Yeah, you agree with him, I get it. It doesn't change what it is. It's like talking to a brick wall with you. Manipulation only feels like manipulation when you disagree with and/or distrust somebody. Manipulation just feels like a normal conversation when you agree with somebody. The reverse is also the case. If you distrust somebody them being truthful can sound like manipulation.
People really trust their interpretation of events far too much. Both of them were being truthful. I agreed with Jane, you agreed with Kenny and both sides have legitimate reasons. You're bending over backwards to validate your own opinion by trying to invalidate the opposing opinion. You don't have to do that. You don't see it our way, fine, but stop pretending like you've got it all figured out.
How do I remind you of someone with Stockholm Syndrome?
Kenny didn't use emotional manipulation, he was just asking Clementine to be on h… moreis side and help him, simply because he trusts Clementine as you mentioned. Asking someone this isn't manipulating them. Trust me, if Kenny didn't trust Clem he wouldn't ask her.
As the saying goes, 'What happens when the irresistible force hits the immovable object?' - its the Kenny and Jane fans. All I'm trying to do is defend my opinion and viewpoint. I do see your viewpoint, and I'm just giving my opinion/thoughts on it. Of course I'm trying to validate my own point, I'd look stupid if I just wrote stuff on here I didn't believe and didn't support.
Yeah, you agree with him, I get it. It doesn't change what it is. It's like talking to a brick wall with you. Manipulation only feels like m… moreanipulation when you disagree with and/or distrust somebody. Manipulation just feels like a normal conversation when you agree with somebody. The reverse is also the case. If you distrust somebody them being truthful can sound like manipulation.
People really trust their interpretation of events far too much. Both of them were being truthful. I agreed with Jane, you agreed with Kenny and both sides have legitimate reasons. You're bending over backwards to validate your own opinion by trying to invalidate the opposing opinion. You don't have to do that. You don't see it our way, fine, but stop pretending like you've got it all figured out.
Arguments like this one tend to miss the entire point of this episode, as well as the over-arcing point of the Walking Dead as a franchise, which is what Lee's flashback scene was all about:
"I don't know if we did the right thing."
[...]
"Its not as simple as math class."
[...]
"Yea, but part of growing up is doing what's best for the people you care about...even if sometimes...that means hurting someone else."
>
"I don't want to hurt anyone."
>
"...It's not that easy."
The entire episode is very deliberately about inciting the player to think about what #OurClementine really wants, who they really care about, and acknowledge that we don't get to have our cake and eat it, too. We can't make everyone happy sometimes -- in the extreme world of TWD that means we can't keep everyone alive.
BOTH Kenny and Jane had issues. BOTH of them cared deeply about Clementine. BOTH of them did violent and manipulative things during Season 2. And at the end of the season, the game asks players which one they felt more attached to -- or if they even felt attached to either of them. In turn, it invites the player to do exactly what we're doing now: discussing the story, the characters, considering WHY we made the choices we made and what that means about us as people. What I've quickly discovered in looking up discussion on this (something I haven't done with the TT games before now) is that a lot of people seem very quick to judge and get very adamant about what's "right" or "wrong". Which makes me sad. Because it misses the whole theme of the franchise, IMO.
The main thing I might've changed at the end is that there's no middle option for reaction. You can't tell Kenny/Jane "I'll still go with you but what you did was pretty shitty." It's either 'Fuck that other person, let's go' or 'Fuck you, you're crazy.' Realistically, I think it'd be more like Last of Us -- which I won't get into details about, BUT if you've seen that story you've seen a tale about how we learn to deal with other people's mistakes when we care about them, but that it's a process. Not an instantaneous "I forgive you" kind of thing.
On the ACTUAL topic at hand, per the thread's title, Jane got extremely attached to Clementine very quickly -- and My Clementine ended up reciprocating that. As a player, I felt like Clem became Jane's new reason for existing, her motivation to let herself start caring about people again, and My Clementine found Jane to be a single rock to anchor at in a shitstorm of people dying and abandoning her. So basically the Joel/Ellie dynamic a la Last of Us but more of a Sisters friendship than the Father/Daughter kind. My Clementine, by the end, wanted to find a new connection like she had with Lee -- a single person to trust in and care about that she could rely on. For players, that could either become Kenny or Jane, and I thought that was an interesting choice because both characters clearly wanted to function as surrogate guardians for Clementine, and both of them made horrible choices that got others hurt -- which My Clementine had also done by that point, really. And my Lee, for that matter.
Everyone seems to easily forget that Lee was a murderer BEFORE all of the zombie stuff hit, yet we idol worship him like he could do no wrong.
But Lee cared a lot about Clementine, regardless of what choices the player made. Clem was the reason, the purpose, Lee struggled to exist.
Jane and Kenny were doing the same thing, following that same philosophy but in different ways: sometimes others get hurt when you protect someone you care about. TWD Season 2 finale had to come up with a bit of a convoluted way for that to happen, plot-wise, but it ended up capturing the thematic climax pretty well, I thought, and the various endings really helping solidify a personalized feeling of attachment. I'm glad they let us choose to express who our Clementine was feeling motivated by.
She cares about Clem, but only because she sees her as Jamie 2.0
Otherwise, she wouldn't give a crap about her. If Clem was two years older or younger, maybe their relationship would be entirely different.
Yeah I was there, I know what you're talking about. But at least back then there were reasonable people who saw the flaws in ME3 and who weren't always defending the bad decisions BW made. Now that forum is full of BW ass kissers, it's awful; they will defend ME3 to the death. Trust me you're not missing anything over in that forum, it's still toxic.
I was a very active member of the Bioware forums for almost 2 years at the time. I defended the company from naysayers. I was like a rabid… more Kenny fanboy back then. Refusing to hear anyone who said they weren't perfect.
ME3 was a slap in the face for me. Yes the endings sucked but that wasn't the whole picture. It was that they promised us so much more and they didn't even try to deliver on half the promises. More than that they got big game journalists like IGN to act like we're just too stupid to get it. I still laugh at the term "artistic integrity"...
The entire experience ruined everything for me. I have since tried to get back into the Mass Effect series at least on 3 seperate occasions and only by not taking any of it seriously could I enjoy it anymore. Before ME3 came out I had at least 8 playthroughs of 1 and 2..... Each save was primed and ready for 3. I played it once. More than that it retroactively killed the serie… [view original content]
There's a lot of good stuff in this post. They are both hugely attached to Clem and both have their issues. For the record, I loved them both and relate to them both.
Where the whole thing lost me was not in what Jane did but in that even with a knife at her chest she didn't shout 'the baby is alive'. I get the idea of making her point but the point had long been made and the fact that it went so far seemingly pointlessly was a problem for me. That along with the very black or white 'never go with her' or 'forgive her' (very uncharacteristic of the game) just seemed to be trying to force an ending that didn't quite fit. So my issue is not with Jane - it's with the writers of the end sequence.
Where the game deserves kudos is making me and clearly a lot of other people love Jane so quickly. I wanted Clem to go with her very soon into ep4. I just think getting there got very clumsy.
There's a lot of good stuff in this post. They are both hugely attached to Clem and both have their issues. For the record, I loved them bot… moreh and relate to them both.
Where the whole thing lost me was not in what Jane did but in that even with a knife at her chest she didn't shout 'the baby is alive'. I get the idea of making her point but the point had long been made and the fact that it went so far seemingly pointlessly was a problem for me. That along with the very black or white 'never go with her' or 'forgive her' (very uncharacteristic of the game) just seemed to be trying to force an ending that didn't quite fit. So my issue is not with Jane - it's with the writers of the end sequence.
Where the game deserves kudos is making me and clearly a lot of other people love Jane so quickly. I wanted Clem to go with her very soon into ep4. I just think getting there got very clumsy.
"How Can People Say Jane Doesn't Care About Clem?"
Well, first you say "Jane" then you say "doesn't" then you say "care" then you say "about" then you say "Clem."
Then you put it all together like this. clears throat "Jane doesn't care about Clem."
Now then, I think it's obvious that she "does" care about Clem, in story, but that's how you say that she doesn't.
If you're talking about "reality" though, yeah, she doesn't care about Clem, because Jane doesn't exist and existence is the very first prerequisite for being able to care about something.
There's a lot of good stuff in this post. They are both hugely attached to Clem and both have their issues. For the record, I loved them bot… moreh and relate to them both.
Where the whole thing lost me was not in what Jane did but in that even with a knife at her chest she didn't shout 'the baby is alive'. I get the idea of making her point but the point had long been made and the fact that it went so far seemingly pointlessly was a problem for me. That along with the very black or white 'never go with her' or 'forgive her' (very uncharacteristic of the game) just seemed to be trying to force an ending that didn't quite fit. So my issue is not with Jane - it's with the writers of the end sequence.
Where the game deserves kudos is making me and clearly a lot of other people love Jane so quickly. I wanted Clem to go with her very soon into ep4. I just think getting there got very clumsy.
This, although I've read that you can stay silent with Jane after shooting Kenny and you travel with her, so I'd probably pick that really. It sounds like it'd be more narratively emotional and more realistic. Just an "I'm speechless with you" look. I hope that's an option with Kenny too, I felt like a tool forgiving Jane so fast but I didn't want Clem to be abandoned with AJ. I'd honestly want to say "I can't forgive you, but we're stuck together, we'll work on it" instead of betraying one of them by acting like best friends
and where did he say that Duck 2.0 nonsense?
And your maybes and ifs is what everyone could do with Jane, MAYBE jane was a psycho who kills little girls and lets die who she think should die ,and IF Clem got in her way Clem MAYBE would have to fight for her life. IF that is true then MAYBE she would be safer with Kenny
Jane doesn't care about them all and if she wants she'll leave them in a heartbeat.... she did it before and she'll do it again
Kenny cares about Clem, but only because she sees her as Duck 2.0(he said himself)
Otherwise, he wouldn't give a crap about her. If Clem was two years older or younger, maybe their relationship would be entirely different.
Comments
Actually, No Going Back was a tale of a little girl and the two only people that truly cared about her were at each other's throats.
Yeah, you agree with him, I get it. It doesn't change what it is. It's like talking to a brick wall with you. Manipulation only feels like manipulation when you disagree with and/or distrust somebody. Manipulation just feels like a normal conversation when you agree with somebody. The reverse is also the case. If you distrust somebody them being truthful can sound like manipulation.
People really trust their interpretation of events far too much. Both of them were being truthful. I agreed with Jane, you agreed with Kenny and both sides have legitimate reasons. You're bending over backwards to validate your own opinion by trying to invalidate the opposing opinion. You don't have to do that. You don't see it our way, fine, but stop pretending like you've got it all figured out.
As the saying goes, 'What happens when the irresistible force hits the immovable object?' - its the Kenny and Jane fans. All I'm trying to do is defend my opinion and viewpoint. I do see your viewpoint, and I'm just giving my opinion/thoughts on it. Of course I'm trying to validate my own point, I'd look stupid if I just wrote stuff on here I didn't believe and didn't support.
Arguments like this one tend to miss the entire point of this episode, as well as the over-arcing point of the Walking Dead as a franchise, which is what Lee's flashback scene was all about:
>
>
The entire episode is very deliberately about inciting the player to think about what #OurClementine really wants, who they really care about, and acknowledge that we don't get to have our cake and eat it, too. We can't make everyone happy sometimes -- in the extreme world of TWD that means we can't keep everyone alive.
BOTH Kenny and Jane had issues. BOTH of them cared deeply about Clementine. BOTH of them did violent and manipulative things during Season 2. And at the end of the season, the game asks players which one they felt more attached to -- or if they even felt attached to either of them. In turn, it invites the player to do exactly what we're doing now: discussing the story, the characters, considering WHY we made the choices we made and what that means about us as people. What I've quickly discovered in looking up discussion on this (something I haven't done with the TT games before now) is that a lot of people seem very quick to judge and get very adamant about what's "right" or "wrong". Which makes me sad. Because it misses the whole theme of the franchise, IMO.
The main thing I might've changed at the end is that there's no middle option for reaction. You can't tell Kenny/Jane "I'll still go with you but what you did was pretty shitty." It's either 'Fuck that other person, let's go' or 'Fuck you, you're crazy.' Realistically, I think it'd be more like Last of Us -- which I won't get into details about, BUT if you've seen that story you've seen a tale about how we learn to deal with other people's mistakes when we care about them, but that it's a process. Not an instantaneous "I forgive you" kind of thing.
On the ACTUAL topic at hand, per the thread's title, Jane got extremely attached to Clementine very quickly -- and My Clementine ended up reciprocating that. As a player, I felt like Clem became Jane's new reason for existing, her motivation to let herself start caring about people again, and My Clementine found Jane to be a single rock to anchor at in a shitstorm of people dying and abandoning her. So basically the Joel/Ellie dynamic a la Last of Us but more of a Sisters friendship than the Father/Daughter kind. My Clementine, by the end, wanted to find a new connection like she had with Lee -- a single person to trust in and care about that she could rely on. For players, that could either become Kenny or Jane, and I thought that was an interesting choice because both characters clearly wanted to function as surrogate guardians for Clementine, and both of them made horrible choices that got others hurt -- which My Clementine had also done by that point, really. And my Lee, for that matter.
Everyone seems to easily forget that Lee was a murderer BEFORE all of the zombie stuff hit, yet we idol worship him like he could do no wrong.
But Lee cared a lot about Clementine, regardless of what choices the player made. Clem was the reason, the purpose, Lee struggled to exist.
Jane and Kenny were doing the same thing, following that same philosophy but in different ways: sometimes others get hurt when you protect someone you care about. TWD Season 2 finale had to come up with a bit of a convoluted way for that to happen, plot-wise, but it ended up capturing the thematic climax pretty well, I thought, and the various endings really helping solidify a personalized feeling of attachment. I'm glad they let us choose to express who our Clementine was feeling motivated by.
Kenny cares about Clem, but only because she sees her as Duck 2.0(he said himself)
Otherwise, he wouldn't give a crap about her. If Clem was two years older or younger, maybe their relationship would be entirely different.
Yeah I was there, I know what you're talking about. But at least back then there were reasonable people who saw the flaws in ME3 and who weren't always defending the bad decisions BW made. Now that forum is full of BW ass kissers, it's awful; they will defend ME3 to the death. Trust me you're not missing anything over in that forum, it's still toxic.
There's a lot of good stuff in this post. They are both hugely attached to Clem and both have their issues. For the record, I loved them both and relate to them both.
Where the whole thing lost me was not in what Jane did but in that even with a knife at her chest she didn't shout 'the baby is alive'. I get the idea of making her point but the point had long been made and the fact that it went so far seemingly pointlessly was a problem for me. That along with the very black or white 'never go with her' or 'forgive her' (very uncharacteristic of the game) just seemed to be trying to force an ending that didn't quite fit. So my issue is not with Jane - it's with the writers of the end sequence.
Where the game deserves kudos is making me and clearly a lot of other people love Jane so quickly. I wanted Clem to go with her very soon into ep4. I just think getting there got very clumsy.
Your post is... :') we need more people like you mate, why don't you remove the spoiler tag and let everyone see it.
You're right, it's not Jane's fault that she didn't say something about the baby, it's the writers' whom forced an ending.
"How Can People Say Jane Doesn't Care About Clem?"
Well, first you say "Jane" then you say "doesn't" then you say "care" then you say "about" then you say "Clem."
Then you put it all together like this. clears throat "Jane doesn't care about Clem."
Now then, I think it's obvious that she "does" care about Clem, in story, but that's how you say that she doesn't.
If you're talking about "reality" though, yeah, she doesn't care about Clem, because Jane doesn't exist and existence is the very first prerequisite for being able to care about something.
This, unsure why she couldn't have said it but been obscured by dialogue or fighting, giving a hint that she wanted to say
This, although I've read that you can stay silent with Jane after shooting Kenny and you travel with her, so I'd probably pick that really. It sounds like it'd be more narratively emotional and more realistic. Just an "I'm speechless with you" look. I hope that's an option with Kenny too, I felt like a tool forgiving Jane so fast but I didn't want Clem to be abandoned with AJ. I'd honestly want to say "I can't forgive you, but we're stuck together, we'll work on it" instead of betraying one of them by acting like best friends
and where did he say that Duck 2.0 nonsense?
And your maybes and ifs is what everyone could do with Jane, MAYBE jane was a psycho who kills little girls and lets die who she think should die ,and IF Clem got in her way Clem MAYBE would have to fight for her life. IF that is true then MAYBE she would be safer with Kenny
Jane doesn't care about them all and if she wants she'll leave them in a heartbeat.... she did it before and she'll do it again