While it may be true that the Joel and Ellie relationship was the true story of TLOU but it can also be said that the Clem and Lee relations… morehip was the true story of TWD yet TWD had a much more original backdrop then TLOU did.
In TWD they were trying to get to Savannah to get to the ocean for safety while in TLOU they go with oh let's just save the world.
I actually didn't like Ellie as much as Clementine to be honest. Her whole witty, sarcastic, teen attitude annoyed me and I only liked her when she matured in the third act. I feel like TLOU is more of an action packed game while TWD relies more on emotion. The Last Of Us is fun to play and a good game but no where near as good as The Walking Dead
Player choice? When the hell did the game advertise player choice? Of course you're not going to tell Ellie the truth, because you're not playing your own story, you're playing Naughty Dog's story, don't try to make your opinion of said story arc into an actual flaw with the game's design, you're complaining about the wrong kind of game, if you want to complain about that, then complain about TWD S2.
Edit: Oh my god, this post ended up being so long....
First off, even though it's satirical, THE BEST GAMERS bring up some valid points.
… more Second, you don't care about gameplay in a game? WAT WAT WAAAAAAAT
Third, that thirty minute video you point out is incredibly boring. I honestly can't go through it, because it might as well read from the back of the box and I'll have learned just as much about the game.
If I wanted to waste my time with a TLOU video, but have some actual critical thinking to it, I'll go to Matthewmatosis.
Third, TLOU is nothing special. It's run of the mill third person shooter with action set pieces like Uncharted or the new Tomb Raider. The story is nothing new. It's a generic mix between Walking Dead and Children of Men. Ellie herself isn't anything special either. Just because she ties her shoes at some points doesn't make it a deep 11/mountaindew gaem of yer. All games have touches like that.
I actually t… [view original content]
Player choice? When the hell did the game advertise player choice? Of course you're not going to tell Ellie the truth, because you're not pl… moreaying your own story, you're playing Naughty Dog's story, don't try to make your opinion of said story arc into an actual flaw with the game's design, you're complaining about the wrong kind of game, if you want to complain about that, then complain about TWD S2.
If TLOU was a book or a film then I wouldn't have cared, but a video game is by definition interactive. If all you have is a tired linear cover-based shooter with some stealth thrown in for the hell of it and a narrative you can't have any effect on then that's already a red flag for me, because it kills replayability. Going through a roller coaster path with action setpieces like running away from a tank or something will never be as fun the second around if it ever was to begin with, because it doesn't demand a whole lot of you.
As for player choice? Well, here's the thing. When I buy a game called Hitman, I expect a game where I play as a Hitman. An assassin for hire. Questioning why I wouldn't be able to spare my targets would be ludicrous, because the entire premise of the game is to feel like a hired killer. What I do expect however is doing assassin things, you know? Choosing your weapons, finding your way in and out, looking for creative ways to eleminate targets and so on. Makes sense so far, right?
So in comes The Last of Us. A game all about survival. That's the entire theme of the game, right? That's the whole reason why it's Joel and Ellie and who some other dudes versus the world. So why can't I choose to sacrifice Ellie for the sake of humanity? That fits in with the whole survival thing. I get that the whole point is to bond with Ellie, but there's no excuse to not involve THE PLAYER in a major decision like this. Instead they force you into one path which you just know they only did to make a sequel. Argue all you want about Naughty Dog wanting to tell its own story and Joel being its own character, but again TLOU isn't a book or a movie. If the player character is doing something out of your control and against your will then something is wrong.
As for things we were promised? Well, the game did show us some promising enemy AI that could work together in a very natural way, but as you can see from Hyperbithero's video it wasn't included in the final product.
Player choice? When the hell did the game advertise player choice? Of course you're not going to tell Ellie the truth, because you're not pl… moreaying your own story, you're playing Naughty Dog's story, don't try to make your opinion of said story arc into an actual flaw with the game's design, you're complaining about the wrong kind of game, if you want to complain about that, then complain about TWD S2.
Your definition of what a game should be is very different to mine. Why are you restricting games to the point that they absolutely need to have likeable protagonists that only do exactly what the player would do? That's ridiculous. In both (very fun) Prototype games for example you play as insane, murderous infected people but that doesn't detract from the experience in any way, it instead adds to it. You have no choice but to consume innocent people and cause chaos around the entire city.
Not everyone actually gives a shit about having choice while playing a game. That's not the point. As long as it's an engrossing interactive experience then it's ticked all the necessary boxes. Spec Ops: The Line is one of my favourite games of all time and SPOILER whether you like it or not you become a war criminal by the end. SPOILER
If you're obsessed with choice during gameplay then The Last of Us provides you with that. The AI is generally very smart, albeit inconsistently so, and there are multiple ways in which you can approach situations. Giving the player the option to save humanity would be foolish considering that'd contradict Joel's characterization and would reduce the game's theme into something overly cliché.
Sometimes games just tell fantastic stories, and directly have you along for the ride. And there's nothing wrong with that. You don't always play the hero either, and you don't always sympathize with the primary character.
If TLOU was a book or a film then I wouldn't have cared, but a video game is by definition interactive. If all you have is a tired linear co… morever-based shooter with some stealth thrown in for the hell of it and a narrative you can't have any effect on then that's already a red flag for me, because it kills replayability. Going through a roller coaster path with action setpieces like running away from a tank or something will never be as fun the second around if it ever was to begin with, because it doesn't demand a whole lot of you.
As for player choice? Well, here's the thing. When I buy a game called Hitman, I expect a game where I play as a Hitman. An assassin for hire. Questioning why I wouldn't be able to spare my targets would be ludicrous, because the entire premise of the game is to feel like a hired killer. What I do expect however is doing assassin things, you know? Choosing your weapons, finding your way in and out, looking for cr… [view original content]
Wait asking for some amount of player choice as opposed to a choice the game makes for me is a restriction? I'm not asking for much, I'm only asking for consistency. I'm okay with battling bandits, but when i'm forced to switch sides I expect a good reason behind it. It would be interesting if this choice was made by the player. Either go with his emotions or the most logical one. It would also make for a great discussion topic on what would be the right choice to make.
Instead I'm forced with the emotional decision that some players may not agree with. The player character is someone your portal in the game. Again, I want consistency. I don't care if you're the bad guy or good guy or switched sides, but if again if the player character makes a decision against your will out of your control then maybe it should have been a choice for the player to make. It creates a disconnect that really shouldn't be there.
Your definition of what a game should be is very different to mine. Why are you restricting games to the point that they absolutely need to … morehave likeable protagonists that only do exactly what the player would do? That's ridiculous. In both (very fun) Prototype games for example you play as insane, murderous infected people but that doesn't detract from the experience in any way, it instead adds to it. You have no choice but to consume innocent people and cause chaos around the entire city.
Not everyone actually gives a shit about having choice while playing a game. That's not the point. As long as it's an engrossing interactive experience then it's ticked all the necessary boxes. Spec Ops: The Line is one of my favourite games of all time and SPOILER whether you like it or not you become a war criminal by the end. SPOILER
If you're obsessed with choice during gameplay then The Last of Us provides you with that. The AI is generally ver… [view original content]
Not every game needs choices! I don't always want to BE the player character. Sometimes I want him to be his own person. Most of the time I do. I don't want to play as Hazzer in every single game.
Wait asking for some amount of player choice as opposed to a choice the game makes for me is a restriction? I'm not asking for much, I'm onl… morey asking for consistency. I'm okay with battling bandits, but when i'm forced to switch sides I expect a good reason behind it. It would be interesting if this choice was made by the player. Either go with his emotions or the most logical one. It would also make for a great discussion topic on what would be the right choice to make.
Instead I'm forced with the emotional decision that some players may not agree with. The player character is someone your portal in the game. Again, I want consistency. I don't care if you're the bad guy or good guy or switched sides, but if again if the player character makes a decision against your will out of your control then maybe it should have been a choice for the player to make. It creates a disconnect that really shouldn't be there.
You're asking to have full control of a choice in the game, when the game WAS NOT ADVERTISING PLAYER CHOICE, Hitman and Last of Us are both extremely different games, comparing them is stupid since Last of Us isn't going for that game design. I've played plenty of games where the protagonist did something I didn't want, but I didn't whine about it and claim there was a problem with the game design, that's just a personal nitpick on my part, if the game was advertising full on interactive player choice, then I would agree with you, but it wasn't, it was advertising a full on cinematic experience with a linear path and a linear story, whether or not you cared for Joel's decision is completely subjective and your fault, not really the game's. As for Hyperbit's video, he's not that reliable, as plenty of people have pointed out that all the glitches Hyperbit was showing in his game didn't show up in theirs, so it was more of a problem that not alot of people had.
If TLOU was a book or a film then I wouldn't have cared, but a video game is by definition interactive. If all you have is a tired linear co… morever-based shooter with some stealth thrown in for the hell of it and a narrative you can't have any effect on then that's already a red flag for me, because it kills replayability. Going through a roller coaster path with action setpieces like running away from a tank or something will never be as fun the second around if it ever was to begin with, because it doesn't demand a whole lot of you.
As for player choice? Well, here's the thing. When I buy a game called Hitman, I expect a game where I play as a Hitman. An assassin for hire. Questioning why I wouldn't be able to spare my targets would be ludicrous, because the entire premise of the game is to feel like a hired killer. What I do expect however is doing assassin things, you know? Choosing your weapons, finding your way in and out, looking for cr… [view original content]
Seriously though, it's like going to be the best smash yet, and smash is already hype as fuck. There's no way anything comes close to the Wii U after smash 4 hits.
It's true, Melee was my favorite, I literally only played the demo of the 3DS version for smash 4, and I already like it better than melee, plus the Wii U version looks sexy as fuck.
ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!
SECRET OF THE MAGIC CRYSTAL IS THE BEST GAME EVER MADE, YOU FILTHY HERETIC! YOU CAN GROOM PONIES IN IT.
ET HAS SHIT AI AND SECRET OF THE MAGIC CRYSTAL IS FLAWLESS.
Jesus christ, I'm not comparing those games. I'm saying certain games raises certain EXPECTATIONS. If you give me a game about a Hitman, let me be a hitman and let me choose my way on how to do it. If you give me a game about a thief, let me be a thief and let me choose my way how to do it. If you give me a game about a survivor in Zombie popcorn land, let me be one and let me choose my way how to it. This was somewhat accomplished with gameplay with choosing how to deal with enemies even though that's the most minimal you could do, sometimes even putting restrictions on that. COUGH INVISIBLE SNIPER COUGH
I've never played a game where the protoganist made a choice on his own or doing a complete 360 without it making at least some kind of sense. Of course, having full control of you character at all times even during cinematics would be beneficial to most games, but all I'm asking here is some involvement from the player toward the end. It's weird how such a major decision can't be influenced at all. If anything it would have the made choice to rescue Ellie and to take care of her a lot more powerful. So advertising had nothing to with this. In fact, most of the time features are often hastily removed or put back in and the Last of Us is no exception. Again, going back to the AI that works together shown at E3. What we were promised wasn't in the game so that point is moot. Speculate all you want about Hyperbit using glitches, but you can't say that the AI wasn't dumbed down from what we first saw.
It would have been a nice little surprise at end for a lot of players. I just don't want to watch a movie while playing games (I know ironic coming from a Telltale fan, but hey at least their movies don't cost sixty dollars). Again, not asking for a lot, exceptdon'tdoitwithbuttonprompts. I'm asking for two paths maximum 1. have Joel escape without Ellie knowing he'll never see again, but doing something in favor of mankind or 2. have Joel escape with her. Yes, it is a problem with game design, because it makes me think that Naughty Dog was lazy, fell in love with Ellie and didn't want her dead or somebody smelled money and wanted it to not be sequel-proof.
Also, cinematic experience? Really? We're taking that seriously? I thought that was a joke to most people....
You're asking to have full control of a choice in the game, when the game WAS NOT ADVERTISING PLAYER CHOICE, Hitman and Last of Us are both … moreextremely different games, comparing them is stupid since Last of Us isn't going for that game design. I've played plenty of games where the protagonist did something I didn't want, but I didn't whine about it and claim there was a problem with the game design, that's just a personal nitpick on my part, if the game was advertising full on interactive player choice, then I would agree with you, but it wasn't, it was advertising a full on cinematic experience with a linear path and a linear story, whether or not you cared for Joel's decision is completely subjective and your fault, not really the game's. As for Hyperbit's video, he's not that reliable, as plenty of people have pointed out that all the glitches Hyperbit was showing in his game didn't show up in theirs, so it was more of a problem that not alot of people had.
Uh, yeah the cinematic experience is what Naughty Dog was going for, same thing with their Uncharted trilogy as well. I wouldn't say the A.I was dumbed down, it was more of a cinematic sequence with scripted events to hype the game, still kind of low on ND's and Sony's part, but the final product isn't much of a disaster as Hyperbit thinks. Last Of Us wasn't really advertising itself as a complex RPG, so it's no Day Z, but what's there is fine. Um, okay, you're free to think that ND didn't kill Ellie because they wanted a sequel(don't you think maybe ND didn't want to go for the generic and over done ending of the "father" or daughter" dieing in the end?) but that still isn't a problem with the game design, that's just YOUR OPINION, you're pouring your opinion of said story arc and acting like it's an objective flaw, when in reality it's just a personal nitpick that you're blowing out of proportion., and besides the whole "Joel made the wrong choice" discussion, is VERY DEBATABLE, there's no objective answer.
Jesus christ, I'm not comparing those games. I'm saying certain games raises certain EXPECTATIONS. If you give me a game about a Hitman, let… more me be a hitman and let me choose my way on how to do it. If you give me a game about a thief, let me be a thief and let me choose my way how to do it. If you give me a game about a survivor in Zombie popcorn land, let me be one and let me choose my way how to it. This was somewhat accomplished with gameplay with choosing how to deal with enemies even though that's the most minimal you could do, sometimes even putting restrictions on that. COUGH INVISIBLE SNIPER COUGH
I've never played a game where the protoganist made a choice on his own or doing a complete 360 without it making at least some kind of sense. Of course, having full control of you character at all times even during cinematics would be beneficial to most games, but all I'm asking here is some involvement from the player toward the end. It… [view original content]
Can't be a traitor for having an opinion. Both are absolutely fantastic games, nothing to be ashamed or worried about (though I wasn't a huge fan of Left Behind).
Can't be a traitor for having an opinion. Both are absolutely fantastic games, nothing to be ashamed or worried about (though I wasn't a huge fan of Left Behind).
Why pick a side? They both are my favorite games of all time. I remember with nostalgia when I finished TWD Season 1, began watching the VGA Awards in 2012 hoping TWD would win Game of the Year (which they did!) and they showed a teaser for TLOU and I was totally looking forward to it because it kind of reminded me of TWD, that was one of my happiest moments as a gamer. I don't get why people tend to be like: Either you're with them or with us. Happens the same with Sony VS Microsoft (Or Nintendo VS Sega, or Sony VS Nintendo, or Microsoft VS Nintendo), Pokemon VS Digimon, Coke VS Pepsi, etc. It's ridiculous. Enjoy both!
Comments
So "save the world" is vastly more cliché than "survive the apocalypse"? I... don't think so.
Question time again! What did you think about the smooch?
I actually didn't like Ellie as much as Clementine to be honest. Her whole witty, sarcastic, teen attitude annoyed me and I only liked her when she matured in the third act. I feel like TLOU is more of an action packed game while TWD relies more on emotion. The Last Of Us is fun to play and a good game but no where near as good as The Walking Dead
I thought it was cute, and I liked how they included it. :P Can't believe all the drama it's created.
Which one? :P Great points are made in both, I just think the Irish dude occasionally brings up little nuances that don't actually matter much.
Yiss, we can have both. x3 I just like the discussion involved in comparing them.
The one who was convinced to have a kid from playing TLOU :P He got into the game as much as I did.
Right? People were going nuts over the kiss. I thought it was adorable.
Player choice? When the hell did the game advertise player choice? Of course you're not going to tell Ellie the truth, because you're not playing your own story, you're playing Naughty Dog's story, don't try to make your opinion of said story arc into an actual flaw with the game's design, you're complaining about the wrong kind of game, if you want to complain about that, then complain about TWD S2.
Hooah!
If TLOU was a book or a film then I wouldn't have cared, but a video game is by definition interactive. If all you have is a tired linear cover-based shooter with some stealth thrown in for the hell of it and a narrative you can't have any effect on then that's already a red flag for me, because it kills replayability. Going through a roller coaster path with action setpieces like running away from a tank or something will never be as fun the second around if it ever was to begin with, because it doesn't demand a whole lot of you.
As for player choice? Well, here's the thing. When I buy a game called Hitman, I expect a game where I play as a Hitman. An assassin for hire. Questioning why I wouldn't be able to spare my targets would be ludicrous, because the entire premise of the game is to feel like a hired killer. What I do expect however is doing assassin things, you know? Choosing your weapons, finding your way in and out, looking for creative ways to eleminate targets and so on. Makes sense so far, right?
So in comes The Last of Us. A game all about survival. That's the entire theme of the game, right? That's the whole reason why it's Joel and Ellie and who some other dudes versus the world. So why can't I choose to sacrifice Ellie for the sake of humanity? That fits in with the whole survival thing. I get that the whole point is to bond with Ellie, but there's no excuse to not involve THE PLAYER in a major decision like this. Instead they force you into one path which you just know they only did to make a sequel. Argue all you want about Naughty Dog wanting to tell its own story and Joel being its own character, but again TLOU isn't a book or a movie. If the player character is doing something out of your control and against your will then something is wrong.
As for things we were promised? Well, the game did show us some promising enemy AI that could work together in a very natural way, but as you can see from Hyperbithero's video it wasn't included in the final product.
So I'm not saying for the sake of hating, but am I the only who finds a creepy that this guy in the video wants a daughter because of a game?
Hardly creepy. TWD convinced me that having a kid would be a good idea.
Yeah, it really is an awesome analysis and I love the effort he put into it.
I'm also the type that gets incredibly immersed into games. :P
Your definition of what a game should be is very different to mine. Why are you restricting games to the point that they absolutely need to have likeable protagonists that only do exactly what the player would do? That's ridiculous. In both (very fun) Prototype games for example you play as insane, murderous infected people but that doesn't detract from the experience in any way, it instead adds to it. You have no choice but to consume innocent people and cause chaos around the entire city.
Not everyone actually gives a shit about having choice while playing a game. That's not the point. As long as it's an engrossing interactive experience then it's ticked all the necessary boxes. Spec Ops: The Line is one of my favourite games of all time and SPOILER whether you like it or not you become a war criminal by the end. SPOILER
If you're obsessed with choice during gameplay then The Last of Us provides you with that. The AI is generally very smart, albeit inconsistently so, and there are multiple ways in which you can approach situations. Giving the player the option to save humanity would be foolish considering that'd contradict Joel's characterization and would reduce the game's theme into something overly cliché.
Sometimes games just tell fantastic stories, and directly have you along for the ride. And there's nothing wrong with that. You don't always play the hero either, and you don't always sympathize with the primary character.
Wait asking for some amount of player choice as opposed to a choice the game makes for me is a restriction? I'm not asking for much, I'm only asking for consistency. I'm okay with battling bandits, but when i'm forced to switch sides I expect a good reason behind it. It would be interesting if this choice was made by the player. Either go with his emotions or the most logical one. It would also make for a great discussion topic on what would be the right choice to make.
Instead I'm forced with the emotional decision that some players may not agree with. The player character is someone your portal in the game. Again, I want consistency. I don't care if you're the bad guy or good guy or switched sides, but if again if the player character makes a decision against your will out of your control then maybe it should have been a choice for the player to make. It creates a disconnect that really shouldn't be there.
Not every game needs choices! I don't always want to BE the player character. Sometimes I want him to be his own person. Most of the time I do. I don't want to play as Hazzer in every single game.
You're asking to have full control of a choice in the game, when the game WAS NOT ADVERTISING PLAYER CHOICE, Hitman and Last of Us are both extremely different games, comparing them is stupid since Last of Us isn't going for that game design. I've played plenty of games where the protagonist did something I didn't want, but I didn't whine about it and claim there was a problem with the game design, that's just a personal nitpick on my part, if the game was advertising full on interactive player choice, then I would agree with you, but it wasn't, it was advertising a full on cinematic experience with a linear path and a linear story, whether or not you cared for Joel's decision is completely subjective and your fault, not really the game's. As for Hyperbit's video, he's not that reliable, as plenty of people have pointed out that all the glitches Hyperbit was showing in his game didn't show up in theirs, so it was more of a problem that not alot of people had.
Best Smash yet?! Heresy! Long live retro gaming!
It's true, Melee was my favorite, I literally only played the demo of the 3DS version for smash 4, and I already like it better than melee, plus the Wii U version looks sexy as fuck.
SofMC... I haven't heard that in a long time, My uncle told me it was the best game to play when you're high...
Jesus christ, I'm not comparing those games. I'm saying certain games raises certain EXPECTATIONS. If you give me a game about a Hitman, let me be a hitman and let me choose my way on how to do it. If you give me a game about a thief, let me be a thief and let me choose my way how to do it. If you give me a game about a survivor in Zombie popcorn land, let me be one and let me choose my way how to it. This was somewhat accomplished with gameplay with choosing how to deal with enemies even though that's the most minimal you could do, sometimes even putting restrictions on that. COUGH INVISIBLE SNIPER COUGH
I've never played a game where the protoganist made a choice on his own or doing a complete 360 without it making at least some kind of sense. Of course, having full control of you character at all times even during cinematics would be beneficial to most games, but all I'm asking here is some involvement from the player toward the end. It's weird how such a major decision can't be influenced at all. If anything it would have the made choice to rescue Ellie and to take care of her a lot more powerful. So advertising had nothing to with this. In fact, most of the time features are often hastily removed or put back in and the Last of Us is no exception. Again, going back to the AI that works together shown at E3. What we were promised wasn't in the game so that point is moot. Speculate all you want about Hyperbit using glitches, but you can't say that the AI wasn't dumbed down from what we first saw.
It would have been a nice little surprise at end for a lot of players. I just don't want to watch a movie while playing games (I know ironic coming from a Telltale fan, but hey at least their movies don't cost sixty dollars). Again, not asking for a lot, exceptdon'tdoitwithbuttonprompts. I'm asking for two paths maximum 1. have Joel escape without Ellie knowing he'll never see again, but doing something in favor of mankind or 2. have Joel escape with her. Yes, it is a problem with game design, because it makes me think that Naughty Dog was lazy, fell in love with Ellie and didn't want her dead or somebody smelled money and wanted it to not be sequel-proof.
Also, cinematic experience? Really? We're taking that seriously? I thought that was a joke to most people....
just curious....
Uh, yeah the cinematic experience is what Naughty Dog was going for, same thing with their Uncharted trilogy as well. I wouldn't say the A.I was dumbed down, it was more of a cinematic sequence with scripted events to hype the game, still kind of low on ND's and Sony's part, but the final product isn't much of a disaster as Hyperbit thinks. Last Of Us wasn't really advertising itself as a complex RPG, so it's no Day Z, but what's there is fine. Um, okay, you're free to think that ND didn't kill Ellie because they wanted a sequel(don't you think maybe ND didn't want to go for the generic and over done ending of the "father" or daughter" dieing in the end?) but that still isn't a problem with the game design, that's just YOUR OPINION, you're pouring your opinion of said story arc and acting like it's an objective flaw, when in reality it's just a personal nitpick that you're blowing out of proportion., and besides the whole "Joel made the wrong choice" discussion, is VERY DEBATABLE, there's no objective answer.
Can't be a traitor for having an opinion. Both are absolutely fantastic games, nothing to be ashamed or worried about (though I wasn't a huge fan of Left Behind).
I agree on all accounts, even the thing about Left Behind. I was only really into the stuff that involved saving Joel, not the flashback parts.
Why pick a side? They both are my favorite games of all time. I remember with nostalgia when I finished TWD Season 1, began watching the VGA Awards in 2012 hoping TWD would win Game of the Year (which they did!) and they showed a teaser for TLOU and I was totally looking forward to it because it kind of reminded me of TWD, that was one of my happiest moments as a gamer. I don't get why people tend to be like: Either you're with them or with us. Happens the same with Sony VS Microsoft (Or Nintendo VS Sega, or Sony VS Nintendo, or Microsoft VS Nintendo), Pokemon VS Digimon, Coke VS Pepsi, etc. It's ridiculous. Enjoy both!