In Harm's Way Defense Masterpost
Fair disclaimer: Long ass post ahead.
Note - For me, Episode 3 was the best of Season 2. I know many of you think exactly the opposite, so I decided to write up this (and I've included pictures, yay). After the success of Season Finale Thread, I think some of you will find time to read the whole thing. good luck though
Thesis ready to refutation:
1. Episode 3 had bad writing.
2. Episode 3 was undeveloped (interaction with characters and environment) and dullish.
3. Carver's potential was wasted - his character got changed off-screen and was killed off too early.
Let's start with a quick reminder about how the episode was played out, included all important moments you should remember.
Carver slaps Clementine (determinant)
Carlos slaps Sarah.
Reggie's death.
Carver's ideology - survival of the fittest.
Kenny gets beaten down.
Kenny kills Carver. The episode ends among the walkers.
1. Episode 3 had bad writing.
WHAT MAKES EPISODE BETTER THAN YOU THOUGHT via THINGS YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T NOTICE/THINK OF:
A. Season 1 Flashbacks:
"Reminds me of the jewelry store."
Kenny will say he knew someone who cut his arm off if Lee did it in No Time Left.
Clementine can tell about Molly and how Lee used walker's gut to escape from Marsh House.
A tape from Crawford is in Caver's office.
Clem's hatchet is very similar to the one Lee lost in Crawford.
Two last ones could be combined to make a short theory about Crawford. Carver somehow visited this place and managed to get a video tape and the hatchet Lee lost, which Luke gives to Clementine later on. Maybe Carver was part of Crawford's community, we don't know that.
B. Realistic Elements:
- The Adults Are Talking via People actually talking to each other, without the little girl forcing all the conversations.
Reggie and Kenny; Carver and Sarah; Carver and Rebecca; Group Conversation; Nobody asks Clem what she thinks, cough she's not Lee cough. The conversation will go on even if she stays silent.
2. Episode 3 was undeveloped (interaction with characters and surroundings) and dullish.
The group was taken and locked out in the pen, which is an area where those who break Carver's rules are sent to earn their way back. How much stuff could you do in prison-like place? We were supposed to feel restrained, to appreciate every moment spent outside and every single little conversation.
Great Character Development/Changes That Have Had Occurred
REGGIE:
Most underestimated character in the whole Season/s. A hesitant maimed person who tries to hide his fears. He then explains that he lost his arm because a walker bit him while working on the wall and his arm was quickly taken off by Mike, however Mike never confirmed he did it. Anyway, he could have lost his arm due to a punishment.
What did they do to you?
It could've been worse, trust me.
Do you trust him?
I don't know. He's nice, if that's what you mean.
It's not.
Oh. Then, I don't know.
Bill said he'll let me rejoin the group when you'd be caught, so I'm glad you're here. I'm just joking. I mean, he did say that.
BONNIE:
Three words - great character development.
Again, the majority of people was hella suprised how Bonnie acted in No Going Back. Here's the reason why - TellTale wanted us to like her. She repeatedly tries to apologize to Clementine for lying to her at the lodge and causing people to be killed. Details are the key here - she helped Clementine if she is hit by Carver or Troy, she was worried about Luke, stopped Carver from beating down Kenny, she also was looking after Rebecca during her pregnancy. I'm sure you noticed that every single member of Howe's community (except some of the Cabin Group) were calling Carver "Bill", so does Bonnie. After Clem told her about Luke, she called him "Carver" for the first time. She fooled many and that was pretty good writting.
CARLOS:
Most of you probably felt sorry for him, because he had to slap his own daughter. That's the reason why you didn't notice how much he changed. Back in the truck he was talking about Carver and how dangerous he was. Let us remember he got separated from the rest of the group and I'm sure Carver talked with him off-screen. See the difference?
After that, Carlos becomes more silent and uncertain, even in his own words. Don't forget he was the one who took care of Luke and Kenny when they got beaten, I'm suprised he was able to focus, considering the state he was in.
I'd say Sarah became afraid of him (duh, she didn't stop love him). Here's Rebecca hugging her instead of Carlos.
KENNY:
Yeah, everyone did see Kenny sacrificing himself to save Clem - it's not up for discussion here - but have you noticed the little things?
He didn't help Clem when walkers attacked them and he feels bad about it.
Clementine got hurt and he wasn't close enough to help her.
LUKE:
Lack of heroism was very important in Luke's appearance in Episode 3. He was tired and hungry, he got caught, he caused a lot bad things. There is humane part of Episode 3.
3. Carver's potential was wasted - his character got changed off-screen and was killed off too early.
Note: this thread is about Episode 3, not Carver, so let's get this over with.
Carver was a leader of prospering community, which was the enormous responsibility. Huge, well-fed and secured - herds came through Hardware many times before it got fatally overrun. People are respecting Carver for keeping their alive. We don't know much about his past and reasons Cabin Group used to escape - Carlos said they felt like prisoners, Bonnie mentioned Luke didn't agree with Carver's ideas - but the main background is surely Rebecca and the baby.
"This is not the same Carver we met in A House Divided!"
This is exactly the same Carver, but as the story progress, is harder to see the resemblances. Let me explain his behavior.
When he appeared, we all were under impression that Carver was smart villain who changed suddenly into a brain-washed bully.
Episode 3 went straight down and antagonized him more, he started to presenting himself as a cruel dictator whose motivations are difficult to understand. Carver was more ambiguous at the beginning, simply because he wanted to show Clementine his "brighter" shade. He shot Walter for the man he knew being killed, and tortured someone in order to find Rebecca (woman carrying the baby he was obsessed with). All of his morals could possibly be justified, and nothing is overdone here. When he slaps Clem, it was his way to learn not to talk back - it happens again with Sarah interrupting his speech. We know he sees strength in numbers, which explain why he's willing to forgive the cabin group. The problem with seeing his grey parts is his ruthlessness and brutality (enough to call him an oppressor), but still, he believes in physical punishment and he has a sense of protecting his family from weakness (which gets you killed in the world like this).
He was killed for the sake of the story. Carver (and Kenny) opened the door for Clementine and her future figure, a person she would become having Carver's ideology back at her head. She had to make a decision about who she really was, which examples will appear later on.
Carver had to be killed, same as Lee.
The only choice that matters is: Who will you become?
If I'd came up with more ideas, I might put it here. I really hope your criticism has decreased.
Thank you guys for reading!
Comments
Lee didn't have to die, neither did Carver. It doesn't make the story better that fan favorite characters are dead. That would be like if they killed off Kenny for certain, Clementine and restarted the series.
It didn't contain Nick's horrendous death, so it's already better than Amid The Ruins.
Season 2 was such a let down. Should have known as soon as Omid was killed in the first 3 minutes in the first episode.
It doesn't change the fact that Nick disappeared from the story narrative after being so important in the first 2 episodes.
Til now i really hated episode 3 but you really have some points i think i'm gonna replay it right now
What about the promise we made to uncle Pete, I guess Whatever... Such a let down. Don't get me wrong i enjoyed it but it seemed like it was a 3 hour roller coaster ride. Eventually your going to get used to being on it, and its going to feel stagnant. The best part about the whole season for me was when Everyone was around the campfire, talking.
Interesting characterization, was a good read.
By the way, everyone keeps mentioning the axe and how it might tie to Crawford. In Shel's story in 400 Days, there is an axe that is identical to Lee's. So it could make sense that Vernon's group took it and then Shel took it to Carver's camp, unfortunately that is determinant. It's obviosuly a reused model.
So one character death = worse than In harms way, I've heard some false shit in my life but if I had to choose this one takes the cake.
Make one for Episode 4.
You have a point....
There was a lot more depth to ep3 as you have quite rightly pointed out, but I also feel the whole setup of the episode lends itself to the faster pacing, it was an energetic episode and can therefore be excused for its fsster pace, but with that being said as you have pointed out we had some decent conversional moments considering the energy of the ep.....
My biggest issue with that episode was my one biggest pet hate of S2.... and that is clem being the protagonist..... she was too young imo and it was to early to have her turn protagonist, and ep3 showed this more than any other ep.... it was all clem.... everything.... All the other characters sat around on there fat arses while clem went into splinter cell mode...... clem I know your still a kid but sneak into here and get this, do this do that ..climb this fetch that... when we find luke, he doesnt ask clem to pass a message onto kenny and co, noooooo its "clem get me some walkie talkies, I know carver is a fucking maniac bjt I believe in you".... if it wasnt for clem in that ep everyone would still be clipping carvers trees.. and that was the episodes biggest problem imo, it was a game breaker all season imo, but it showed more in ep 3....
Now if we have had another protagonist then I would fully agree it was the best ep.... it would feel normal as one of the adults to be fighting our way out this place to get clem and the ktjers to safety, but clem was to young.. S3 yea.. S2 noooo..... my daughter enjoyed ep3 best although the above bothered her greatly also, but she says she enjoyed 3 the best
Why? I mean, seriously, why?
Chuck said it best.
Chuck: You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, you ain't strong or smart, you're alive.
Your points are very thoughtful and well constructed, but they do nothing to change how I feel about the episode.
Good thread, regardless. Even though I disagree, I still appreciate it when members make thoughtful topics like this.
The only reason I say that is because Nick's death has been the only thing in the entire video game series that I can complain about, everything else I've been absolutely enamored with, I loved In Harm's Way and Amid The Ruins upon their release, but I can only slightly dislike Amid The Ruins due to Nick's death, which is why I'd only rate it an 8.9/10.
Yeah Lee Everett
So you liked, Walter's death, Carlos' death, treatment of 400 days characters? I'm just saying if everyone hated Amid the ruins for Nick's death, then they should have completely despised In Harm's Way for the treatment of 400 days characters and Carlos' death, to me the hate for Amid the ruins doesn't make any sense.
So are you saying No Time Left was the worst cause Lee died?
Yeah pretty much. Whoever thought it was a good idea to kill off the main character of your TWD game, wow. The writers knew it was a horrible idea, and now we will only be with Lee in Dream Sequences. Now Kenny is dead, so i'm guessing Clementine is dead next season.
I was satisfied with Walter's death because it was a genuinely good moment (In my opinion), Carlos' death was only bad when his death contributes nothing to Sarah's development except to make her "cease to function", but before the fact it made sense and felt right, and I kind of guessed the 400 Days characters wouldn't mean much so I wasn't disappointed by their treatment. Nick's just felt out of place, as if an alien had just descended from the sky and shot one of the group members and left, it didn't make sense.
I completely disagree, I think me and many others would agree Lee's death was probably the biggest moment of season 1, it pretty much won Telltale game of the year. (Not saying season 1 was bad though, it was completely amazing)
Lee dying really introduced realism in that finale, you went for so long feeling invisible as group members died left and right that you'd never expect it to happen to Lee. At that moment it sinks in that Lee is just in fact like everyone else, vulnerable.
But I respect your opinion nevertheless.
I understand how you feel and all, but Lee did have to die simply to let Clementine's story evolve. She changed from a scared little girl to brave and mature survivor and one thing that caused it was the death of father figure she loved more than anyone else. It concluded Lee's story, ended his and started the Clementine's one.
Emotional impact doesn't = Character Death. Look at TLoU.
I disagree, I saw Nick's death coming from a mile away with how he was treated in episode 3, Carlos' death IMO was the worst this season, it had no place, also when your death happens just to create plot points for other characters (Sarah ceasing to function, and Kenny taking on the role of getting the baby out) you know that's when it's bad, Nick's was just there, making it not so bad for me. (even though I wanted it to be better I knew it wasn't gonna happen)
That's one thing I didn't like, but hey, nothing's perfect.
I saw his death coming because he was made determinant in episode 2
Telltale so predictable now.
Did you see the first scene of TLOU? Sarah's death at the beginning was just there for emotional impact.
I was referring to the ending :P I totally forgot about that part. They didn't have to kill him to have a emotional finale.
Thank you. Can you please desribe how you feel about this episode?
They didn't have to, but it served it's purpose well, and was probably the best way they could have done it.
I saw Nick's death coming too, it was just out of place and held no meaning is what I meant. It just seemed like an after thought.
Because they killed Lee off, now we are paying for it. They knew this season was going to be bad, so they thought well lets bring back Kenny and kill him off, because that worked so well the first time.
Don't forget this part!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyA7Gum3sCc
I never really understood how much ''little'' things can ruin an episode for some people.
I mean, i hated Nick's and Sarah's death just as much as anyone else, but episode 4 is one of my favorite episodes in the season.
Am i the only one that loved all the episodes? =/
None needed :P
Uhh what? What would have made this season so much better if Lee was here? Also this season wasn't bad at all, I don't see what you're trying to say.
I think you changed my mind about this one
What about a tape then?
I think that theory is good, interesting at least.
Is this a joke?
Chuck is a character within the story, and there... within that world that line holds water.... but he isnt "playing lee or CLEM as we are discussing here... that character has no knowlege that there is a person sitting behind a computer screen playing this story/game
I dont know where to start with this but here goes....
The protagonist In a computer game is the tool that you use to interact with the world its placed in, this has to be believable, especially in a story driven game like TWD... its an "interactive" story, this means the player (me/you) has to do things its the number one rule else it not a game its a movie.....
Now due to the fact the player "has to do things/interact" and we are playing the role of a junior it forces the story into looney land and therefore makes the story more hard to believe which kills emersion and takes the player out of the story which in turn kills the whole idea and goal of a game such as this....
Here are just a few examples for ya...
A young girl is found in the woods close to passing out with her arm shredded with a dog bite... BUT.. next day 2 grown men, one of which we are suposed to regard as a wise protective done it all type of guy think its a good idea to take her on a mission Into to the forest... believable???? No but it had to happen becuase that little girl is the protagonist and YOU need to be part of the story...
The group are scouting a bridge, out of all the people there who would you give the scouting duties to (looking through the binoculars) one of the many adults whk have know each other for ages or a little girl you just picked up? Believable? No but the player (you) need to interact so tough....
The group needs to cross a bridge that is falling to bits and we have no idea whats on the other side, who do you take, one of the adults you know well or some kid you just met and dropped on the floor less than 24 hours ago and didnt trust to tell you weather she was biten or not........ believable....... NO..... but tough your playing kid so get used to it....
After crossing the bridge, its brought to your attention that a pregnant women is getting very weak due to lack of food, but who should go into this unchecked building to find this food? One of the adults? Nooooooo send the kid in while alvin sits on his ass and the others chat about times gone bye..... because you the player are playing a kid.....
A wind turbine is racing out of control and attracting walkers from miles around, putting the very existence of your group in danger..... in who's hands do you leave shutting down this turbine? An adult maybe? Maybe someone who has a hint of electrical/mechanical knowledge? No .......a kid you just met because guess what.........You.... the most important person the "player" are playing a kid... so tough shit deal with it
Carvers camp... a complete nutta... who shall we send on these mission to fetch this and that and set this up and do that? Mike? Naaaaa... kenny? Naaaaaaa......... ohhh I just remebered the player (you) is playing a kid so lets make it that an adult carnt do shit because there to heavy/big/phat ass/ugly/mentally unstable to do anything.....
Ohhhh god walkers are climbing up onto the deck, who shall we get to smash a large metal fixing bracket off the wall to collapse the deck?.... an agile adult maybe? A strong male with the swing to break free a bracket that was designed to hold thousands of lbs of weight? Naaaaaaa SUPER CLEM TO RESCUE!!!!!! Because guess what you the "player" are this clem person and therefor need to be involved in the action!!!...
If the game (S2) was a movie... ya know full on movie... popcorn all that..... do you think clem would have been writen Into the story like we got in the game.....?
Or if lee was still alive do you think clem would have done a micro dot of what she has this season? No... because this season the whole story had to have clem as the playable character doing all tne action stuff and interactions...
Now if we would have been playing another protagonist of the adult variety, none of the above would have caused a raised eyebrow, but as we are forced to play a kid and do these interactions it stops you in your tracks and makes you think......... "This isnt right" .........once this happens your mind is removed from the game and your no longer emersed in tbe story...... which means your just pressing buttons when a colorful button appears on your screen ..... which equals ... the game has failed in its objective........ to tell a believable story....
Im sorry if ive droned on a tad....... but tbh thats how ive felt all S2....