Christa vs Troy Morals or Morsels in the ZA
CrazyGeorge
Banned
So here is what we know.
Troy slapped Clementine a few times, hit her with a AK47 (det), saved her life (det), kicks her when she is sleeping etc whatever.
Christa shot and killed Michelle who was unarmed in a bathroom.
Now Troy Haters/Christa lovers please explain to me why this behavior is acceptable, and it was completely justified that Jane shoot/murder Troy in their escape heist or for Christa to murder Michelle.
Lee would say.... "killing is bad no matter what." So i think a lot of you need to remember there isn't anyone that is innocent in the ZA anymore.
The only good people are dead. Like Sarah, she was a good person who never hurt anyone, and now she is dead because it, her "weakness" got her killed.
Seems a little hypocritical to me.
Comments
Because Michelle just killed her husband and the father of her soon to be born child. Shooting her was completely justified...
Anyone can justify murder.
Lee can say that guy was sleeping with his wife.
Lilly shot Carley because she was angry
So then why do we have life sentences then? Why don't we just execute prisoners.
so you agree its hypocritical, but its one of those things
Do as i say, not as i do
Well you can't have a life sentence in a zombie apocalypse, unless you've got a set-up like the one Carver had. Life sentences require infrastructure in place to keep the prisoner alive. Otherwise, you're just slowly starving someone to death.
Do you feel that there were any justified killings in the game? Was killing Carver justified? What about Andy and Danny St. John?
I didn't kill any of them. Well i didn't participate.
Luke was right, how can you sit there and kill Carver, then act like your better than him.
Christa was wrong to kill Michelle, but you can understand why she did. A bit like Lee and the senator.
Christa kept Clem alive single handedly for 16 monhts, 4 times as long as lee and 54 times as long as Kenny if you choose his ending.
That's incredible. I don't understand why you pointed out Troy saving Clem's life once and not that.
Like i said before, you can always justify killing someone.
Christa killed Michelle because she shot Omid, understandable.
Lee can drop ben in S1, because he is a "danger" to the group.
Doesn't make it right, i guess the point i'm trying to make is that no one is innocent. Everyone in this game that is currently alive hasn't made the best choices, or done the most moralistic thing. Even Clementine has had her share of screw ups. She owned them though, that is what i like about her. She doesn't live in denial. From what the writers have portrayed is that you have to be a monster to survive in the ZA, and that my friend is the saddest thing about this game series to me.
Speculation, we do not know that they were together for the entire time, or what their time was like. For all we know she could of turned into a bitter resentful woman, who hates Clementine, and resents her for Omid's death.
Well, she obviously did turn into a bitter woman and the fact that she doesn't seem to like Clem bringing up Omid implies some level of resentment there, but it's clear that she still cares dearly for the girl. When being held at gunpoint by a group of what appear to be bandits and asked where her group is, she lied and claimed to be by herself. Then, if the bandits notice Clementine and stab Christa in the leg for lying to them, the first words out of Christa's mouth was to tell Clem to run. That shows that she's a good person who cares for Clementine's well-being above her own, despite her bitterness.
Because Carver killed people for getting in his way or for being weak. It isn't really the same thing at all. Carver needed to be killed. He was a danger to the group. Simply walking away and letting him live would have been a huge mistake in regards to ensuring the group's safety from his threat.
I know it doesn't make it right. I explicitly stated: 'Christa was wrong to kill Michelle'.
Well, it's a fair assumption that in the 16 month gap between us seeing Christa alone with Clem and Christa alone with Clem that she looked after her.
We know she doesn't hate Clementine as she risks her life to save her by lying to the bandits about being alone.
No Carver killed people because he lost his temper... Sound familiar.
Do I think Troy's actions were bad? Kind of.
Was Troy a dick? Yeah.
Was Christa killing Michelle bad? Not really.
Did Michelle deserve it? Yes.
Call me soft-hearted, but the fact that it was an honest accident, and she was genuinely remorseful actually made me sympathetic towards Michelle.
But Michelle is the hard nosed teen killer. So the brave and valiant Christa came forth and defeated her foe in unarmed combat.
I guess my biggest deal is people rip on Nate for being a monster, and give people like Christa a free pass.
I hated Christa.
I don't hate Christa, i found her to be annoying at times though.
I hated her, found her annoying, depressing, and rude. Omid was the only reason I even some what liked her.
You really think Carver was who he was simply because he had anger issues..? His actions were clearly predicated on him being a dictator and having a harsh/cruel mentality in regards to rebuilding society. Obviously anger is a part of it, but there is so much more to it than that.
We don't know that Kenny killed Carver straight up because of anger. I think his anger did cause him to go about it in the way that he did, but Carver needed to be killed regardless. As for the player choice of supporting Kenny in this matter, that obviously doesn't have to be reliant upon emotion.
I think Carver had a bad temper, and a controlling personality. In the beginning of episode 3, he makes a comment about not listening to his conversation to Clementine, and she responds with "I know." He loses his temper and smacks the crap out of her.
Another example is when Carver is giving his speech and Sarah starts talking. The game shows Carver losing his patience, and then orders Carlos to smack his daughter.
Kenny is then caught with the radio, and is giving it back to him. A guy that Kenny knows is dangerous. What does Kenny say when he drops the radio in his hand...
At that moment, you see crazy in Carvers eyes.
The way he killed Carver, shows that it was out of anger. He destroyed his face. Kenny also shot him in the kneecaps which is a very painful place to be shot.
Why?
Its funny, because I interpret Michelle as being an older version of Clementine for those who went the "Sassy Survivalist" route with her. In the scene itself its made pretty clear that Michelle isn't a bad person, just a damaged kid acting like a selfish asshole because that's how she thinks she has to be. Hell, she probably learned that behavior from a guardian or a former group member of hers.
OmitMoralsForOmid
or it probably happened to her itself.
Victims victimizing victims.
Like I said, anger is definitely part of it. That being said, his violent expression of his anger directly ties into his philosophy on life, as well as the fact that he is a ruthless dictator. The fact that he can let his anger consume him and then feel no sorrow/shame afterwards speaks to that. We see this in his justification for what he did to Reggie... proving that he isn't just some guy that doesn't know how to keep his cool. Carver's anger is only part of the package in regards to who he is as an overall person. It doesn't compare to Carver's ruthlessness.
I already addressed that: "I think his anger did cause him to go about it in the way that he did". I'm only saying that there is no way for us to know that Kenny killed him out of straight up anger and nothing else.
And regardless, even if Kenny did kill him out of anger, we have to keep the context in mind here. Carver had nearly beaten Kenny to death. It could be argued that Kenny was lucky to even walk away from that situation. Kenny's action of justifiable revenge isn't equatable to Carver killing innocent people.
He was a danger to the group. They needed to make sure he never hurt them again... or anyone else for that matter.
I always felt bad for Michelle anyway, because it was obvious she was just a kid playing tough thinking it was how she'd survive in the world and it was clear she had never murdered someone before judging by her panicked reaction after shooting Omid. I hate that she killed him, but I don't hate her guts and wish her to burn in hell forever or whatnot.
I feel like Michelle was a parallel to someone Clementine could have been, or may become someday. Maybe she was like Clementine at one point and had people looking out for her, but whoever those people may have been are probably dead now and she's on her own. Perhaps they even taught her to act the way she did when she was going through Clem's stuff...I think about the possibilities to her backstory a lot.
Yep, that too. A lot of possibilities. Of course we'll never know the truth because Christa killed her : / (AFTER she dropped the gun and raised her hands in surrender).
We don't know why he did what he did to Reggie. Only Carver really knows. I personally think Carver was still sore about George, and his compounding failures sent Carver over the edge in anger.
He is not the reason why Sarita, Luke, Sarah, Carlos, Jane (det.), and everyone else is dead. If they would of just stayed put, and did as they're told they could of all been alive.
I chuckled hard at this, haha. Yes. MORALS DON'T APPLY WHEN IT COMES TO OMID!
I think the primary difference is that Troy voluntarily acted as a madman's henchman and seemed to take pleasure in beating little girls, even making a weird almost paedophilic comment at the beginning of In Harm's Way. He saved Clementine's life just so he could beat on her some more, and he knew Carver would probably be pissed if he let her get killed. He was nearly lulled into joining the group on their escape purely because of Jane offering sex and happily forced people into labour against their will. That's how I see it anyway.
Christa made a primal, instinctive move after seeing her closest loved one gunned down before her. It wasn't right but it doesn't really compare to the likes of Troy's actions.
Christa acted immorally out of anger and distress. Not even turning to look at Michelle because she was still so distraught at her dead husband lying on the ground. Nate reveled in the old couple's murder, echoing the words of the psycho that Russell just told him about, grinning as he shot them, and then casually walking over to their supplies and marveling at what a good haul it was. The former acted out of sheer emotional suffering, the latter acted out of a sociopathic indifference.
Have to be honest, I didnt get slapped by troy once and even on replays I didnt particularly care; oh and fuck that Michelle bitch hope she enjoys being a walker
Seeing it like that, I actually feel bad for her
Actually, Ben tells him to let him go, and even tries to force him to, but I understand your point.
Yes we do. Carver explains why he did what he did on two occasions. One after he initially throws Reggie off the roof, and a second time when you talk to him in his office. Bonnie also tells you that Carver basically just shrugged it off as something that needed to be done.
I never said he was the reason why they are dead. He would have been a potential danger to them if left alive. He had already violently captured and held the group as prisoners on one occasion. He was a clear enemy. He would never stop going after Rebecca and "his" baby.
Well Christa shooting her boyfriend's murderer doesn't make her a bad person. Lee killed, and he is a good person. Clementine has killed (optional) and from what i see she's a good person. Killing is bad no matter what, but sometimes you have too in a ZA i guess.
But she held a defenseless kid at gunpoint too.
It's not hard to see why Christa reacted in a moment of passion. Her morality would probably have been more of a focal point if we were given anything but spite to feel for Michelle. The only characterization we had from her was the fact that she felt absolutely no remorse over robbing a child at gunpoint, and nearly every line she had was needlessly cruel.
Shooting Omid may not have been intentional, but she was already threatening to shoot an unarmed kid when it happened.
My interpretation of Lee never said that. I'm against killing for the sake of it, but I think it's self-righteous to look down upon those who are driven to kill in self-defense. Life has an inherent value to it, but I'm not going to condemn someone for stopping serial killers like the Saint Johns.
You could argue that killing Carver would have been the 'right' thing to do. He was one who hurt countless others, and if left unchecked, would definitely have hurt many more. If they let him go, who's to say he won't escape, start another camp, and turn it into another dictatorship, with another set of victims locked up in a pen just like the Cabin group? I don't like killing characters, and if given the choice, I would save almost everyone from the series from death if I could (even people like Troy, if they were willing to change, There are even fanfics available which depict him surviving and joining the main group).
But, sadly, occasionally, paraphrasing Lee, you just have to hurt someone else to protect the ones you care about. I don't like the quote, I wish it weren't true, but what about people like Carver? You can't just lock him away unfortunately.
I'm not familiar with 400 days, so what did Nate do that made him so horrible?
From what I've read from the wiki, Nate was an unpredictable individual. Warm for a second, convoluted and murderous in the next. He was unstable, and a potential danger to whoever he met.
I think one of the reasons why most give Christa a free pass is because she is not normally an unstable person. Nor a cold killer. She was grieving hard, and acted out in a moment of passion. She wouldn't take pleasure in wanton killing, unlike some other characters. Afterwards she still took care of Clementine, despite her resentment (possibly) towards her. Plus, the person Christa killed isn't exactly know to be much of a nice person. What Christa did may not have been right, but can be forgiven, given the circumstances.
As far as I know, Nate was much more prone to violence and would have been far more likely to act out and hurt others. He was more malicious by nature, thus people give him the cold shoulder.