Even Lee wouldn't of been able to control Kenny
As mush as I loved seeing Kenny in episode two and knowing he was still alive. I still remember how much of pain he was to Lee in season 1.
I remembered Kennys my way or the highway approach to everything and that just doesn't work surviving in a group. Lee was able to control him to a certain extent. Once I saw Kenny not getting along with Luke the most likable easiest person anyone could get along with. I new Kenny would tare apart the group. The whole time I was tryimg to get Kenny to get along with everyone. But the story wasn't leaning that way. Everyone was calling upon Clem to control Kenny. But Lee could barley keeping him under control how could we expect Clem too! And if Lee was around how many fist fights would they have had. That dream that Clem had with Lee was about making the tough choices. And for the amount good Kenny did and as much as I liked him. He was a ticking time bomb! I think Lee might of ditched Kenny or he would of killed him in a confrontation. Jane wasnt trying to just prove a point it was to put him out of his misery. Unfortunately Clem had to make the hard choice and had to diffuse the bomb.
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Really? Jane was trying to put him out of his misery??? She pretended to KILL A BABY and picked a fight in order to kill him. She was manipulative, deceitful, selfish, had her own agenda, broken herself by the death of her sister (so isn't that Kenny putting Jane out of her misery??) and only stuck with Clementine because she was useful- if she liked Clementine because she was little or nice, then why wouldn't she be nice to Sarah who was both of those things? Every defence of Jane is ridiculous- I originally liked her and (I'll admit) was tempted to shoot Kenny, but at the time my reasoning was that she'd just let a baby die. But afterwards when I found out what she'd really done, that was worse! I used to like her but now I see her for who she really was.
As for Kenny, his only crime was CARING TOO MUCH about the people he loved, unlike Jane who was totally self centred. It was Kenny's care for the people he loved that pushed him over the edge, and unlike what Jane said he wasn't too far gone from being saved. Jane knew he was close to breaking point and CRUELLY tried to push him over the edge and beyond reason by pretending to kill a baby so that she could kill him and still look good in Clem's eyes (because she didn't want to lose a USEFUL companion, useful to her own survival and not Clem's). Her actions are impossible to defend, and anyone who thinks she actually cared has horribly, HORRIBLY misjudged her character.
End of story
brb pretending to kill baby to put you out of your misery
Your entire argument falls apart when you consider the fact that everything Jane is doing there is to protect Clem.
Your argument that it's because Clem is useful is EXTREMELY flawed: Jane is perfectly capable or surviving on her own.
Regardless of whether you think she's succeeding protecting clem or not, she isn't selfish. She even chooses to let the family into Howe's if you let her make the decision. She has compassion.
You do do a good impression of a ranting fan who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is stupid though, so well done on that.
She doesn't pretend to kill a baby, she pretends that the baby actually died, which could easily happen when Clem has him, which causes Kenny to lash out, which is the point.
Jane is making the point that if Clem were to accidentally lose the baby Kenny would break. The life of the baby is the only thing protecting his 'sanity'.
Well if she is good why does she try to break his sanity by pretending the baby is dead? What sort of "good" person purposely tries to make someone insane, on the basis of your logic? Her actions are impossible to defend. Kenny wasn't intending to kill her at all, Jane planned it out. When Kenny kills Jane it's manslaughter- he didn't pre plan it or intend it, as he points out after the fight. Jane planned the whole thing in her head; that's murder.
I'm pretty sure Lee could, I mean Clementine did.
Firstly, try and find flaws in the rest of that argument. I'd be surprised if you can.
And you don't seem to consider why Jane becomes friendly with Clementine in the first place: she's silent and doesn't talk to anyone in the group when she first appears, and when she does the first person she pays attention to is Clementine. From the beginning she recognises that Clementine is the most likely to survive out of that group as she's clever and resourceful. She couldn't care less about anyone else. Clementine doesn't need protecting, that's the only reason Jane is attracted to her.
And as for protecting Clementine, that's proven wrong by my previous argument. If she cares about Clementine so much because she's little or because she's nice, why only Clementine and not Sarah, who is (as I've already said) both of those things? Why does she consider abandoning Rebecca's baby when no one else will (and don't say she wasn't suggesting that, why else would she bring the subject up?)? It's because neither the baby or Sarah are any use to her and do not increase her chances of survival, whilst Clementine is.
And as for not being selfish, that's a very flawed statement. For one, the whole above paragraph disproves that. And she goes dragging her sister unwillingly around, refusing to let her die. That's not sentimental, that's a refusal to let go.
And as for Jane being to survive on her own, she went and got herself caught outside Carver's place, and the only way she escaped was with the help of others. She's smart and a good survivor, yes, but she would've died in Carver's place had it not been for the cabin group and Clem. Getting yourself caught in a place like that doesn't sound like good surviving to me.
You've just picked up on one of my statements. I've just unpicked your entire post. Well done on that.
Please. Lee would have done the same thing.
If someone had just lost/killed a child (eg; Clementine)? I don't think so.
"Anyone who tries to get between me and her, ANYONE, is gonna wind up dead! You hear me?"
And in this case, if Lee and Clem were involved it would be Jane getting in the way
I mean if Lee didnt trust Jane at all, he could have went there, not to the extents of Ken but he would have.
What is your point? That only proves that Lee would've killed Jane like Kenny did, she was the one who got between them.
Oh, okay, I see what you mean now, sorry. Thing is, I know that Kenny is rash and stupid sometimes- I'm not one of those Kenny fans who thinks he's perfect, of course he's not- but Kenny's main flaw (if you can call it that) is that he gets way too angry. Someone hurts him or the people around him and he wants his own back- he's a good guy, but he's been brutalised by the apocalypse and lacks self control. He says it himself. As for Lee, I think your right- he'd go there as well, but he might kill Jane as well- he killed the Stranger when he endangered Clementine, he'd do the same with Jane.
Exactly.
My point is that Kenny isnt that bad for trying to kill Jane given Lee would have done the same.
Oh. Sorry, for some reason I misinterpreted your point and thought you meant the other way round. That's fine then
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but kenny likes clem, he doesnt like jane. He wouldnt kill clem for the baby, he'd prolly just act like he did when sarita died for like a day or two, but he when a stranger he met less than a week ago acts like she caused the death of a baby (accident or not) ofc he's gonna kill them, he loves AJ and sees him as the little hope left in humanity. Id kill jane too
Agreed!
Oh the fallacies!
Jane likes Clem just because, not because she is little and nice, who doesn't love Clem ?
We'll never know.
She just wanted to show Kenny was dangerous. Btw Jane also pointed out that she didn't think Kenny would go that far.
Well that wasn't the way I interpreted the story. I think like attracts like. Clem was curios about Jane first looking over at her and wondering who this bad ass chick is. Jane saw the opportunity to escape with a group and even if she's the loner type. Which is actually a personality trait in some people. Who wouldn't in their right mind cease the opportunity to escape.
Jane was only a loner because she couldn't stand to get close to anyone only to lose them. She pushed people away to protect herself from getting hurt. That whole story about her sister was that she was forcing her against her will to live. But in the end she had to let her go. Which is a very unselfish act. How many people would let their sister die because that's what they wanted. That would be tough for me to do! It was kind of the same scenario Clem was going through with Sarah. Also another example of Jane using pushing away people to protect her feelings was when Clem and her are talking by the fireplace and she got upset that luke died. The best way for her to keep her sanity was to not get to close to people.
Jane also was telling Clem to be careful with this group they're following apart. She said I've seen it before. Jane stayed because she wasn't going to let the craziness of the group end up costing Clem's life. Which it almost did when Arvo shot her. Why was the group following apart? Well if you go back through the story from the very beginning Kenny had to be defended by Clem. She had to go between them. But even Sarita had some issues with Kenny. Remember how she questioned Clem about him. But Kenny was the one that everyone had a problem with. The whole group had a problem with Kenny. Pretty much everyone in the group told Clem that you have to pull Kenny out of this. Kennys viotile state was causing the group to fall apart. Leaving it in the hands of a little girl! That's position Kenny was putting Clem in!
When Kenny started to push around Arvo and keep in mind this a disabled man who most likely was hanging with his group to survive. He just lost his sister and all Kenny can do was torment him. Kenny couldn't relate to his loss. He also was losing his ability to forgive. So Kenny pushed Arvo so much to the point that it led to Bonnie, mike and Arvo trying to escape and Arvo shooting Clem. The group falling apart. See Kenny was putting Clem in danger with his antics and all she's been doing the whole time is try to defend him. The only problem is Kenny didn't care enough about Clem and who she cared about to want to try to get along with pretty easy going people. I mean who couldn't getting along with Luke, mike and Bonnie? Oh wait Kenny couldn't. So if Clem's sticks to Kenny out of loyalty. She would have to live a life of walking on egg shells around him and defending his behavior to others. Also remember Kennys killing carver as cool as it was. It was disturbing to see Kenny go that far. Also kenny was also going to murder a disabled man until the group stopped him.
Jane hiding the baby was to protect Clem from the monster who was in front of her and Clem couldn't see it because of her loyalty to Kenny. See Clem needed protection from her good nature towards seeing the best in people. Her loyalty to Kenny was actually her weakness. See Kenny was on the brink of loosing it if someone else close to him or cared about died. But not for nothing Kenny in his state of mind would be the last person I would want my kid to be around. And Jane like any caring mother would do. Would do whatever it takes to get her away from a man that was unstable. Now she didn't want to kill Kenny. They clearly show her put the knife back. Kenny sees that and attacks Jane. Not what any reasonable thinking person would do to someone if they did something by accident. Jane exposed Kenny for the person who he was now. Not the person he was in season 1 that we all loved(but was still a very flawed character that caused Lee alot of problems). What would of happened if Jane left them and Clem messed up with the baby. You saw The way Kenny acted toward Clem after Sarita died. Lucky for Clem she had people around her. What if their wasn't people around the next time Clem makes a mistake or just makes a choice that Kenny doesn't approve of? I'm sorry Jane did what every good parent would do, get her away from the man who's on the brink of insanity to point of committing murder. Which he has done and wanted to do to Arvo and Jane before being stopped.
But Jane ultimately showed she cares for others and wanted to take on the tough task of raising a child and Clem. Which is very unselfish task. She didn't walk away. Taking on this burden doesn't increase her chance of survival. It might actually cost her life.
Also your disagreeing with Kenny if you think it wasn't his time to go. When Clems shoots him. He tells her she made the right choice. He wasn't the same man he used to be. If you watch him die. He seemed at peace with it.
She didn't pretend to kill the baby. It was made to look like an accident. But excuse me and let me drop all reasonable thought and kill you because the baby died by accident.
Lee would just knock some sense into him.
Lee was able to keep him stable and some what in control because he was the Alfa male of the group. But if Lee dealt with season 2 Kenny. lee would of had several fist fights with Kenny that might of ended in kennys death!
Yeah! But Lee wasn't around to knock sense into him. The fact is nobody was able to. Which put Clem in a difficult situation.
Lee wouldn't have killed Jane! Jane was protecting Clem for her blind loyalty to Kenny. You think Lee would of approved of kennys actions. Jane was concerned about Clem's safety around an unstable group led by an unstable man. Lee would of came to blows with Kenny several times because he would want Clem thinking this isnt the way to handle things. Lee wouldn't want to think kennys actions were right and that would lead to Lee more likely to kill Kenny then Jane. Lee was more concerned about danger getting in between them not people that were looking out for her best interests. And Kenny was the danger that was costing Clems losing the group and almost get herself killed.
Clearly the walkers weren't attacking in the Snow storm. When Clem is lost in the snow the only way she can be attacked by the walkers if you walk into them
Lee is the player, it would all depend on if YOUR Lee approved of his actions or not. I love lee, but 90% of his personality is based off the players personality.
Both Kenny and Jane had their pros and cons. Jane needed companionship. Jane saw that her and Clem would make a good team- the team that her sister opted out of. Jane knew that clem might not leave with her and she didn't want to travel with Kenny anymore. Jane knew she couldn't just kill Kenny so she provoked an attack that she could justify with self defense. Both Kenny and Jane were ruthless, but Kenny is going to be up front about the things he doesn't like. It was so much easier to justify leaving Lily behind in light of similar circumstances. But Jane wanted a reason to get Kenny out of the picture and she exploited the intuition that Kenny would blow up. He didn't, however, attack Clementine.
What the fuck?? Seriously. She never said she killed the baby. Why the fuck would she kill a baby!? It was the motherfucking psycho Kenny who came up with the idea that Jane is slaughtering babies FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Kenny NEEDED to be put out of his fucking misery, he was out of control and didn't listen to anyone, but his crazy old farted mind. So, good-effin' riddance.
Oh of course she didn't. Of course she didn't realise that by losing one of the only things he had left to care about in the world he'd go nuts. She even said to Clem before the fight to stay out of it. She knew exactly what she was doing.
Well okay then, I'll admit maybe he did jump to a conclusion, but it doesn't real matter does it? Kill the baby, lose the baby, it doesn't matter. It's still dead. Jane knew that he loved the baby and that losing him would tip him over the edge. And yes Kenny got out of control but for a start if you thought someone had killed/lost someone you loved wouldn't you just as mad? His only crime was being too human and letting his emotions and care get the better of him. Anyone who wouldn't react in a similar way to someone else effectively killing someone you loved is just psychopathic.