Bad Endings are Perfectly Valid.
[Mod edit: In order to ensure civil discussion regarding the Pizza/Ice Cream choice, I have created a Civil Character Discussion Megethread. In order to ensure there is no drama, I am locking all other threads about the choice - old and new alike. Please keep discussion in the Civil Character Discussion Megathread. Thanks! - Blind Sniper]
There's been a fair degree of derision heaped upon the "bad endings" where Clem heads off alone or goes back to Howe's with Jane.
On the one hand the impulse for this ridicule is understandable: On just about every single front the ramifications for Clementine and the story are incredibly dire, both in their thematic resonance and in their practical considerations.
The "Alone" ending has Clem on the path to becoming something as wretched, broken and emotionally tortured as Jane, forever terrified of emotional connections and doomed to a life masquerading so efficiently as the walking dead that she becomes indistinguishable from them in body and spirit. She returns to the same imperiled scenario of the first episode of this season before being rescued by the cabin group, only this time incapable of trust, out of tears, and without salvation. The final image an unfocused dutch-angle shot of Clementine's back as she walks, in a daze, through the chorus of living death. Soulless, unbalanced, empty.
As horrifying as all that is, the Howe's Endings are arguably even less auspicious. The red herring of Kenny's transformation into Carver is shown to be a clever misdirect: Clementine herself takes up that mantle. In excusing Jane's deception Clementine internalizes the essence of Carver's worldview where one takes it upon themselves to decide who lives and who dies for the benefit of a nebulous "greater good". This reversal is reinforced by their return to Howe's to rule over it as Carver once did, even gazing upon his corpse as they usurp the bloody throne, the work and sacrifice done to escape his terrible prison undone as they now willfully imprison themselves amidst the bloody aisles of this cursed, miserable fortress.
The only choice left for Clementine is whether or not to accept the responsibility and consequence of the dark path she has already begun to trod. In this sense turning the family away, internalizing Carver's ethos as fully as she inherits his kingdom, is unfortunately the optimal decision. Clem even goes so far in this instance to warp and distort Lee's teachings, using his words to justify sentencing a man, woman and child to death. One can only imagine the deep personal shame Lee would feel seeing the once sweet and kind Clementine become this cold-blooded Crawford-like authoritarian in training.
Letting the family in, however, would be the third determinant act that cements Clementine as a serial victim. First a victim of Jane's manipulation into killing her only true protector and provider, secondly a victim of circumstance where she accepts Jane's deception and her own role as someone it's acceptable to abuse through lies and manipulation for the sake of "safety", and thirdly a victim of her own guilt and desperation for some form of ethereal, unattainable forgiveness. As Jane deceived Clementine, so too may the family deservedly deceive them both. Life must be spent forever in fear and distrust, the glimpse of a gun or a seemingly "innocent" comment of "Nice Hat" forever processed through the lens of suspicion, emphasized with the discordant minor chords of the extra-diagetic music. Indeed this Clementine has learned nothing from back when she was in that bathroom in the prologue, a victim of letting her guard down to the thief who wanted to steal her hat and did steal Omid's life. This Clementine more than any is doomed to being exploited, tortured, broken, humiliated, and abused.
But I ask you, in the greater scheme of telling a story, what wrong with any of this?
Plenty of films have tragic, downer endings. What would Chinatown, King Kong, Requiem for a Dream, John Carpenter's The Thing or many, many other films be without their bummer endings?
It's not dissimilar in games either. Silent Hill had bad, bad+, good, good+ endings. What's wrong with that? They're all valid.
Likewise the validity of these terrible, tragic, downer endings is in fine standing. In fact their existence only heightens the reward for those who remain with Kenny and get to chose between his two endings. The choice there is a beautiful one, ennobling, cathartic, deeply satisfying. In these endings Clementine gets the experience of witnessing true, selfless devotion and the knowledge that it can still exist in the world. She can hold on to hope, to trust, be able to love and be loved, to feel, to be able to smile and cry, even all at once, to accept true sacrifice and be thankful or to sacrifice right back in equal measure as a healed and complete human being.
I wouldn't trade the importance and majesty of such endings for anything.
But if someone wants a depressing ending instead, who am I to judge?
Comments
*goes into thread. *Sees it was made by @Lemoncakes. *leaves thread
Your title is a paradox.
For what it's worth, I don't see Clementine's rejection of two abusive lunatics as a loss of humanity. She doesn't need to be pulled down by horrible people when genuinely kind people deserve her compassion. If she had the option of remaining with good people like Luke and Sarah, she'd join them in a heartbeat.
And the ending where she forgives Jane and allows the family in? That's damn hopeful. It's the only chance Clementine has of building a community on her own terms, and forging connections with a boy her age. The fact that so many people ignore the fact that Clementine has not met any child her age speaks to ignorance on their part.
And I'll use your deceptive rhetoric to point out a simple fact: the ending where Clementine remains with Kenny is possibly the bleakest. She has succumbed to an emotionally and physically abusive man, willing to stick with him no matter how low he'll go. She does not deserve to be weighed down, but since so many people value a man's feelings over hers they feel obligated to care about him more than they do for a little girl's safety.
I think I actually became dumber by reading this. Anyone else?
i became dumber than Kanye West after reading this
Nah you're still the same.
telltalemaster, I thought you left the thread!
Welcome back!
real funny. your comment has that taste of hate, which your comments always leaves
dear god
I pointed to textual evidence, recurring themes and reasoned arguments.
You didn't.
You also don't either don't know what a paradox is, are confused about the concept of "validity" or are focusing on a narrow self-serving definition of "bad" that clearly doesn't fit its intended application.
I would appreciate it if you tried to take this important thread a little more seriously.
Can't wait for this one...
Oh this is just getting ridiculous.
It is just as arguable that depressing endings fit the story more than cheesy happy ones because that's the nature of the walking dead.
But as you're Lemoncakes, I simply echo the statement of my buddy telltalemaster.
goes into thread, sees was made by lemoncakes, exits thread
thanks m8. I'm sorry that we argued so much when you were around, I should had been grateful for all the things you do for this Forum. After you were gone i had to fight myself. So thanks for coming back in this time of need
You're exactly right.
As I said, some people might prefer downer endings.
Which is what both Jane endings and the Alone ending clearly are.
And that's fine.
It's a perfectly valid choice.
FUCK I KEEP CLICKING THE UPVOTE BUTTON AND THE NUMBER WON'T GET ANY HIGHER AHHHHHHHHHH
Agree with OP. You puted your finger on the crux.
"Letting the family in, however, would be the third determinant act that cements Clementine as a serial victim. First a victim of Jane's manipulation into killing her only true protector and provider, secondly a victim of circumstance where she accepts Jane's deception and her own role as someone it's acceptable to abuse through lies and manipulation for the sake of "safety", and thirdly a victim of her own guilt and desperation for some form of ethereal, unattainable forgiveness. As Jane deceived Clementine, so too may the family deservedly deceive them both"
you don't make Jane or the other endings sound so good. Gee i wonder why
Thank you.
I'm more than happy to puted my finger on any crux, Mr. Asscrack.
Your welcome , Mr.Lemoncakes
*your welcome, Mr. disturber-of-the-peace
All this to say "My ending was the best ending"?
But you aren't just talking about positivity or negativity, you're talking about quality.
You like the majesty of your endings. Not the fact that they are arguably upbeat (and that is, as I say, arguable, as much as Jane's ending is NOT in ANY way ''clearly more downbeat'. I felt very emotional at it, as I felt it provided a vision of hope for Clem.). You think they are actually better done. You think they are more important.
That's why it's so plainly clear that you don't actually think Jane's endings are just as well done.
I can see what you're doing. After you were issued a warning, you are trying to manipulate (sound familiar? #LemoncakesisJane, let's trend it) people, including the mods, into thinking you're perfectly accepting of everyone's opinion.
But you're screwing up. You occasionally say little things, as telltalemaster has pointed out, that shows that is all, in fact, not true. They show a window into who you really are on this forum. Most of your posts show you looking down on anyone who likes the Jane endings. You do NOT think they are as valid as yours.
Your opinion, at its best, assuming its not all COMPLETE bullshit, is summed up in the following: 'All endings are valid, but some are more valid than others'.
Which is dumb, and annoying. Read Animal Farm.
You've been harping on about this for weeks. Do you not have something else you could do other than repeat the same point time and time again? What you're doing isn't even funny in a macabre way any more.
Hahahaha xD
There never was peace.
He's just a bandwagoner who's gone too far in his search for attention and popularity. He's played upon the forum which was already crap, he didn't make it crap in the first place.
i know, but he is one of the main guys who lit the Kenny vs Jane debate in the first place, along with a couple of other guys
telltalemaster, I see you're conflating the usage of terms like "good".
A "bad" ending, when using the term "bad" to include outcomes which have negative effects on the aspirations or goals of the central characters, can still be "good" for some people.
Chinatown has a pretty dismal ending which may be constituted as "bad" for most parties involved.
This doesn't mean the quality of the ending is bad.
Romeo and Juliet had a "bad end". Chekov plays normally have "bad ends".
But that's the point.
Am I helping you at all with any of this?
It sure as hell does mean that when you say the Kenny endings are more 'important' than the Jane ones, that's all about quality.
Lmao.
They're perfectly valid. You're conflating valid with "good".
A good ending and a bad ending are both equally valid in this instance in that they're both achievable.
If I put in a cheat code to have Clem grow wings and play a midi file of La Cucaracha, for instance, that ending wouldn't be valid.
You're also conflating "majesty" with good. Some people like more downbeat sombre endings.
What's wrong with that?
These are all my own tastes, and think the counterpoint of Jane's more low-key endings which highlight the personal failures of those particular Clementines make the Kenny endings all the more impactful.
I don't particularly appreciate your attempts to poison the well or call my motives into question when discussing elements of the series. I think personal attacks aren't really something to fall back on when you don't like someone else's opinion. If the topic of conversation bothers you this much, maybe you need more time away from the forum? Just my honest opinion.
...
...also that's not what macabre means.
Have a problem comprehending it? He is basically saying all endings are acceptable.
I and Asscrack should really get to the bottom of this.
I agree. If there are people in this thread that attack you personally (not naming any names) just remember that they're only words said in anger.
Interesting Read Lemon. Personally i always liked the "water ending" in Silent Hill 2.
Lol your the one who's pissing people off by making ANOTHER kenny V jane thread
People piss themselves off by turning a civil discussion into another angry Kenny V Jane thread. If you don't want to read/comment just hit the back button. What purpose does it to serve to bump a thread you perceive as antagonistic?
It's hard to argue that the Jane endings are more impactful than the Kenny endings. That's a tall order for anyone.
But they're adequate in conveying a sense of loss, unease, discontent, failure, discord, depression, defeat, etc..
Which, if you like downer endings or a downer ending is intended, is an accomplishment.
So what if it's not as good? It's still a valid ending.