Oh. She betrays, then feels guilty for betraying, then betrays again. That's how Bonnie is, even in 400 days. She whacked that woman with the rebar. Then felt bad about it. But it doesnt erase what she does is always the wrong thing. She's like Ben. But without the 'well meaningness'
It really doesn't fit her character, seeing as Bonnie never actually said she was a chicken at any point, and she was the one who was willing to fire her gun while in the middle of a herd to protect Clem and Sarah. Pretty brave if you ask me.
I agree Mike was probably the most 'out of character' - unless you accept the fact that Mike's one consistent characterization is he's a follower, not a leader. If we assume that Bonnie talked him into leaving, it's moderately in character for him to be talked into going along with her. He lets everyone order him around.
Rebecca was pregnant, she was moody.
Carlos was glad Clementine was in the cabin and prevented Carver finding and taking Sarah.
Bonnie… more was stressed out of the situation with Kenny going nuts and Luke, the guy she possibly loved dying. (Pretty sure she didn't love Rebecca)
Mike was the only one out of character, I don't know why he would leave Clem without any supplies. You can say he'd leave AJ since you can see he doesn't want to have anything to do with him and probably doesn't believe he'll make it anyway.
EDIT: To be fair, we didn't know much about him and him trying to be useful and nice to the group could have been just for his own safety. I mean we really didn't know his character THAT much, but they made him look very good in episode 4... he even cared about Arvo a lot, but that also could have been just so he can have another excuse to justify the thing he'll do to Clem and the baby.
"It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk." Museum was an accident, Bonnie only killed Dee when she thought Dee was one of the group members trying to kill her, so that was an accident, sided with Carver out of fear or possibly did chicken out, don't half of the characters in this season put Clem at risk? And Bonnie was desperate to save Luke, and that is kind of a flaw, but still, so, no Bonnie leaving doesn't feel in character at all.
Actually it doesnt go against BONNIE'S character. Her character IS to make stupid decisions and put Clem and others she's with at risk. She… more did so with the last group she was with too (and wound up killing that woman). Then she sided with Carver even when the new group was nice to her. Then put Clem at risk with the zombie in the museum. Then tries to put Clem at risk on the ice. It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk. Mike's a bit more of a shock though I somehow think he was just a follower and it was Bonnie's idea (probably also Bonnie's idea to steal all the supplies).
Mike strikes me as a real 'follower' mentality, and I'm pretty sure he would have taken Clem with him if that little punk Arvo didnt shoot Clem (at which point Mike had to flee because he knew he would get killed by Jane AND Kenny for what Arvo did).
Yeah, by stealing all the supplies, she's effectively killing Clem and AJ, and Bonnie just isn't the kind of person to do that.
Also, there is a way you could shoot and kill Mike at that scene, but I think it's been patched out which is weird. If you choose silence when he's trying to talk you down, and let the timer run out when you can choose to threaten or give up, Clem will shoot Mike and he'll fall down and die, and Bonnie is in the background like "8O" and then Arvo proceeds to shoot Clem and the rest follows. But idk why they patched it out, perhaps they have future plans for Mike? But yeah, I wish we could've had more of a strong arm at that part. I wanted to be able to tell Mike to back the fuck up, and if he doesn't have a choice to actually shoot him.
Exactly. What happened with Bonnie was a super rude shock. But I believed it was a case of Clem being taken for granted. Clem has been, and … morewas expected to risk limb and life to save the day and for everyone in the group despite being an eleven year old. The moment she refuses to do that or fails to save the day as usual, she's suddenly as useful as that dirt on your shoe. That really pisses me off. Plus Bonnie and Mike didn't even hesitate to leave with all the supplies, which is an effective death sentence to Jane, Kenny, Clem and AJ.
At that point I don't really understand why there's no option to shoot or even keep the gun as you wind up giving up the gun. Seeing the way Bonnie and Mike behaved, it just makes ZERO sense.
I disliked Jane because she killed the russian who was about to kill Kenny.
However, after that, I liked her because she was the one who provided the KILLING KENNY choice, which I've waited for since S1 E3
But at the same time, Mike agrees to leave Clem and Jane without any of their supplies? They're leaving a little girl and the woman that saved the group to die.
And Bonnie said that she would help look after the baby, or something of that nature when they were lamenting over Rebecca's corpse. Then she just turns around and takes all the supplies? I'd understand if they wanted to take a few things with them, but taking everything was the wrong thing to do.
Yeah, that part made no sense to me either. They spend all episode overly concerned with Arvo cuz he was a kid, but then they go and steal a… morell the supplies and only working car and effectively leave 2 kids, both younger then Arvo, to die? Like, I dont understand what would make them prioritize Arvo over Clem and AJ?
Yeah, that would have been much better! Plus it would have made it more believable if at least one of our group dies during that gun fight! Still cant believe we only ended up with two small wounds considering they were pointing their guns right at us at close range.
I'll say it again - Sarah should have been able to have been saved when the deck collapsed by Jane.... then die in the shootout. THAT would have been a better death. Especially if you got to talk to her one more time like you did with Pete.
Her killing Dee doesn't belong in this discussion. That was a pure accident, and considering that Bonnie dies if you don't do that, there is no moral dilemma here as far as taking action in that split-second goes.
And yeah, basically what J-Master said, especially the part about everybody and their mother in this game putting Clementine at risk every other second, not just Bonnie. Maybe I could understand if you chose to cover Luke, leading her to hate Clementine, but that too was problematic because it didn't make any sense. Her whole thought process when it came to saving Luke and her subsequent reaction is just all over the place.
And yes, you can ask Mike to go along, to which he agrees, however that still means they'd all be okay leaving the baby and Jane behind to die (they're fine with doing it to Kenny), despite having no problem with her before and being very protective of the baby before that one point. They sacrificed just as much as anyone to make sure Rebecca gave birth in a relatively safe place, and Bonnie's the one who made the vow to protect the baby to Rebecca when they were all mourning for her. It just didn't connect that she would decide leaving him was a good idea, no matter her issues with Clem or Kenny.
Actually it doesnt go against BONNIE'S character. Her character IS to make stupid decisions and put Clem and others she's with at risk. She… more did so with the last group she was with too (and wound up killing that woman). Then she sided with Carver even when the new group was nice to her. Then put Clem at risk with the zombie in the museum. Then tries to put Clem at risk on the ice. It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk. Mike's a bit more of a shock though I somehow think he was just a follower and it was Bonnie's idea (probably also Bonnie's idea to steal all the supplies).
Mike strikes me as a real 'follower' mentality, and I'm pretty sure he would have taken Clem with him if that little punk Arvo didnt shoot Clem (at which point Mike had to flee because he knew he would get killed by Jane AND Kenny for what Arvo did).
Mike and Bonnie wanting to leave Kenny due to his increasing instability had some clear build-up, but their willingness to steal absolutely everything and leave Clementine to die didn't.
Granted we didn't know them that long, but something as simple as having them leave one of the bags for Clementine would have at least shown some shred of how they seemed to care about her in the last few episodes.
In 400 days it was self defense. She was being chased by people trying to kill her. She didn't know who she was attacking. Somebody got closed she got scared and acted on it. There was no intent to betray anyone.
Oh. She betrays, then feels guilty for betraying, then betrays again. That's how Bonnie is, even in 400 days. She whacked that woman with th… moree rebar. Then felt bad about it. But it doesnt erase what she does is always the wrong thing. She's like Ben. But without the 'well meaningness'
I disliked Jane because she killed the russian who was about to kill Kenny.
However, after that, I liked her because she was the one who provided the KILLING KENNY choice, which I've waited for since S1 E3
Like several people stated them wanting to leave made sense. The way the did it made none. At least if you we're nice to mike and bonnie and had a good relationship with him. And this is where the "lazy writing" part comes in. If they were angry at Clem I'd have had no problem with the scene because it would have made sense given Bonnie's betrayal at the lodge (given we know what happens when people don't do what carver wants sooo). But depending on how you act with her there was remorse and intent to do better. And this is to me the reason the whole scene falls apart and is just there to add additional drama and get a reaction out of the player.
People say its brilliant because they didn't see it coming. But there is a difference between not seeing it coming because it was cleverly hidden and not seeing it coming because it was out of character.
I can see why they would want to leave. They didn't want to get caught up in a Lilly situation. At the same time though, they were kind of pricks for stealing the car also the supplies which we're going to help the baby, so I'm guessing they were gonna leave the baby that they seemed to care about dead. They probably just should've left in a Glenn situation, where everyone seems to be settled down. But who knows when that was gonna happen since Arvo was probably gonna die by Kenny if they stayed a day longer.
1) She didn't side with Carver's group out of fear at all. She sided with Carver's group because she consistently makes the wrong decision. She wasnt 'scared' of Carver at all. She could have done all sorts of things when she came across Clem's group - she could have joined and let them know about Carver. She could have told Carver she didn't find anyone, since she was the scout. When Carver started KILLING people, she could have shot Carver herself. And yes, she killed Dee when she thought one of that corn field group's members were trying to kill her - doesnt change the fact that she killed her. And Dee's husband is mysteriously absent when Tavia finds her - I'm somehow thinking she made another brilliant decision which got him killed as well. Bonnie does STUPID stuff where she's totally thinking about herself without thinking things through, so yeah - her leaving and taking the supplies doesn't surprise me - it disappoints me because I had hoped she'd have improved from her mistakes, but it doesn't surprise me.
"It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk." Museum was an accident, Bonnie only killed Dee when she thought Dee was one o… moref the group members trying to kill her, so that was an accident, sided with Carver out of fear or possibly did chicken out, don't half of the characters in this season put Clem at risk? And Bonnie was desperate to save Luke, and that is kind of a flaw, but still, so, no Bonnie leaving doesn't feel in character at all.
I don't think it was bad writing personally. It was subtle, but the tension between Mike and Kenny was there. Right after Kenny attacks Arvo… more in the cabin, Mike even says he can't put up with this. I'm not surprised by Bonnie at all. She's been flip flopping all season and she's easily persuaded.
I think Mike's actions were far more out of character than Bonnie's. Mike struck me as very capable, caring, and not prone to making dumb decisions, then he makes a decision which is stupid AND uncaring for people who he should have compassion for (Clem and the baby), in favor of some punk who already had them ambushed once (and who tried to rob them all).
Bonnie, on the other hand, has a history of siding with the wrong side and siding with people who ambush the group. Even though she claims to be well meaning, she talks the talk but when things get to where she has to make a tough decision, she makes the wrong one. Every single time. Bonnie said she'd look after the baby - that just makes her actions A DAY later all the more disgusting - not necessarily out of character. But still disgusting as a human being.
Yeah, that part made no sense to me either. They spend all episode overly concerned with Arvo cuz he was a kid, but then they go and steal a… morell the supplies and only working car and effectively leave 2 kids, both younger then Arvo, to die? Like, I dont understand what would make them prioritize Arvo over Clem and AJ?
Ben at least was well meaning (albeit stupid) in how he betrayed the group - he felt that giving the bandits supplies would keep them from attacking the group (which it actually did - they only attacked once they stopped getting supplies). What Bonnie and Mike did wasnt well-meaning - it was selfish and thoughtless.
Actually, if it comes out of nowhere and goes completely against pre-established characterization, that's pretty much the definition of "out… more of character". What matters at that point is whether or not it can be justified beyond, "well, sometimes people do crazy stuff..." Otherwise, during season 3 Clementine can suddenly get an evil grin and slaughter someone who threatens her life and laugh about it and then go back to normal and we would just have to accept that, "well, we didn't know whether or not Clementine had an evil side to her... or something..."
Something like Ben betraying the group was a shock, but it made sense given how little we knew about him other than that he was a bit cowardly, and that he had a connection to the bandits harassing the group. Mike and Bonnie had been nothing but helpful and protective of the baby up until then, but suddenly were willing to take off in the night and apparently leave Clem and AJ behind as well.
I'm not so sure that Kenny would have murdered her. Lets look at the people who Kenny has wanted to kill:
Carver - who DIDNT want to kill Carver? He needed to die.
Ben - He did cause Kenny's family to die - and if Ben doesnt die, Kenny winds up risking his life to SAVE Ben. So I guess Kenny's not that bloodthirsty after all when it came to Ben.
Larry - lets face it, Kenny unfortunately actually did the right thing - Larry was having a heart attack and was dying already. While they were all locked in that meat locker. And Larry was a STRONG guy - and would be a strong zombie. Aside from the fact that Larry was a hateful person who did try to kill Lee in the drug store (after Lee saved Larry's life) and who did try to have Duck thrown out into the street by claiming he was bitten when he wasnt, there's the simple fact that Larry was going to die, which was going to cause all of them to be at risk of being zombie food. Sure, maybe he could have waited for him to die first, then smash his head in, but tension was high, they needed to get out of there, and he acted quickly to make the hard decision.
Arvo - the druggie who ambushed them and had his russian friends try to steal all the group's stuff and shoot them, when they had a child and a baby and the russians SAW that. And Kenny was right to want to kill Arvo, after you see what Arvo ultimately did.
Jane - The woman who tricked Clem and Kenny into thinking that she had killed the baby (and who had for a couple of days talked about how a baby would be a liability in this world, and who has a history of letting go of liabilities, like her sister and Sarah, in order to survive). Even if you assume that Jane 'accidentally got the baby killed' - from Kenny's perspective - she was sure trying to set Kenny off with the one thing she KNEW would. After you find out that the baby was actually alive, trust me - I wanted to shoot Jane myself.
Who else has Kenny tried to kill or talked about killing? He never did with Bonnie, never did with Luke (who he argued with a lot), never did with Lily (who was unhinged and he argued with a lot - and if anyone deserved to be killed, it was Lily after she killed Doug or Carlie). He definitely never did with Mike (and Kenny was shocked that Mike did what he did even). So Kenny's not some bloodthirsty animal wanting to kill people - he just is incredibly protective of the group and doesnt want to keep people around who are going to get the group killed. Kenny's main problem isnt that he's unreasonably violent (to be honest, he's quite reasonably violent, given each situation he was in) - it's that he's bullheaded and stubborn, especially when under stress - but he does pull himself together each time.
1) Her killing Dee does belong in the conversation, since it's another example of Bonnie doing something without thinking things through
2) Bonnie puts Clem in danger for things that she can do on her own. She goes out of her way to ask Clem to do things which are ill-advised. Others ask Clem to do things because there's no other choice, or it's something Clem thinks of doing on her own. Bonnie has the attention span of a gerbil.
Her killing Dee doesn't belong in this discussion. That was a pure accident, and considering that Bonnie dies if you don't do that, there is… more no moral dilemma here as far as taking action in that split-second goes.
And yeah, basically what J-Master said, especially the part about everybody and their mother in this game putting Clementine at risk every other second, not just Bonnie. Maybe I could understand if you chose to cover Luke, leading her to hate Clementine, but that too was problematic because it didn't make any sense. Her whole thought process when it came to saving Luke and her subsequent reaction is just all over the place.
And yes, you can ask Mike to go along, to which he agrees, however that still means they'd all be okay leaving the baby and Jane behind to die (they're fine with doing it to Kenny), despite having no problem with her before and being very protective of the baby before that one point. They sacrificed just as… [view original content]
I never trusted Bonnie. Mike I didn't have an opinion on until they took every thing and there is a baby to take care of. Kenny scares everyone so it is hard for me to blame them.
This is the ZA right? If I want to survive, I can't concern myself with other people. Why would I leave any supplies behind? Its no different from Stephanie taking supplies from Roman's group or taking Arvo's meds. I'm taking that all because I'm going to need all. So Mike and Bonnie, when deciding to leave the group essentially are deciding to care for themselves hence taking all supplies.
They wanted to get away from Kenny. They still want to survive. Its a snake move to leave Clem shot and bleeding like that but what's their alternative? Stay? Nah.
I find it weird when people try to defend/blame one but not the other. Both of them seemed very OOC to me and neither of their actions made sense. Its actually kinda annoying how many ppl try to excuse Mike while at the same time outright condemning Bonnie.
I mean, to play devils advocate here, Mike was willing to drop us to our death cuz he didnt want to get caught helping us escape (I know its not a canon death but its Clems actions that prevent it, Mikes stay the same). So making dumb, uncaring decisions that get little girls killed is not exactly unprecedented. And Bonnie made the right decision when she stood up to Carver and saved Kenny, AND when she helped the group escape. She also seemed genuinely sorry for Walters and Reggies deaths. Bonnie also seemed to really care about both Clem and AJ, more then Mike imo, so her leaving them to die seems more OOC then her being a "disgusting human being".
I admit that I never played the 400 DLC, so maybe your biased is due to what happened there? Either way, I think saving Arvo, at the expense of both Clem and AJ (and Jane) makes no sense no matter what way you look at it, for either character.
I think Mike's actions were far more out of character than Bonnie's. Mike struck me as very capable, caring, and not prone to making dumb d… moreecisions, then he makes a decision which is stupid AND uncaring for people who he should have compassion for (Clem and the baby), in favor of some punk who already had them ambushed once (and who tried to rob them all).
Bonnie, on the other hand, has a history of siding with the wrong side and siding with people who ambush the group. Even though she claims to be well meaning, she talks the talk but when things get to where she has to make a tough decision, she makes the wrong one. Every single time. Bonnie said she'd look after the baby - that just makes her actions A DAY later all the more disgusting - not necessarily out of character. But still disgusting as a human being.
Hrm. Mike never was willing to do that in my playthrough.
And Bonnie is a lot of lip service. When it come sto actually putting the childrens' needs before her own, she chooses herself every time. I just know more about Bonnie's history than Mike's, and Bonnie's history is not a great one, whereas with Mike, I just know a couple of days of him - during which he seemed to be a lot more 'thinking of others before himself' - at the museum, helping Kenny hold off the walkers, etc. Even in the scene where Arvo shoots Clem, he probably would have let Clem come if Arvo hadnt shot her Then him leaving was all out of fear, because he knew if he stayed, Kenny (AND probably Jane as well) would have killed him for letting Arvo go, which caused Clem to get shot.
Bonnie has a history of siding with the wrong side. IF none of hte others from 400 days go with Tavia, Bonnie still goes no matter what. She's 'bad choice bonnie.'
I didnt say that either of them siding with Arvo made sense - I just think Bonnie's choosing to escape with Arvo (and steal the supplies) makes more sense than Mike doing the same thing does (even if he is sweet on Bonnie).
I find it weird when people try to defend/blame one but not the other. Both of them seemed very OOC to me and neither of their actions made … moresense. Its actually kinda annoying how many ppl try to excuse Mike while at the same time outright condemning Bonnie.
I mean, to play devils advocate here, Mike was willing to drop us to our death cuz he didnt want to get caught helping us escape (I know its not a canon death but its Clems actions that prevent it, Mikes stay the same). So making dumb, uncaring decisions that get little girls killed is not exactly unprecedented. And Bonnie made the right decision when she stood up to Carver and saved Kenny, AND when she helped the group escape. She also seemed genuinely sorry for Walters and Reggies deaths. Bonnie also seemed to really care about both Clem and AJ, more then Mike imo, so her leaving them to die seems more OOC then her being a "disgusting human being".
I admit that I never played the 4… [view original content]
Yes he was. Its in everyones playthrough. Just cuz you grabbed the ladder in time doesnt change the fact that if you take too long he will drop you and you die.
Hrm. Mike never was willing to do that in my playthrough.
And Bonnie is a lot of lip service. When it come sto actually putting the child… morerens' needs before her own, she chooses herself every time. I just know more about Bonnie's history than Mike's, and Bonnie's history is not a great one, whereas with Mike, I just know a couple of days of him - during which he seemed to be a lot more 'thinking of others before himself' - at the museum, helping Kenny hold off the walkers, etc. Even in the scene where Arvo shoots Clem, he probably would have let Clem come if Arvo hadnt shot her Then him leaving was all out of fear, because he knew if he stayed, Kenny (AND probably Jane as well) would have killed him for letting Arvo go, which caused Clem to get shot.
Bonnie has a history of siding with the wrong side. IF none of hte others from 400 days go with Tavia, Bonnie still goes no matter what. She's 'bad choice bonnie.'
I didnt say that eit… [view original content]
Is that when someone's coming in and he has to grab the ladder to prevent the guards from seeing that Clem is 'escaping'?
I think you're making a real stretch of having Mike be 'willing to let us drop to our death' there. If he doesnt remove the ladder and hope that Clem will have grabbed the ladder, Clem will probably be shot for trying to escape.
Yes he was. Its in everyones playthrough. Just cuz you grabbed the ladder in time doesnt change the fact that if you take too long he will drop you and you die.
- 1:25
At first I thought it was a clever, shocking, twist.
My gripe is that it falls apart when you realise they found beating up the guy who g… moreot two of their group killed too far, but they were perfectly willing to let a nine year old and a baby die in the cold instead.
So yeah, it does kind of feel like their personalities took a hit just to force it on us.
Comments
Oh. She betrays, then feels guilty for betraying, then betrays again. That's how Bonnie is, even in 400 days. She whacked that woman with the rebar. Then felt bad about it. But it doesnt erase what she does is always the wrong thing. She's like Ben. But without the 'well meaningness'
Brave and stupid are not necessarily the same thing.
I agree Mike was probably the most 'out of character' - unless you accept the fact that Mike's one consistent characterization is he's a follower, not a leader. If we assume that Bonnie talked him into leaving, it's moderately in character for him to be talked into going along with her. He lets everyone order him around.
"It's totally consistent for Bonnie to turn out to be a jerk." Museum was an accident, Bonnie only killed Dee when she thought Dee was one of the group members trying to kill her, so that was an accident, sided with Carver out of fear or possibly did chicken out, don't half of the characters in this season put Clem at risk? And Bonnie was desperate to save Luke, and that is kind of a flaw, but still, so, no Bonnie leaving doesn't feel in character at all.
Yeah, by stealing all the supplies, she's effectively killing Clem and AJ, and Bonnie just isn't the kind of person to do that.
Also, there is a way you could shoot and kill Mike at that scene, but I think it's been patched out which is weird. If you choose silence when he's trying to talk you down, and let the timer run out when you can choose to threaten or give up, Clem will shoot Mike and he'll fall down and die, and Bonnie is in the background like "8O" and then Arvo proceeds to shoot Clem and the rest follows. But idk why they patched it out, perhaps they have future plans for Mike? But yeah, I wish we could've had more of a strong arm at that part. I wanted to be able to tell Mike to back the fuck up, and if he doesn't have a choice to actually shoot him.
I disliked Jane because she killed the russian who was about to kill Kenny.
However, after that, I liked her because she was the one who provided the KILLING KENNY choice, which I've waited for since S1 E3
In other words, I'm right, you're wrong. Good to know.
And Bonnie said that she would help look after the baby, or something of that nature when they were lamenting over Rebecca's corpse. Then she just turns around and takes all the supplies? I'd understand if they wanted to take a few things with them, but taking everything was the wrong thing to do.
Yeah, that would have been much better! Plus it would have made it more believable if at least one of our group dies during that gun fight! Still cant believe we only ended up with two small wounds considering they were pointing their guns right at us at close range.
Her killing Dee doesn't belong in this discussion. That was a pure accident, and considering that Bonnie dies if you don't do that, there is no moral dilemma here as far as taking action in that split-second goes.
And yeah, basically what J-Master said, especially the part about everybody and their mother in this game putting Clementine at risk every other second, not just Bonnie. Maybe I could understand if you chose to cover Luke, leading her to hate Clementine, but that too was problematic because it didn't make any sense. Her whole thought process when it came to saving Luke and her subsequent reaction is just all over the place.
And yes, you can ask Mike to go along, to which he agrees, however that still means they'd all be okay leaving the baby and Jane behind to die (they're fine with doing it to Kenny), despite having no problem with her before and being very protective of the baby before that one point. They sacrificed just as much as anyone to make sure Rebecca gave birth in a relatively safe place, and Bonnie's the one who made the vow to protect the baby to Rebecca when they were all mourning for her. It just didn't connect that she would decide leaving him was a good idea, no matter her issues with Clem or Kenny.
Mike and Bonnie wanting to leave Kenny due to his increasing instability had some clear build-up, but their willingness to steal absolutely everything and leave Clementine to die didn't.
Granted we didn't know them that long, but something as simple as having them leave one of the bags for Clementine would have at least shown some shred of how they seemed to care about her in the last few episodes.
In 400 days it was self defense. She was being chased by people trying to kill her. She didn't know who she was attacking. Somebody got closed she got scared and acted on it. There was no intent to betray anyone.
AreUFuckingKiddingMe? XD
Like several people stated them wanting to leave made sense. The way the did it made none. At least if you we're nice to mike and bonnie and had a good relationship with him. And this is where the "lazy writing" part comes in. If they were angry at Clem I'd have had no problem with the scene because it would have made sense given Bonnie's betrayal at the lodge (given we know what happens when people don't do what carver wants sooo). But depending on how you act with her there was remorse and intent to do better. And this is to me the reason the whole scene falls apart and is just there to add additional drama and get a reaction out of the player.
People say its brilliant because they didn't see it coming. But there is a difference between not seeing it coming because it was cleverly hidden and not seeing it coming because it was out of character.
I can see why they would want to leave. They didn't want to get caught up in a Lilly situation. At the same time though, they were kind of pricks for stealing the car also the supplies which we're going to help the baby, so I'm guessing they were gonna leave the baby that they seemed to care about dead. They probably just should've left in a Glenn situation, where everyone seems to be settled down. But who knows when that was gonna happen since Arvo was probably gonna die by Kenny if they stayed a day longer.
1) She didn't side with Carver's group out of fear at all. She sided with Carver's group because she consistently makes the wrong decision. She wasnt 'scared' of Carver at all. She could have done all sorts of things when she came across Clem's group - she could have joined and let them know about Carver. She could have told Carver she didn't find anyone, since she was the scout. When Carver started KILLING people, she could have shot Carver herself. And yes, she killed Dee when she thought one of that corn field group's members were trying to kill her - doesnt change the fact that she killed her. And Dee's husband is mysteriously absent when Tavia finds her - I'm somehow thinking she made another brilliant decision which got him killed as well. Bonnie does STUPID stuff where she's totally thinking about herself without thinking things through, so yeah - her leaving and taking the supplies doesn't surprise me - it disappoints me because I had hoped she'd have improved from her mistakes, but it doesn't surprise me.
at this very point, I HATE ARVO! I want to kill him COLD BLOOD
Yeah, that girl Bonnie, never trusted her.. easy come easy go
I think Mike's actions were far more out of character than Bonnie's. Mike struck me as very capable, caring, and not prone to making dumb decisions, then he makes a decision which is stupid AND uncaring for people who he should have compassion for (Clem and the baby), in favor of some punk who already had them ambushed once (and who tried to rob them all).
Bonnie, on the other hand, has a history of siding with the wrong side and siding with people who ambush the group. Even though she claims to be well meaning, she talks the talk but when things get to where she has to make a tough decision, she makes the wrong one. Every single time. Bonnie said she'd look after the baby - that just makes her actions A DAY later all the more disgusting - not necessarily out of character. But still disgusting as a human being.
Ben at least was well meaning (albeit stupid) in how he betrayed the group - he felt that giving the bandits supplies would keep them from attacking the group (which it actually did - they only attacked once they stopped getting supplies). What Bonnie and Mike did wasnt well-meaning - it was selfish and thoughtless.
I'm not so sure that Kenny would have murdered her. Lets look at the people who Kenny has wanted to kill:
Carver - who DIDNT want to kill Carver? He needed to die.
Ben - He did cause Kenny's family to die - and if Ben doesnt die, Kenny winds up risking his life to SAVE Ben. So I guess Kenny's not that bloodthirsty after all when it came to Ben.
Larry - lets face it, Kenny unfortunately actually did the right thing - Larry was having a heart attack and was dying already. While they were all locked in that meat locker. And Larry was a STRONG guy - and would be a strong zombie. Aside from the fact that Larry was a hateful person who did try to kill Lee in the drug store (after Lee saved Larry's life) and who did try to have Duck thrown out into the street by claiming he was bitten when he wasnt, there's the simple fact that Larry was going to die, which was going to cause all of them to be at risk of being zombie food. Sure, maybe he could have waited for him to die first, then smash his head in, but tension was high, they needed to get out of there, and he acted quickly to make the hard decision.
Arvo - the druggie who ambushed them and had his russian friends try to steal all the group's stuff and shoot them, when they had a child and a baby and the russians SAW that. And Kenny was right to want to kill Arvo, after you see what Arvo ultimately did.
Jane - The woman who tricked Clem and Kenny into thinking that she had killed the baby (and who had for a couple of days talked about how a baby would be a liability in this world, and who has a history of letting go of liabilities, like her sister and Sarah, in order to survive). Even if you assume that Jane 'accidentally got the baby killed' - from Kenny's perspective - she was sure trying to set Kenny off with the one thing she KNEW would. After you find out that the baby was actually alive, trust me - I wanted to shoot Jane myself.
Who else has Kenny tried to kill or talked about killing? He never did with Bonnie, never did with Luke (who he argued with a lot), never did with Lily (who was unhinged and he argued with a lot - and if anyone deserved to be killed, it was Lily after she killed Doug or Carlie). He definitely never did with Mike (and Kenny was shocked that Mike did what he did even). So Kenny's not some bloodthirsty animal wanting to kill people - he just is incredibly protective of the group and doesnt want to keep people around who are going to get the group killed. Kenny's main problem isnt that he's unreasonably violent (to be honest, he's quite reasonably violent, given each situation he was in) - it's that he's bullheaded and stubborn, especially when under stress - but he does pull himself together each time.
1) Her killing Dee does belong in the conversation, since it's another example of Bonnie doing something without thinking things through
2) Bonnie puts Clem in danger for things that she can do on her own. She goes out of her way to ask Clem to do things which are ill-advised. Others ask Clem to do things because there's no other choice, or it's something Clem thinks of doing on her own. Bonnie has the attention span of a gerbil.
Oh wait you mean Kenny would have murdered her for her helping Arvo, who shot Clem? Hrm... that's a possbility admittedly.
I never trusted Bonnie. Mike I didn't have an opinion on until they took every thing and there is a baby to take care of. Kenny scares everyone so it is hard for me to blame them.
This is the ZA right? If I want to survive, I can't concern myself with other people. Why would I leave any supplies behind? Its no different from Stephanie taking supplies from Roman's group or taking Arvo's meds. I'm taking that all because I'm going to need all. So Mike and Bonnie, when deciding to leave the group essentially are deciding to care for themselves hence taking all supplies.
They wanted to get away from Kenny. They still want to survive. Its a snake move to leave Clem shot and bleeding like that but what's their alternative? Stay? Nah.
I find it weird when people try to defend/blame one but not the other. Both of them seemed very OOC to me and neither of their actions made sense. Its actually kinda annoying how many ppl try to excuse Mike while at the same time outright condemning Bonnie.
I mean, to play devils advocate here, Mike was willing to drop us to our death cuz he didnt want to get caught helping us escape (I know its not a canon death but its Clems actions that prevent it, Mikes stay the same). So making dumb, uncaring decisions that get little girls killed is not exactly unprecedented. And Bonnie made the right decision when she stood up to Carver and saved Kenny, AND when she helped the group escape. She also seemed genuinely sorry for Walters and Reggies deaths. Bonnie also seemed to really care about both Clem and AJ, more then Mike imo, so her leaving them to die seems more OOC then her being a "disgusting human being".
I admit that I never played the 400 DLC, so maybe your biased is due to what happened there? Either way, I think saving Arvo, at the expense of both Clem and AJ (and Jane) makes no sense no matter what way you look at it, for either character.
Hrm. Mike never was willing to do that in my playthrough.
And Bonnie is a lot of lip service. When it come sto actually putting the childrens' needs before her own, she chooses herself every time. I just know more about Bonnie's history than Mike's, and Bonnie's history is not a great one, whereas with Mike, I just know a couple of days of him - during which he seemed to be a lot more 'thinking of others before himself' - at the museum, helping Kenny hold off the walkers, etc. Even in the scene where Arvo shoots Clem, he probably would have let Clem come if Arvo hadnt shot her Then him leaving was all out of fear, because he knew if he stayed, Kenny (AND probably Jane as well) would have killed him for letting Arvo go, which caused Clem to get shot.
Bonnie has a history of siding with the wrong side. IF none of hte others from 400 days go with Tavia, Bonnie still goes no matter what. She's 'bad choice bonnie.'
I didnt say that either of them siding with Arvo made sense - I just think Bonnie's choosing to escape with Arvo (and steal the supplies) makes more sense than Mike doing the same thing does (even if he is sweet on Bonnie).
Yes he was. Its in everyones playthrough. Just cuz you grabbed the ladder in time doesnt change the fact that if you take too long he will drop you and you die.
Is that when someone's coming in and he has to grab the ladder to prevent the guards from seeing that Clem is 'escaping'?
I think you're making a real stretch of having Mike be 'willing to let us drop to our death' there. If he doesnt remove the ladder and hope that Clem will have grabbed the ladder, Clem will probably be shot for trying to escape.
I believed it, Bonnie always looks for the easy way out and Mike was shifty throughout all of Ep.5
Im only disappointed that there wasnt a shoot Arvo option, they could have easily written it so Mike would shoot her instead
it'd be really random if bonnie came back and she was pregnant...
Clementine is 11.