Kenny and Luke should have fought
At the end of Season 2, a fight breaks out between Jane and Kenny, and we are given the choice whether to kill Kenny or let Jane die (just in case you were wondering, I let Jane die and went off with Kenny). The tension building up to the climax at the stop in the snow is very tense, but to me the conflict between the two characters doesn't actually make any sense, and it seems to me that Luke and Kenny have a lot more differences then Jane and Kenny.
Luke is the compassionate one who doesn't want the group to loose its humanity, and so comes into conflict regularly with Kenny who can be very rash and is hardened by the past. Jane, meanwhile, is just in the middle- she can be brutal like Kenny BUT also compassionate towards Clementine. Until the issue of were to go to next- Wellington or Howe's- came up, they hadn't been in conflict with each other at all, apart from the fact that Kenny didn't like Jane getting Clementine to drink. They were pretty neutral towards each other till they argued over were to head next, and if I'm honest it's ridiculous how that argument escalated to the point that Jane hid the baby to get a fight with Kenny.
Also, the suggestion that Clem would kill Kenny is stupid too: if she's known Kenny for so long and Jane for just a few days, why would she even consider killing him, especially when you consider that her and Kenny haven't been reunited for too long either. It's hard to believe that Clem can form a friendship with Jane so strong so quickly that she'd kill someone she's known for ages for her.
Now, back to the Luke-Kenny thing; both are on the opposite ends of the spectrum and both have a lot o contact and influence with Clem. Killing off Luke was a stupid thing to do by Telltale and it really felt wasteful.
My solution to this problem is as follows: Jane should have given her opinions on both characters, bonded with Clem and bit and then died: she was a middle ground character, and her only purpose should have been to offer the player a different perspective.
Kenny and Luke should have driven off after Clem got shot- there would be no need for that hiding the baby thing since Luke would be mad that Kenny just killed Arvo, Mike and (especially) Bonnie. The argument between those two would escalate quickly and would feel more real because they already have COMPLETELY different views, which differs to Jane and Kenny who only really disagreed on were to go and things would never have escalated so much had Jane not hidden the baby.
If there was a fight between Luke and Kenny it would also be a tougher choice- one character we've known since Season 1, the other saved us at the beginning of Season 2: as for Jane, she only appeared in episodes 3, 4 and 5, so its hard to have bonded so strongly with someone so quickly. It wouldn't happen in real life, and it feels pretty unrealistic to me.
From my personal point of view, it would also be a lot harder a decision and a lot more emotional: both characters have been with you for some time and both are good characters at heart. I'd probably choose Kenny but it would break me to have to kill Luke. At the same time though, me shooting Luke would be a better death. It would allow Clem a chance to say goodbye, and it would be more justice to Luke and the bond he has with Clem to let him live at least to the end of Episode 5. His death was so sudden and random that it didn't really do the game any justice- it just felt like Telltale had ran out of ideas for him and had to kill him off.
Comments
Nah
Yeah but the fight should have been more epic and brutal. If you don't save Luke he gets decapitated with his own machete.
Why not? There are more differences between Luke and Kenny and the whole "hiding the baby" plan of Jane's was pretty dumb
I don't think that'd be great. Firstly, I'd rather have Luke's death be more emotional, more like Lee's or Kenny's if you decide to kill him. Plus, making the death brutal wouldn't be good for the player because then the player would just think they've made the wrong choice, whichever one they choose.
Jane's death by itself was brutal. And there isn't much time to give an emotional speech when someone is pressing a knife into you, assuming we are talking about tje same scenario with Jane and Kenny
Because Kenny Vs Luke was Predicted back at Episode 2, and TellTale doesn't want to be predictable
No, I'd have the fight play out differently. I think the reason they didn't get Jane an emotional death is because you haven't actually known her that long and plus it would be weird if she gave a big emotional statement and then you find out she's been lying to you.
I'd rather have predictability that makes sense than a fight that doesn't: and on your point of predictability, the amount of time Jane and Clem talking about Kenny made it pretty obvious that they would come into conflict, though the reasoning behind the conflict was pretty weak. And, even if Luke V Kenny would be predictable, at least it would have more of an emotional impact. There's no point sacrificing a good game for the sake of trying to surprise players.
Agreed. Kenny vs Jane was a shitty last second move Telltale pulled out of desperation. It came out of no where
Exactly. Yes, maybe Kenny V Luke would be predictable but it would be realistic, and not a last second thing that develops WAY too quickly as Clemenem points out
I felt that Luke and Kenny had developed a mutual respect to each other by the end, or am I the only one seeing it? It was very subtle but it was there. Sure Kenny thought Luke was a 'flake' at first but you could clearly see how furious Kenny was at Arvo for indirectly getting Luke killed.
For that reason I don't think Luke vs Kenny would be a good idea. The second reason being that even I as a Kenny fanboy would have second doubts about saving him instead of Luke. I mean seriously who doesnt like Luke? He is one of the most likable characters in all TWD related and setting Kenny against him would give Luke an unfair advantage.
I would imagine the stats would be like:
25% saved Kenny
75% saved Luke
Kenny would have been mad at Arvo even if he got Hitler killed. And they could have given Luke some flaws. Being young and dumb vs being old and crazy.
But he also mentions Lukes death as a reason to not take Arvo for the road trip. To me it was clear that he cared a good deal about Luke in ep5 whereas he always mentioned how he didn't trust Jane, even after her helping Clem out of the water.
Luke felt like one of the rare instances where Kenny changed his opinion from bad to good regarding a survivor or at least that's how I see it.
Again. Kenny was just looking for ammo against Arvo. He was taking some anger out on him. Not to say it wasn't deserved.
Yeah, it would've been better because of how it was built up. In the beginning episodes, there's tons of character development between Luke and Clem. Like the dinner scene, the bridge scene, and when we choose to sit by Luke or Kenny. By EP4, Luke is even criticizing Kenny's behavior and arguing with him.
Then in EP5, Jane takes on what seemed to be Luke's path by criticizing and arguing with Kenny. Nick Breckon must've changed the original idea of Luke vs Kenny for some reason.
Luke was planed dying from the beggining
I wanted a Luke ending but without a Kenny vs Luke. No need to have Kenny and Luke at each other´s throats. I can´t even see Luke making some plan to hide AJ or anything that could trigger Kenny´s anger on purpose. And I don´t think a simple disagreement would escalate that far.
Regardless of the situation though I would have chosen Luke over anyone else in S2.
Why not make the final fight Jane v Kenny, but keep Luke alive?
Just have him shack up with you guys in the truck, then he gets lost and finds his way to the rest stop after the fight.
Then you can choose to stay with Kenny/Jane (and Luke will tag along), or leave them and go with Luke only, taking the alone ending and rebuilding it into Luke's ending
For the Kenny ending, they could have it change to where they can let all but one person in, and have either A) choose which one stays, and which one goes, or
keep it the way it is now, with you, AJ and now Luke all going in, but Kenny deciding to stay behind.
All the current endings are still there, Luke can appear in all of the endings, and he can get an ending of his own.
Problem (mostly) solved.
On another note, I've been thinking about something. Was the Luke v Kenny conflict truly planned, or is that a byproduct of episode 3/4's writing? The furthest episode 2 took it was choosing which one to sit with, which was less of choosing between the two, as much as it was choosing between the groups: do you go with the newer group with a murky past, or do you go with your old 'friend', despite his problems?
It was only in episodes 3 and 4 that a conflict seemed to develop between the two, which coincidentally happen to be the episodes Breckon didn't write. That conflict was basically gone in episode 5 (written by Breckon, mind you) and the two immediately seemed to stop arguing with one another, the focus shifting back over to Jane instead.
What if the Kenny and Jane conflict was the one that they were aiming for over the course of the season, but due to the writing blunders, they unintentionally made it look like it was gearing towards Kenny and Luke instead, effectively misleading everyone?
water is wet
sky is blue
trees are green
people have blood
It would have been a very interesting fight. Kenny is missing an eye and Luke is shot in the leg.
Luke would have had more physical strength in the fight then Jane.
Kenny would not be in rage over AJ as Luke would never do that so he may be able to think straighter.
It also would have been a cruel twist of irony if Kenny killed Luke with his own machete.
And I think the stats would be much more different-25% Looked Away 75% Killed Kenny.
Also a Luke ending could be something like you return to the cabin and start a new life with AJ.
They didn't have any real differences, people just hyped it up.
@Carverwasagoodman - what a nice username. I think I'm gonna like you.
ice is cold
I think that would've been too expected. People already thought Luke was gonna be a part of the pizza vs. ice cream decision, so I'm honestly glad TellTale cut off Luke's story where they did.
You sir deserve a medal for this. But you're right, Jane should've been the middle person, kinda observing these two charcters with Clem and giving the girl her own personal opinions, kinda like how in the Game Of Thrones episode I think you could ask a character what you thought of these two people on who to pick for this special role thing [I've only seen it once, I can't remember the details XD]
But yeah, I would've been more hooked and so satified if they'd done the Kenny/Luke decision. It didn't even have to be a fight, but if it had been one I always thought it would've been something where Luke just tried do what was best for Clem and A.J and if that meant trying to get the pair away from Kenny who he might've viewed as dangerous by that point, that alone might've been enough to set Kenny off [although no hiding the baby business]. Luke isn't really a violent person so it'd have it'd have to come from something like that, but I don't think the decision would've leaned more in Luke's favor, because if we'd been bonding equally as much with Kenny as we did in the finale, then we'd understand where Kenny is coming from and maybe might've view Luke as jumping to conclusions; others meanwhile might think Luke is right and they're heading for disaster the longer they stay with this guy.
So really we'd understand what both are aiming for the same goals in protecting these kids, but they just don't see that in the other, and you playing as Clem may side with one or the other, or fail in convincing them the other is doing the right thing. It'd of been like watching both your friends you've bonded with from each season in a struggle you're forced to break up. It would've made that decision so difficult that even if I'd of gone for Luke, I'd of still felt like crap for putting down Kenny because I care about him too.
However, Jane might've worked much more successfully if she'd been present right from the get go in Season 2, but sadly she wasn't and that's why I don't like her so forced into that decision and why it ruined the game for me...yup, I am not looking forward to Season 3 T_T
[sings] Lemme take you to my favorite place, just a five hour drive from the city. Just follow the road until it stops, and then keep walking for another forty minutes.
Then out of nowhere, there it is...
My cabin
[Continues singing reference only one other person on this forum is going to get XD]
But yeah, cool ideas.
I would much rather have preferred a Kenny vs. Luke than a Kenny vs. Jane. Even if they honestly couldn't find a believable way to have Luke and Kenny fight, (And I think there were ways it could have been done, especially if Kenny and Luke got into arguments about how to raise AJ, seeing as Luke knew Rebecca more than Kenny ever did and so on.) maybe there should have been an option to choose one or the other. Or neither. It would have been cool if Jane's role had ended at Amid the Ruins, leaving Clem behind with the idea that she could make it on her own if she wanted to. When she came back and killed Vitali I was just like, "Why the fuck are you still here go far, far away."
In Episode 4 the two were constantly disagreeing (eg; over whether to wait for Rebecca t recover or not) and by Episode 5 I think Luke had grown too weak to oppose Kenny- not just physically (he'd been shot in the leg) but mentally (he spoke to Clem about being the last one of his group). He and Kenny still had major differences, just that he'd grown to tired to take on Kenny a role which Mike then took over. Having said that, I would've liked to see Luke go out defending what he believed in rather than just dying a hopeless, broken character.
Well for a start that planning to hide AJ part would go- in any case, it was a pretty stupid plot for Jane to do that. But I DO think the situation could escalate to a fight if Kenny had just killed Bonnie, Mike and Arvo.
You used my idea. And you're a Half Life Fan take my like.
I honestly don´t think Luke would side with three people abandoning them without supplies...especially when the ones being abandoned include a baby.
I always figured they was cool with one another during Episode 5 due to the campfire scene where they joked around with one another. Not only that, but I just don't see how Kenny and Luke would've got into a fight to the death. Luke wouldn't have hid the baby in the first place, and I don't really think Luke would've been for going back to Howe's. Hell, he might've been for it, but I don't figure he would. I....just don't see how the two of them would've gotten to the point of trying to kill one another.
Interesting point. Maybe Breckon would have put in more conflict between Jane and Kenny (which would've made sense then) but the other writers messed up? Still, having to kill either Kenny or Luke would make the game better, because the choice would be a lot harder and the outcome more painful to the player. See, when you let Kenny kill Jane there's not really that much emotion, because you later find out that she was trying to get Kenny to fight her by hiding the baby. In a Kenny V Luke fight, I'd have gotten rid of that element and there'd be a lot more emotion in making the decision- do you kill the guy who saved you and has been with you all throughout season or the person who's been with you since the beginning? That decision would have me thinking twice, and I'm a hardcore Kenny fan!
On your last point, I totally agree- it was very misleading in my opinion, and it wasn't till there was some Jane-Clem interaction that I ever even thought there could be a Kenny-Jane fight. I didn't see Luke's death coming one bit, and it was a really poor death too- totally underserving for the way he had become one of Clem's closest allies and one of the best characters in season 2.
Thank you
Really?
1. Kenny wanted to leave Howe's soon, Luke wanted to wait
2. Kenny wanted to leave straight after Rebecca gave birth, Luke wanted to wait
3. Luke thought Kenny was a bit nuts, Kenny thought Luke wasn't trustworthy and thought they'd left them at Howe's
4. Luke didn't want to kill Carver, Kenny bashed his face in
5. Luke didn't blame Arvo, Kenny did
6. Luke wanted to go to Arvo's cabin and thought he was trying to help, Kenny didn't believe him.
I could keep going, but that would take to long. The differences between the two are substantial.
When Kenny killed Arvo, Mike and Bonnie I imagine Luke will have been real mad with Kenny, and they hadn't seen eye to eye from the beginning. The campfire scene was a lost chance to create tension between the characters in my opinion, but I guess Telltale were trying to tell us something (I don't know, enjoy the little things in life?) with that scene. And even in that scene there was disagreement since Kenny didn't want to give any drink to Arvo. As for that dumb hiding the baby thing, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, Luke would probably go back to the cabin OR possibly to Howe's because he knew there were supplies there.
Also, you see how they couldn't have a fight to the death. Well you could say the same about Jane and Kenny- hell, they didn't interact very often and there only main disagreement was over were to head next. The whole hiding the baby thing was stupid, and why would Clem even think about killing Kenny when she hasn't known Jane NEARLY as long as she's known Kenny, plus Jane has just gone and lost/killed the baby (we think).
The Kenny/Jane choice was obviously improvised because if you dig through the episodes files, originally Jane would drown instead of Luke and there would be a choice between Kenny/Luke which makes sense since they've had a tense relationship since 3/4/ 2014 and Jane came out of nowhere and just randomly started hating Kenny. Why? Is it because when Luke was doing it with Jane he said that Kenny is useless to the group and too angry? Jane was simply a plot device since episode 3 onward just like Sarita bu Kenny vs. Luke makes total sense but they decided to kill Luke 3 minutes before the episode started because Luke's death was probably the shittiest of the season along with Nick in episode 4. I left Wellington with Kenny BTW.
Well for a start he liked them all, especially Bonnie. He would be mad at them, but he never would as gone as far as to kill them. Remember what he was like with Carver? That guy had murdered his friends and done all manner of terrible things, yet till the end Luke didn't want to kill him.