Rousey has it right. It's not even remotely reasonable to expect her to still be small and innocent after what she's gone through. There'd be nothing "real" about a character like that. I would've enjoyed S2 far less had she somehow not grown as a character.
I don't think she's emotionless, after seeing No Going Back it just comes to show that she isn't. I love both S1 and S2 Clementine's. The problem I have with season 2 Clem, is how she responds to some of the characters you meet. Depending what choices you choose, she will sometimes spit out some pretty mean things. She can act hostile around newcomers. I mean these are just based on your choices and this might not count for everyone, but I sometimes feel like she needs to put up this cold façade in order to hide how broken she is. Another reason, is because everyone could be just used to seeing her as the innocent, scared little girl or because we are just suddenly thrown into playing her as an 11 year old. A 16 month gap was a little too big for my liking and we didn't get to see how Clementine evolved into this sassy 11 year old.
I still don't see at all how Jane is a "sociopath" (if you look up what a sociopath is, and how they act, Jane does not fit the bill, at all; she's still cold and manipulative, but one doesn't need to be a sociopath to have those traits), but I agree with everything else 100%.
I feel that she's underwritten. On the surface, I actually like the idea that she's been ground down into a resentful, repressed, miserable… more mess of a child.
But Season 2 should have been about that transformation, rather than using it as the starting point, because otherwise why not use a different child protagonist like Becca? The fact that she gets multiple endings is a sign that Telltale themselves didn't know where her character arc was meant to lead. Is she meant to become a nasty person because, according to the writers, that's the only way you can be? Does she become a 'tough' loner like the sociopathic Jane? Does she remain subservient to an emotionally abusive, unstable mess of a man?
And really, I'm quite pissed that the writers chose to use Sarah as a prop to show how 'badass' Clem (look at how all the grown-ups rely on her!) rather than actually letting Clem form a friendship with another child. That, along with Clem s… [view original content]
It's not that I dislike her. I love Clementine. But she was poorly written in Season 2.
For a protagonist, she's incredibly stagnant. The significant character change she goes through happens during a time we're not allowed to even see. In the events of Season 2, Clementine is just whisked up in other people's problems and performs tasks no person in their right mind would ever assign an eleven-year-old, regardless of how "capable" she seems in the week they've know her.
We're told Clementine is in danger of becoming like Carver, or we see her given choices that treat people like liabilities and leave them behind, but there's no build up to this. We don't see what it is that she experienced that turned her into someone that went from loving animals to slitting a dog's throat.
And that's the problem with making someone her age the protagonist. They had to age her up so the abuse they inflicted on her and the tasks they gave her didn't feel absolutely ridiculous, thus the time skip. And via this time skip they took the easy way out and just presented her, changed in significant yet unexplained ways, and expected us to just accept that.
Choices create inconsistent characterization. 1 min she's acting like season 1 Clem being all cute and the next min she's being a sassy little badass, then she's back to being season 1 Clem again within seconds. She's basically just the player's puppet and not her own character in season 2.
This is why I'm of the mindset that most dialogue choices should be a product/result of how we decide to play as Clem. If we decide to be more nice, then the choices that we get, for the most part, should fit that narrative. If our Clem's attitude turns other characters off, then that's a sacrifice made in order to give Clem a consistent set of values as a person. If I went thru the BS of forcing Jane and Luke to wait for me to slap Sarah out of that van, and I later tell Jane I made the right decision, why would that same Clem later have the option to NOT save Sarah the second time? It doesn't make any sense. The options should be "Go save Sarah yourself" or "Plead/Tell Jane to save Sarah"; if I do the latter, I can then cover the woman while she works...rather than just stand there gawking with the others.
If convinced Walter that Nick was a good man, and am nice to the others, why do I then have the option to essentially call them burdens when talking to Carver?
Now if I playing as a pragmatic/hesitant to trust others, or even a cold, Clem then it makes sense that such a dialogue option would cross her mind.
Big changes to her psyche should/could be as a result of a hyper stressful situation, but if I go thru enough of those events with the same mindset, then at some point Clem just thinks a certain way, but with multiple ways to go about things with the established mentality.
They can't really do anything to fix Clem's character since she's the playable character. Choices create inconsistent characterization. 1 mi… moren she's acting like season 1 Clem being all cute and the next min she's being a sassy little badass, then she's back to being season 1 Clem again within seconds. She's basically just the player's puppet and not her own character in season 2.
The reason why it worked for Lee in season 1 is because every player (every Lee) had the same overall goal which was Protect Clem. In season 2 Clem has no goal, no purpose apart from just survive, so different players want different things, different Clem's want different things, therefore the inconsistency.
That may be the reason why they decided to keep AJ with Clem during all of season 2s endings, to give Clem her purpose. That's one way to fix it I guess.
I felt the transition for Clem was just fine. I didn't even notice it was a time lapse between the first and second season.
It felt natural to be like she is, having dealt with her "I'm an innocent child" in season 1, before she was hardened and then you see her become more independent near the end of Season 1 and starts to become more so in season 2.
She had to either grow up, or be a scared, victim the entire game.
You can dislike someone for a lot of reasons. Your sentence just doesn't makes sense. "To dislike people for a fake one" its not a "for" it's a "because". It's not "fake" it's a personage with character and you can like or dislike any character. I could even dislike you for rambo, but he's "fake" though. He's a actor.
Yeah Imo, they should of kept Sarah alive, kill Jane off in the escape attempt and have a Kenny vs Carlos for the end. Then you have to make a choice to shoot Carlos in front of his daughter or not.
The baby aka plot device ruined the S2 for me. Sarah should been alive, just like Ben in s1.
I feel that she's underwritten. On the surface, I actually like the idea that she's been ground down into a resentful, repressed, miserable… more mess of a child.
But Season 2 should have been about that transformation, rather than using it as the starting point, because otherwise why not use a different child protagonist like Becca? The fact that she gets multiple endings is a sign that Telltale themselves didn't know where her character arc was meant to lead. Is she meant to become a nasty person because, according to the writers, that's the only way you can be? Does she become a 'tough' loner like the sociopathic Jane? Does she remain subservient to an emotionally abusive, unstable mess of a man?
And really, I'm quite pissed that the writers chose to use Sarah as a prop to show how 'badass' Clem (look at how all the grown-ups rely on her!) rather than actually letting Clem form a friendship with another child. That, along with Clem s… [view original content]
I don't think she's emotionless, after seeing No Going Back it just comes to show that she isn't. I love both S1 and S2 Clementine's. The pr… moreoblem I have with season 2 Clem, is how she responds to some of the characters you meet. Depending what choices you choose, she will sometimes spit out some pretty mean things. She can act hostile around newcomers. I mean these are just based on your choices and this might not count for everyone, but I sometimes feel like she needs to put up this cold façade in order to hide how broken she is. Another reason, is because everyone could be just used to seeing her as the innocent, scared little girl or because we are just suddenly thrown into playing her as an 11 year old. A 16 month gap was a little too big for my liking and we didn't get to see how Clementine evolved into this sassy 11 year old.
I feel that Becca would have been better suited as a protagonist than Clementine in Season 2.
Think about it, replace Omid with Shel in the toilet stall ambush with Michelle back in Episode 1. Two girls trying to outdo each other with their 'tough survivor' persona that stirs up a lot of tension in a fight between the two, then Shel sneaks in and tries to disarm Michelle, only to be shot in front of Becca during the struggle. Whatever happens to Michelle later is irrelevant.
Becca becomes broken over the death of her older sister, realises that she's alone, and runs in a panic. After calming down she comes across an empty camp and is ambushed by Winston and his bandits, and is able to escape in the same manner as Clementine did.
Fastforward, she meets the Cabin Group who treats her harshly over the dog-bite and her own attitude. From there on she eventually finds herself in the middle of Carver's community after being taken hostage, where she sees her own interpretation of how adults act tough in a zombie apocalypse being taken to heart and considers joining Carver's community to the dismay of the Cabin Group. Or she could reject Carver's ideals and become more like how Shel acted to honor her fallen sister, and join the Cabin Group to side against Carver.
Then the story could continue in a different direction, whether Kenny is involved or not.
I feel that she's underwritten. On the surface, I actually like the idea that she's been ground down into a resentful, repressed, miserable… more mess of a child.
But Season 2 should have been about that transformation, rather than using it as the starting point, because otherwise why not use a different child protagonist like Becca? The fact that she gets multiple endings is a sign that Telltale themselves didn't know where her character arc was meant to lead. Is she meant to become a nasty person because, according to the writers, that's the only way you can be? Does she become a 'tough' loner like the sociopathic Jane? Does she remain subservient to an emotionally abusive, unstable mess of a man?
And really, I'm quite pissed that the writers chose to use Sarah as a prop to show how 'badass' Clem (look at how all the grown-ups rely on her!) rather than actually letting Clem form a friendship with another child. That, along with Clem s… [view original content]
I feel that Becca would have been better suited as a protagonist than Clementine in Season 2.
I agree. She had emotion in her words.
Clementine felt about as alive as a turnip.
Now imagine if after shooting Shell, Michelle doesn't die instantly, and becomes part of the story where she has character development, regrets and things that she wants to accomplish. Maybe at the end of the season Michelle sacrifices herself to save Becca, to make up the mistakes she made in the Bathroom.
I feel that Becca would have been better suited as a protagonist than Clementine in Season 2.
Think about it, replace Omid with Shel in t… morehe toilet stall ambush with Michelle back in Episode 1. Two girls trying to outdo each other with their 'tough survivor' persona that stirs up a lot of tension in a fight between the two, then Shel sneaks in and tries to disarm Michelle, only to be shot in front of Becca during the struggle. Whatever happens to Michelle later is irrelevant.
Becca becomes broken over the death of her older sister, realises that she's alone, and runs in a panic. After calming down she comes across an empty camp and is ambushed by Winston and his bandits, and is able to escape in the same manner as Clementine did.
Fastforward, she meets the Cabin Group who treats her harshly over the dog-bite and her own attitude. From there on she eventually finds herself in the middle of Carver's community after being taken hostage, … [view original content]
The only time I thought Clementine did something impossible was when she chopped off Sarita's arm, or the entire episode 3 herd scene, and the cliche moment she kicked down that door. Unlikely she could take down those walkers in the bridge? Somewhat, but impossible? Definitley not. And Clementine's had badass moments in season one, like when she volunteered to crawl through the A.C shaft in starved for help? You don't think she'd evolve from that and become better at fending for herself in those two years?
Im not sure where this idea of lack of emotions is from but this was never a issue of sorts imo...
The issue I had was the overall way th… moreat S2 was writen considering we are supposed to be playing a 12 yr old, it was too early to play her full stop, the best they COULD have done at this age poi t was to put us/clem in lots situations like clem was in s1 over leaving ben behind... basicly can we talk the group around to do the right thing or what we want, basically it would be a verbal game, there aint a fat lot a 12 yr old is going to be able to do in situation such as a ZA...
Yes have her handling a gun, yes lets have some awsome clem coming to the rescue just intime shocking and saving the group, and maybe 1 mabe 2x max her using her smaller size/weight to help the group in some way...
BUT
What we ended up with was a 12 yr old rambo that put everyone to shame again and again bar kenny and he was certified insane by ep3..
Im s… [view original content]
You do realise that Clementine is gonna stay untill the end right? Season 1 was built on Clementine. Season 2 aswel. the only logical ending would be either in season 4 or 5.
From reading these comments I've changed my answer slightly. I wish the writers had kept Clementine that happy optimistic girl all you who dislike S2 Clem reason why you don't like her. Yeah I partially agree with that but I want to be there to see her transform from S1 Clem to S2 Clem. Instead of killing Omid right off the bat kill him after the 16 month time skip along with possibly dead Christa. We watch Clementine cope with all that loss and her slowly coming to terms that the world isn't fair. This would make the transition easier for some people. Not saying I would want it like this, it sounds awfully sloppy.
And for her fighting skills I don't doubt, it's been two years people, of course she's not going to be as vulnerable as in season one. It's not like she can take down a grown man with one punch anyways, she thinks fast and is quick on her feet which doesn't exactly mean strength. The only part I saw as unrealistic was when she chopped off Sarita's arm in two swings, and to a lesser note that time she kicked open the door which wasn't not believable but looked really cheesy.
There's a difference between knowing why she's hardened and actually liking it. Of course we don't expect her to be all sunshine and rainbows, but we don't have to be content with her attitude either. This is mainly why I didn't want to play as her in season 2; unpopular opinion, but I'd rather remember her as the naive girl you protected in season 1 instead of seeing her grow into a jaded survivor. It was honestly pretty boring for me.
I'm not trying to say I "dislike" s2 Clementine, I just didn't feel nearly as fond of her.
Rousey has it right. It's not even remotely reasonable to expect her to still be small and innocent after what she's gone through. There'd b… moree nothing "real" about a character like that. I would've enjoyed S2 far less had she somehow not grown as a character.
From reading these comments I've changed my answer slightly. I wish the writers had kept Clementine that happy optimistic girl all you who d… moreislike S2 Clem reason why you don't like her. Yeah I partially agree with that but I want to be there to see her transform from S1 Clem to S2 Clem. Instead of killing Omid right off the bat kill him after the 16 month time skip along with possibly dead Christa. We watch Clementine cope with all that loss and her slowly coming to terms that the world isn't fair. This would make the transition easier for some people. Not saying I would want it like this, it sounds awfully sloppy.
And for her fighting skills I don't doubt, it's been two years people, of course she's not going to be as vulnerable as in season one. It's not like she can take down a grown man with one punch anyways, she thinks fast and is quick on her feet which doesn't exactly mean strength. The only part I saw as unrealistic was when she c… [view original content]
Because I feel like she is emotionless, and there was no character development at all. Clem has soooo much potential as a character but so far Telltale has been doing an awful job at developing her.
Ok.... a ZA changes people, we understand that, people have to grow up and grow balls quick, but there are sime things it doesn't change
My issue with the bridge scene is not that clem would not be able to handle the walkers on the bridge, its that she was chosen out of a group of adults and grown men, there is only one reason clem took point on that bridge.. and that reason is simply because WE the player was playing clems character, would clem have done that if lee was still protagonist? Would she have done that had we been playing as anyone else but clem... NO...
Once across the bridge alvin asks clem to go into a unchecked cabin to search for food while everyone else sits on there asses.... again would clem have been put into that situation had we been playing any other character? No...
Why would you ask a 12 yr old girl to shut diwn a wind turbine when we have a group of adults who have at the very least experience in simple electronics, a ZA isnt going to give clem experience in such tasks, ask her to join the rest blowing away walkers. Yes! Shes done that a million times, but put someone on the turbine who has atleast wired a friggin plug and cord in there lifetime, not a 12 yr old simply so WE the player can interact with the game and flick switches..
How many times was clems size and weight used throughout S2.?.. I was literally headbutting my tv due to the amount of times this was used, just so we the player could interact with the game... it was getting real old after the umpteenth time of "but clem could fit through that hole" ..."clem is light enough to use the broken crane"...." clem walk on this broken ice your light..".. give me a break here.....
You dont think the hurd scene was realistic? Somthing this girl has grown up in and honed her skills in, if clem was going to excel in ANYTHING! During this apocalypse its navigating and killing walkers... was it poorly writen? Yes... but only because the group just abandons a 12 yr old girl in a hurd simply so you the player has to survive the situation without your hand being held... and to put us in the situation with sarita while kenny is god knows where so the writers could turn kenny into a raving nutcase and start there half arsed story line that we had to endure right till the last minutes of the last episode I might add........ again only because we are playing clem...... would clem have been in that situation had we been playing anyone else? Hiiiighly doubtful.....
But you think a hurd of walkers is beyond clem after living in this world since she can remember, but you find it totally fine, totally reasonable and realistic that she asked to hack a 2" metal support cable holding up a wooden deck that weighs in the region of 3 maybe 5 tons? When there are adults about....?
The whole story was thrown together from start to finish putting a 12 yr old girl in situations she would never find herself had we be playing another protagonist..... and that's FACT... not opinion....
The only time I thought Clementine did something impossible was when she chopped off Sarita's arm, or the entire episode 3 herd scene, and t… morehe cliche moment she kicked down that door. Unlikely she could take down those walkers in the bridge? Somewhat, but impossible? Definitley not. And Clementine's had badass moments in season one, like when she volunteered to crawl through the A.C shaft in starved for help? You don't think she'd evolve from that and become better at fending for herself in those two years?
If you like TTG, but prefer wildly unreal and more upbeat character, I'd recommend Sam & Max :-p
But seriously, I get not liking what she's become, but in line with the story I get it and I feel it made her character more real and much deeper. She still wants to be that happy-go-lucky little girl. But even in S1, she had already lost so much.
There's a difference between knowing why she's hardened and actually liking it. Of course we don't expect her to be all sunshine and rainbow… mores, but we don't have to be content with her attitude either. This is mainly why I didn't want to play as her in season 2; unpopular opinion, but I'd rather remember her as the naive girl you protected in season 1 instead of seeing her grow into a jaded survivor. It was honestly pretty boring for me.
I'm not trying to say I "dislike" s2 Clementine, I just didn't feel nearly as fond of her.
If you like TTG, but prefer wildly unreal and more upbeat character, I'd recommend Sam & Max :-p
But seriously, I get not liking what… more she's become, but in line with the story I get it and I feel it made her character more real and much deeper. She still wants to be that happy-go-lucky little girl. But even in S1, she had already lost so much.
I disagree imo Season 2 was weak as hell. I felt the Clementine protagonist was weak compared to Lee.
You do realize that Clementine is gonna stay until the end right? Season 1 was built on Clementine. Season 2 aswel. the only logical ending would be either in season 4 or 5.
Not necessary true, Resident evil started out with Chris and Jill, now theirs Leon, Claire, the other people... Games can progress and keep going on.
You do realise that Clementine is gonna stay untill the end right? Season 1 was built on Clementine. Season 2 aswel. the only logical ending would be either in season 4 or 5.
Because people loved S1 Clem while she was just an innocent little girl that needed our protection.
Now S2 Clem is a little older and more able to take care of herself, she has gone from innocent and sweet to sassy, she's just not that same little girl.
Personally, I prefer S2 Clem.. I want her to grow up into a sweet sassy badass.. That's just me tho
Although I partially agree, it felt like Clementine barely had any personality. And if she did, it was up to us. Which I thought was a big mistake, because she was purely a blank canvas. I know the apocalypse has changed her, but she'd at least have much more of her own personality still there from Season one.
When people say season 2 Clem is emotionless it's like saying Lee is emotionless. Some people can't distinguish the difference between being emotionless and being reserved
Why do people dislike S2 Clementine?
Jesus. A year ago, this place was full of annoying "Still not bitten" threads. I'd go so far as… more to say the people who enjoy Clem's 'badass' character in S2 are more vocal than the minority who don't enjoy her S2 character.
Personally, I don't like Clem's character in S2 because it detracts from what I liked about her innocent, hopeful character in S1. Doesn't feel like Clem to me.
People who say she needs to stay innocent and hopeful need to stop. Clementine HAS to drop the innocence to stay alive in this world. She still IS innocent (You know.. kissing stuff) and she always will be a child at heart. She can't be naive or she'll never make it in this ZA. I like who I sculpted my Clem to be, and that's all we did this season.
It might seem dumb that shes the smartest of them all, but games like these wan't to show / prove that kids can be adults too. If prompted / forced to, and of course; not every girl/ boy at Clementine's age can be like Clementine. Clementine is intelligent.
It's not Clementine. It's playing AS Clementine. Even in the world of fiction it's silly to think of a bunch of adults taking advice from … morea child. Like Mark Twain once said "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." Playing as a little girl makes no sense to me. If she was alone trying to survive then it's ok. But for her to be some sort decision maker of adults is just dumb.
I feel that she's underwritten. On the surface, I actually like the idea that she's been ground down into a resentful, repressed, miserable… more mess of a child.
But Season 2 should have been about that transformation, rather than using it as the starting point, because otherwise why not use a different child protagonist like Becca? The fact that she gets multiple endings is a sign that Telltale themselves didn't know where her character arc was meant to lead. Is she meant to become a nasty person because, according to the writers, that's the only way you can be? Does she become a 'tough' loner like the sociopathic Jane? Does she remain subservient to an emotionally abusive, unstable mess of a man?
And really, I'm quite pissed that the writers chose to use Sarah as a prop to show how 'badass' Clem (look at how all the grown-ups rely on her!) rather than actually letting Clem form a friendship with another child. That, along with Clem s… [view original content]
I feel that Becca would have been better suited as a protagonist than Clementine in Season 2.
I agree. She had emotion in her words.… more
Clementine felt about as alive as a turnip.
Now imagine if after shooting Shell, Michelle doesn't die instantly, and becomes part of the story where she has character development, regrets and things that she wants to accomplish. Maybe at the end of the season Michelle sacrifices herself to save Becca, to make up the mistakes she made in the Bathroom.
Why do people dislike S2 Clementine?
Because people loved S1 Clem while she was just an innocent little girl that needed our protection.
… more
Now S2 Clem is a little older and more able to take care of herself, she has gone from innocent and sweet to sassy, she's just not that same little girl.
Personally, I prefer S2 Clem.. I want her to grow up into a sweet sassy badass.. That's just me tho
People who say she needs to stay innocent and hopeful need to stop. Clementine HAS to drop the innocence to stay alive in this world. She st… moreill IS innocent (You know.. kissing stuff) and she always will be a child at heart. She can't be naive or she'll never make it in this ZA. I like who I sculpted my Clem to be, and that's all we did this season.
I disagree that she's going in the "wrong direction". This is not a world for children to focus on a positive way of life because it is a life filled with horrors and danger. She must grow up faster than usual in order just to survive. She must think in a way that will protect herself and those close to her, not about how she should be if this were a normal world.
As a kid, her world is already treating her badly and her future will be nothing but the same or end up worse if she relaxes and let's her guard down. Now perhaps in a place like Wellington, she could have some sort of life where she is able to relax a little in a degree of safety and comfort from the world outside, but I feel she need's to always be on her guard and be prepared for any worst case senerio.
As soon as she forget's the kind of world this is, will be when it all comes crashing in around her and if she is not ready for that will be when she get's killed or loses those closest to her.
Actually; She's already going in the wrong direction, and as a kid this could end up badly.
she should go more into the positive way of life, she already knows the negative.
No, you are not innocent when you take a life.. That is very correct, but this is not an innocent world. This is no longer a world that protect's the innocent. The innocent are taken advantage of. The innocent are the ones preyed upon. The innocent are the one unable to do what they must in order to survive.
A person comes at you with the intent to kill you and take your last bit's of food and supplies, will you retain your innocence and allow yourself to be killed or will you shoot them in defence of your life or the lives of those you hold close? What good is innocence to the dead?
Would you rather Rest in Peace knowing that you died remaining a good or 'innocent' person or would you rather survive and live to protect your's even if it means abandoning your innocence?
You may call me bad, or evil, call me a murderer or question my moral's and ethic's, but in the end, when all the names and labels have been thrown around, I will still be one standing to continue to fight for my life and the people I hold dear to me.
I disagree that she's going in the "wrong direction". This is not a world for children to focus on a positive way of life because it is a l… moreife filled with horrors and danger. She must grow up faster than usual in order just to survive. She must think in a way that will protect herself and those close to her, not about how she should be if this were a normal world.
As a kid, her world is already treating her badly and her future will be nothing but the same or end up worse if she relaxes and let's her guard down. Now perhaps in a place like Wellington, she could have some sort of life where she is able to relax a little in a degree of safety and comfort from the world outside, but I feel she need's to always be on her guard and be prepared for any worst case senerio.
As soon as she forget's the kind of world this is, will be when it all comes crashing in around her and if she is not ready for that will be when she get's killed or loses those closest to her.
Comments
Rousey has it right. It's not even remotely reasonable to expect her to still be small and innocent after what she's gone through. There'd be nothing "real" about a character like that. I would've enjoyed S2 far less had she somehow not grown as a character.
I don't think she's emotionless, after seeing No Going Back it just comes to show that she isn't. I love both S1 and S2 Clementine's. The problem I have with season 2 Clem, is how she responds to some of the characters you meet. Depending what choices you choose, she will sometimes spit out some pretty mean things. She can act hostile around newcomers. I mean these are just based on your choices and this might not count for everyone, but I sometimes feel like she needs to put up this cold façade in order to hide how broken she is. Another reason, is because everyone could be just used to seeing her as the innocent, scared little girl or because we are just suddenly thrown into playing her as an 11 year old. A 16 month gap was a little too big for my liking and we didn't get to see how Clementine evolved into this sassy 11 year old.
I still don't see at all how Jane is a "sociopath" (if you look up what a sociopath is, and how they act, Jane does not fit the bill, at all; she's still cold and manipulative, but one doesn't need to be a sociopath to have those traits), but I agree with everything else 100%.
It's not that I dislike her. I love Clementine. But she was poorly written in Season 2.
For a protagonist, she's incredibly stagnant. The significant character change she goes through happens during a time we're not allowed to even see. In the events of Season 2, Clementine is just whisked up in other people's problems and performs tasks no person in their right mind would ever assign an eleven-year-old, regardless of how "capable" she seems in the week they've know her.
We're told Clementine is in danger of becoming like Carver, or we see her given choices that treat people like liabilities and leave them behind, but there's no build up to this. We don't see what it is that she experienced that turned her into someone that went from loving animals to slitting a dog's throat.
And that's the problem with making someone her age the protagonist. They had to age her up so the abuse they inflicted on her and the tasks they gave her didn't feel absolutely ridiculous, thus the time skip. And via this time skip they took the easy way out and just presented her, changed in significant yet unexplained ways, and expected us to just accept that.
This is why I'm of the mindset that most dialogue choices should be a product/result of how we decide to play as Clem. If we decide to be more nice, then the choices that we get, for the most part, should fit that narrative. If our Clem's attitude turns other characters off, then that's a sacrifice made in order to give Clem a consistent set of values as a person. If I went thru the BS of forcing Jane and Luke to wait for me to slap Sarah out of that van, and I later tell Jane I made the right decision, why would that same Clem later have the option to NOT save Sarah the second time? It doesn't make any sense. The options should be "Go save Sarah yourself" or "Plead/Tell Jane to save Sarah"; if I do the latter, I can then cover the woman while she works...rather than just stand there gawking with the others.
If convinced Walter that Nick was a good man, and am nice to the others, why do I then have the option to essentially call them burdens when talking to Carver?
Now if I playing as a pragmatic/hesitant to trust others, or even a cold, Clem then it makes sense that such a dialogue option would cross her mind.
Big changes to her psyche should/could be as a result of a hyper stressful situation, but if I go thru enough of those events with the same mindset, then at some point Clem just thinks a certain way, but with multiple ways to go about things with the established mentality.
I felt the transition for Clem was just fine. I didn't even notice it was a time lapse between the first and second season.
It felt natural to be like she is, having dealt with her "I'm an innocent child" in season 1, before she was hardened and then you see her become more independent near the end of Season 1 and starts to become more so in season 2.
She had to either grow up, or be a scared, victim the entire game.
You can dislike someone for a lot of reasons. Your sentence just doesn't makes sense. "To dislike people for a fake one" its not a "for" it's a "because". It's not "fake" it's a personage with character and you can like or dislike any character. I could even dislike you for rambo, but he's "fake" though. He's a actor.
Example:
I dislike you because you don't like Clementine.
Lee was a better protagonist than Clementine. They killed him off.
Yeah Imo, they should of kept Sarah alive, kill Jane off in the escape attempt and have a Kenny vs Carlos for the end. Then you have to make a choice to shoot Carlos in front of his daughter or not.
The baby aka plot device ruined the S2 for me. Sarah should been alive, just like Ben in s1.
I would have liked some sort of clip of what happened in the 16 months.
I feel that Becca would have been better suited as a protagonist than Clementine in Season 2.
Think about it, replace Omid with Shel in the toilet stall ambush with Michelle back in Episode 1. Two girls trying to outdo each other with their 'tough survivor' persona that stirs up a lot of tension in a fight between the two, then Shel sneaks in and tries to disarm Michelle, only to be shot in front of Becca during the struggle. Whatever happens to Michelle later is irrelevant.
Becca becomes broken over the death of her older sister, realises that she's alone, and runs in a panic. After calming down she comes across an empty camp and is ambushed by Winston and his bandits, and is able to escape in the same manner as Clementine did.
Fastforward, she meets the Cabin Group who treats her harshly over the dog-bite and her own attitude. From there on she eventually finds herself in the middle of Carver's community after being taken hostage, where she sees her own interpretation of how adults act tough in a zombie apocalypse being taken to heart and considers joining Carver's community to the dismay of the Cabin Group. Or she could reject Carver's ideals and become more like how Shel acted to honor her fallen sister, and join the Cabin Group to side against Carver.
Then the story could continue in a different direction, whether Kenny is involved or not.
I agree. She had emotion in her words.
Clementine felt about as alive as a turnip.
Now imagine if after shooting Shell, Michelle doesn't die instantly, and becomes part of the story where she has character development, regrets and things that she wants to accomplish. Maybe at the end of the season Michelle sacrifices herself to save Becca, to make up the mistakes she made in the Bathroom.
The only time I thought Clementine did something impossible was when she chopped off Sarita's arm, or the entire episode 3 herd scene, and the cliche moment she kicked down that door. Unlikely she could take down those walkers in the bridge? Somewhat, but impossible? Definitley not. And Clementine's had badass moments in season one, like when she volunteered to crawl through the A.C shaft in starved for help? You don't think she'd evolve from that and become better at fending for herself in those two years?
You do realise that Clementine is gonna stay untill the end right? Season 1 was built on Clementine. Season 2 aswel. the only logical ending would be either in season 4 or 5.
From reading these comments I've changed my answer slightly. I wish the writers had kept Clementine that happy optimistic girl all you who dislike S2 Clem reason why you don't like her. Yeah I partially agree with that but I want to be there to see her transform from S1 Clem to S2 Clem. Instead of killing Omid right off the bat kill him after the 16 month time skip along with possibly dead Christa. We watch Clementine cope with all that loss and her slowly coming to terms that the world isn't fair. This would make the transition easier for some people. Not saying I would want it like this, it sounds awfully sloppy.
And for her fighting skills I don't doubt, it's been two years people, of course she's not going to be as vulnerable as in season one. It's not like she can take down a grown man with one punch anyways, she thinks fast and is quick on her feet which doesn't exactly mean strength. The only part I saw as unrealistic was when she chopped off Sarita's arm in two swings, and to a lesser note that time she kicked open the door which wasn't not believable but looked really cheesy.
There's a difference between knowing why she's hardened and actually liking it. Of course we don't expect her to be all sunshine and rainbows, but we don't have to be content with her attitude either. This is mainly why I didn't want to play as her in season 2; unpopular opinion, but I'd rather remember her as the naive girl you protected in season 1 instead of seeing her grow into a jaded survivor. It was honestly pretty boring for me.
I'm not trying to say I "dislike" s2 Clementine, I just didn't feel nearly as fond of her.
Don't forget that also in S2 Clementine sent the dog flying.
and also folks who say Season 2 Clem is emotionless;there is a thread on the forum called The Many Faces of Clementine
It was a rather small dog, w/ obvious adrenaline rushing thru her, and she didn't kick it that far really.
Much more believable than the door.
Yeah plus it looks like Sam bounced off the log by impact.
Because I feel like she is emotionless, and there was no character development at all. Clem has soooo much potential as a character but so far Telltale has been doing an awful job at developing her.
What?
Ok.... a ZA changes people, we understand that, people have to grow up and grow balls quick, but there are sime things it doesn't change
My issue with the bridge scene is not that clem would not be able to handle the walkers on the bridge, its that she was chosen out of a group of adults and grown men, there is only one reason clem took point on that bridge.. and that reason is simply because WE the player was playing clems character, would clem have done that if lee was still protagonist? Would she have done that had we been playing as anyone else but clem... NO...
Once across the bridge alvin asks clem to go into a unchecked cabin to search for food while everyone else sits on there asses.... again would clem have been put into that situation had we been playing any other character? No...
Why would you ask a 12 yr old girl to shut diwn a wind turbine when we have a group of adults who have at the very least experience in simple electronics, a ZA isnt going to give clem experience in such tasks, ask her to join the rest blowing away walkers. Yes! Shes done that a million times, but put someone on the turbine who has atleast wired a friggin plug and cord in there lifetime, not a 12 yr old simply so WE the player can interact with the game and flick switches..
How many times was clems size and weight used throughout S2.?.. I was literally headbutting my tv due to the amount of times this was used, just so we the player could interact with the game... it was getting real old after the umpteenth time of "but clem could fit through that hole" ..."clem is light enough to use the broken crane"...." clem walk on this broken ice your light..".. give me a break here.....
You dont think the hurd scene was realistic? Somthing this girl has grown up in and honed her skills in, if clem was going to excel in ANYTHING! During this apocalypse its navigating and killing walkers... was it poorly writen? Yes... but only because the group just abandons a 12 yr old girl in a hurd simply so you the player has to survive the situation without your hand being held... and to put us in the situation with sarita while kenny is god knows where so the writers could turn kenny into a raving nutcase and start there half arsed story line that we had to endure right till the last minutes of the last episode I might add........ again only because we are playing clem...... would clem have been in that situation had we been playing anyone else? Hiiiighly doubtful.....
But you think a hurd of walkers is beyond clem after living in this world since she can remember, but you find it totally fine, totally reasonable and realistic that she asked to hack a 2" metal support cable holding up a wooden deck that weighs in the region of 3 maybe 5 tons? When there are adults about....?
The whole story was thrown together from start to finish putting a 12 yr old girl in situations she would never find herself had we be playing another protagonist..... and that's FACT... not opinion....
They got seriously big hate on killing of Lee aswell though, they took a major risk killing Lee and it sort of paid out for them in the long run.
If you like TTG, but prefer wildly unreal and more upbeat character, I'd recommend Sam & Max :-p
But seriously, I get not liking what she's become, but in line with the story I get it and I feel it made her character more real and much deeper. She still wants to be that happy-go-lucky little girl. But even in S1, she had already lost so much.
I know that, really. But like I said, I just found it a lot harder to care about her, especially since the player is controlling her.
I disagree imo Season 2 was weak as hell. I felt the Clementine protagonist was weak compared to Lee.
Not necessary true, Resident evil started out with Chris and Jill, now theirs Leon, Claire, the other people... Games can progress and keep going on.
And the vast majority will be happy for it. A lot of the regulars here just baffle me. So much hate
Why do people dislike S2 Clementine?
Because people loved S1 Clem while she was just an innocent little girl that needed our protection.
Now S2 Clem is a little older and more able to take care of herself, she has gone from innocent and sweet to sassy, she's just not that same little girl.
Personally, I prefer S2 Clem.. I want her to grow up into a sweet sassy badass.. That's just me tho
I'm pretty sure that's the problem.
Although I partially agree, it felt like Clementine barely had any personality. And if she did, it was up to us. Which I thought was a big mistake, because she was purely a blank canvas. I know the apocalypse has changed her, but she'd at least have much more of her own personality still there from Season one.
But Lee had some personality in him and it didn't fully depend on us. Clementine didn't have that, and if she did, it was minor.
STILL NOT BITTEN 420 BITE IT GOML
People who say she needs to stay innocent and hopeful need to stop. Clementine HAS to drop the innocence to stay alive in this world. She still IS innocent (You know.. kissing stuff) and she always will be a child at heart. She can't be naive or she'll never make it in this ZA. I like who I sculpted my Clem to be, and that's all we did this season.
It might seem dumb that shes the smartest of them all, but games like these wan't to show / prove that kids can be adults too. If prompted / forced to, and of course; not every girl/ boy at Clementine's age can be like Clementine. Clementine is intelligent.
Actually they gave you this opportunity.
I wouldn't wan't to play as Becca.
Actually; She's already going in the wrong direction, and as a kid this could end up badly.
she should go more into the positive way of life, she already knows the negative.
you're not innocent when you take someone's life. now are you.
I disagree that she's going in the "wrong direction". This is not a world for children to focus on a positive way of life because it is a life filled with horrors and danger. She must grow up faster than usual in order just to survive. She must think in a way that will protect herself and those close to her, not about how she should be if this were a normal world.
As a kid, her world is already treating her badly and her future will be nothing but the same or end up worse if she relaxes and let's her guard down. Now perhaps in a place like Wellington, she could have some sort of life where she is able to relax a little in a degree of safety and comfort from the world outside, but I feel she need's to always be on her guard and be prepared for any worst case senerio.
As soon as she forget's the kind of world this is, will be when it all comes crashing in around her and if she is not ready for that will be when she get's killed or loses those closest to her.
No, you are not innocent when you take a life.. That is very correct, but this is not an innocent world. This is no longer a world that protect's the innocent. The innocent are taken advantage of. The innocent are the ones preyed upon. The innocent are the one unable to do what they must in order to survive.
A person comes at you with the intent to kill you and take your last bit's of food and supplies, will you retain your innocence and allow yourself to be killed or will you shoot them in defence of your life or the lives of those you hold close? What good is innocence to the dead?
Would you rather Rest in Peace knowing that you died remaining a good or 'innocent' person or would you rather survive and live to protect your's even if it means abandoning your innocence?
You may call me bad, or evil, call me a murderer or question my moral's and ethic's, but in the end, when all the names and labels have been thrown around, I will still be one standing to continue to fight for my life and the people I hold dear to me.
Its a certainty that something will go wrong with Wellington sooner or later, I agree.