as if they've forgotten that Luke just drowned. The same was true with Sarah's death.
Compare that to the aftermath of Carley (or Doug), Duck, and Katjaa dying in Season 1. The deaths for Season 2 have been mostly lacking for emotional impact.
Exactly. And why the hell start the season off like they did if he wasn't even going to be a choice in the end??? Luke was my favorite non-playable character of both seasons. He should have made it to S3, or at least the freaking end of this one
I was pretty devastated by it, as he was my favorite non-Clem character of the season, hands down. After the initial shock and emotional pun… morech in the gut wore off, I got pretty pissed. It just felt like it made all the build-up with Luke's character seem pointless, and for what? A pretty cheap, 'gotcha' device? It certainly didn't make me go, wow, I'm so affected by how cruel and unrelenting death is in this world, it made me go WTF that they made the final decision a conflict they threw together in one episode over one with actual development throughout the season. If Luke was going to die he should've at least been part of the final choice, and I don't see any good reason he needed to die anyway, seeing that a character like Kenny got a whole other season when he already had far more development than Luke just from his first one.
I was also irritated over the lack of time devoted to his death. I honestly couldn't focus for a while after … [view original content]
If you think about it, the reason Clem/the group wasn't that broken up about it was because while WE (not the characters) have known Luke for nearly a year, only about a week and a half has passed in-game. So Luke and the everyone else (besides Kenny) are just one of the many people who have come and go in Clem's post-apocalyptic life.
Final episode of season 1, I felt so damn empty and depressed. Even if you minused Lee's death, it would still be really sad. When Luke died I was like "Uhhh, ok... that was sad I guess..." I don't know I just didn't really process it.
you don't always have time to mourn. When Sarah died (second time), the group is worried about keeping Rebecca safe to deliver the baby. Carlos, they're to keep the herd from attacking them. Same with Luke, Clem (and Bonnie) were at risk of hypothermia. You have to go on for the living. Maybe they should have shown more grieving but some circumstances did not allow for it. I agree about Nick though, if he survived 202, they don't seem to mourn him at all.
It was poorly done like nearly every character death this season. More time is spent in game on reminiscing about characters from Season 1 w… moreho died (Lee, Duck, Katjaa) than characters from this season. In Season 2 when characters die hardly anyone reacts to it and they move on. Clem falling into the ice is a big example of that. Everyone is understandably freaked out about Clem potentially getting hypothermic, but they all mostly act as if they've forgotten that Luke just drowned. The same was true with Sarah's death.
Compare that to the aftermath of Carley (or Doug), Duck, and Katjaa dying in Season 1. The deaths for Season 2 have been mostly lacking for emotional impact.
It was easy to realize someone was going to die on that ice. That campfire moment was too precious not to think something bad was going to happen. It may not have ended in this "ice cream vs. pizza thing" mentioned so many times, but Kenny won that. It sucked though.
I gotta say, I don't understand why TTG made Kenny determinate?
It doesn't make any sense.
Kenny, would be the perfect candidate for a long-term character.
And as far as them crossing the frozen lake, that is completely stupid.
That is something you NEVER do.
The best thing to do, is find a way around it.
When you're in a survival situation, you DO NOT take needless risks.
also yeah I agree with you, sarah and nick deaths were well done. But if you think about it, sarah specifically. she could've gotten a even worse death if she lived on. Imagine the shoot out, or the lake, or the blizzard?
my baby nick would've lived on, maybe.. he probably wouldve went all out in the shoot out and ended up dying there. but if are choices mattered he would've stayed well hidden bc id tell him so
I actually thought Luke's was pretty well done.
Sarah and Nick, however...those were shit. Carlos was also pretty bad considering only Sarah reacted to the loss of a doctor and leader.
Comments
Well due to the amount of Kenny vs Jane threads and the fact that people are really invested in the entire conflict, I think Telltale somewhat succeeded.
RIP Carlos. After he got shot, he CEASED TO FUNCTION
Not to sound weird, but I'm actually satisfied with Luke's death, he actually died to save Clementine, which really shows a lot about the character. Plus it was helluva lot better than other deaths this season. (Cough* Nick..Cough Sarah...)
I thought that the death itself was great. I went to save Luke, so he gave his life to save Clem in my game by dragging the walker away from her which caused it to grab him and pull him down. It was nice to see that, even though he died, he at least went out in a heroic fashion (At least if you take that path). However, I do believe that as good as his death scene was that he should have survived the Season. Seriously.
I agree, I think it'd be a lot more interesting if he survived as well, Only issue I see with that is...when Bonnie, Mike and Arvo are stealing supplies, Something tells me Bonnie wouldn't exactly want to leave Luke behind. (Which means he would probably be leaving with them, in turn causing problems for the truck scene.)
THIS. Nick's death is the absolute worst, most pathetic, awful, laziest death I have ever seen in fiction.
I thought it was lame. The only shock value that came out of it was that he died so early in the episode and in such an uneventful way. They set Luke up to be important enough that I think most people assumed his death would be towards the end and dramatic the way Kenny/Jane's was. It wasn't as if anybody would be surprised if Luke died, since this is TWD, it's just that he had to go like that.
I think it was a terrible choice. I would have preferred if he was there until the end and the Kenny and Jane thing played out the same way with going with Luke being another option. Though I think at that point, the choice might have been too easy for a lot of players.
I think they planned for it to always be Kenny Vs Jane and the majority of the forum believed it to be Kenny Vs Luke the entire time. They could have switched it last minute to Kenny Vs Jane but the way they were building it up looked like it was going to be Kenny Vs Luke (ie. who do you sit with AND act 3 of episode 4).
I'm just saying I hope TT's plan was to have it be Kenny Vs Jane all along and they didn't switch it last minute due to our reactions. To be fair, Kenny and Luke were kind of warming up to each other in the last episode (Kenny was angry and blamed Arvo when Luke died). And Jane really does seem like the more likelier candidate to go up against Kenny (it just made sense). If Luke was there, I think he'd be helping Clem stop the fight.
I agree with you that he fight was not executed well (as fore mentioned, there was more fights between Kenny and Luke that could have built up to something) but even with Luke gone, Kenny and Jane's fight still makes sense and could have just been a shock for the final episode.
exactly my sentiments. Especially Luke's death being kind of pointless. This is what happens when you kill for killing's sake and when "killing off every character" becomes sort of the main goal of your script irrespective of other considerations. When that happens, then it just becomes like shooting fish in barrel - kill, check off. Kill, check off. Kill, check off.
yeah lazy is a good way of putting it. It was so lame. It's almost like the writers just wanted to get it over with, so they chose this last ditch effort before they can move on with the rest of the story.
you know what else is wrong? telling people that their opinion is the wrong one, and that we aren't "the Clementine Lee remembered"
His death was shocking for me. I still cant believe he died.
Disagree totally. I was really happy they twisted things on the whole 'pizza vs. icecream' crowd - plus I don't think it was that sudden, especially if you decided to cover Luke. Then you get to run over and frantically bang on the ice. I knew it was up, but I still did it anyway because it was a visceral reaction. Death, even of a major character, can be completely sudden, and I thought it was emotional and didn't feel contrived. Plus it served as a catalyst for the moral ambiguity surrounding Kenny's treatment of Arvo.
And with this I "agree totally". I thought it was very well done. I knew someone wasn't making it over the ice. And I didn't feel it was an unmarked death like Sarah's with no mourning or comment. I felt like me running over to the ice was my grieving. There wasn't anything I could realistically do but I wasn't ready to accept his being gone. I didn't hit the ice enough to break it. I saw in his eyes he was dead...so I stopped. Also, I'm glad I didn't because I hated Bonnie and my way she died. OVERALL I think it was a very well played and emotional death scene.
I get everyone liked the character. But that's the ZA and TTG for you. No one is safe. I loved the last episode. I really enjoyed season 2 as a whole.
I agree with this, it felt like he never really mattered, like they thought now that Lukes out of the way lets have more Kenny and Jane it felt so weird because after being built up so much they just kill him off and we never really get the chance to mourn him or cry over him which isn't good Telltale! c;
It sucks because Luke was the only one that didn't piss me off in episode 5.
I didn't like Luke all that much and I was waiting for an episode which would show me that Luke is more than just Luke. But he didn't get it and i'm really disappointed that telltale didn't do more with him as his death was for "shock value".
I was hoping jane or bonnie or SOMEONE would dive in after him. Or clementine would have swam down after him.
He drowned insanely fast, unlike Bonnie, despite the fact that they fell in at the same time.
Looking back at how it happened, it almost seems like the writers realized a little bit late in the game that "oh wait, we haven't killed him yet" and decided sort of half-assed to give him this lame death to just get it out of the way. This is exactly what happens when you kill characters off for the sake of killing them off.
That jokes a real ice-breaker
We just want break the ice.
Agreed, we need more long lasting characters. Invulnerable plot armor isnt allways a good thing, but its making us care less about a game if people just die every couple episodes. We love Lee since he was a main character for so long, same with Clem, and Kenny, but who's going to care about the cabin crew? I forgot most of them allready unfortunately. "Just that second group"
I suppose they got how the final episode would go and needed to get rid of everyone somehow except the ones in the final be it Clem, Luke & Kenny or Clem, Jane & Kenny. But yes I don't feel like I connected with this group much apart from characters who were close to Clem like Luke and possibly Sarah. Sarah had great potential and Luke was wasted. It was like a massacre, and it would have been nice if part of the group other than just AJ Kenny/Jane survive and are in Season 3. It's like they're purposely killing everyone Clem gets close to in order to make her isolate herself and turn her into Jane 2.0, which I do not want for my Clementine.
Most people remember the cabin group, people only forget about Alvin and Carlos
they were unforgettable alright. I totally even forgot wht the name of the guy was with the baseball hat. Nick? And also that little girl - Carlos's daughter. OMG...I forgot how she died or what her name was.
The thing is, while it is realistic that not everyone will survive the ZA, making people die every episode as sort of your main goal is disheartening and just makes you view characters as these tools you get to use during the game and woh then can be disposed off once you are done. Anyway I wish they had kept Lee alive. That was their worst mistake. This should have been Lee's and Clem's journey. The two friends. Like Rick in the show. Killing him off was a bad call and just kept getting followed by bad calls culminating in this episode where again everyone's gone. I mean really, none of the people in the cabin survived and then Luke got this lame ending which no one gave a shit about afterwards....like yawwn...oh yeah Luke died, too bad.
Gavin is the voice of The Truth, in more ways than one.
Have Bonnie fall through the ice instead of Luke. Problem solved.
good point and a well put perspective on the season as a whole, i think the faster pace and the lack of hubs/optional conversations added to making the game more event driven than character driven
It was poorly done like nearly every character death this season. More time is spent in game on reminiscing about characters from Season 1 who died (Lee, Duck, Katjaa) than characters from this season. In Season 2 when characters die hardly anyone reacts to it and they move on. Clem falling into the ice is a big example of that. Everyone is understandably freaked out about Clem potentially getting hypothermic, but they all mostly act as if they've forgotten that Luke just drowned. The same was true with Sarah's death.
Compare that to the aftermath of Carley (or Doug), Duck, and Katjaa dying in Season 1. The deaths for Season 2 have been mostly lacking for emotional impact.
Exactly. And why the hell start the season off like they did if he wasn't even going to be a choice in the end??? Luke was my favorite non-playable character of both seasons. He should have made it to S3, or at least the freaking end of this one
If you think about it, the reason Clem/the group wasn't that broken up about it was because while WE (not the characters) have known Luke for nearly a year, only about a week and a half has passed in-game. So Luke and the everyone else (besides Kenny) are just one of the many people who have come and go in Clem's post-apocalyptic life.
Final episode of season 1, I felt so damn empty and depressed. Even if you minused Lee's death, it would still be really sad. When Luke died I was like "Uhhh, ok... that was sad I guess..." I don't know I just didn't really process it.
you don't always have time to mourn. When Sarah died (second time), the group is worried about keeping Rebecca safe to deliver the baby. Carlos, they're to keep the herd from attacking them. Same with Luke, Clem (and Bonnie) were at risk of hypothermia. You have to go on for the living. Maybe they should have shown more grieving but some circumstances did not allow for it. I agree about Nick though, if he survived 202, they don't seem to mourn him at all.
It was easy to realize someone was going to die on that ice. That campfire moment was too precious not to think something bad was going to happen. It may not have ended in this "ice cream vs. pizza thing" mentioned so many times, but Kenny won that. It sucked though.
I gotta say, I don't understand why TTG made Kenny determinate?
It doesn't make any sense.
Kenny, would be the perfect candidate for a long-term character.
And as far as them crossing the frozen lake, that is completely stupid.
That is something you NEVER do.
The best thing to do, is find a way around it.
When you're in a survival situation, you DO NOT take needless risks.
It was well done, but not necessary at all.
also yeah I agree with you, sarah and nick deaths were well done. But if you think about it, sarah specifically. she could've gotten a even worse death if she lived on. Imagine the shoot out, or the lake, or the blizzard?
my baby nick would've lived on, maybe.. he probably wouldve went all out in the shoot out and ended up dying there. but if are choices mattered he would've stayed well hidden bc id tell him so