I get what you're saying but its fairly common for people to blame themselves about things that weren't their fault and become very despressed about them, take Nick for example, his mom died and he blamed himself entirely even though she got bit, he blames himself for Pete dying even though it wasn't his doing, he also blames himself for Reggie losing his arm. It doesn't have to be your fault to make you feel like it is, Luke couldn't get Sarah out on his own and will blame himself if she dies even though he couldn't do anything.
Oh, Jamie definitely gave up on herself, but so did Jane the moment she let her get destroyed on a roof. Not giving her the support and emot… moreional stability that Jamie needed also counts as abandoning/giving up, you know. Nah, there's always a second choice. It's a matter of whether you're willing to take it or not.
It's not only about living without that person, but about torturing yourself with the thought of leaving your loved one behind. Let me show you an example. If my sister died one way or the other and I had no chance on Earth to save her, I obviously wouldn't commit suicide or go crazy over this. There was nothing I could have done. Jane is clearly affected by her questionable decision, which contradicts the belief that she truly "Had no choice." You can obviously be forever affected by your sister's death, but if you're also affected by making "The right decision" or doing something that couldn't be changed then there's something… [view original content]
That's exactly my point, though. I was there when Luke was giving his all to get Sarah out of there, and even though we ended up finding out there is indeed a way to save her (Like I said in the above text, there's always a second outcome), I'm not gonna hold it against him since I doubt he would have ever thought about slapping Sarah or physically harm her in any way. This Luke example further proves what I said before correct. "There's always a second choice. It's a matter of whether you're willing to take it or not."Also, even if I wasn't present at the moment, Luke never did anything to make me think he would openly lie about something like that. I trust his word far more than I trust Jane's.
Nick is such a different scenario. It was explained in-game how everything happened. Reggie was supposed to leave with the entire group but he fell or something like that. Out of everyone, only Nick decides to take the blame for whatever happened. By that point, the guy felt like such a liability that he kept taking the blame for doings that weren't even on him. For all we know Nick could have done something that indirectly caused Reggie to stay behind, but this was never implied. Therefore, it's safest to assume that he was just being noble about it. Plus, in none of those scenarios was Nick involved in a life-or-death decision making situation. He just felt bad because he couldn't protect his mother and Pete. Far different from having a choice to leave them as walker bait or save their life. Now Nick and Jane do have one thing in common, they question whether they did everything they could, which was a fair point made by you. But man, they do so for completely different reasons.
Let me tell you what I think. Had Nick truly believed he was at fault for any of those people's deaths, he would have killed himself long time ago. Poor kid can barely handle getting a stranger killed, so yeah, I believe at that point his words are the result of self-disappoinment.
I get what you're saying but its fairly common for people to blame themselves about things that weren't their fault and become very despress… moreed about them, take Nick for example, his mom died and he blamed himself entirely even though she got bit, he blames himself for Pete dying even though it wasn't his doing, he also blames himself for Reggie losing his arm. It doesn't have to be your fault to make you feel like it is, Luke couldn't get Sarah out on his own and will blame himself if she dies even though he couldn't do anything.
To me, it seemed that Jane thought leaving Jaime was Jane's one last shot at hoping that Jaime would pick herself up. Jane says, "So I tried something else. I told her she could have what she wanted. And I left her there." The key word here is "tried." It seems that Jane thought if she left Jaime behind that Jaime would realize that she didn't want to die, and she would get up and go on her own, even if it was a long shot. In other words, Jane left Jaime hoping they both would live, rather than stay and knowing they both would die. The probability of the first was very slim, but Jane wanted to take that chance.
Not a good enough excuse to let your little sister be devoured by walkers in my book.
Maybe you and I just have different morals and/or p… morehilosophies, but in my world, you stay with someone until the end if you truly care about that person. It's why I stayed with Sarah (Someone who I knew for about a week or so) until I managed to get her out of the trailer. So, it's safe to say I'd fight hundreds of walkers and die for my sister. Jane decided to keep living with the thought of letting her own flesh and blood die instead of continuing her selfless act, which is fine. This has clearly affected her, as she constantly speaks about Jamie and everything that happened. Sometimes it sounds like she's trying to convince herself she had no other choice when her facial expressions and tone when adressing the event loudly say otherwise.
If Jane gave up on her own sister, why wouldn't she give up on Clementine too? She clearly cares about her, but I… [view original content]
Which is a fair enough way to see things. For me, this was just Jane spinning the situation around so she could feel better about her actions. Look at Clementine when she determinantly leaves Sarah behind. She at the very least is realistic about it instead of saying "Oh, I let her get devoured by walkers cause' I thought I was helpin' her, XD." If you want to give up on someone, fine. But the least you can do is admit that you did so instead of trying to justify your actions by suddenly expecting a teenager to snap out of whatever trauma she was going through. Why would you seriously expect Sarah and/or Jamie to change their mind in a heartbeat just because a few walkers were approaching? Like I said in one of the above replies, fear is no longer a problem for people who want to die. The only way to help them is to provide support and emotional stability, which to my knowledge, Jane provided little to none. There's no twisting around letting your own flesh and blood get disemboweled by zombies when you had a better choice at hand. Jane was free to do whatever she wanted, though. I was just asking for at least a bit of honesty and facing the consequences of your actions instead of making yourself look like the victim. If anyone expected Jamie to go from suicidal to a badass zombiekiller that wants to experience the horrors of the apocalyptic word in a matter of seconds they were terribly mistaken.
To me, it seemed that Jane thought leaving Jaime was Jane's one last shot at hoping that Jaime would pick herself up. Jane says, "So I tried… more something else. I told her she could have what she wanted. And I left her there." The key word here is "tried." It seems that Jane thought if she left Jaime behind that Jaime would realize that she didn't want to die, and she would get up and go on her own, even if it was a long shot. In other words, Jane left Jaime hoping they both would live, rather than stay and knowing they both would die. The probability of the first was very slim, but Jane wanted to take that chance.
Well yeah, I don't think Jane was thinking clearly in this situation, and even though she's very logical, I wouldn't expect her to be thinking logically here (when the last person she cared about was probably going to die no matter what.) So Jane wouldn't realize that Jaime wouldn't just snap out of it. Perhaps Jane was trying to think about it in a better light to make herself feel better, but I believe that she really thought she was doing the best thing for the highest survival of both of them. And yes, Jane may have provided little to no support to Jaime after the ZA, but I think she tried her hardest to. Before the ZA, Jane seemed like she wasn't such a great sister. But I think she wanted to change that after the ZA, and I think she tried her best to give Jaime emotional support (though she probably wasn't too good at it.) Unfortunately whatever support Jane could give wasn't enough, and Jaime couldn't even bring herself to keep living for her own sister, Jane. And I think this last fact would've just crushed Jane even more.
Which is a fair enough way to see things. For me, this was just Jane spinning the situation around so she could feel better about her action… mores. Look at Clementine when she determinantly leaves Sarah behind. She at the very least is realistic about it instead of saying "Oh, I let her get devoured by walkers cause' I thought I was helpin' her, XD." If you want to give up on someone, fine. But the least you can do is admit that you did so instead of trying to justify your actions by suddenly expecting a teenager to snap out of whatever trauma she was going through. Why would you seriously expect Sarah and/or Jamie to change their mind in a heartbeat just because a few walkers were approaching? Like I said in one of the above replies, fear is no longer a problem for people who want to die. The only way to help them is to provide support and emotional stability, which to my knowledge, Jane provided little to none. There's no twisting around letting… [view original content]
She definitely wasn't thinking logically there. We're agreed. Well, you can't have that mentality. We don't know if Jamie could have changed for better with the right people around her, but even if she was bound to die sooner rather than later, it was about knowing you had no role in her death and tried to help her the best you could.
And it's not fair to assume that Jane provided little to no support to Jaime after the ZA.
I spoke about this before. If you like Jane and want to believe everything she says, fine with me. Personally, I see no reason to take her words to heart after she has shown an uncanny ability to make herself look like the victim and others the antagonists. (Look how many people shot poor ol' Kenny and enjoy Troy's massacre). I don't consider her trustworthy, nor do I think she's being completely honest about what happened. Maybe she did provide all the support in the world. Still, to my defense, she didn't when it mattered the most and her sister's life was on the line.
That makes sense. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Jane like many of these people do. I just can't find it in me to trust her after some of the stuff she pulled. Just like no one is forced have faith in Kenny or develop any kind of devotion to him.
Well yeah, I don't think Jane was thinking clearly in this situation, and even though she's very logical, I wouldn't expect her to be thinki… moreng logically here (when the last person she cared about was probably going to die no matter what.) So Jane wouldn't realize that Jaime wouldn't just snap out of it. Perhaps Jane was trying to think about it in a better light to make herself feel better, but I believe that she really thought she was doing the best thing for the highest survival of both of them. And yes, Jane may have provided little to no support to Jaime after the ZA, but I think she tried her hardest to. Before the ZA, Jane seemed like she wasn't such a great sister. But I think she wanted to change that after the ZA, and I think she tried her best to give Jaime emotional support (though she probably wasn't too good at it.) Unfortunately whatever support Jane could give wasn't enough, and Jaime couldn't even bring herself to keep living … [view original content]
No, you can't have that mentality to be illogical in a pressured situation. But sometimes you can't help it if you do.
That's your opinion man. Call me naive but looking at her body language and her vocal intonations, I don't believe she's lying. And she didn't provide emotional support to Jaime when it mattered because she probably couldn't; some people aren't good with that stuff. I won't blame her for trying though.
No I don't love her blindly either. I'll defend her as much as I can, but at the end of the day I'm really angry about some of the things she's done. But I'll still look for the best in her rather than the worst.
She definitely wasn't thinking logically there. We're agreed. Well, you can't have that mentality. We don't know if Jamie could have changed… more for better with the right people around her, but even if she was bound to die sooner rather than later, it was about knowing you had no role in her death and tried to help her the best you could.
And it's not fair to assume that Jane provided little to no support to Jaime after the ZA.
I spoke about this before. If you like Jane and want to believe everything she says, fine with me. Personally, I see no reason to take her words to heart after she has shown an uncanny ability to make herself look like the victim and others the antagonists. (Look how many people shot poor ol' Kenny and enjoy Troy's massacre). I don't consider her trustworthy, nor do I think she's being completely honest about what happened. Maybe she did provide all the support in the world. Still, to my defense, she didn't w… [view original content]
No, you can't have that mentality to be illogical in a pressured situation. But sometimes you can't help it if you do.
That's perfectly understandable. It just doesn't change the fact that all decisions made in this game are questionable and up for debate. This one included.
Because you trust her. I don't. That's really the only difference here as we seem to be in agreement on pretty much everything else.
Fair enough. Just like I don't think Kenny should have done that to Carver or yelled at Clementine. (I do believe she determinantly causes Sarita's death, but she had nothing but good intentions and Kenny going off on her broke me), but I still adore the guy and will defend him against all other accusations and people who try to ridicule him.
No, you can't have that mentality to be illogical in a pressured situation. But sometimes you can't help it if you do.
That's your opinio… moren man. Call me naive but looking at her body language and her vocal intonations, I don't believe she's lying. And she didn't provide emotional support to Jaime when it mattered because she probably couldn't; some people aren't good with that stuff. I won't blame her for trying though.
No I don't love her blindly either. I'll defend her as much as I can, but at the end of the day I'm really angry about some of the things she's done. But I'll still look for the best in her rather than the worst.
No, you can't have that mentality to be illogical in a pressured situation. But sometimes you can't help it if you do.
That's perfec… moretly understandable. It just doesn't change the fact that all decisions made in this game are questionable and up for debate. This one included.
Because you trust her. I don't. That's really the only difference here as we seem to be in agreement on pretty much everything else.
Fair enough. Just like I don't think Kenny should have done that to Carver or yelled at Clementine. (I do believe she determinantly causes Sarita's death, but she had nothing but good intentions and Kenny going off on her broke me), but I still adore the guy and will defend him against all other accusations and people who try to ridicule him.
I felt the same way about Jane. After Amid The Ruins, I was like "Meh, at least she's not just another Molly." Back then, she was OK for me. She's way below that after No Going Back, obviously, but I still don't hate her. Hadn't she forced that whole situation on me and push Kenny to his limits, I would have let her walk away alive before Kenny could harm her. I wouldn't even have minded letting her stay with us if she promised to leave Kenny alone and stop the nonsense of trying to get under his skin. Unfortunately, she didn't give me any choice.
It was interesting seeing whether people would choose the "Selfish sociopath/possible babykiller" or the "Incarnation of Carver/Insane man". Of course, the choice is far less fun if you're a hardcore fan of either. But people who were in the middle must have had a tough time.
Kenny's character overall is fine, but I'm not really a fan of his.
Yup, trust is what it comes down to. Interesting TT perhaps was able to pull off their theme of "trust" after all it seems.
Comments
I get what you're saying but its fairly common for people to blame themselves about things that weren't their fault and become very despressed about them, take Nick for example, his mom died and he blamed himself entirely even though she got bit, he blames himself for Pete dying even though it wasn't his doing, he also blames himself for Reggie losing his arm. It doesn't have to be your fault to make you feel like it is, Luke couldn't get Sarah out on his own and will blame himself if she dies even though he couldn't do anything.
Holy shit, these photoshop skills are amazing!!!
That's exactly my point, though. I was there when Luke was giving his all to get Sarah out of there, and even though we ended up finding out there is indeed a way to save her (Like I said in the above text, there's always a second outcome), I'm not gonna hold it against him since I doubt he would have ever thought about slapping Sarah or physically harm her in any way. This Luke example further proves what I said before correct. "There's always a second choice. It's a matter of whether you're willing to take it or not."Also, even if I wasn't present at the moment, Luke never did anything to make me think he would openly lie about something like that. I trust his word far more than I trust Jane's.
Nick is such a different scenario. It was explained in-game how everything happened. Reggie was supposed to leave with the entire group but he fell or something like that. Out of everyone, only Nick decides to take the blame for whatever happened. By that point, the guy felt like such a liability that he kept taking the blame for doings that weren't even on him. For all we know Nick could have done something that indirectly caused Reggie to stay behind, but this was never implied. Therefore, it's safest to assume that he was just being noble about it. Plus, in none of those scenarios was Nick involved in a life-or-death decision making situation. He just felt bad because he couldn't protect his mother and Pete. Far different from having a choice to leave them as walker bait or save their life. Now Nick and Jane do have one thing in common, they question whether they did everything they could, which was a fair point made by you. But man, they do so for completely different reasons.
Let me tell you what I think. Had Nick truly believed he was at fault for any of those people's deaths, he would have killed himself long time ago. Poor kid can barely handle getting a stranger killed, so yeah, I believe at that point his words are the result of self-disappoinment.
Ken is an All-Star.
http://youtu.be/Ss1G-SJhNsE
The fact that this catchy song is playing while Bill is getting a face transplant makes for a memorable experience.
Carol to Terminus before she blows a hole in the wall in their compound: HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!
(shoots the firework at the gas tank)
BOOM!
To me, it seemed that Jane thought leaving Jaime was Jane's one last shot at hoping that Jaime would pick herself up. Jane says, "So I tried something else. I told her she could have what she wanted. And I left her there." The key word here is "tried." It seems that Jane thought if she left Jaime behind that Jaime would realize that she didn't want to die, and she would get up and go on her own, even if it was a long shot. In other words, Jane left Jaime hoping they both would live, rather than stay and knowing they both would die. The probability of the first was very slim, but Jane wanted to take that chance.
Which is a fair enough way to see things. For me, this was just Jane spinning the situation around so she could feel better about her actions. Look at Clementine when she determinantly leaves Sarah behind. She at the very least is realistic about it instead of saying "Oh, I let her get devoured by walkers cause' I thought I was helpin' her, XD." If you want to give up on someone, fine. But the least you can do is admit that you did so instead of trying to justify your actions by suddenly expecting a teenager to snap out of whatever trauma she was going through. Why would you seriously expect Sarah and/or Jamie to change their mind in a heartbeat just because a few walkers were approaching? Like I said in one of the above replies, fear is no longer a problem for people who want to die. The only way to help them is to provide support and emotional stability, which to my knowledge, Jane provided little to none. There's no twisting around letting your own flesh and blood get disemboweled by zombies when you had a better choice at hand. Jane was free to do whatever she wanted, though. I was just asking for at least a bit of honesty and facing the consequences of your actions instead of making yourself look like the victim. If anyone expected Jamie to go from suicidal to a badass zombiekiller that wants to experience the horrors of the apocalyptic word in a matter of seconds they were terribly mistaken.
Well yeah, I don't think Jane was thinking clearly in this situation, and even though she's very logical, I wouldn't expect her to be thinking logically here (when the last person she cared about was probably going to die no matter what.) So Jane wouldn't realize that Jaime wouldn't just snap out of it. Perhaps Jane was trying to think about it in a better light to make herself feel better, but I believe that she really thought she was doing the best thing for the highest survival of both of them. And yes, Jane may have provided little to no support to Jaime after the ZA, but I think she tried her hardest to. Before the ZA, Jane seemed like she wasn't such a great sister. But I think she wanted to change that after the ZA, and I think she tried her best to give Jaime emotional support (though she probably wasn't too good at it.) Unfortunately whatever support Jane could give wasn't enough, and Jaime couldn't even bring herself to keep living for her own sister, Jane. And I think this last fact would've just crushed Jane even more.
She definitely wasn't thinking logically there. We're agreed. Well, you can't have that mentality. We don't know if Jamie could have changed for better with the right people around her, but even if she was bound to die sooner rather than later, it was about knowing you had no role in her death and tried to help her the best you could.
I spoke about this before. If you like Jane and want to believe everything she says, fine with me. Personally, I see no reason to take her words to heart after she has shown an uncanny ability to make herself look like the victim and others the antagonists. (Look how many people shot poor ol' Kenny and enjoy Troy's massacre). I don't consider her trustworthy, nor do I think she's being completely honest about what happened. Maybe she did provide all the support in the world. Still, to my defense, she didn't when it mattered the most and her sister's life was on the line.
That makes sense. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Jane like many of these people do. I just can't find it in me to trust her after some of the stuff she pulled. Just like no one is forced have faith in Kenny or develop any kind of devotion to him.
No, you can't have that mentality to be illogical in a pressured situation. But sometimes you can't help it if you do.
That's your opinion man. Call me naive but looking at her body language and her vocal intonations, I don't believe she's lying. And she didn't provide emotional support to Jaime when it mattered because she probably couldn't; some people aren't good with that stuff. I won't blame her for trying though.
No I don't love her blindly either. I'll defend her as much as I can, but at the end of the day I'm really angry about some of the things she's done. But I'll still look for the best in her rather than the worst.
That's perfectly understandable. It just doesn't change the fact that all decisions made in this game are questionable and up for debate. This one included.
Because you trust her. I don't. That's really the only difference here as we seem to be in agreement on pretty much everything else.
Fair enough. Just like I don't think Kenny should have done that to Carver or yelled at Clementine. (I do believe she determinantly causes Sarita's death, but she had nothing but good intentions and Kenny going off on her broke me), but I still adore the guy and will defend him against all other accusations and people who try to ridicule him.
Kenny's character overall is fine, but I'm not really a fan of his.
Yup, trust is what it comes down to. Interesting TT perhaps was able to pull off their theme of "trust" after all it seems.
I felt the same way about Jane. After Amid The Ruins, I was like "Meh, at least she's not just another Molly." Back then, she was OK for me. She's way below that after No Going Back, obviously, but I still don't hate her. Hadn't she forced that whole situation on me and push Kenny to his limits, I would have let her walk away alive before Kenny could harm her. I wouldn't even have minded letting her stay with us if she promised to leave Kenny alone and stop the nonsense of trying to get under his skin. Unfortunately, she didn't give me any choice.
It was interesting seeing whether people would choose the "Selfish sociopath/possible babykiller" or the "Incarnation of Carver/Insane man". Of course, the choice is far less fun if you're a hardcore fan of either. But people who were in the middle must have had a tough time.
Meanwhile at Terminus
What I thought before Rick showed up:
Daryl: squeeze
Glenn: not now dammit!
But no, I don't ship them.
Not even at work can I escape Clem and TWDG.
Something I did on paint.net in a 10 or so minutes but heres my daily meme to contribute to the meme thread
You work at a shop ? That's cool.
Yeah. (:
This is my place:
He's even a bigger loser than the guy who invented homework.
I'm gonna pretend you're the Elmo in the picture. Don't tell me what you actually do. It's better this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIxGIoRAW7A
Carley: "You'll thank me later"
Now all you need is to find the pizza
When the bae gives you a rough hicky
Carol evolution...
When Morgan came back...
...
LOL! Nice find bro.
nah
He later died a horribue death