The only way Jane WOULDN'T have been classed as a victim of murder is if Kenny were acting in self defense.
Which is not the case because he is the one who INITIATED the conflict (already with intent to murder) and he had her SUBDUED when he killed her.
I did not say that, I stated what I viewed myself to be because I'm used to being accused of it as if it's a wrong thing; is that not the polite thing to do?
It's ridiculous really.
You try to look at a situation objectively, without giving preference to either character, and the first reply you get is "AS A KENNY LOYALIST" ...ugh
The only way Jane WOULDN'T have been classed as a victim of murder is if Kenny were acting in self defense.
Which is not the case because h… moree is the one who INITIATED the conflict (already with intent to murder) and he had her SUBDUED when he killed her.
If that is not murder I do not know what is.
Biased?? In Jane's favour? LOL!!!!!!!
At the time the conflict arised, I liked bother characters equally.
After finding out Jane lied to me and manipulated me, she lost SOOO many points, Kenny in my opinion is a much more selfless and sane person.
If I were to be biased based on my feelings toward a certain character I would be biased towards Kenny, not Jane.
Biased?? In Jane's favour? LOL!!!!!!!
At the time the conflict arised, I liked bother characters equally.
After finding out Jane lied to m… moree and manipulated me, she lost SOOO many points, Kenny in my opinion is a much more selfless and sane person.
If I were to be biased based on my feelings toward a certain character I would be biased towards Kenny, not Jane.
If this altercation took place modern day with no zombie outbreak, at the time that you have the option to shoot Kenny or look away, if you look away Kenny would be convicted of murder. If you shoot Kenny, even if Clem was an adult, if there were people watching she would not be convicted of murder. She would be seen as a person that saved somebody else's life.
People that shoot Kenny are coming from that kind of thinking (most anyway). For me, I didn't want Kenny dead, but I couldn't sit by and watch him murder somebody.
Should I ask the mods to close this? I wanted this thread to be non-argumentative, but such is not the case. This is my first thread, so I don't have experience with this kind of thing.
No... no he didn't.
If this altercation took place modern day with no zombie outbreak, at the time that you have the option to shoot Kenn… morey or look away, if you look away Kenny would be convicted of murder. If you shoot Kenny, even if Clem was an adult, if there were people watching she would not be convicted of murder. She would be seen as a person that saved somebody else's life.
People that shoot Kenny are coming from that kind of thinking (most anyway). For me, I didn't want Kenny dead, but I couldn't sit by and watch him murder somebody.
Up to you, I think the only advice to take from it is that if you ever mention Jane and Kenny in the same thread, or the ending, a argument is going to break out
Should I ask the mods to close this? I wanted this thread to be non-argumentative, but such is not the case. This is my first thread, so I don't have experience with this kind of thing.
That does explain the misunderstanding we've been having lol.
I don't think you're being completely honest with yourself when you say they were morally equal decisions though. Being an accomplice to murder and preventing a murder. Objectively speaking those are the two situations, and one is clearly morally right while the other is clearly morally wrong.
I get where you're coming from, because you like Kenny and dislike Jane, so you feel it's justified to let him kill Jane. But morally speaking, it's not. I do honestly get where you're coming from though, because we are all human. When Kenny murdered Carver, I did not mind. It was just as much murder and just as morally wrong as when he murdered Jane, but I hated Carver, and felt he deserved it. You probably "felt Jane deserved it" just like I "felt Carver deserved it" so you don't see how bad it actually was. Murder is still murder though..
I'm trying to say that I view both choices as morally equal.
I seem to have been stumbling around a bit in the definitions, and I don't k… morenow if this is a language barrier (English is my fourth language) but I've always been told that murder is = killing, unlawful or not.
I looked up the definition on a online site in English and it seems you are right about it. I'll not edit my earlier posts though, since i learned something today. My language has two words with different definitions that both translate into "murder" you see.
I might require some more time to think about my position in this argument, but I'd like you you can further explain your view on the situation for me so I can understand it better.
And Hi zykelator, I have no wish to entertain you right now.
I've been on these forums for about a year now. But there wasn't as my arguments about this kind of stuff, well aside from the whole Kenny vs Lily thing. I think its just sad how much these arguments happen as of lately, and how long they last is just unbelievable.
I've been on these forums for about a year now. But there wasn't as my arguments about this kind of stuff, well aside from the whole Kenny v… mores Lily thing. I think its just sad how much these arguments happen as of lately, and how long they last is just unbelievable.
A wise man once said: “You didn't have a choice. You think you do, when you look back on it. But in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice.”
Hi again, thanks for understanding, let me try to explain my take on Jane and Kenny here.
No I do not think Jane deserved to die, I think she deserved a lesson - a small beating or being left behind, something along those lines - but if I could have spared them both I would have. As I saw the situation it was two people trying to kill each other and rather than letting Clementine choose which one to die I never picked up the gun, as I imagined the scene playing out in Clementine's head it was a completely alien thought to shoot a friend so it never crossed her mind at all.
Such as I experienced it afterwards; I feel like Kenny was wrong to kill her, and I told him so, but I did not regret not killing him.
That does explain the misunderstanding we've been having lol.
I don't think you're being completely honest with yourself when you say the… morey were morally equal decisions though. Being an accomplice to murder and preventing a murder. Objectively speaking those are the two situations, and one is clearly morally right while the other is clearly morally wrong.
I get where you're coming from, because you like Kenny and dislike Jane, so you feel it's justified to let him kill Jane. But morally speaking, it's not. I do honestly get where you're coming from though, because we are all human. When Kenny murdered Carver, I did not mind. It was just as much murder and just as morally wrong as when he murdered Jane, but I hated Carver, and felt he deserved it. You probably "felt Jane deserved it" just like I "felt Carver deserved it" so you don't see how bad it actually was. Murder is still murder though..
I understand where you're coming from but I will explain why I personally didn't see it that way.
Kenny had Jane subdued. He was a large man, and she was a thin woman. He had her pinned down. At that very moment it was no longer a fight, since he had her in submission. He could have just given her a few good punches like he did Arvo until she was knocked out. She no longer posed a threat. But he chose to kill her, he wanted her dead.
It's like if you get in a bar fight. Even if the person has said he wants to kill you, once you have that person disarmed and subdued, you cannot just go ahead and kill that person. You will be charged as a murderer and you will go to jail for a long, long time. Or if a burglar walks into your home. Once you have disarmed and subdued that burglar, you cannot just go ahead and kill him, since that will still be murder and you will likewise do lots of jail time for it.
Hi again, thanks for understanding, let me try to explain my take on Jane and Kenny here.
No I do not think Jane deserved to die, I think… more she deserved a lesson - a small beating or being left behind, something along those lines - but if I could have spared them both I would have. As I saw the situation it was two people trying to kill each other and rather than letting Clementine choose which one to die I never picked up the gun, as I imagined the scene playing out in Clementine's head it was a completely alien thought to shoot a friend so it never crossed her mind at all.
Such as I experienced it afterwards; I feel like Kenny was wrong to kill her, and I told him so, but I did not regret not killing him.
Well, I can't say that you are wrong, but at that point Jane has already cut Kenny across the stomach and voiced her intent to kill him openly so I don't really blame him for finishing the fight, even if i wish it had ended without murder.
Killing her was wrong, but I don't blame Kenny for it in the given situation. I can't say I for sure would have done differently, but I suppose we will never know that - hopefully :O
I understand where you're coming from but I will explain why I personally didn't see it that way.
Kenny had Jane subdued. He was a large … moreman, and she was a thin woman. He had her pinned down. At that very moment it was no longer a fight, since he had her in submission. He could have just given her a few good punches like he did Arvo until she was knocked out. She no longer posed a threat. But he chose to kill her, he wanted her dead.
It's like if you get in a bar fight. Even if the person has said he wants to kill you, once you have that person disarmed and subdued, you cannot just go ahead and kill that person. You will be charged as a murderer and you will go to jail for a long, long time. Or if a burglar walks into your home. Once you have disarmed and subdued that burglar, you cannot just go ahead and kill him, since that will still be murder and you will likewise do lots of jail time for it.
The thing is killing her was something Kenny wanted since the start of the fight, he didn't even let Jane explain herself, he just wanted her dead. And even after he kills her he doesn't regret it one bit. If Clem says "You didn't have to kill her, Kenny!" he replies "I did.. I really did" (not word for word, but I'm sure it was along those lines)...
Kenny had become a killer. This was his way of dealing with things now.. first he killed Carver, now he killed Jane. That's not someone Clem should be around.. he says so himself.
Not to say Jane didn't have faults too. She was a complete psychopath. Both characters are seriously flawed come the end of the game. This is why they generate so much debate and this is why the game deliberately left you with the option to be on your own at the end of the game. Which, honestly, I would have taken, had it not left me with a feeling that Clem would have a harder time surviving like this..
Well, I can't say that you are wrong, but at that point Jane has already cut Kenny across the stomach and voiced her intent to kill him open… morely so I don't really blame him for finishing the fight, even if i wish it had ended without murder.
Killing her was wrong, but I don't blame Kenny for it in the given situation. I can't say I for sure would have done differently, but I suppose we will never know that - hopefully :O
We can't know that, he doesn't voice his intent at killing her until they lie on the ground together, any claim his intention was to kill her prior to that will remain guesswork and assumptions. And no he does not regret killing her just after the act is done, but when you find AJ he will say "it was me or her Clem, she was trying to kill me too." implying he didn't wish for her death until after she tried taking his life herself.
Obviously you could call it an excuse but I suppose we won't ever know if it was for sure either. In the end Kenny says he didn't want her death to happen either and that she could have stopped it by saying AJ was fine. If this is true we'll not know either, personally I doubt Kenny would have beleived her even if she did tell him, but I guess that will remain unknown.
The thing is killing her was something Kenny wanted since the start of the fight, he didn't even let Jane explain herself, he just wanted he… morer dead. And even after he kills her he doesn't regret it one bit. If Clem says "You didn't have to kill her, Kenny!" he replies "I did.. I really did" (not word for word, but I'm sure it was along those lines)...
Kenny had become a killer. This was his way of dealing with things now.. first he killed Carver, now he killed Jane. That's not someone Clem should be around.. he says so himself.
Not to say Jane didn't have faults too. She was a complete psychopath. Both characters are seriously flawed come the end of the game. This is why they generate so much debate and this is why the game deliberately left you with the option to be on your own at the end of the game. Which, honestly, I would have taken, had it not left me with a feeling that Clem would have a harder time surviving like this..
Wait why is it up for discussion that if Clem is safe with Kenny? Of course she is. Kenny loves clem and NJ and considered them family when Jane was talking shit. He lost an eye because of Clem and would kill a bitch coughjanecough if they hurt clem. I bet if he had a gun with him with the mike/arvo/bonnie incident he'd kill them all.
Kenny cares about clem more than Jane obviously, idk why it's up for discussion if she's safe with him.
shit I wouldn't be surprised if Jane ended up finding a bf and leaving clem for him. Or if she ends up leaving because of Nick jr. That bitch is selfish.
Edit: My comment isn't towards you 1992, it's towards people who are saying this. I just wanted to add on lol.
Let me set things straight, I like Jane OK
Now we've cleared that up I'll get to my point. Clem has more chance of survival with Kenny (… morewhether you like him or not) than being by herself. The apocalypse is harsh for anyone let alone a young girl, even if she has proven herself a capable survivor. Kenny is a good man at heart with a hot temper. But he cares for Clem just as Jane clearly cared for her as well.
I'm not condoning Kenny's actions in the slightest. But Clem has to do what's best for her. And that is any thing but being alone with a baby in a world where crying sounds attract bad attention. Mainly the type that results in getting chomped on by a walker.
Wait why is it up for discussion that if Clem is safe with Kenny? Of course she is. Kenny loves clem and NJ and considered them family when … moreJane was talking shit. He lost an eye because of Clem and would kill a bitch cough jane cough if they hurt clem. I bet if he had a gun with him with the mike/arvo/bonnie incident he'd kill them all.
Kenny cares about clem more than Jane obviously, idk why it's up for discussion if she's safe with him.
shit I wouldn't be surprised if Jane ended up finding a bf and leaving clem for him. Or if she ends up leaving because of Nick jr. That bitch is selfish.
Edit: My comment isn't towards you 1992, it's towards people who are saying this. I just wanted to add on lol.
Well Kenny does say atleast 2 threats before that. But we can only speculate if it was just random taunts in middle of fight or if he actually meant it.
When Kenny is at ground the first time and Jane is trying to punch him, Kenny says "you are fucking dead"
After they go outside and Kenny knocks her down he says "i'll fucking kill you"
After the knife is on top of her chest "i'll fucking kill you"
Soon he says "i aint gonna let you... (live)"
All 4 threats come no matter what you choose in the game.
We can't know that, he doesn't voice his intent at killing her until they lie on the ground together, any claim his intention was to kill he… morer prior to that will remain guesswork and assumptions. And no he does not regret killing her just after the act is done, but when you find AJ he will say "it was me or her Clem, she was trying to kill me too." implying he didn't wish for her death until after she tried taking his life herself.
Obviously you could call it an excuse but I suppose we won't ever know if it was for sure either. In the end Kenny says he didn't want her death to happen either and that she could have stopped it by saying AJ was fine. If this is true we'll not know either, personally I doubt Kenny would have beleived her even if she did tell him, but I guess that will remain unknown.
She was ready to steal supplies for the group, very much like Kenny did in season 1.
If you steal from them, they will retaliate the robb… moreery by trying to rob you. If you choose to let him go with everything, he will blame you for stealing the medicine he himself stole from his group. Its deteriminant.
ps. Aj was safer inside the car than outside.
Well Kenny does say atleast 2 threats before that. But we can only speculate if it was just random taunts in middle of fight or if he actual… morely meant it.
* When Kenny is at ground the first time and Jane is trying to punch him, Kenny says "you are fucking dead"
* After they go outside and Kenny knocks her down he says "i'll fucking kill you"
* After the knife is on top of her chest "i'll fucking kill you"
* Soon he says "i aint gonna let you... (live)"
All 4 threats come no matter what you choose in the game.
Yet another argument has started again.
Why can we all not admit theres no right ending, it depends on what the player wants for Clementine, Jane and Kenny.
Personally I cried a little bit when I realized the writers had railroaded my Clem into getting saddled with some baby. If Clementine got caught in a firefight and could choose between taking cover or saving a baby, I would make her take cover.
Personally I cried a little bit when I realized the writers had railroaded my Clem into getting saddled with some baby. If Clementine got ca… moreught in a firefight and could choose between taking cover or saving a baby, I would make her take cover.
And I did.
But here we are.
It's not fair.
Up to you, I think the only advice to take from it is that if you ever mention Jane and Kenny in the same thread, or the ending, a argument is going to break out
Yet another argument has started again.
Why can we all not admit theres no right ending, it depends on what the player wants for Clementine, Jane and Kenny.
Comments
The only way Jane WOULDN'T have been classed as a victim of murder is if Kenny were acting in self defense.
Which is not the case because he is the one who INITIATED the conflict (already with intent to murder) and he had her SUBDUED when he killed her.
If that is not murder I do not know what is.
How long have you be on these forums? Everybody goes into 'a all out war' for everything.
I did not say that, I stated what I viewed myself to be because I'm used to being accused of it as if it's a wrong thing; is that not the polite thing to do?
And she is the one who took out her knife and nearly spilled his guts.
Also:
Biased?? In Jane's favour? LOL!!!!!!!
At the time the conflict arised, I liked bother characters equally.
After finding out Jane lied to me and manipulated me, she lost SOOO many points, Kenny in my opinion is a much more selfless and sane person.
If I were to be biased based on my feelings toward a certain character I would be biased towards Kenny, not Jane.
You are saying that what Kenny did was unlawful.
You are ignoring that what Jane did was also unlawful.
No... no he didn't.
If this altercation took place modern day with no zombie outbreak, at the time that you have the option to shoot Kenny or look away, if you look away Kenny would be convicted of murder. If you shoot Kenny, even if Clem was an adult, if there were people watching she would not be convicted of murder. She would be seen as a person that saved somebody else's life.
People that shoot Kenny are coming from that kind of thinking (most anyway). For me, I didn't want Kenny dead, but I couldn't sit by and watch him murder somebody.
Should I ask the mods to close this? I wanted this thread to be non-argumentative, but such is not the case. This is my first thread, so I don't have experience with this kind of thing.
Finally someone with common sense.
Up to you, I think the only advice to take from it is that if you ever mention Jane and Kenny in the same thread, or the ending, a argument is going to break out
That does explain the misunderstanding we've been having lol.
I don't think you're being completely honest with yourself when you say they were morally equal decisions though. Being an accomplice to murder and preventing a murder. Objectively speaking those are the two situations, and one is clearly morally right while the other is clearly morally wrong.
I get where you're coming from, because you like Kenny and dislike Jane, so you feel it's justified to let him kill Jane. But morally speaking, it's not. I do honestly get where you're coming from though, because we are all human. When Kenny murdered Carver, I did not mind. It was just as much murder and just as morally wrong as when he murdered Jane, but I hated Carver, and felt he deserved it. You probably "felt Jane deserved it" just like I "felt Carver deserved it" so you don't see how bad it actually was. Murder is still murder though..
I've been on these forums for about a year now. But there wasn't as my arguments about this kind of stuff, well aside from the whole Kenny vs Lily thing. I think its just sad how much these arguments happen as of lately, and how long they last is just unbelievable.
You've been here for a year and only 34 comments? Thats funny. 678 comments in 10 days for me
.
Yeah I pretty much just lurked around the site for a while. Like last week I started becoming more active. 678 comments in ten days? Really?
I have some free time.
Lucky you.
That reminds me of Max Payne.
Hi again, thanks for understanding, let me try to explain my take on Jane and Kenny here.
No I do not think Jane deserved to die, I think she deserved a lesson - a small beating or being left behind, something along those lines - but if I could have spared them both I would have. As I saw the situation it was two people trying to kill each other and rather than letting Clementine choose which one to die I never picked up the gun, as I imagined the scene playing out in Clementine's head it was a completely alien thought to shoot a friend so it never crossed her mind at all.
Such as I experienced it afterwards; I feel like Kenny was wrong to kill her, and I told him so, but I did not regret not killing him.
I understand where you're coming from but I will explain why I personally didn't see it that way.
Kenny had Jane subdued. He was a large man, and she was a thin woman. He had her pinned down. At that very moment it was no longer a fight, since he had her in submission. He could have just given her a few good punches like he did Arvo until she was knocked out. She no longer posed a threat. But he chose to kill her, he wanted her dead.
It's like if you get in a bar fight. Even if the person has said he wants to kill you, once you have that person disarmed and subdued, you cannot just go ahead and kill that person. You will be charged as a murderer and you will go to jail for a long, long time. Or if a burglar walks into your home. Once you have disarmed and subdued that burglar, you cannot just go ahead and kill him, since that will still be murder and you will likewise do lots of jail time for it.
Well, I can't say that you are wrong, but at that point Jane has already cut Kenny across the stomach and voiced her intent to kill him openly so I don't really blame him for finishing the fight, even if i wish it had ended without murder.
Killing her was wrong, but I don't blame Kenny for it in the given situation. I can't say I for sure would have done differently, but I suppose we will never know that - hopefully :O
The thing is killing her was something Kenny wanted since the start of the fight, he didn't even let Jane explain herself, he just wanted her dead. And even after he kills her he doesn't regret it one bit. If Clem says "You didn't have to kill her, Kenny!" he replies "I did.. I really did" (not word for word, but I'm sure it was along those lines)...
Kenny had become a killer. This was his way of dealing with things now.. first he killed Carver, now he killed Jane. That's not someone Clem should be around.. he says so himself.
Not to say Jane didn't have faults too. She was a complete psychopath. Both characters are seriously flawed come the end of the game. This is why they generate so much debate and this is why the game deliberately left you with the option to be on your own at the end of the game. Which, honestly, I would have taken, had it not left me with a feeling that Clem would have a harder time surviving like this..
We can't know that, he doesn't voice his intent at killing her until they lie on the ground together, any claim his intention was to kill her prior to that will remain guesswork and assumptions. And no he does not regret killing her just after the act is done, but when you find AJ he will say "it was me or her Clem, she was trying to kill me too." implying he didn't wish for her death until after she tried taking his life herself.
Obviously you could call it an excuse but I suppose we won't ever know if it was for sure either. In the end Kenny says he didn't want her death to happen either and that she could have stopped it by saying AJ was fine. If this is true we'll not know either, personally I doubt Kenny would have beleived her even if she did tell him, but I guess that will remain unknown.
Wait why is it up for discussion that if Clem is safe with Kenny? Of course she is. Kenny loves clem and NJ and considered them family when Jane was talking shit. He lost an eye because of Clem and would kill a bitch cough jane cough if they hurt clem. I bet if he had a gun with him with the mike/arvo/bonnie incident he'd kill them all.
Kenny cares about clem more than Jane obviously, idk why it's up for discussion if she's safe with him.
shit I wouldn't be surprised if Jane ended up finding a bf and leaving clem for him. Or if she ends up leaving because of Nick jr. That bitch is selfish.
Edit: My comment isn't towards you 1992, it's towards people who are saying this. I just wanted to add on lol.
I think his name is AJ actually.
Kenny might love New Jersey though..
You can call him "AJ" i really don't care. But he's my baby and I'm calling him Nick jr.
Sadly we didnt get to choose the name
if we did i wouldve named him Nick 2.0.
Yet another argument has started again.
Why can we all not admit theres no right ending, it depends on what the player wants for Clementine, Jane and Kenny.
Well Kenny does say atleast 2 threats before that. But we can only speculate if it was just random taunts in middle of fight or if he actually meant it.
All 4 threats come no matter what you choose in the game.
Yeah, a little baby on his own in a freezing car is so much safer. God, you don't even try anymore.
You don't have to be killed to die, I'm sure he meant her diabetes
WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST ADMIT THAT NICK WAS THE BEST CHARACTER.
Because clearly Pete was best bruh.
Bruh you're wrong bruh. Bruh, do you even know where the fuckin river is?
Pete knows where it is, HE TAUGHT NICK THE LOCATION OF THE FUCKIN RIVER BRUH!
I wonder why you always reply to me, i really don't like you and your replies are bait to me anyways.
Personally I cried a little bit when I realized the writers had railroaded my Clem into getting saddled with some baby. If Clementine got caught in a firefight and could choose between taking cover or saving a baby, I would make her take cover.
And I did.
But here we are.
It's not fair.
It isn't within Clementine's character to just leave a baby behind, you can't really expect Telltale to allow Clementine to do that.
Its coming down.
Why did this insanity have to come to my thread? Why?