I did. Arvo just didn't give a shit by that point.
I made an effort to quote the fandom's beloved Kenny:
Does she think, because she's a little girl, she can just get people killed and nobody will care? That because she's 'sorry', it'll all be magically better? THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!
I notice that you left out the part where the little girl puts down her gun and is no longer a threat to any of them, after doing everything in her power to keep the bearded man from continuing to abuse you.
I believe she was originally supposed to have Sickle Cell Anemia, however, they removed the Russian audio to indicate it, so I guess the idea was scrapped.
The Russians in general are extremely incompetent survivors, when you think about it.
Most of their incompetence also seems driven by the fact that it was convenient for the plot, the shootout is probably the biggest example of this to the point of where it was unbelievable that nobody on the protagonist side died. As well as Arvo having the medicine, he needed to be robbed so even though it would make no sense for them to send the youngest, most inexperienced (Assuming by the poor way Arvo handles guns and his overall demeanor I think this can be inferred.) person of the group out alone with medicine, they did it anyway because plot said so.
I did.
After a moment's hesitation, you prepare to stash your medicine in a trash-can - unlike the house, this place has a metal gate,… more an actual roof, and a vantage point from which you can spot intruders. Barry will surely be impressed and think to move here immediately.
It makes no sense, but so does Arvo being entrusted with his group's only medicine bag and walking alone to a new location. I tried my best to understand that bizarre incompetence. The Russians in general are extremely incompetent survivors, when you think about it.
Not giving a shit makes it okay to shoot unarmed little girls? I know Arvo's had it rough, rougher than most, but there's no justifying him trying to murder a defenseless child for what he thinks is revenge.
And I noticed that you quoted Kenny there, but here's the thing: Kenny didn't try to murder Clem for "Getting Sarita killed." Arvo DID try to murder Clem after she "Got Natasha killed." Kenny had a gun, he had the opportunity just like Arvo, but he never pulled the trigger, and he never threatened her. He just told her to fuck off so he could be alone and that, while still an asshole thing to say, isn't really comparable to Arvo shooting Clem after she, in my game, came to his aid every chance she got.
I did. Arvo just didn't give a shit by that point.
I made an effort to quote the fandom's beloved Kenny:
Does she think, because s… morehe's a little girl, she can just get people killed and nobody will care? That because she's 'sorry', it'll all be magically better? THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!
Doesn't matter 'cause they always were meant to die mere seconds after being introduced.
I'd rather they'd have killed off a few members of Clem's group (maybe Luke and Bonnie) so as to be more realistic and justify why people might hold a grudge against the survivors.
As for the Arvo-haters coming in with conclusions already formed, the point of my original post was to just force you to imagine being in a foreign land. To be in his position.
Kenny saying "No speake de English" might be hilarious to a bigot, but I'm pretty sure that if a Chinese/Russian/Congolese bastard was screaming similar insults to an American kid he'd seem like a jack-ass. And you'd be right to think that. Empathy isn't that hard.
I believe she was originally supposed to have Sickle Cell Anemia, however, they removed the Russian audio to indicate it, so I guess the idea was scrapped.
I'm not justifying Arvo's actions. I'm trying to find a reason for them. Players have already bent over backwards to try to find reasons for Carver's insane actions, up to and including hurting (and determinantly murdering) Clem.
And I'm pretty sure it's fair to compare Arvo to Kenny as they're both stupid men whose anger blinds them to reason and makes them act self-destructively. Amid The Ruins makes a point to show Kenny's gun next to his hand when he's ranting and raving moronically at Clem - blaming her for something she had no control over, for "killing" his loved one - and it's only because the writers love him that he's not allowed to physically strike Clem.
And Arvo daring Kenny to beat him to death? It's suicidal, just like Kenny wanted Carver to beat his brains out too.
Not giving a shit makes it okay to shoot unarmed little girls? I know Arvo's had it rough, rougher than most, but there's no justifying him … moretrying to murder a defenseless child for what he thinks is revenge.
And I noticed that you quoted Kenny there, but here's the thing: Kenny didn't try to murder Clem for "Getting Sarita killed." Arvo DID try to murder Clem after she "Got Natasha killed." Kenny had a gun, he had the opportunity just like Arvo, but he never pulled the trigger, and he never threatened her. He just told her to fuck off so he could be alone and that, while still an asshole thing to say, isn't really comparable to Arvo shooting Clem after she, in my game, came to his aid every chance she got.
It pisses me off because I think it'd have been cool if they were the opposite - Arvo's claims that "there are many of us, we live in the woods" made me imagine that they were a bunch of hardened woodsmen who were much more ruthless and dangerous than Carver was.
Then Buricko ends up being unable to kill anyone despite opening fire at point-blank range.
The Russians in general are extremely incompetent survivors, when you think about it.
Most of their incompetence also seems driven b… morey the fact that it was convenient for the plot, the shootout is probably the biggest example of this to the point of where it was unbelievable that nobody on the protagonist side died. As well as Arvo having the medicine, he needed to be robbed so even though it would make no sense for them to send the youngest, most inexperienced (Assuming by the poor way Arvo handles guns and his overall demeanor I think this can be inferred.) person of the group out alone with medicine, they did it anyway because plot said so.
It just pisses me off in general that they existed to die. That was the literal purpose of the rest of Arvo's companions, to die. I too, when hearing that line, believed that there was a whole group of people living out in the woods. Before No Going Back came out I didn't even think that Natasha was Arvo's sister, I assumed his sister was back at their camp with a fuckton of other people or something. Zero effort was put into any of them.
And let's not forget that Vitali and Buricko switched guns, did they really not give that much of a shit to the point of where they let a mistake like that slide? (Mysterious Russian majyyks, I guess.)
It pisses me off because I think it'd have been cool if they were the opposite - Arvo's claims that "there are many of us, we live in the wo… moreods" made me imagine that they were a bunch of hardened woodsmen who were much more ruthless and dangerous than Carver was.
Then Buricko ends up being unable to kill anyone despite opening fire at point-blank range.
I had the same idea! I actually hoped that most of Clem's group would be killed, and that Arvo's fate would be left determinant - Kenny would try to execute him on the spot, but Clem can convince him to spare her so that he can be a hostage. It'd seem that the 'town' mentioned at the end of Episode 4 would have been the ideal place for the Russians to live at.
I was also clinging onto the idea that the 'sister' was Christa.
But lol no the commies gotta die. It's Call of Duty all over again.
It just pisses me off in general that they existed to die. That was the literal purpose of the rest of Arvo's companions, to die. I too, whe… moren hearing that line, believed that there was a whole group of people living out in the woods. Before No Going Back came out I didn't even think that Natasha was Arvo's sister, I assumed his sister was back at their camp with a fuckton of other people or something. Zero effort was put into any of them.
And let's not forget that Vitali and Buricko switched guns, did they really not give that much of a shit to the point of where they let a mistake like that slide? (Mysterious Russian majyyks, I guess.)
Still would have been interesting if Natasha did have a disease so the people who did rob Arvo could have a bigger dilemma, however it would raise several questions, why would they bring the sick person to this dangerous meeting? What happened to the medicine, why would Arvo purposefully hide it from his sister? And if he didn't hide it, what happened to the bag? Did someone steal it or did it go missing and Arvo assumed we did it? I guess it was just easier to have her not be sick.
Doesn't matter 'cause they always were meant to die mere seconds after being introduced.
I'd rather they'd have killed off a few members … moreof Clem's group (maybe Luke and Bonnie) so as to be more realistic and justify why people might hold a grudge against the survivors.
As for the Arvo-haters coming in with conclusions already formed, the point of my original post was to just force you to imagine being in a foreign land. To be in his position.
Kenny saying "No speake de English" might be hilarious to a bigot, but I'm pretty sure that if a Chinese/Russian/Congolese bastard was screaming similar insults to an American kid he'd seem like a jack-ass. And you'd be right to think that. Empathy isn't that hard.
But Kenny would appear less badass if his eye injury actually gave him any consequences. And lets not get into how he avoid having brain dam… moreage by sheer dumb luck. Come to think of it, Kenny seems to get 'lucky' a lot doesn't he?
The more I look at Kenny in Season 2, the more I think he's less of a character and more of a personification of a typical gamer's desires of what they want to be if they ever were in a zombie apocalypse. He's basically wish fulfilment given form.
I was actually fearing Arvo becoming determinant, that a lot of people would die on Clem's side, and Kenny would either execute him or he'd limp off into the woods and never be seen again, neither option allowing us to find anything else about the character.
I never considered Christa being with the Russians. However upon first seeing Arvo in the distance walking up to the deck all I noticed was that there was purple, and limping. (She did get her leg injured in the first episode.) I honestly believed that it was Christa and I was so excited and then felt very silly a minute later.)
I had the same idea! I actually hoped that most of Clem's group would be killed, and that Arvo's fate would be left determinant - Kenny wou… moreld try to execute him on the spot, but Clem can convince him to spare her so that he can be a hostage. It'd seem that the 'town' mentioned at the end of Episode 4 would have been the ideal place for the Russians to live at.
I was also clinging onto the idea that the 'sister' was Christa.
But lol no the commies gotta die. It's Call of Duty all over again.
I guess it just didn't matter. I know people are calling her and Arvo 'junkies' (because Arvo trembling in terror when meeting Clem is CLEARLY a sign that he's a meth freak), but I actually don't think that even that were true it's an excuse to value their lives less. Do people hate Clem for smoking and drinking?
And here's another example to try to get into why Kenny'd seem really unsympathetic:
Stupid white boy! You fucking whities are all the same - worthless. Go back to America, you arrogant shit!
It's hard to find an equivalent for anti-American sentiments, but I know anyone who'd spout that kind of bigotry would earn my hate.
Still would have been interesting if Natasha did have a disease so the people who did rob Arvo could have a bigger dilemma, however it would… more raise several questions, why would they bring the sick person to this dangerous meeting? What happened to the medicine, why would Arvo purposefully hide it from his sister? And if he didn't hide it, what happened to the bag? Did someone steal it or did it go missing and Arvo assumed we did it? I guess it was just easier to have her not be sick.
Maybe they had trouble thinking of a disease that would have negative consequences but she didn't necessarily have to be bed-ridden to have. I'm sure illnesses like that exist. Buuuuuuuut...medical accuracy isn't one of Telltale's strong points, clearly considering all the crazy injuries characters get. Kenny alone should have died about 50 times by now, whatever happened to the bullet he got from the St. Johns? He just got up and walked that off with not much else besides, "I'll be fine" if I can recall.
Maybe Arvo's sister was in on it too, whatever it was. I could speculate for hours on all the possible scenarios with the meds here but I'm not gonna right now.
Still would have been interesting if Natasha did have a disease so the people who did rob Arvo could have a bigger dilemma, however it would… more raise several questions, why would they bring the sick person to this dangerous meeting? What happened to the medicine, why would Arvo purposefully hide it from his sister? And if he didn't hide it, what happened to the bag? Did someone steal it or did it go missing and Arvo assumed we did it? I guess it was just easier to have her not be sick.
Whatever Arvo's reasons, in my mind they don't hold up. Just like whatever reasons Carver or Troy may have had don't hold up to me. Scumbags all, though obviously to different degrees.
They made it a point to show Kenny's gun in his hands to indicate that he was contemplating suicide, as indicated by him saying "Sarita, wherever you are, I'm sorry. I can't be alone again," as the camera zoomed in on it. He was never going to use it on Clem. He wasn't far enough gone to consider hurting her. It's not because the writers love Kenny that he didn't smack Clem, it's because Kenny wouldn't smack Clem.
Arvo wasn't daring Kenny to beat him to death, Arvo just had enough of Kenny's shit when he said "Fuck you." And I applauded him for saying that. I was thinking the same thing, and it was nice to see Arvo stand up for himself. He didn't want to die like Kenny did, he just wanted to be treated as a human being which, despite my dislike of him, I can completely understand. Especially after the horrible way he was treated.
I'm not justifying Arvo's actions. I'm trying to find a reason for them. Players have already bent over backwards to try to find reasons f… moreor Carver's insane actions, up to and including hurting (and determinantly murdering) Clem.
And I'm pretty sure it's fair to compare Arvo to Kenny as they're both stupid men whose anger blinds them to reason and makes them act self-destructively. Amid The Ruins makes a point to show Kenny's gun next to his hand when he's ranting and raving moronically at Clem - blaming her for something she had no control over, for "killing" his loved one - and it's only because the writers love him that he's not allowed to physically strike Clem.
And Arvo daring Kenny to beat him to death? It's suicidal, just like Kenny wanted Carver to beat his brains out too.
now people are calling her and Arvo 'junkies', but I actually don't think that even that were true it's an excuse to value their lives less.
Yeah, that kind of stuff really annoys me when people talk about certain characters. I hear a lot of people calling Bonnie a junkie lately, which somehow makes her a bad person. No one cared about her drug addiction when she was constantly helping us or when we were playing as her in 400 Days, but the moment she does something serious that people don't agree with, suddenly taking drugs makes you the Devil's incarnate. It's really weird watching this kind of thing.
I guess it just didn't matter. I know people are calling her and Arvo 'junkies' (because Arvo trembling in terror when meeting Clem is CLEA… moreRLY a sign that he's a meth freak), but I actually don't think that even that were true it's an excuse to value their lives less. Do people hate Clem for smoking and drinking?
And here's another example to try to get into why Kenny'd seem really unsympathetic:
Stupid white boy! You fucking whities are all the same - worthless. Go back to America, you arrogant shit!
It's hard to find an equivalent for anti-American sentiments, but I know anyone who'd spout that kind of bigotry would earn my hate.
I find the focus on Kenny's gun ambiguous in that scene. Regardless of whether he'd turn his anger inwards or outwards - Mike was terrified that Kenny was gonna shoot him - he's still taking it out on a girl who doesn't deserve it in any way.
It's not right that people blame Clem for doing what was right. Arvo was wrong for not thinking clearly. Kenny was wrong for thinking she'd killed Sarita. People are wrong for blaming Sarah for murdering Reggie/Carlos/Sarita.
Whatever Arvo's reasons, in my mind they don't hold up. Just like whatever reasons Carver or Troy may have had don't hold up to me. Scumbags… more all, though obviously to different degrees.
They made it a point to show Kenny's gun in his hands to indicate that he was contemplating suicide, as indicated by him saying "Sarita, wherever you are, I'm sorry. I can't be alone again," as the camera zoomed in on it. He was never going to use it on Clem. He wasn't far enough gone to consider hurting her. It's not because the writers love Kenny that he didn't smack Clem, it's because Kenny wouldn't smack Clem.
Arvo wasn't daring Kenny to beat him to death, Arvo just had enough of Kenny's shit when he said "Fuck you." And I applauded him for saying that. I was thinking the same thing, and it was nice to see Arvo stand up for himself. He didn't want to die like Kenny did, he just wanted to be treated as a human being which, despite my dislike of him, I can completely understand. Especially after the horrible way he was treated.
now people are calling her and Arvo 'junkies', but I actually don't think that even that were true it's an excuse to value their lives less.… more
Yeah, that kind of stuff really annoys me when people talk about certain characters. I hear a lot of people calling Bonnie a junkie lately, which somehow makes her a bad person. No one cared about her drug addiction when she was constantly helping us or when we were playing as her in 400 Days, but the moment she does something serious that people don't agree with, suddenly taking drugs makes you the Devil's incarnate. It's really weird watching this kind of thing.
Actually, even back in 400 Days quite a number of people distrusted her and thought Dee - the murderous woman with the hideous face - was right to call her a 'junkie'. Apparently it's Bonnie's fault for seducing Leland, even though it's pretty obvious that she was in an extremely vulnerable position and was grateful to him for saving her.
It's a bit like Sarah, I guess. It's easy to hate on vulnerable people. Never mind that everybody is vulnerable in some way, and they wouldn't see the logic in being preyed on just because of that.
now people are calling her and Arvo 'junkies', but I actually don't think that even that were true it's an excuse to value their lives less.… more
Yeah, that kind of stuff really annoys me when people talk about certain characters. I hear a lot of people calling Bonnie a junkie lately, which somehow makes her a bad person. No one cared about her drug addiction when she was constantly helping us or when we were playing as her in 400 Days, but the moment she does something serious that people don't agree with, suddenly taking drugs makes you the Devil's incarnate. It's really weird watching this kind of thing.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the gun thing. I can't see Kenny physically harming anyone but himself at that point, personally, but the focus on the gun could have meant a number of things.
Kenny talking all that shit to Clem was certainly not right in any way, because she did all she could do to save Sarita. But that's one of Kenny's negative sides. He takes out his anger on others when he's in pain, even when they don't deserve it like Clem and Arvo didn't deserve it. He's been doing it since Long Road Ahead.
As for Sarah, agreed. It wasn't her fault Carlos/Sarita/Reggie died. I don't blame her for that stuff.
I find the focus on Kenny's gun ambiguous in that scene. Regardless of whether he'd turn his anger inwards or outwards - Mike was terrified… more that Kenny was gonna shoot him - he's still taking it out on a girl who doesn't deserve it in any way.
It's not right that people blame Clem for doing what was right. Arvo was wrong for not thinking clearly. Kenny was wrong for thinking she'd killed Sarita. People are wrong for blaming Sarah for murdering Reggie/Carlos/Sarita.
I guess I just assumed people would find no fault in Bonnie when we played as her. My mistake, I just assumed because most people assume the protagonist is someone who can do no harm, even when they are clearly doing something wrong.
Actually, even back in 400 Days quite a number of people distrusted her and thought Dee - the murderous woman with the hideous face - was ri… moreght to call her a 'junkie'. Apparently it's Bonnie's fault for seducing Leland, even though it's pretty obvious that she was in an extremely vulnerable position and was grateful to him for saving her.
It's a bit like Sarah, I guess. It's easy to hate on vulnerable people. Never mind that everybody is vulnerable in some way, and they wouldn't see the logic in being preyed on just because of that.
They hate her because she's a woman who isn't pretty and was 'cheating' on a man. (Although she still looked cute to me....)
Never mind that Vince is literally a murderer, "hilarious" Eddie actually murdered Nate's friend, Russell has the option of staying with a bandit who murders a married couple, and Shel has the option of killing her friend without even talking to her.
I guess I just assumed people would find no fault in Bonnie when we played as her. My mistake, I just assumed because most people assume the protagonist is someone who can do no harm, even when they are clearly doing something wrong.
This is incredibly well written, but I have to ask. At the last part.
he girl walks out, gun in hand, and starts threatening you with it. Your blood runs cold - is this another trap? Are your new friends going to die again, and you left to starve in the ice? The black man, kind as always, moves slowly towards the girl, trying in vain to take her gun.
Is this American Arvo being to angry/confused to understand what's happening or did Russian Clem take the [Threaten] route?
I actually wrote this scenario under the assumption that Clem was as supportive as the game allowed her to be. I can actually see some logic in shooting her if she were to call for the one-eyed man, but shooting her after she's dropped her gun is just pure spite. Arvo's reaction shows that he only grasped the severity of his actions once it actually happened - revenge was far less sweet than he'd wanted it to be.
This is incredibly well written, but I have to ask. At the last part.
he girl walks out, gun in hand, and starts threatening you with … moreit. Your blood runs cold - is this another trap? Are your new friends going to die again, and you left to starve in the ice? The black man, kind as always, moves slowly towards the girl, trying in vain to take her gun.
Is this American Arvo being to angry/confused to understand what's happening or did Russian Clem take the [Threaten] route?
I've grown sick of the developers' extremely transparent emotional manipulation after Episode 4. I suppose I could write a sob story for Tr… moreoy too, but weirdly enough it seems as though that guy already has fans despite being far less sympathetic than Arvo ever was.
I was also clinging onto the idea that the 'sister' was Christa.
Okay I'm sorry but thats just daft. Really christa also if arvo returns him not being determian t is crucial.
Also about wasting characters, the russian group (apart from arvo) were red shirts, more detailed save lots bandits who were meant to show even those groups arent inhuman. How its more inhuman than shooting some of the bandits in season 1 I dont know, we never really even talk to any of them how do we know what their all like, same with carvers camp.
Also, for me I'd rather they all die than our group just being shot down instead, people were moaning in ep 4 that they were just gonna throw away everyone but Ken,Clem,Luke and the baby. And to be honest I'm glad they didnt.
For me the Arvo thing could have worked if they'd played it a slightly different way, say the way he shoots her is more of a panic rather than that. Or better, Seeing as the gunshot barely bothers her arvo smacks her in the head with the gun while shes holding mike and bonnie at gunpoint, he still hits her after everything but its a bit more believable, plus a lee dream anyway
I had the same idea! I actually hoped that most of Clem's group would be killed, and that Arvo's fate would be left determinant - Kenny wou… moreld try to execute him on the spot, but Clem can convince him to spare her so that he can be a hostage. It'd seem that the 'town' mentioned at the end of Episode 4 would have been the ideal place for the Russians to live at.
I was also clinging onto the idea that the 'sister' was Christa.
But lol no the commies gotta die. It's Call of Duty all over again.
Hey, no matter how 'unrealistic' Telltale deemed Christa's return was, she still had a more likely chance of reuniting with Clem than Kenny ever did.
And yeah, I personally dislike the use of 'disposable red-shirts' because they're a genre cliche that's a bit antithetical to the game's purpose of making you empathize with even morally-questionable people. The Russians SHOULD have been more complex, just like how Carver's community should have had a more neutral portrayal than "evil fortress of bad-guys that you MUST destroy."
Arvo shooting Clem in a panic works if she yells out for Kenny. But shooting her in the first place was a bad idea, yeah. I guess Telltale already used the "whacking Clem with a rifle-butt" trick with Troy. :P
I was also clinging onto the idea that the 'sister' was Christa.
Okay I'm sorry but thats just daft. Really christa also if arvo ret… moreurns him not being determian t is crucial.
Also about wasting characters, the russian group (apart from arvo) were red shirts, more detailed save lots bandits who were meant to show even those groups arent inhuman. How its more inhuman than shooting some of the bandits in season 1 I dont know, we never really even talk to any of them how do we know what their all like, same with carvers camp.
Also, for me I'd rather they all die than our group just being shot down instead, people were moaning in ep 4 that they were just gonna throw away everyone but Ken,Clem,Luke and the baby. And to be honest I'm glad they didnt.
For me the Arvo thing could have worked if they'd played it a slightly different way, say the way he shoots her is more of a panic rather than that. Or better, Seeing as the gunshot ba… [view original content]
Good post. I actually empathized with Arvo at the start. Didn't take his medicine and sided with the rest of his group about Kenny needing to lay off. I tried talking to him, but the game didn't want to give me a lot of options there. I still stand by my decision of calling Kenny and Jane on account of not wanting to freeze to death.
Nice way to try to get people to see things from Arvo's perspective. Maybe you'll even succeed with some although I think most people that hate Arvo have their heels dug in.
Winston I can agree I didn't care much for, but Troy could have been done in a less stereotypical way. I have a strange interest in sadist characters, (I've spent far too much of my younger years reading about sadistic PD.) and I wish they had found a way to make Troy both sadistic and complex. He'd still be an irredeemable scumbag, but at least one that could generate some interesting discussion. If not that route, then show maybe he's got some standards. Even the look he was giving Carver while he was beating the life out of Kenny, just a small hint of something more than a cliche, but this goes nowhere in the end. Troy is largely insignificant in the long run but he's still one of the characters I wished had more development.
But you're definitely right about Arvo, he was the most sympathetic 'villain' of S2. If the writers actually thought about him for more than a minute they could have continued to build on him instead of going with the shit they did put out. Every single time I was forced to listen to Jane or Kenny drone on about the same trite stuff I already know about them, I was just anticipating when we'd get to talk to Arvo. Mike got to build a relationship with him, (I'm jealous.) but their first interaction that we got to see was Arvo screaming at Mike to leave him alone and by the end of the episode they were leaving the group together. But even though from then on there were just implied interactions, ("Mike and Arvo wouldn't shut up"-Jane) what if Clementine got the same chance as Mike did? Arvo said to Clem, "I wish we could have met differently," there were so many opportunities throughout the episode to talk to him.
At the power-station, Arvo shuns Clementine's attempts to talk to him. What if the next morning after he's had a night to mourn she was able to try again and actually gets somewhere this time? What if Clementine was able to call Arvo out on why he keeps glaring at her? If she got to be the one to help him directly when Kenny beat him instead of Mike? Clem could have explained what happened with his sister and maybe Arvo would come to see her as the kind person like he did before. I wish we were able to connect with Arvo. But the writers didn't try, they just looked for the cheapest, easiest way out with him and that was basically the nail in the coffin for me when forming my final opinions of the season overall, and when he comes back in S3 there's no way in hell they're going to give him a chance. No way in hell. He'll come back and his sole purpose will be to die, just wait.
Well, I do hate Troy and Winston. The former's a sociopathic bully while the latter is literally a child-murderer. Neither of those guys h… moreave anything remotely redeemable about them, but then again they weren't intended to be. The difference with Arvo is that he IS a very vulnerable character - he even has Sarah's glasses, which subconsciously draw parallels between him and her - and therefore my pity/sympathy is activated for him.
It would be nice if I could believe Telltale really did intend for us to be empathetic even when barely any information is provided for you. But it only takes a cursory look at the 'net's reactions to realize the simplistic conclusions they come to, and quite often it boils down to "Badass = Good" and "Anyone who opposes our protagonist/favorite character and isn't badass must be Stalin reincarnated."
It'd be a hilariously bold move if Arvo were to return in Season 3 and NOT end up being humiliated/set up… [view original content]
I suppose the reason why the dialogue lines which implicated Troy as sexually abusing Jane were removed was to make her killing of him more ambiguous. Or it may have been just a cheap penis joke, I dunno. It's 'funny' how Luke is stupidly against Carver's death while still being absolutely fine with Jane murdering one of Carver's thugs in an even more brutal manner.
And yeah, I personally found it very irritating how the devs provided Clem no chance to talk to him, making MIKE more socially adept and empathetic than her. It goes against my best efforts to make her a compassionate person who favors the underdogs.
Telltale'sClementine
I find it bizarre that Mike & Bonnie are simultaneously kind enough to forgive and protect Arvo while also abandoning a baby and a little girl - the latter of whom they had been shown to genuinely care for - to starve/freeze to death. Just another case of forced drama - it's clearly possible for them to stand up to Kenny and save Arvo WITHOUT fucking over the children?
Winston I can agree I didn't care much for, but Troy could have been done in a less stereotypical way. I have a strange interest in sadist c… moreharacters, (I've spent far too much of my younger years reading about sadistic PD.) and I wish they had found a way to make Troy both sadistic and complex. He'd still be an irredeemable scumbag, but at least one that could generate some interesting discussion. If not that route, then show maybe he's got some standards. Even the look he was giving Carver while he was beating the life out of Kenny, just a small hint of something more than a cliche, but this goes nowhere in the end. Troy is largely insignificant in the long run but he's still one of the characters I wished had more development.
But you're definitely right about Arvo, he was the most sympathetic 'villain' of S2. If the writers actually thought about him for more than a minute they could have continued to build on him instead of going with … [view original content]
Aside from Arvo altogether, one of the problems I have with the 'betrayal' scene is that Bonnie and Mike are punished for daring to standing up to the unstable and violent Kenny, and they do so in an out-of-character fashion with the supplies and truck theft.
The drama also felt forced, because I suspect that Telltale didn't want to create a scenario where Kenny would actually be condemned by his group for his actions.
I suppose the reason why the dialogue lines which implicated Troy as sexually abusing Jane were removed was to make her killing of him more … moreambiguous. Or it may have been just a cheap penis joke, I dunno. It's 'funny' how Luke is stupidly against Carver's death while still being absolutely fine with Jane murdering one of Carver's thugs in an even more brutal manner.
And yeah, I personally found it very irritating how the devs provided Clem no chance to talk to him, making MIKE more socially adept and empathetic than her. It goes against my best efforts to make her a compassionate person who favors the underdogs.
Telltale'sClementine
I find it bizarre that Mike & Bonnie are simultaneously kind enough to forgive and protect Arvo while also abandoning a baby and a little girl - the latter of whom they had been shown to genuinely care for - to starve/freeze to death. Just another case of forced drama - it's clearly possible for them to stand up to Kenny and save Arvo WITHOUT fucking over the children?
Troy getting shot in the dick was totally for dark humor I think. He was a joke of a character anyway so I guess they wanted to make his death the same way.
If given the chance to talk to him, it's practically inevitable that Arvo will at one point ask, "Why'd you murder my sister." Clem will tell him and his reason for hating her would have gone out the window. This laziness was probably what I hated most about the finale.
I honestly can't find a way to rationalize why they did that. I try sometimes but it just doesn't fit, especially when they care for Arvo, but not Clementine. I can sort of understand them taking the car. If they had decided to just stay at the house, the next morning Kenny would likely throw a fit and take both the car and all the stuff or maybe even try to attack them, considering he flew into a rage just because the others had differing ideas than he did. Or from their perspective they'd assume he'd do so. But they left in the middle of the night, they could have taken half of the supplies instead of it all, but they needed to have that 'dramatic betrayal' moment, previous characterization be damned. I also don't like the accusations of Bonnie and Mike being gullible and naive for wanting to leave, as if they were mindless sheep whom supervillain Arvo manipulated into leaving their dear friend Kenny, nevermind that they actually stated they can't stand him and want to get out and implied in past episodes that they are uneasy around Kenny.
I suppose the reason why the dialogue lines which implicated Troy as sexually abusing Jane were removed was to make her killing of him more … moreambiguous. Or it may have been just a cheap penis joke, I dunno. It's 'funny' how Luke is stupidly against Carver's death while still being absolutely fine with Jane murdering one of Carver's thugs in an even more brutal manner.
And yeah, I personally found it very irritating how the devs provided Clem no chance to talk to him, making MIKE more socially adept and empathetic than her. It goes against my best efforts to make her a compassionate person who favors the underdogs.
Telltale'sClementine
I find it bizarre that Mike & Bonnie are simultaneously kind enough to forgive and protect Arvo while also abandoning a baby and a little girl - the latter of whom they had been shown to genuinely care for - to starve/freeze to death. Just another case of forced drama - it's clearly possible for them to stand up to Kenny and save Arvo WITHOUT fucking over the children?
Comments
I did. Arvo just didn't give a shit by that point.
I made an effort to quote the fandom's beloved Kenny:
I'll take that as a compliment, seeing as you're too illiterate to even read the first sentence.
I believe she was originally supposed to have Sickle Cell Anemia, however, they removed the Russian audio to indicate it, so I guess the idea was scrapped.
Most of their incompetence also seems driven by the fact that it was convenient for the plot, the shootout is probably the biggest example of this to the point of where it was unbelievable that nobody on the protagonist side died. As well as Arvo having the medicine, he needed to be robbed so even though it would make no sense for them to send the youngest, most inexperienced (Assuming by the poor way Arvo handles guns and his overall demeanor I think this can be inferred.) person of the group out alone with medicine, they did it anyway because plot said so.
Not giving a shit makes it okay to shoot unarmed little girls? I know Arvo's had it rough, rougher than most, but there's no justifying him trying to murder a defenseless child for what he thinks is revenge.
And I noticed that you quoted Kenny there, but here's the thing: Kenny didn't try to murder Clem for "Getting Sarita killed." Arvo DID try to murder Clem after she "Got Natasha killed." Kenny had a gun, he had the opportunity just like Arvo, but he never pulled the trigger, and he never threatened her. He just told her to fuck off so he could be alone and that, while still an asshole thing to say, isn't really comparable to Arvo shooting Clem after she, in my game, came to his aid every chance she got.
Doesn't matter 'cause they always were meant to die mere seconds after being introduced.
I'd rather they'd have killed off a few members of Clem's group (maybe Luke and Bonnie) so as to be more realistic and justify why people might hold a grudge against the survivors.
As for the Arvo-haters coming in with conclusions already formed, the point of my original post was to just force you to imagine being in a foreign land. To be in his position.
Kenny saying "No speake de English" might be hilarious to a bigot, but I'm pretty sure that if a Chinese/Russian/Congolese bastard was screaming similar insults to an American kid he'd seem like a jack-ass. And you'd be right to think that. Empathy isn't that hard.
I'm not justifying Arvo's actions. I'm trying to find a reason for them. Players have already bent over backwards to try to find reasons for Carver's insane actions, up to and including hurting (and determinantly murdering) Clem.
And I'm pretty sure it's fair to compare Arvo to Kenny as they're both stupid men whose anger blinds them to reason and makes them act self-destructively. Amid The Ruins makes a point to show Kenny's gun next to his hand when he's ranting and raving moronically at Clem - blaming her for something she had no control over, for "killing" his loved one - and it's only because the writers love him that he's not allowed to physically strike Clem.
And Arvo daring Kenny to beat him to death? It's suicidal, just like Kenny wanted Carver to beat his brains out too.
It pisses me off because I think it'd have been cool if they were the opposite - Arvo's claims that "there are many of us, we live in the woods" made me imagine that they were a bunch of hardened woodsmen who were much more ruthless and dangerous than Carver was.
Then Buricko ends up being unable to kill anyone despite opening fire at point-blank range.
It just pisses me off in general that they existed to die. That was the literal purpose of the rest of Arvo's companions, to die. I too, when hearing that line, believed that there was a whole group of people living out in the woods. Before No Going Back came out I didn't even think that Natasha was Arvo's sister, I assumed his sister was back at their camp with a fuckton of other people or something. Zero effort was put into any of them.
And let's not forget that Vitali and Buricko switched guns, did they really not give that much of a shit to the point of where they let a mistake like that slide? (Mysterious Russian majyyks, I guess.)
I had the same idea! I actually hoped that most of Clem's group would be killed, and that Arvo's fate would be left determinant - Kenny would try to execute him on the spot, but Clem can convince him to spare her so that he can be a hostage. It'd seem that the 'town' mentioned at the end of Episode 4 would have been the ideal place for the Russians to live at.
I was also clinging onto the idea that the 'sister' was Christa.
But lol no the commies gotta die. It's Call of Duty all over again.
Still would have been interesting if Natasha did have a disease so the people who did rob Arvo could have a bigger dilemma, however it would raise several questions, why would they bring the sick person to this dangerous meeting? What happened to the medicine, why would Arvo purposefully hide it from his sister? And if he didn't hide it, what happened to the bag? Did someone steal it or did it go missing and Arvo assumed we did it? I guess it was just easier to have her not be sick.
I think the 'brain damage' caused by his beating is actually his excuse for flying off the handle and becoming even more violent.
I was actually fearing Arvo becoming determinant, that a lot of people would die on Clem's side, and Kenny would either execute him or he'd limp off into the woods and never be seen again, neither option allowing us to find anything else about the character.
I never considered Christa being with the Russians. However upon first seeing Arvo in the distance walking up to the deck all I noticed was that there was purple, and limping. (She did get her leg injured in the first episode.) I honestly believed that it was Christa and I was so excited and then felt very silly a minute later.)
He left it to her as a parting gift.
I guess it just didn't matter. I know people are calling her and Arvo 'junkies' (because Arvo trembling in terror when meeting Clem is CLEARLY a sign that he's a meth freak), but I actually don't think that even that were true it's an excuse to value their lives less. Do people hate Clem for smoking and drinking?
And here's another example to try to get into why Kenny'd seem really unsympathetic:
It's hard to find an equivalent for anti-American sentiments, but I know anyone who'd spout that kind of bigotry would earn my hate.
Maybe they had trouble thinking of a disease that would have negative consequences but she didn't necessarily have to be bed-ridden to have. I'm sure illnesses like that exist. Buuuuuuuut...medical accuracy isn't one of Telltale's strong points, clearly considering all the crazy injuries characters get. Kenny alone should have died about 50 times by now, whatever happened to the bullet he got from the St. Johns? He just got up and walked that off with not much else besides, "I'll be fine" if I can recall.
Maybe Arvo's sister was in on it too, whatever it was. I could speculate for hours on all the possible scenarios with the meds here but I'm not gonna right now.
Whatever Arvo's reasons, in my mind they don't hold up. Just like whatever reasons Carver or Troy may have had don't hold up to me. Scumbags all, though obviously to different degrees.
They made it a point to show Kenny's gun in his hands to indicate that he was contemplating suicide, as indicated by him saying "Sarita, wherever you are, I'm sorry. I can't be alone again," as the camera zoomed in on it. He was never going to use it on Clem. He wasn't far enough gone to consider hurting her. It's not because the writers love Kenny that he didn't smack Clem, it's because Kenny wouldn't smack Clem.
Arvo wasn't daring Kenny to beat him to death, Arvo just had enough of Kenny's shit when he said "Fuck you." And I applauded him for saying that. I was thinking the same thing, and it was nice to see Arvo stand up for himself. He didn't want to die like Kenny did, he just wanted to be treated as a human being which, despite my dislike of him, I can completely understand. Especially after the horrible way he was treated.
Yeah, that kind of stuff really annoys me when people talk about certain characters. I hear a lot of people calling Bonnie a junkie lately, which somehow makes her a bad person. No one cared about her drug addiction when she was constantly helping us or when we were playing as her in 400 Days, but the moment she does something serious that people don't agree with, suddenly taking drugs makes you the Devil's incarnate. It's really weird watching this kind of thing.
I find the focus on Kenny's gun ambiguous in that scene. Regardless of whether he'd turn his anger inwards or outwards - Mike was terrified that Kenny was gonna shoot him - he's still taking it out on a girl who doesn't deserve it in any way.
It's not right that people blame Clem for doing what was right. Arvo was wrong for not thinking clearly. Kenny was wrong for thinking she'd killed Sarita. People are wrong for blaming Sarah for murdering Reggie/Carlos/Sarita.
Glad I'm not the only one to notice.
Actually, even back in 400 Days quite a number of people distrusted her and thought Dee - the murderous woman with the hideous face - was right to call her a 'junkie'. Apparently it's Bonnie's fault for seducing Leland, even though it's pretty obvious that she was in an extremely vulnerable position and was grateful to him for saving her.
It's a bit like Sarah, I guess. It's easy to hate on vulnerable people. Never mind that everybody is vulnerable in some way, and they wouldn't see the logic in being preyed on just because of that.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the gun thing. I can't see Kenny physically harming anyone but himself at that point, personally, but the focus on the gun could have meant a number of things.
Kenny talking all that shit to Clem was certainly not right in any way, because she did all she could do to save Sarita. But that's one of Kenny's negative sides. He takes out his anger on others when he's in pain, even when they don't deserve it like Clem and Arvo didn't deserve it. He's been doing it since Long Road Ahead.
As for Sarah, agreed. It wasn't her fault Carlos/Sarita/Reggie died. I don't blame her for that stuff.
I guess I just assumed people would find no fault in Bonnie when we played as her. My mistake, I just assumed because most people assume the protagonist is someone who can do no harm, even when they are clearly doing something wrong.
They hate her because she's a woman who isn't pretty and was 'cheating' on a man. (Although she still looked cute to me....)
Never mind that Vince is literally a murderer, "hilarious" Eddie actually murdered Nate's friend, Russell has the option of staying with a bandit who murders a married couple, and Shel has the option of killing her friend without even talking to her.
If they bring arvo back i am killing him right away, i dont care if he is sorry or not i just dont want what he will bring to the plot.
This is incredibly well written, but I have to ask. At the last part.
Is this American Arvo being to angry/confused to understand what's happening or did Russian Clem take the [Threaten] route?
Both!
I actually wrote this scenario under the assumption that Clem was as supportive as the game allowed her to be. I can actually see some logic in shooting her if she were to call for the one-eyed man, but shooting her after she's dropped her gun is just pure spite. Arvo's reaction shows that he only grasped the severity of his actions once it actually happened - revenge was far less sweet than he'd wanted it to be.
[removed]
I really enjoyed reading this Bokor.
Nice thread.
Much appreciated!
Way to project, sweetie. Go back to your strawman Tumblr, this is a thread for grownups.
Troy was a prick.
Okay I'm sorry but thats just daft. Really christa also if arvo returns him not being determian t is crucial.
Also about wasting characters, the russian group (apart from arvo) were red shirts, more detailed save lots bandits who were meant to show even those groups arent inhuman. How its more inhuman than shooting some of the bandits in season 1 I dont know, we never really even talk to any of them how do we know what their all like, same with carvers camp.
Also, for me I'd rather they all die than our group just being shot down instead, people were moaning in ep 4 that they were just gonna throw away everyone but Ken,Clem,Luke and the baby. And to be honest I'm glad they didnt.
For me the Arvo thing could have worked if they'd played it a slightly different way, say the way he shoots her is more of a panic rather than that. Or better, Seeing as the gunshot barely bothers her arvo smacks her in the head with the gun while shes holding mike and bonnie at gunpoint, he still hits her after everything but its a bit more believable, plus a lee dream anyway
Hey, no matter how 'unrealistic' Telltale deemed Christa's return was, she still had a more likely chance of reuniting with Clem than Kenny ever did.
And yeah, I personally dislike the use of 'disposable red-shirts' because they're a genre cliche that's a bit antithetical to the game's purpose of making you empathize with even morally-questionable people. The Russians SHOULD have been more complex, just like how Carver's community should have had a more neutral portrayal than "evil fortress of bad-guys that you MUST destroy."
Arvo shooting Clem in a panic works if she yells out for Kenny. But shooting her in the first place was a bad idea, yeah. I guess Telltale already used the "whacking Clem with a rifle-butt" trick with Troy. :P
Good post. I actually empathized with Arvo at the start. Didn't take his medicine and sided with the rest of his group about Kenny needing to lay off. I tried talking to him, but the game didn't want to give me a lot of options there. I still stand by my decision of calling Kenny and Jane on account of not wanting to freeze to death.
Nice way to try to get people to see things from Arvo's perspective. Maybe you'll even succeed with some although I think most people that hate Arvo have their heels dug in.
Winston I can agree I didn't care much for, but Troy could have been done in a less stereotypical way. I have a strange interest in sadist characters, (I've spent far too much of my younger years reading about sadistic PD.) and I wish they had found a way to make Troy both sadistic and complex. He'd still be an irredeemable scumbag, but at least one that could generate some interesting discussion. If not that route, then show maybe he's got some standards. Even the look he was giving Carver while he was beating the life out of Kenny, just a small hint of something more than a cliche, but this goes nowhere in the end. Troy is largely insignificant in the long run but he's still one of the characters I wished had more development.
But you're definitely right about Arvo, he was the most sympathetic 'villain' of S2. If the writers actually thought about him for more than a minute they could have continued to build on him instead of going with the shit they did put out. Every single time I was forced to listen to Jane or Kenny drone on about the same trite stuff I already know about them, I was just anticipating when we'd get to talk to Arvo. Mike got to build a relationship with him, (I'm jealous.) but their first interaction that we got to see was Arvo screaming at Mike to leave him alone and by the end of the episode they were leaving the group together. But even though from then on there were just implied interactions, ("Mike and Arvo wouldn't shut up"-Jane) what if Clementine got the same chance as Mike did? Arvo said to Clem, "I wish we could have met differently," there were so many opportunities throughout the episode to talk to him.
At the power-station, Arvo shuns Clementine's attempts to talk to him. What if the next morning after he's had a night to mourn she was able to try again and actually gets somewhere this time? What if Clementine was able to call Arvo out on why he keeps glaring at her? If she got to be the one to help him directly when Kenny beat him instead of Mike? Clem could have explained what happened with his sister and maybe Arvo would come to see her as the kind person like he did before. I wish we were able to connect with Arvo. But the writers didn't try, they just looked for the cheapest, easiest way out with him and that was basically the nail in the coffin for me when forming my final opinions of the season overall, and when he comes back in S3 there's no way in hell they're going to give him a chance. No way in hell. He'll come back and his sole purpose will be to die, just wait.
I suppose the reason why the dialogue lines which implicated Troy as sexually abusing Jane were removed was to make her killing of him more ambiguous. Or it may have been just a cheap penis joke, I dunno. It's 'funny' how Luke is stupidly against Carver's death while still being absolutely fine with Jane murdering one of Carver's thugs in an even more brutal manner.
And yeah, I personally found it very irritating how the devs provided Clem no chance to talk to him, making MIKE more socially adept and empathetic than her. It goes against my best efforts to make her a compassionate person who favors the underdogs.
Telltale'sClementine
I find it bizarre that Mike & Bonnie are simultaneously kind enough to forgive and protect Arvo while also abandoning a baby and a little girl - the latter of whom they had been shown to genuinely care for - to starve/freeze to death. Just another case of forced drama - it's clearly possible for them to stand up to Kenny and save Arvo WITHOUT fucking over the children?
Aside from Arvo altogether, one of the problems I have with the 'betrayal' scene is that Bonnie and Mike are punished for daring to standing up to the unstable and violent Kenny, and they do so in an out-of-character fashion with the supplies and truck theft.
The drama also felt forced, because I suspect that Telltale didn't want to create a scenario where Kenny would actually be condemned by his group for his actions.
Troy getting shot in the dick was totally for dark humor I think. He was a joke of a character anyway so I guess they wanted to make his death the same way.
If given the chance to talk to him, it's practically inevitable that Arvo will at one point ask, "Why'd you murder my sister." Clem will tell him and his reason for hating her would have gone out the window. This laziness was probably what I hated most about the finale.
I honestly can't find a way to rationalize why they did that. I try sometimes but it just doesn't fit, especially when they care for Arvo, but not Clementine. I can sort of understand them taking the car. If they had decided to just stay at the house, the next morning Kenny would likely throw a fit and take both the car and all the stuff or maybe even try to attack them, considering he flew into a rage just because the others had differing ideas than he did. Or from their perspective they'd assume he'd do so. But they left in the middle of the night, they could have taken half of the supplies instead of it all, but they needed to have that 'dramatic betrayal' moment, previous characterization be damned. I also don't like the accusations of Bonnie and Mike being gullible and naive for wanting to leave, as if they were mindless sheep whom supervillain Arvo manipulated into leaving their dear friend Kenny, nevermind that they actually stated they can't stand him and want to get out and implied in past episodes that they are uneasy around Kenny.