Does anyone else think Robb Stark was an idiot?
He.was a horrible leader who risked the life of him and others because he was stupid enough to piss most of the North off and even Joffrey, his death was inevitable no matter what
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I thought he was a great leader, he just made the horrible decision of marrying Talisa.
The kid was a target for the Baratheons. He let his mother free Jaime even though Lannisters would clearly want vengeance. He was an alright general but he made way too many fuck ups to escape with his life
Nope, it was clearly established that his mother went behind his back to pull that stunt off.
Nope, just one. Well, maybe two, the other one being not taking caution with Roose Bolton.
You're forgetting that instead of marrying and gaining influence and helping the Starks he married a pretty girl
That's what I implied as the first reason. And (taking the books and not the show as the example, since I'm not acquainted a lot with the latter), he did this because of his and the girl's honor. He couldn't just fuck her and then tell her to leave because he was way too honorable to do that. He fucked up, sure, but it wasn't done on an arbitrary whim. Well, kind of wasn't.
Was Robb a brilliant or perfect general? No, but he was a very capable commander that achieved some great victories. In other areas, he was also considerably capable (no genius, but very far from an idiot).
He did not allowed his mother to release Jaime (as you are saying). He wasn’t in war with any true Baratheon (and many would believe that he would probably bend the knee to Renly if he was the older brother).
Even not keeping an eye at Roose Bolton wasn’t a real mistake. Bolton was the most capable man to lead the troops against Tywin and that’s the reason why they got separated.
“he was stupid enough to piss most of the North off and even Joffrey”
When did Robb piss most of the North? And also, are you implying that Robb caused the war with the IT? Really? Not even in the TV series these commentaries make sense.
He should have married the frey girl. The freys have cloth coifs, what else could you want from a marriage?
Much like his father before him, he was an excellent military commander without much of a mind for politics.
He did kill lord karstark before finishing the war.
Fuckin Freys.
Yes, he did, but your point is…?
PS: Just to make a comment before you answer, neither was this action wrong (even if we can probably agree that it was not the best solution to the problem) nor did it piss of the North.
He did not piss off the entire north, tho he had 18 000 men and lost haft of it when killing lord Karstark, that was definetly a mistake of his.
He basicly put justice ahead of victory.
As I said, we would most probably agree that this was not the best course of action (even if it could be called the just and honorable thing to do).
But I must point out that the Karstarks were not half of his troops. I’m not sure about the numbers now (long time since I read it), but I think they were not even 3k.
Its fookin Freys
He was a great leader, he was pretty damn inspiring and a great commander. He just made one (very) bad decision, marrying Talisa. And how did he piss off most of the North exactly? The only ones he directly pissed off was the Karstark's, but in the end I find it hard to blame him for that. And of course he pissed off Joffrey, he declared war on him (for a good reason I might add.)
So, no, I don't think he was.
He was a great leader and a brilliant general but he was pathetic at making and keeping alliances. He won every battle on the battlefield but lost the war in a bedchamber.
He was a great leader, but a young boy with a hard weiner. Kings back then banged hundred of whores, just look at Robert Baratheon, but did he go around breaking vows? Would he promise to marry Cersei then go marry some random girl? No. Robb lost his honor when he married Talisa. Just like Karlstark said, you lost the war when you married her. If he had married a Frey girl, things could have worked out. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions.
First of all, the only ones he pissed off were the Karstarks, Freys, and Roose Bolton, not the whole North. And he wasn't stupid for getting Joffrey pissed, Robb had every right to get mad at him.
He was a great leader who made one fatal mistake, and that was breaking his promise to the Freys.
People over-estimate the impact of Robb breaking his oath to Walder Frey. I'd actually say it was one of the few unintentionally smart things Robb did.
Robb was a dead man the minute he was forced to retreat North to deal with Iron Born. I think had Robb not broken the Oath, then Walder would have forced him to get married and consummate the marriage before killing him. That way, he not only gets on the Iron Thrones good side but he'd also have the best claim to Winterfell in the Frey Girls unborn child.
I'd say sending Theon to broker an alliance to the Iron Islands and killing lord Karstark were much worse decisions in the grand scheme of things
Yeah, the damage of sending Theon was more highlighted in the books. Theon is sent to Iron Islands which leads to the Iron Born attacking the North since he was no longer a hostage (though they might have attacked regardless). Theon wants to prove himself, so he attacks Winterfell, and fakes Bran and Rickon's death because he loses them. In their grief, Catelyn releases Jaimie in hopes to get her girls back and Robb sleeps with Jeyne Westerling (the book counterpart of Talisa) and marries her to protect her honor.
Well,like father,like son.
Like others have said, he a great military commander but like his father was too honorable. However, I hate when people say the Red Wedding was his own fault for marrying Talisa/Jeyne. Yes he made a mistake and broke his vow to marry the Frey girl, but Walder Frey also broke an oath when he did not support Robb from the beginning since House Frey were sworn bannermen to House Tully. He also violated guest right, the most sacred of all.
Robb made some bad decisions no doubt but he never had the power to win the war by himself, he never could lay siege to Castely Rock or King's Landing(even in the game they say you march the next day to Castely Rock as I recall), he simply never had the manpower and equipment and he could only rely on Stannis winning the city and then brokering some sort of peace with him.
In the show they do terrible job depicting the war and simply doesn't do him justice in my opinion. They actually lead us to belive he could have won if he had kept his oath to Walder Frey whille in the book the southern campaign was clearly lost and all he could do was march back North to fight the Ironborn.
About his breaking his vows, that was awful thing for a king to do but you forget he's just a boy, only 16, one weak moment and it was done for him, afterwards all he could do was keep Jeyne's honor above his and marry her(though I guess he loved her becasue he says something like "I won her castle and she won my heart") even though he knew how it would fuck things up for him.
He actually says to his mother after his return to Riverrun: “I’ve made a botch of everything but the battles, haven’t I?" which makes you feel sympathy towards him, he is a tragice hero that was doomed the moment he wore his crown as he never had the power to win the North freedom, but still he is one of my top favourite characters from the books and I think best in the show for me.
All Starks have the stupid gene. I like them, but they're dumb.
Ned was the worst politician ever and chose honor over clever political maneuvering.
Robb chose the pretty girl over a vow to a dangerous man and killed Karstark which cost him half his army.
Sansa is Sansa.
Arya could have had any 3 people killed. She could have easily gotten Tywin, The Mountain, and Joffrey killed but she instead chose two people who didn't matter in the slightest.
Bran climbed even though he was told plenty of times not to.
Rickon is like 5.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Robb did anything to piss off the Boltons. In my opinion Roose Bolton saw an opportunity to gain power and he took it.
Rob was not an idiot. He had a military genius and unlike any other characters in the series. He did everything by the rules, its not his fault that everyone else in westeros are scumbags that don't believe in honer.
You may think why fight with honer if it gets you killed but a lot of readers miss the bigger picture. Without the belief of honer the realm of westeros is starting to go to shit. "Its not safe to be a king anymore" Constantly shifting rule causes chaos. Without proper rule in the north you have bandits everywhere and psychos like Ramsey snow in rule. Mad men fight for the iron throne distracted from the bigger problems like White walkers and no one paying tribute to dying gods that were protecting everyone.
He trusted that others would not be scumbags to protect the bigger picture. Honer brings order.
Its not about whether it was right its if it was smart and it still wasn't no matter what Robb fanboys try to substitute him being right for declaring war on Joffrey with him putting himself and everyone else at risk. The Boltons, Freys, Karstarks are not people you want against you. This wasn't surprising in the least
He still executed the lord of a house that gave him 18,000 men despite everyone on his council telling him not to.
18.000 soldier is the number of Robb's entire army, not the amount of soldiers from the Karstarks.
He actually brought 2,000 men with him and many were already killed by the time they left Robb (his enire host was 20,000)
Thats the thing people warned him to do things in which he still did anyway. He just ignored the obvious right things to do
Right, got my numbers mixed up. But the Karstarks were a pretty big portion of his army if I remember correctly.
Yes Robb was dumb, not as dumb as Ned or Catleyn and seeing as he's there child he actually made fewer mistakes than expected
I feel like he was a good strategist and a great leader with a lot of honor, but he was thinking with his dick instead of is brain and paid the price.
Best argument ever
But you defend Ramsay Snow? :P
Robb was a good leader, yet bound by his family's honor, which gets you killed in 'Game of Thrones'. Had Sansa said what she was really thinking, her head would have been on a spike an hour later. Same goes for everyone else in King's Landing.
I know he broke his oath (and lost some of his honor) when marrying Talisa, and that was his one big mistake. You don't cross Walder Frey. Their words are unknown, but I bet they are either 'Do Not Cross Us' or 'We Take Our Toll'.
His other mistake was killing Karstark. Yes, the man was a bloody idiot who killed their wards, but he still held half of Robb's army.
That being said, Robb was still a million times better than Ramsay Snow :P
Rickard Karstark gave Robb his 2000 men who the majority of were slain for the cause. After the most of Karstark's men were slain he had nothing to offer Rob Stark but insults and killing off 2 of Rob's Bargaining chips Martyn Lannister and Willem Lannister. Rickard basically became a hazard rather than an aid and showed Rob dishonor and that he really didn't give a fuck what about happened next Claiming Rob had already lost.
Rickard Karstark knew the risk of fighting for the king of the north and swore honer to him. Sure Letting Jamie Lannister the man who killed Rickard's son go was pretty dumb but that was Catelyn Stark, even so being a dishonorable hazard with nothing to offer it was better to kill Rickard Karstark and set the example. Its not like Karstark was useful for anything else. He could of also been a threat with the possible terms of peace with the Lannisters .
He was a great general. He was never defeated in battle and was only killed due to betrayal. His honor and lack of foresight in politic cost him and his army the war. But no one can say that he is a coward. He died for his cause and died as a martyr thus persevering the Stark's reputation as a beloved house in the memory of their loyal subjects.
I said he was a good general but a horrible leader. He didn't think things through some of the things he did were very idiotic and dim witted
Not about whats right its about whats smart. Robb practically walked his men into genocide numerous times