I didn't see anything that Clem did that was the equivalent of the "apply a decent amount of pressure and rub it back and forth" part. The only parts involving her arm was lifting the board and smacking the walker on the head to save Pete or holding the door shut with Nick, both of which were panic situations and neither of which involved things actually touching the area around her wound. I'll agree that she probably shouldn't have had enough strength the hold the door closed in the Nick scenario though.
She's shown to be mature when it comes to helping others, but she was pretty reckless with her own safety in season 1. Wandering around Savannah, wanting to go to Crawford, crawling through doggie doors without checking first, talking to the Stranger on the walkie talkie, bashing the Stranger over the head while he had Lee at gunpoint, etc.
I thought she signaled plenty of pain while it was being inflicted. It's just the enduring pain afterwards that she doesn't react to and the reaction to that would be pretty subtle. Rushing to stop Carver from shooting Alvin was yet another example of her recklessness for her own safety that was a part of her personality in Season 1. The door-kicking scene I also thought was a bit hammy and unrealistic, but I was told by others that motor home doors are actually really flimsy and that that someone like Clem doing what she did wouldn't be that out of the question. The holding the door closed thing was unrealistic, I'll agree with that. The wind turbine things didn't strike me as badass, just...weird and poorly written. The gunshot was handled unrealistically, yeah, but that's more of a generalized fiction thing (Carver was similarly unfazed by getting hit in the shoulder). I've spoken before about how I feel that the way adults approached Clem to solve their problems was a major gripe I had with the season. I only recall her getting hit with a gun once in the stomach by Carver and then by Troy. The first one clearly knocked the wind out of her and the second left her dazed and on the ground for a while with her still feeling the pain of it when she wakes up.
I don't disagree that Clem seemed hypercompetent at times in Season 2, but her reaction to pain wasn't something that stuck out to me in that sense.
No it's not. The things rubbing against the stitches don't need to contact them in order to pull. Put a band aid on your forearm, cover it w… moreith a long sleeve shirt, apply a decent amount of pressure and rub it back and forth. I bet your arm hair is pulling isn't it?
Perhaps, but the way I see it it is well founded she is mature for her age (even in season one). Her having a maturity level on par with a person who recognizes getting stitches undone is bad is definitely not what I'm arguing against. Someone who signals no pain to something that would be painful, someone that attempts to tackle a man holding a gun to another mans head, someone who knocks down doors like a SWAT team member, someone who someone who holds the door closed on a pack of walkers while wounded, someone that turns of a wind turbine, someone who gets shot and rubs the pain away like a slightly sprained ankle, someone who is tasked with adult things that adults don't fe… [view original content]
I won't even mention the "pulling out the stitches" thought anymore. I believe it would be on her mind, but you don't, and as I stated earlier it is the lesser of the two situations.
It should be subtle, a facial expression when glancing at her arm, a shake after something strenuous, anything. Instead it's just gone. Doesn't effect her or what she can do or how well she can do it. Something that surpasses the norm of any mature or "bad ass" (also bad ass is not the best term, I use it in lieu of other terms like supernatural, superhuman, unnatural, etc. It serves the purpose without making it sound like I think they make her out to be a super hero or an immortal or something) person by a hop and a leap. As stated earlier in the thread it isn't that she does any single on of these things, it's that she does all of these things. To be completely honest I never put much behind this argument, it would have fallen to the wayside if not for the scene in the truck after she is shot. That stood out to me as such bullshit that I had to rethink my position on the way she handled other moments of pain / moments after of pain. And it has led me to believe that she doesn't react to pain (or moreover pain after the injury) like any normal person would.
I didn't see anything that Clem did that was the equivalent of the "apply a decent amount of pressure and rub it back and forth" part. The o… morenly parts involving her arm was lifting the board and smacking the walker on the head to save Pete or holding the door shut with Nick, both of which were panic situations and neither of which involved things actually touching the area around her wound. I'll agree that she probably shouldn't have had enough strength the hold the door closed in the Nick scenario though.
She's shown to be mature when it comes to helping others, but she was pretty reckless with her own safety in season 1. Wandering around Savannah, wanting to go to Crawford, crawling through doggie doors without checking first, talking to the Stranger on the walkie talkie, bashing the Stranger over the head while he had Lee at gunpoint, etc.
I thought she signaled plenty of pain while it was being inflicted. It's just the enduring pain … [view original content]
Theres a huge difference between Clem and Carl. Clem is much smarter than Carl, much more logical and has been through arguably more shit than Carl has. Age doesn't mean much when comparing brains. It is totally believable that she could do all that stuff (Besides don't girls mature faster than boys?) What's harder to believe is how stupid and irrational the "Adults" are compared to her.
The thing that got me with the scene in the truck was that she was in the back seat alone. You'd think that one of the adults would maybe hang back there and monitor her condition rather than just assuming that she'll wake up and be fine. They didn't even fucking bandage it, for god's sake; it should have been bleeding out like hell. But, again, they ignored Carver's shoulder wound to an even greater extent, Jane doesn't limp at all after being stabbed in the leg, Kenny is fine after getting slashed in the stomach with a knife, and Mike's bullet wound to his arm doesn't seem to impede him at all.
I won't even mention the "pulling out the stitches" thought anymore. I believe it would be on her mind, but you don't, and as I stated earli… moreer it is the lesser of the two situations.
It should be subtle, a facial expression when glancing at her arm, a shake after something strenuous, anything. Instead it's just gone. Doesn't effect her or what she can do or how well she can do it. Something that surpasses the norm of any mature or "bad ass" (also bad ass is not the best term, I use it in lieu of other terms like supernatural, superhuman, unnatural, etc. It serves the purpose without making it sound like I think they make her out to be a super hero or an immortal or something) person by a hop and a leap. As stated earlier in the thread it isn't that she does any single on of these things, it's that she does all of these things. To be completely honest I never put much behind this argument, it would have fallen to the wayside if not for the … [view original content]
Out of curiosity; Do you think they can reinvent the game into something like season one for season three while still giving Clementine a major roll in the story?
Domewing333 had this to say: What about...recovery? With everything she's gone through in Seasons 1 and 2, she'll be pretty messed up and damaged by the start of Season 3. So why not have it be about her regaining some of what she's lost? Maybe meet a guardian figure who's actually mentally stable and nice. Maybe find a kid she can identify and bond with. Maybe experience genuine happiness for a little while. Obviously, it can't be all sunshine and rainbows and she's still going to have to face more challenges and hardships to make for an interesting season. But instead of escalating the pain and suffering she has to go through season after season to have her more broken at the end of each, why not have the season be about trying to rebuild her trust in others and dealing with some of the past trauma that she's faced?
And I had something similar with: I hope she ends up at wellington as canon, where she can begin to calm down and cope with what the last two seasons have smashed her with. She'll have to face trials in order to make the season worth playing, but I feel those trials could be for reward, the reward of maintaining her elusive happiness. Trying to keep herself sane, happy, and potentially partly childish vs just trying to keep herself alive like season 2.
Will they be able to move her back to the position of an NPC? Who will take her place as the PC? How will they do this without nullifying everything they did in season two? (Which, I wouldn't actually mind...... but some would.)
You're right but its still a game and aren't games about doing awesome things?
One the things I precisely liked about season one of … morethe Walking Dead was that it actually defied, if not outright perverted, the concept of wish fulfillment in a video game. Most everything significant you can try to accomplish is used to subvert your expectations. If you want to save Carley at the drugstore, they give you just enough time to grow close to her, then kill her right in front of you. You want to kill Larry, then you need to pull his screaming daughter off him by force first. If you want to bring Clem to Crawford, thinking she's tough, she'll speak out on behalf of the group's weakest member.
There's nothing wrong with wish fulfillment, and video games exceed at it as a medium. But season one of TWDG made it's mark by inverting that concept. Instead of letting you choose what you want to fulfill your power fantasy, they use your expectation… [view original content]
That'd be like deciding to build a bridge over a canyon when you're already standing at the bottom of the canyon. You'd have to bust you're ass just to climb out of the damn hole you're stuck in, and even if you manage that, you still got a whole damn bridge you need to build before you can start moving forward again.
It COULD be done, but it would probably require an enormous effort on the creative staff to make workable. And I don't see that happening, not as long as The Walking Dead Formula of go somewhere, meet people, kill people, go somewhere else remains profitable and easy to exploit. Where's the motivation to do something challenging when the easy route pays just as well? Especially after already crudely exploiting everything S1 worked so hard to achieve just to prop up a directionless S2. They skipped sixteen months of Clementine's life just to make things simpler for them, you really think they're not gonna jump ahead over all the season two endings to the next reset point? That's assuming they just don't ditch Clementine and start over with someone else.
As for what you quoted from Domewing, they could and SHOULD have done everything he's describing in Season 2! Clementine was already traumatized as hell by the end of S1. Tons of people she liked dying in horrible ways, being held captive by both cannibals and murderous bandits, watching Lilly murder someone for no good reason, seeing Duck die right in front her, then finding out his kindly mother shot herself. And her one ray of hope, a voice on the radio promising to find her parents... was an insane man who kidnapped her and tried to murder her guardian. And then she found out her parents were already dead. Then she finds out Lee is dying. And she probably thinks it was all her fault no less.
She already had a enough trauma to work through for an entire season. You had nice and stable guardians in Omid and Christa. And the kid she could identify and bond with was Sarah. Between all that, they had everything they needed to write a story about Clem coping with her losses with the help of kindly and kindred people trying to give her a semblance of happiness again, and what did they do? They jumped past the most turbulent years in Clementine's life, ditch Omid and Christa less than ten minutes in, and used Sarah as a prop to demonstrate how "badass" Clem is.
Hate to sound so pessimistic, but really, at this point I'm just grateful Season 1 was as masterful as it was. I'm not expecting it to happen again. =/
Out of curiosity; Do you think they can reinvent the game into something like season one for season three while still giving Clementine a ma… morejor roll in the story?
Domewing333 had this to say: What about...recovery? With everything she's gone through in Seasons 1 and 2, she'll be pretty messed up and damaged by the start of Season 3. So why not have it be about her regaining some of what she's lost? Maybe meet a guardian figure who's actually mentally stable and nice. Maybe find a kid she can identify and bond with. Maybe experience genuine happiness for a little while. Obviously, it can't be all sunshine and rainbows and she's still going to have to face more challenges and hardships to make for an interesting season. But instead of escalating the pain and suffering she has to go through season after season to have her more broken at the end of each, why not have the season be about trying to rebuild her trust in others and dealing with so… [view original content]
That'd be like deciding to build a bridge over a canyon when you're already standing at the bottom of the canyon. You'd have to bust you're ass just to climb out of the damn hole you're stuck in, and even you manage that, you still got a whole damn bridge you need to build before you can start moving forward again.
It says enough that in a certain other thread, several of us had already been opting for the consolation prize, the mercy killing of the story, hoping for a respectable final wrap up and send off to it and the series rather than want to continue on in the same tedious direction and into the doldrums of a third season.
Frankly, as the season progressed, everything continued to feel increasingly all the more surreal, disconnected, dream-like, and distorted when looking all the way back to that point when "16 months later" flashed across the screen, almost as if I'd been falling endlessly down a deep rabbit hole. I'd grown weary of it. "My eyes are bleeding and my heart is leaving here," as a screaming Ronnie James put it in an old Rainbow song. "Take me back!"
Between all that, they had everything they needed to write a story about Clem coping with her losses with the help of kindly and kindred people trying to give her a semblance of happiness again, and what did they do? They jumped past the most turbulent years in Clementine's life, ditch Omid and Christa less than ten minutes in, and used Sarah as a prop to demonstrate how "badass" Clem is.
To wit, consider In The Pines (for that matter, consider also the iconic SI music that plays immediately before the menu screen), something if quite poignant and touching, ultimately bitter in taste when one realises that its moving and sympathetic tune and words evoking the picture of the vulnerable and struggling orphaned Clementine, conflicted and alone and suffering in her forlornness and distress, have no place in the whole of the game.
I was clearly aware that it wasn't owing to much of anything from my static experience playing her through the course of this story (prologue and season finale excepted) that the song could elicit the empathetic response it did from me, unless you count sad regret for the song's emotion having no real place here except in the credits in a place of banishment. It evoked strong emotions that I nonetheless know were forced, materialising only because the music triggered past memories of her that I instinctively might have then tried projecting in her direction within her present role and incarnation.
This was all due to the absence from the game of essential character dynamics, coherence, consistency (with the past no less than within the present), progression, development, growth, realism, a strict shunning of exaggeration, the very things that by combining to produce strong and robust characterisation actually bring Clementine's personal struggles, vulnerabilities, distress, and inner suffering to the fore and present them to us,
I could not connect the two, the attitudes underlying the song and the game; they were clearly mismatched and incongruous. Alas, poor Clementine, but deep inside you had not "caused me to weep, caused me to moan." What was only in my memory of you had done so, that and whatever of you in this season was able to force something of that sentiment out of me only through its conscious, manipulative assistance. The song felt more like a funeral dirge for the strong spirit of writing that fashioned her character and would have presented her evolution to us convincingly and in a compelling way, a manner of writing that in its absence has made her unrecognisable.
Hate to sound so pessimistic, but really, at this point I'm just grateful Season 1 was as masterful as it was. I'm not expecting it to happen again. =/
I'm sure that in some parallel reality out there, the game is being ret-conned, or rather entirely excised out of existence, and that the company is secretly starting over, working on the Season II of high calibre that should have been, and taking place right after the events of the 1st season.
They release a surprise trailer announcing this with grand fanfare, and in a note of joyous consolation announcing the new game and our deliverance and exodus out from this season's dark Wonderland dream and back to our dearly prized character as we once recognised her, Dio's voice jubilantly erupts with the first opening seconds of the trailer at the fade-in: "I see a rainbow rising, look there, on the horizon, and I'm coming home! I'm coming home! I'm coming hooooome!"
(6:44) Yes, I always look for a cheap excuse to post music. ;-)
That'd be like deciding to build a bridge over a canyon when you're already standing at the bottom of the canyon. You'd have to bust you're … moreass just to climb out of the damn hole you're stuck in, and even if you manage that, you still got a whole damn bridge you need to build before you can start moving forward again.
It COULD be done, but it would probably require an enormous effort on the creative staff to make workable. And I don't see that happening, not as long as The Walking Dead Formula of go somewhere, meet people, kill people, go somewhere else remains profitable and easy to exploit. Where's the motivation to do something challenging when the easy route pays just as well? Especially after already crudely exploiting everything S1 worked so hard to achieve just to prop up a directionless S2. They skipped sixteen months of Clementine's life just to make things simpler for them, you really think they're not gonna jump ahead over all t… [view original content]
Truly heartbreaking. As I said about half way through season two, when I recognized the telltale signs of an increasingly steep downhill slide, I'll just have to delete season two and convince myself that season one was a standalone masterpiece that never needed and never shall have a sequel. Unless they convince me otherwise with an equally masterful season three, then I left my Clementine sitting on a log reflecting on the man she had just left inside a jewelry store and squinting at the two passerby's that I'll never be able to identify outside of my hopes and wants for her.
That'd be like deciding to build a bridge over a canyon when you're already standing at the bottom of the canyon. You'd have to bust you're … moreass just to climb out of the damn hole you're stuck in, and even if you manage that, you still got a whole damn bridge you need to build before you can start moving forward again.
It COULD be done, but it would probably require an enormous effort on the creative staff to make workable. And I don't see that happening, not as long as The Walking Dead Formula of go somewhere, meet people, kill people, go somewhere else remains profitable and easy to exploit. Where's the motivation to do something challenging when the easy route pays just as well? Especially after already crudely exploiting everything S1 worked so hard to achieve just to prop up a directionless S2. They skipped sixteen months of Clementine's life just to make things simpler for them, you really think they're not gonna jump ahead over all t… [view original content]
I see no way around this: Season II has to be redone. Someone should promptly replace Lee in this video with Vanaman, and then have the old fanbase spam the man's inbox with it as a form of mass petitioning.
"It's no good. Vanaman's gonna die and Clementine's gonna be left all alone in a sequel full of awful scripting. It's over."
"To Hell with this!"
"You think you can quit, Vanaman? The Hulk ain't gonna let you quit. Turning into a zombie is a rainbow compared to 30 seconds in the ring with me. Now GET UP, GET UP! GET UP!"
(But it is genuinely sad where things have reached with the series. Treating myself to a little levity is likely all I have at this point to counter the disappointment.)
Truly heartbreaking. As I said about half way through season two, when I recognized the telltale signs of an increasingly steep downhill sli… morede, I'll just have to delete season two and convince myself that season one was a standalone masterpiece that never needed and never shall have a sequel. Unless they convince me otherwise with an equally masterful season three, then I left my Clementine sitting on a log reflecting on the man she had just left inside a jewelry store and squinting at the two passerby's that I'll never be able to identify outside of my hopes and wants for her.
Ironically I actually like surreal, distorted, dream-like games. No More Heroes and Conker's Bad Fur Day are my two of my favorite games because they go out of their way to defy any sense of logic. But... that's not what I was expecting for a follow-up to The Walking Dead game. Actually thinking about though, S2 seems to work better if you picture it as some kind of dying dream or purgatory Clementine is enduring.
That would explain all the massive plot holes and leaps in logic at very least. Maybe the cabin grew are actually projections representing different parts of Clementine. She's actually still lying in the forest, dying from a combination of malnutrition, blood loss, and an infected gash on her arm.
Pete's her desire for a strong encouraging guardian like Lee, but the bitter memories of losing Lee cause Pete to die the same way.
Nick is obviously her feelings towards Ben, a pity at his plight and general like of his well meaning nature. His death's represent Ben's as well. They both can die because a supposedly good man and a teacher (Walter/Lee) chooses to let them perish. Or he simply perishes out of sight, never getting a chance to say goodbye. (Clem was in the Stranger's clutches during Ben's second death.)
Carlos and Sarah represent a combination of Clem's insecurities and her desire to escape the world she's trapped in. She wants to be sheltered from the horrors she's faced with, and yet she also hates herself for wanting that. She's wants protection, yet she hates herself for wanting to be protected. Carlos hitting Sarah personifying her conflicted feelings, Carlos dying the ultimate realization there's no one willing to shield her, and Sarah's deaths her ultimate fate. Either abandoned by others, or simply a victim of fate.
Alvin and Rebecca are her parents. Their initial indifference and hostility a product of Clem's bitterness towards them for not being there when she needed them, distant when she was hurting alone as shown by Clem trapped in the shed. Their later friendlier nature is Clem's overwhelming desire just to be loved again. Which means AJ is her, thrust into a horrible world without even so much as his parents for guidance.
Carver is a personification of Clem's outlook on the cruel people of the world. To her, there's no rational reason for the way they act. So Carver is a petty bully with power. His abusive tendencies senseless and arbitrary. His ideology non-sensical. His ignorance and self-inflated sense of importance, baffling. Ultimately doomed by his own self-destructive nature.
Luke, Kenny, Jane are an evolution of Clem's dying delusions, a desire for a hero to save her. They are all introduced as idealized versions of a savior, only to be corrupted and replaced by the next delusion.
Luke is the charming farm boy, the original ideal hero of fantasy. A product of Clem's Id. A strapping knight swooping in to save her. But as he's a product of fantasy, he is repeatedly foiled by reality. He lovingly carries Clem, only to drop her when he thinks she's bitten. He nominates her to traverse the bridge, and she's nearly killed when he can't help her. He recruits Clem for a spy mission at Howe's, he's discovered and everyone is punished. He goes to save Sarah, he can't, and if Clem does, his role as a the dashing hero causes him to neglect his duty, leading to Sarah's death. His last act is to assure Clem everything is okay, the he dies.
Kenny is a hero born out of Clem's nostalgia for the past and a part of Clem's ego. Someone who was real and tangible and could still be out there. He survives the impossible and offers Clem shelter in a beautiful lodge where they're safe and warm. But confronted by Carver, her stand-in for the evils of the world, she slowly remembers Kenny's many faults. His pettiness, his stubborn nature, his tendency to lash out. Gradually the nostalgia gives way to the reality of who he was, then the reality gives way to cynicism. Replacing all his heroic traits with villainous ones.
Jane is Clem's idealized version of Clem's future self, her super-ego in a sense. A Molly like figure, completely independent, capable, fearless, with no need for others. But this image is slowly corrupted by Clem's subconscious realizing Jane isn't the kind of person she wants to be. Her hesitation to save Sarah represents the conflict in Clem's mind, to survive like this would mean to become the kind of person who would have left a younger Clem to die, simply because at some point she was a burden. And Jane's concern for Clementine is actually a representation of Clem's own selfishness and loneliness. A figure constructed by Clem only to care for Clem. Her willingness to hide AJ from Clem is Clem realizing she would have to lie to herself to function this way.
No Going Back is the eventual convergence of these dying delusions. Luke was never more than a fantasy, so he simply vanishes. Leaving the conflict between Kenny and Jane, a distant echo of the past and cold visage of Clem's future doing battle over AJ. AJ, a helpless baby with no influence on the events that decide his fate, an apt metaphor for Clem's soul.
Kenny winning is Clem clinging to the delusion someone from the past will simply come to her rescue, and bring her to promise land like she always wanted. Jane's victory is misguided belief that Clem can simply overcome without any help and control her own destiny at the mere cost of hating herself. And if Clem kills these delusions, and all the remains is AJ, she has brief moment of clarity before she dies. Her carrying AJ into the herd is the realization that she was, for a time, a pure soul that inspired others, but was ultimately fated to be lost to the world of dead, as just another morsel for the feast...
...
Hmm, maybe I should drop some acid and give season two another chance. =D
That'd be like deciding to build a bridge over a canyon when you're already standing at the bottom of the canyon. You'd have to bust you're … moreass just to climb out of the damn hole you're stuck in, and even you manage that, you still got a whole damn bridge you need to build before you can start moving forward again.
It says enough that in a certain other thread, several of us had already been opting for the consolation prize, the mercy killing of the story, hoping for a respectable final wrap up and send off to it and the series rather than want to continue on in the same tedious direction and into the doldrums of a third season.
Frankly, as the season progressed, everything continued to feel increasingly all the more surreal, disconnected, dream-like, and distorted when looking all the way back to that point when "16 months later" flashed across the screen, almost as if I'd been falling endlessly down a deep rabbit hole. I'd grown… [view original content]
I see no way around this: Season II has to be redone. Someone should promptly replace Lee in this video with Vanaman, and then have the old … morefanbase spam the man's inbox with it as a form of mass petitioning.
"It's no good. Vanaman's gonna die and Clementine's gonna be left all alone in a sequel full of awful scripting. It's over."
"To Hell with this!"
"You think you can quit, Vanaman? The Hulk ain't gonna let you quit. Turning into a zombie is a rainbow compared to 30 seconds in the ring with me. Now GET UP, GET UP! GET UP!"
(But it is genuinely sad where things have reached with the series. Treating myself to a little levity is likely all I have at this point to counter the disappointment.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBC9D0IRj3o
Ironically I actually like surreal, distorted, dream-like games. No More Heroes and Conker's Bad Fur Day are my two of my favorite games bec… moreause they go out of their way to defy any sense of logic. But... that's not what I was expecting for a follow-up to The Walking Dead game. Actually thinking about though, S2 seems to work better if you picture it as some kind of dying dream or purgatory Clementine is enduring.
That would explain all the massive plot holes and leaps in logic at very least. Maybe the cabin grew are actually projections representing different parts of Clementine. She's actually still lying in the forest, dying from a combination of malnutrition, blood loss, and an infected gash on her arm.
* Pete's her desire for a strong encouraging guardian like Lee, but the bitter memories of losing Lee cause Pete to die the same way.
* Nick is obviously her feelings towards Ben, a pity at his plight and general like of his well … [view original content]
Ironically I actually like surreal, distorted, dream-like games. No More Heroes and Conker's Bad Fur Day are my two of my favorite games bec… moreause they go out of their way to defy any sense of logic. But... that's not what I was expecting for a follow-up to The Walking Dead game. Actually thinking about though, S2 seems to work better if you picture it as some kind of dying dream or purgatory Clementine is enduring.
That would explain all the massive plot holes and leaps in logic at very least. Maybe the cabin grew are actually projections representing different parts of Clementine. She's actually still lying in the forest, dying from a combination of malnutrition, blood loss, and an infected gash on her arm.
* Pete's her desire for a strong encouraging guardian like Lee, but the bitter memories of losing Lee cause Pete to die the same way.
* Nick is obviously her feelings towards Ben, a pity at his plight and general like of his well … [view original content]
I think it's possible for Telltale to re-do S2, but I really don't see them doing it anytime soon, mostly because, S2 is very mixed in the general consensus. Some people love S2 and don't think it needs fixing, some people hate S2 and want a remake, and then there's people who thought S2 was a fun ride but completely failed to achieve the same impact that S1 gave them, I for one think S2 needs real hard reworking in quite a lot of areas, but I don't think Telltale believe in remakes and I think it would be a waste of time to them at least, all I can hope for is that S3 goes back to the glory days of S1 and feels more like an actual sequel with some thought and genuine effort put into it, rather just going by the book and going down a check list on what to put in a Walking Dead episode, and I could probably do without writers who really don't give a shit about the story and characters and just do what the notes say....I'm looking at you Pierre Shortee.
I see no way around this: Season II has to be redone. Someone should promptly replace Lee in this video with Vanaman, and then have the old … morefanbase spam the man's inbox with it as a form of mass petitioning.
"It's no good. Vanaman's gonna die and Clementine's gonna be left all alone in a sequel full of awful scripting. It's over."
"To Hell with this!"
"You think you can quit, Vanaman? The Hulk ain't gonna let you quit. Turning into a zombie is a rainbow compared to 30 seconds in the ring with me. Now GET UP, GET UP! GET UP!"
(But it is genuinely sad where things have reached with the series. Treating myself to a little levity is likely all I have at this point to counter the disappointment.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBC9D0IRj3o
I'm not sure why you'd ask the question. Obviously I think it was seriously detrimental. From my point of view, the Walking Dead was expected to be a single, continuous project and story in multiple stages that would span the full length of more than a season, remaining connected through every successive chapter, with the first episode of the new season through a solid link with both the events and spirit of the first, coming across more as a sixth episode of that first season.
Especially with the conclusion of Season I, I drew no satisfaction in regarding that season as merely a standalone piece. It certainly offered closure to an extent, but it likewise clearly signalled a continuation and demanded it. I couldn't help but conclude with the way it had closed that Vanaman had a larger vision in mind, a plot and narrative on a grander scale planned that he was intending to pursue and realise by moving ahead with the story.
For such a project, you naturally would be loath to have the work delegated to a new party. Rather, one would rely on and expect of those who had contributed to that vision through crucial writing execution to be the ones who would follow through and successfully carry the story's momentum forward, give it a solid direction to follow, and bring its spirit faithfully across to the next greater chapter.
Jaded X Gamer mentioned Vanaman 'talk[ing] about how he had that song that plays during the credits of S1 in his head when was writing it, trying to perfectly build up [the greater narrative] to that climax he could so clearly see. He had very definite goals he wanted to accomplish with his story'.
And above all, it is the spirit of the whole enterprise, of the story and Clementine, that has changed the most. I've mentioned before how I could see this most clearly illustrated in how the game sharply contrasted with its music, so hearing this about Vanaman really says a lot to me. That he not only was the original writer who crafted the first season, but especially that he also was a man who would let the spirit of a musical piece primarily inform his writing--and what a great approach to the task that counts as for me--makes him very much the man in whom I would have gladly placed my trust in continuing this story.
(One gripe: I honestly never enjoyed the closing credits song to the Season I finale: I'd have much preferred In the Pines. My choice of most suitable music to inspire the writing?: Pines, the entire Clementine Suite, and a magnificent piece by Dinah Washington):
And following from that mention of music, woe betide the day Jared Emerson Johnson, whose work in the business harkens back to days in the company of the great Clint Bajakian, should ever turn heel and follow in the trail of those who have left the company.
I don't see how this wasn't realistic, it's not that difficult to kick a door down especially if it's pretty old, who knows how old that door is :x Not to mention Walkers were weakening it for hours.
It felt pretty forced. Jane says "PUT SOME MUSCLE INTO IT!" rather than, y'know, putting her own muscle into it.
You want Clem to be a 'strong female character', let her show some backbone and tell people off for trying to control her. Don't force her to be constantly submissive towards Kenny during the moments that really matter - where's the option where you're apathetic about his death? If you're the kind of person who took glee in seeing Carver's mutilation and found no problem with letting a teenage girl get eaten alive, why would you be brought to tears about shooting someone who's already made clear that they're out of control?
I don't see how this wasn't realistic, it's not that difficult to kick a door down especially if it's pretty old, who knows how old that door is :x Not to mention Walkers were weakening it for hours.
Comments
I didn't see anything that Clem did that was the equivalent of the "apply a decent amount of pressure and rub it back and forth" part. The only parts involving her arm was lifting the board and smacking the walker on the head to save Pete or holding the door shut with Nick, both of which were panic situations and neither of which involved things actually touching the area around her wound. I'll agree that she probably shouldn't have had enough strength the hold the door closed in the Nick scenario though.
She's shown to be mature when it comes to helping others, but she was pretty reckless with her own safety in season 1. Wandering around Savannah, wanting to go to Crawford, crawling through doggie doors without checking first, talking to the Stranger on the walkie talkie, bashing the Stranger over the head while he had Lee at gunpoint, etc.
I thought she signaled plenty of pain while it was being inflicted. It's just the enduring pain afterwards that she doesn't react to and the reaction to that would be pretty subtle. Rushing to stop Carver from shooting Alvin was yet another example of her recklessness for her own safety that was a part of her personality in Season 1. The door-kicking scene I also thought was a bit hammy and unrealistic, but I was told by others that motor home doors are actually really flimsy and that that someone like Clem doing what she did wouldn't be that out of the question. The holding the door closed thing was unrealistic, I'll agree with that. The wind turbine things didn't strike me as badass, just...weird and poorly written. The gunshot was handled unrealistically, yeah, but that's more of a generalized fiction thing (Carver was similarly unfazed by getting hit in the shoulder). I've spoken before about how I feel that the way adults approached Clem to solve their problems was a major gripe I had with the season. I only recall her getting hit with a gun once in the stomach by Carver and then by Troy. The first one clearly knocked the wind out of her and the second left her dazed and on the ground for a while with her still feeling the pain of it when she wakes up.
I don't disagree that Clem seemed hypercompetent at times in Season 2, but her reaction to pain wasn't something that stuck out to me in that sense.
I won't even mention the "pulling out the stitches" thought anymore. I believe it would be on her mind, but you don't, and as I stated earlier it is the lesser of the two situations.
It should be subtle, a facial expression when glancing at her arm, a shake after something strenuous, anything. Instead it's just gone. Doesn't effect her or what she can do or how well she can do it. Something that surpasses the norm of any mature or "bad ass" (also bad ass is not the best term, I use it in lieu of other terms like supernatural, superhuman, unnatural, etc. It serves the purpose without making it sound like I think they make her out to be a super hero or an immortal or something) person by a hop and a leap. As stated earlier in the thread it isn't that she does any single on of these things, it's that she does all of these things. To be completely honest I never put much behind this argument, it would have fallen to the wayside if not for the scene in the truck after she is shot. That stood out to me as such bullshit that I had to rethink my position on the way she handled other moments of pain / moments after of pain. And it has led me to believe that she doesn't react to pain (or moreover pain after the injury) like any normal person would.
Theres a huge difference between Clem and Carl. Clem is much smarter than Carl, much more logical and has been through arguably more shit than Carl has. Age doesn't mean much when comparing brains. It is totally believable that she could do all that stuff (Besides don't girls mature faster than boys?) What's harder to believe is how stupid and irrational the "Adults" are compared to her.
The thing that got me with the scene in the truck was that she was in the back seat alone. You'd think that one of the adults would maybe hang back there and monitor her condition rather than just assuming that she'll wake up and be fine. They didn't even fucking bandage it, for god's sake; it should have been bleeding out like hell. But, again, they ignored Carver's shoulder wound to an even greater extent, Jane doesn't limp at all after being stabbed in the leg, Kenny is fine after getting slashed in the stomach with a knife, and Mike's bullet wound to his arm doesn't seem to impede him at all.
Out of curiosity; Do you think they can reinvent the game into something like season one for season three while still giving Clementine a major roll in the story?
Domewing333 had this to say: What about...recovery? With everything she's gone through in Seasons 1 and 2, she'll be pretty messed up and damaged by the start of Season 3. So why not have it be about her regaining some of what she's lost? Maybe meet a guardian figure who's actually mentally stable and nice. Maybe find a kid she can identify and bond with. Maybe experience genuine happiness for a little while. Obviously, it can't be all sunshine and rainbows and she's still going to have to face more challenges and hardships to make for an interesting season. But instead of escalating the pain and suffering she has to go through season after season to have her more broken at the end of each, why not have the season be about trying to rebuild her trust in others and dealing with some of the past trauma that she's faced?
And I had something similar with: I hope she ends up at wellington as canon, where she can begin to calm down and cope with what the last two seasons have smashed her with. She'll have to face trials in order to make the season worth playing, but I feel those trials could be for reward, the reward of maintaining her elusive happiness. Trying to keep herself sane, happy, and potentially partly childish vs just trying to keep herself alive like season 2.
Will they be able to move her back to the position of an NPC? Who will take her place as the PC? How will they do this without nullifying everything they did in season two? (Which, I wouldn't actually mind...... but some would.)
Apocalypse makes all badass...
Then think about it: Clem lose her parents, lose Lee, killed a man (the stranger), she live in that world every second... I think is possible
That'd be like deciding to build a bridge over a canyon when you're already standing at the bottom of the canyon. You'd have to bust you're ass just to climb out of the damn hole you're stuck in, and even if you manage that, you still got a whole damn bridge you need to build before you can start moving forward again.
It COULD be done, but it would probably require an enormous effort on the creative staff to make workable. And I don't see that happening, not as long as The Walking Dead Formula of go somewhere, meet people, kill people, go somewhere else remains profitable and easy to exploit. Where's the motivation to do something challenging when the easy route pays just as well? Especially after already crudely exploiting everything S1 worked so hard to achieve just to prop up a directionless S2. They skipped sixteen months of Clementine's life just to make things simpler for them, you really think they're not gonna jump ahead over all the season two endings to the next reset point? That's assuming they just don't ditch Clementine and start over with someone else.
As for what you quoted from Domewing, they could and SHOULD have done everything he's describing in Season 2! Clementine was already traumatized as hell by the end of S1. Tons of people she liked dying in horrible ways, being held captive by both cannibals and murderous bandits, watching Lilly murder someone for no good reason, seeing Duck die right in front her, then finding out his kindly mother shot herself. And her one ray of hope, a voice on the radio promising to find her parents... was an insane man who kidnapped her and tried to murder her guardian. And then she found out her parents were already dead. Then she finds out Lee is dying. And she probably thinks it was all her fault no less.
She already had a enough trauma to work through for an entire season. You had nice and stable guardians in Omid and Christa. And the kid she could identify and bond with was Sarah. Between all that, they had everything they needed to write a story about Clem coping with her losses with the help of kindly and kindred people trying to give her a semblance of happiness again, and what did they do? They jumped past the most turbulent years in Clementine's life, ditch Omid and Christa less than ten minutes in, and used Sarah as a prop to demonstrate how "badass" Clem is.
Hate to sound so pessimistic, but really, at this point I'm just grateful Season 1 was as masterful as it was. I'm not expecting it to happen again. =/
It says enough that in a certain other thread, several of us had already been opting for the consolation prize, the mercy killing of the story, hoping for a respectable final wrap up and send off to it and the series rather than want to continue on in the same tedious direction and into the doldrums of a third season.
Frankly, as the season progressed, everything continued to feel increasingly all the more surreal, disconnected, dream-like, and distorted when looking all the way back to that point when "16 months later" flashed across the screen, almost as if I'd been falling endlessly down a deep rabbit hole. I'd grown weary of it. "My eyes are bleeding and my heart is leaving here," as a screaming Ronnie James put it in an old Rainbow song. "Take me back!"
To wit, consider In The Pines (for that matter, consider also the iconic SI music that plays immediately before the menu screen), something if quite poignant and touching, ultimately bitter in taste when one realises that its moving and sympathetic tune and words evoking the picture of the vulnerable and struggling orphaned Clementine, conflicted and alone and suffering in her forlornness and distress, have no place in the whole of the game.
I was clearly aware that it wasn't owing to much of anything from my static experience playing her through the course of this story (prologue and season finale excepted) that the song could elicit the empathetic response it did from me, unless you count sad regret for the song's emotion having no real place here except in the credits in a place of banishment. It evoked strong emotions that I nonetheless know were forced, materialising only because the music triggered past memories of her that I instinctively might have then tried projecting in her direction within her present role and incarnation.
This was all due to the absence from the game of essential character dynamics, coherence, consistency (with the past no less than within the present), progression, development, growth, realism, a strict shunning of exaggeration, the very things that by combining to produce strong and robust characterisation actually bring Clementine's personal struggles, vulnerabilities, distress, and inner suffering to the fore and present them to us,
I could not connect the two, the attitudes underlying the song and the game; they were clearly mismatched and incongruous. Alas, poor Clementine, but deep inside you had not "caused me to weep, caused me to moan." What was only in my memory of you had done so, that and whatever of you in this season was able to force something of that sentiment out of me only through its conscious, manipulative assistance. The song felt more like a funeral dirge for the strong spirit of writing that fashioned her character and would have presented her evolution to us convincingly and in a compelling way, a manner of writing that in its absence has made her unrecognisable.
I'm sure that in some parallel reality out there, the game is being ret-conned, or rather entirely excised out of existence, and that the company is secretly starting over, working on the Season II of high calibre that should have been, and taking place right after the events of the 1st season.
They release a surprise trailer announcing this with grand fanfare, and in a note of joyous consolation announcing the new game and our deliverance and exodus out from this season's dark Wonderland dream and back to our dearly prized character as we once recognised her, Dio's voice jubilantly erupts with the first opening seconds of the trailer at the fade-in: "I see a rainbow rising, look there, on the horizon, and I'm coming home! I'm coming home! I'm coming hooooome!"
(6:44) Yes, I always look for a cheap excuse to post music. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVXy1OhaERY#t=6m44s
Truly heartbreaking. As I said about half way through season two, when I recognized the telltale signs of an increasingly steep downhill slide, I'll just have to delete season two and convince myself that season one was a standalone masterpiece that never needed and never shall have a sequel. Unless they convince me otherwise with an equally masterful season three, then I left my Clementine sitting on a log reflecting on the man she had just left inside a jewelry store and squinting at the two passerby's that I'll never be able to identify outside of my hopes and wants for her.
I see no way around this: Season II has to be redone. Someone should promptly replace Lee in this video with Vanaman, and then have the old fanbase spam the man's inbox with it as a form of mass petitioning.
"It's no good. Vanaman's gonna die and Clementine's gonna be left all alone in a sequel full of awful scripting. It's over."
"To Hell with this!"
"You think you can quit, Vanaman? The Hulk ain't gonna let you quit. Turning into a zombie is a rainbow compared to 30 seconds in the ring with me. Now GET UP, GET UP! GET UP!"
(But it is genuinely sad where things have reached with the series. Treating myself to a little levity is likely all I have at this point to counter the disappointment.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBC9D0IRj3o
Ironically I actually like surreal, distorted, dream-like games. No More Heroes and Conker's Bad Fur Day are my two of my favorite games because they go out of their way to defy any sense of logic. But... that's not what I was expecting for a follow-up to The Walking Dead game. Actually thinking about though, S2 seems to work better if you picture it as some kind of dying dream or purgatory Clementine is enduring.
That would explain all the massive plot holes and leaps in logic at very least. Maybe the cabin grew are actually projections representing different parts of Clementine. She's actually still lying in the forest, dying from a combination of malnutrition, blood loss, and an infected gash on her arm.
...
Hmm, maybe I should drop some acid and give season two another chance. =D
In completely honesty how detrimental do you think it was for season two when they lost Vanaman?
Fuck I got the wrong ending!
PS. I'll grab the strips and we'll give it a go ~_0
Well, I guess that's one way to make a story seem better than it actually is.
I think it's possible for Telltale to re-do S2, but I really don't see them doing it anytime soon, mostly because, S2 is very mixed in the general consensus. Some people love S2 and don't think it needs fixing, some people hate S2 and want a remake, and then there's people who thought S2 was a fun ride but completely failed to achieve the same impact that S1 gave them, I for one think S2 needs real hard reworking in quite a lot of areas, but I don't think Telltale believe in remakes and I think it would be a waste of time to them at least, all I can hope for is that S3 goes back to the glory days of S1 and feels more like an actual sequel with some thought and genuine effort put into it, rather just going by the book and going down a check list on what to put in a Walking Dead episode, and I could probably do without writers who really don't give a shit about the story and characters and just do what the notes say....I'm looking at you Pierre Shortee.
I'll just say that I'm still deciding which has hit me harder, Vanaman's departure, or that of Dave Grossman and company.
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/79296/dave-grossman-leaves-ttg-same-as-mike-stemmle-jake-sean-too-why-is-everyone-leaving
I'm not sure why you'd ask the question. Obviously I think it was seriously detrimental. From my point of view, the Walking Dead was expected to be a single, continuous project and story in multiple stages that would span the full length of more than a season, remaining connected through every successive chapter, with the first episode of the new season through a solid link with both the events and spirit of the first, coming across more as a sixth episode of that first season.
Especially with the conclusion of Season I, I drew no satisfaction in regarding that season as merely a standalone piece. It certainly offered closure to an extent, but it likewise clearly signalled a continuation and demanded it. I couldn't help but conclude with the way it had closed that Vanaman had a larger vision in mind, a plot and narrative on a grander scale planned that he was intending to pursue and realise by moving ahead with the story.
For such a project, you naturally would be loath to have the work delegated to a new party. Rather, one would rely on and expect of those who had contributed to that vision through crucial writing execution to be the ones who would follow through and successfully carry the story's momentum forward, give it a solid direction to follow, and bring its spirit faithfully across to the next greater chapter.
Jaded X Gamer mentioned Vanaman 'talk[ing] about how he had that song that plays during the credits of S1 in his head when was writing it, trying to perfectly build up [the greater narrative] to that climax he could so clearly see. He had very definite goals he wanted to accomplish with his story'.
And above all, it is the spirit of the whole enterprise, of the story and Clementine, that has changed the most. I've mentioned before how I could see this most clearly illustrated in how the game sharply contrasted with its music, so hearing this about Vanaman really says a lot to me. That he not only was the original writer who crafted the first season, but especially that he also was a man who would let the spirit of a musical piece primarily inform his writing--and what a great approach to the task that counts as for me--makes him very much the man in whom I would have gladly placed my trust in continuing this story.
(One gripe: I honestly never enjoyed the closing credits song to the Season I finale: I'd have much preferred In the Pines. My choice of most suitable music to inspire the writing?: Pines, the entire Clementine Suite, and a magnificent piece by Dinah Washington):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmEhO1OiEkY
And following from that mention of music, woe betide the day Jared Emerson Johnson, whose work in the business harkens back to days in the company of the great Clint Bajakian, should ever turn heel and follow in the trail of those who have left the company.
It's not unrealistic. When you live in the apocalypse you tend to toughen up a lot more.
I don't see how this wasn't realistic, it's not that difficult to kick a door down especially if it's pretty old, who knows how old that door is :x Not to mention Walkers were weakening it for hours.
It felt pretty forced. Jane says "PUT SOME MUSCLE INTO IT!" rather than, y'know, putting her own muscle into it.
You want Clem to be a 'strong female character', let her show some backbone and tell people off for trying to control her. Don't force her to be constantly submissive towards Kenny during the moments that really matter - where's the option where you're apathetic about his death? If you're the kind of person who took glee in seeing Carver's mutilation and found no problem with letting a teenage girl get eaten alive, why would you be brought to tears about shooting someone who's already made clear that they're out of control?