Jane was more like Carver than Kenny was
I know this Kenny vs. Jane thing is a hot topic around here, and I'm not trying to start a flame war. But I just finished this season and I haven't been able to find a mature discussion about this that adequately expresses how I feel about the matter, so I feel the need to share my thoughts.
Carver was all about getting rid of anyone in his group that he perceived as posing a threat to the well-being of the rest. This included the weak, the rule breakers, and people that posed a threat to his authority.
Similarly, Jane twice tried to leave Sarah behind to die, and wanted to leave Rebecca behind as well because she was pregnant. The only one she was willing to go out of her way to help was Clementine, and that was because she liked Clem, thought she was strong like her, and was someone that could grow up to be like her and help her out.
That is actually stunningly close to how Carver viewed Clementine as well. He viewed her as someone that was strong like him, and he clearly knew that she was involved in the Luke plot and had to have seen her pull the walkie talkie out of her pocket, but after Kenny snatched it out of her hand he gladly assigned all of the blame for that incident onto Kenny, giving Clem special treatment.
Kenny, on the other hand, never once in either season showed a propensity towards getting rid of the weaker members of his group. Rather, it was the weakest -- the children -- that he was MOST protective of.
Yes, Kenny was a hot-head that made a LOT of bad, rash decisions. But that's not Carver. Carver is a cold, calculating monster.
Whenever Kenny lost his cool towards someone (Ben, Arvo, Jane) it was always AFTER they had caused a great threat to his group and the people he cared about the most. He never tried to get rid of any other group members, no matter how much he disagreed with him.
And IMO Jane purposely set up that last fight with Kenny so she could either kill him in "self defense" or get Clementine to kill him for her. She wanted Clementine to herself, but knew she wouldn't leave Kenny, and she thought Kenny was a danger to them. And once again, eliminating someone because you feel they pose a threat to the rest of the group is very much a Carver-like rationale. Particularly in such a premeditated fashion.
One last thing to think about, for those that feel that Jane was more in the right in that last fight than Kenny: Imagine the roles were reversed and Kenny had pretended that he had been responsible for the death of someone Jane cared about in order to get Jane to attack her, and then killed her in "self-defense". I just can't imagine anyone being okay with Kenny doing that. I would've shot Kenny myself if he pulled something like that.
But that type of thing really wasn't in Kenny's character. It was in Jane's.
Comments
You, my friend, can read people properly. Have a thumbs up.
This is a great analysis, I agree completely.
I miss posts like this.
Especially because its 100% true.
Where is Lemoncakes when you need him?
Lemoncakes and need should not ever go in the same sentence.
Lemoncakes is the best thing to have happened to these forums.
At least Carver was upfront about who he wanted to eliminate when he saw one person as a threat to the group and got his own hands dirty.
But Jane has to do manipulate a 11 year old kid to shoot and murder her old friend and companion just because she saw him as a liability.
Kenny might be insane by some peoples stantards, but at least he is predictable. There is no telling what manipulative stunt Jane will pull next to convince others to kill or letting a person die for the benefit of the group (like she was so eager to do with Sarah, AJ and Kenny)
Long story short, yes she has more similarities with Carver than Kenny ever had, which makes her a hypocrite as well.
People like Jane might teach you how to survive but that is the only thing they will be capable of doing, when shit hits the fan you can't have a person watching your back who's known for leaving people without a second doubt.
Having a guy like Kenny have your back though can make all the difference in the world, someone who's known to go through hell to protect the people he care about (walkie talkie beat down and rushing into help Sarita despite a horde surrounding her comes to mind)
My sides, pls stop.
No.
Eh, one thing I don't believe is that Jane would ever be a threat to Clementine. Just like I don't think Kenny would ever be one.
But if Clem was completely on-board with whatever Carver was selling (which my Clem never would be), he'd probably never be a threat to her either. Doesn't make him a good person.
Thanks for the good laugh.
Conveniently, you forget how: 1) She still stays, and doesn't force Clem to leave Sarah, if she decides to talk her out of the trailer. She also could've died seeing as she was the one holding back the walkers, single-handedly, for most of the time there. 2) Sarah's 2nd death could've been avoided, if Jane was given cover while she was supposed to be helping Sarah; everyone just stood and watched. 3) She still turned back, and saved Rebecca, despite how she felt about her.
So what happened to Kenny, that didn't happen to everyone else, before his VERY stupid plan to rush the 3 machine gun wielding guys the moment they opened the delivery truck? What did Arvo do to get beat bloody at the unfinished house? Ran away from the thin ice, and walkers, like anyone with sense would? Didn't Kenny do the same? Also, he consistently killed the group.
If the roles were reversed, then does that mean that Jane was the emotional wreck that constantly beat people, killed the group moral, and never thought things thru when it came to plans that could get everyone killed? If so, then Kenny wouldn't be in the right, per se, but he'd be more right than Jane if she was the constant detriment to the group.
Yes, what Jane did was fucked up, but don't go and start painting Kenny as a saint in comparison. He was a detriment to the group. If he didn't get knocked out by the door, his plan in the beginning of ep 3 could've/would've got people killed if they fired in self-defense/surprise. He wanted to bring that giant walker horde to Howe's without having a plan to get survive it; if Clem, or Jane, aren't there, and they go with his plan, everyone dies. Why couldn't he just chill, and not be so overbearing? His behavior fractured the group, and Jane, being the survivalist, saw that as a beginning of the end of that group.
Jane's plan was to get him to reveal how far he'd go if AJ, a newborn in a ZA, died, which is practically guaranteed in this world. She wanted Clem to side with her, but for that to happen, she could NOT initiate the fight. He did, twice, and he did so 1) before she could even "explain" herself, and 2) after she said it was an accident (which is believable given the walker infested blizzard she was just in), and after she sheathed her knife and said to stay away from her. It's manipulation, but she just used what was already there to prove her point that Kenny was not reliable. That baby WILL NOT LAST. What happens when that baby dies? Does Kenny just get over it, like he expected Lilly to get over the death of her dad at his hands? Or does either his psyche just snap, and he becomes an incompetent emotional wreck, or does he go into a massive, violent rage? Likely the latter.
How does that help Clem, at all, if she's with him when that happens? Hell, Clem has shown that she's willing to put walker guts on a newborn's face! What AJ gets sick and dies/turns? How will Kenny react to that? What if it's his fault AJ dies? You think he'll ever be functional after that?
Yeah, Jane is cold, pessimistic, and manipulative, but she's (for the most part) emotionally stable when she has to be, resourceful, and smart. Kenny, since S1, is an asshole that's loyal to you when you've done the most for him, but not if you haven't. He does/says bad/offensive shit, and expects you to just get over it. And guess what? He refuses to change his ways; he willfully ignorant. He don't give a fuck what you have to say, if doesn't further his goal at the time. Yes, he has his good moments, but that only after you constantly appeal to him. He won't go out of his way to do the right thing, unless you go out of your way to do the most for him.
With Jane, you just straight can't trust her with anyone, but Clem's well being, and even then she's willing to use Clem for her needs. However, she's clearly making moves towards the right direction, albeit slowly, by helping to save those she deems as burdens, caring about anyone at all, and coming to grips with the regret of leaving her sister to die, and not wanting to repeat it with Clem.
Neither are the "right" choice, but went with Jane; the "lesser evil". Why? Because a 11 year old and a newborn should NOT have to be the emotional crutchs holding up a grown ass man in a ZA.
Although we do know that Kenny would be 1000x more likely to risk his life to save Clem than Jane ever would.
Love this post.
How can the insane be considered predictable? And who's to be his keeper? The 11 year old?
It's RIDICULOUS how people just hype Jane's flaws, of which I acknowledge, but are SO quick to just brush aside the stupid shit Kenny does.
This thread is about each characters similarity with Carver, its amusing to me that you label us as not acknowloding something but then begin to post a novel of a post which doesnt even acknowledge the very message that the OP was trying to get across.
I didn't forgot how, it just doesn't matter. I'm not saying her decisions to leave Sarah behind made her some godawful human being, just that she was consistently a believer in the philosophy that the weak should be left to die if they posed a threat to her. That's a very Carver-like philosophy.
Nothing. It was an incredibly stupid plan that I tried to talk him out of. But it wasn't immoral. We're arguing about morals here. I already admitted Kenny was a hot-head that made a lot of dumb decisions.
He twice put the entire group in a shitload of danger, first by robbing them at gunpoint which lead to a big shootout, and then by leading them across ice that he said was safe when it wasn't. Then he also tried to run away from the group.
I'm not saying the beating was justified, but it fits exactly with what I said above. He only loses his cool towards those that have put the group in a lot of danger. And also only after they've been responsible for someone's death in Kenny's eyes. (Luke's in this case, while putting everyone else in danger too. Twice.)
No. In my opinion neither of them deserved to die, until Jane decided upon this plan to kill Kenny. Then she kind of did. More so than Kenny at least.
And it's your opinion that Kenny was a detriment to the group (which you state over and over in this post), but I really didn't see it that way for the reasons I've stated.
And btw, killing someone because they're a "detriment to the group" is exactly why Carver killed Reggie.
We've seen Kenny deal with horrible grief time and time again. He never goes on a violent rage. He internalizes it and just shuts down for a while, but then recovers and is an effective member of the group again.
As long as Clementine was still around he'd still have a reason to go on. And if both Clem and AJ died, I could totally see Kenny killing himself. I can't ever see him attacking someone that he didn't feel deserved it.
I didn't insinuate that she'd be a danger to Clem but rather to any group member that she considers to be a liability. Clem is obviously made out to be the "ultimate survivor" in season 2 witch explains why Jane felt such an attachment to her.
The point of the OP's message is "Jane is more like that sociopathic monster Carver. Kenny's not."
Even tho, there are facts that prove that, while she is cold and distrustful, she does risk her life for others. Unlike Carver.
Thinking and doing are two different things, yet as you can see the OP disregards Jane's positive actions entirely in her response to my "novel". Only the mindset matters, but not the actions.
"Kenny only did stupid after a stressful event, so his stupid actions that caused/could've caused more negative outcomes are not so important. Jane tho, she was thinking that Rebecca was a burden, so she's like Carver. I don't care that she saved Rebecca's life." That's basically how the OP responded.
Yeah. I agree more with the stuff you edited in than the original post.
I really didn't make the decision based off of who I'd be more likely to survive with. But you make a good point that even that would probably be more likely to be with Kenny.
I'm sorry, who is Lemoncakes?
I dont think Kenny would kill himself because he says it himself when he sees the couple that killed themselves in 105 that you dont just give up when it gets hard
Jane tried to convince Clem that Kenny was becoming Carver, soon before she acted out this plan. That's where the comparison comes from.
She even then follows that up with a story about trying to save someone lead to many deaths. She wants Clem to take away from that that the weak should not be saved if it puts others at risk.
I'm not disregarding any of Jane's positive contributions. I was happy when she came back to the group. But man ... the way she set Kenny up to be killed at the end was so wrong. Much worse than anything Kenny ever did, IMO.
And again, we're arguing about morals ... you're arguing about who is more useful to the group. Those are two entirely different topics. Carver was very good at keeping most of his group alive and together too, he just wasn't so good with the moral stuff ...
Well...To be fair...It was early in the outbreak.
Things change and so does Kenny's thoughts.
True. But like I said if he still had Clem if Aj died I dont think he would. Because he said you stay for the ones you care about
I disagree but you bring up great points so you get a thumbs up.
He also says (if you shoot him) that he wished to die and asked for it many times, so opinions can change.. Although I'm unsure if he thought about that after or before seeing the dead couple, but I think its safe to assume that it was after, which hurts me because I find it very depressing to see a person losing all hope.
I think you misread what I said then, because I agree with you.
I was saying only if both Clem and AJ died could I see Kenny doing something drastic. And then it'd probably be suicide, not a violent action towards someone that didn't deserve it.
Yes, Kenny needs anchors.
He becomes depressed if he loses them and almost comes to a point of just being a shell. I remember Sarita talking about how she found Kenny in a diner and his beard was longer than it was in S2. Kenny just doesn't care when he has nothing...
When I was deciding to either go into Wellington or stay with Kenny this topic came into mind. Kenny through both seasons had a goal...To survive and take care of his family in S1 and later in S1 protect Clem for Lee. In S2 it was to protect Clem and the group and later on to protect Clem and AJ. I feel like if Clem and AJ went into Wellington Kenny would feel at rest and finally accept he has finished his purpose. In both Seasons he failed at his tasks....His family died and he never found out what happened to Clem...In season two most of the group died. If Clem and AJ left him then he would probably go into the forest and shoot himself...As sad as it is...That's why I went with Kenny...After everything I couldn't have the idea on my mind that everyone in S2 would be dead if Kenny killed himself.
I agree...Here's a like.
Ahhh! You're making me doubt my decision on the toughest decision in either season for me. :-p (Whether or not to leave Kenny to go into Wellington)
I was planning on staying with Kenny, but his begging convinced me. He really really really wanted us to go. He needed us to be safe.
I hope that maybe this will give him some peace of mind, and he'll stay determined to find a way into Wellington someday, so he can continue to look out for Clem and AJ.
But yeah ... his goodbye speech really did sound like a goodbye for good. He at the very least suspects that that is a very likely outcome, no matter how many times he comes back.
Bless you, MichaelAngel0. ;.; Take my like. Honestly I'm just really frustrated when I still see threads like these attacking Jane with such a limited view.
And I see you're new to the forum, so here's a little (actually long) thread I did defending Jane a loooong time ago, if you have the patience to read through it all XD : http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/84634/a-defense-analysis-of-jane?new=1
i agree take a thumbs up
I wasn't aware that that was allowed on the internet. Kudos.
[removed]
My specialty. :P
He did need us to be safe since it was his only and last goal.
That's a risk I wasn't willing to take, Kenny either tries to stay alive...If he does then he has the possibility to either get eaten by walkers because no one can look out for him, Finds a new group and forgets about Clem and takes on new goals and anchors, or dies to the harsh cold winds and has no one to keep him going so he gives up. He could also shoot himself...
Kenny was an asshole...I didn't like him for most of the time but...I moments I could see he was a good man. He only tried to be the hero...Save everyone...He couldn't. He wanted to finally accomplish something in his life...My final impression of him is that he is a reckless man...But a good man too.