Robb had no real chance to win that war. His only chance was with Baratheon victory in the south. And one reason for the war to be taking longer than necessary to end, was that Tywin could not move his army decisively against Robb without overexpose the capital. He was effectively fighting on three fronts with one army.
Robb wasnt stupid just inexperienced. In the books he is what 15-16? And he would've won the war if Tywin lannister wasn't such an evil scheming puss who wouldn't meet him in battle.
Another proof of his bad strategy is that he seems to be a "rebel without a cause". In the Art of War, Sun Tzu said a winner wins first and then goes to war. A loser goes to war and then seeks to win. What that means is that the leader must have a clear, achievable objective in mind before committing troops. Without a clear objective, the war is lost from the get-go. Just look at our two disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rob Stark has never really clearly defined his political objectives. At first his goal was to overthrow the usurper in King's Landing. And then he declared independence, thus making an attack on King's Landing irrelevant. And then he decided to attack Casterly Rock simply because he did not want to go home empty-handed, when he should have cut his losses after he became king and went home. The entire campaign just screamed debacle.
And yes, I realize his sisters were held hostage in King's Landing, but even he admitted to his mother that his men would never fight for 2 girls. In other words, that was never a viable political objective.
Robb had no real chance to win that war. His only chance was with Baratheon victory in the south. And one reason for the war to be taking lo… morenger than necessary to end, was that Tywin could not move his army decisively against Robb without overexpose the capital. He was effectively fighting on three fronts with one army.
Oh I don't deny that it was a cunning tactical maneuverer on Tywin's part. However the fact that it reached that stage for Tywin, speaks volumes about Robb's capability.
You make a good point. I think it would have been the wisest course for Robb to return home in order to build his power base. And should the Lannisters attack the North, they will be the one who get the biggest losses due to having to feed their armies. Robb could have easily held off the Lannister on Moat Cailin and deal with the Ironborn should they attack. It will become too costly for the Lannisters to keep their campaign on the North for long and the Ironborns would have never been successful fighting a well-defended North.
Another proof of his bad strategy is that he seems to be a "rebel without a cause". In the Art of War, Sun Tzu said a winner wins first and… more then goes to war. A loser goes to war and then seeks to win. What that means is that the leader must have a clear, achievable objective in mind before committing troops. Without a clear objective, the war is lost from the get-go. Just look at our two disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rob Stark has never really clearly defined his political objectives. At first his goal was to overthrow the usurper in King's Landing. And then he declared independence, thus making an attack on King's Landing irrelevant. And then he decided to attack Casterly Rock simply because he did not want to go home empty-handed, when he should have cut his losses after he became king and went home. The entire campaign just screamed debacle.
And yes, I realize his sisters were held hostage in King's Landing, but e… [view original content]
I have never understood why Tywin underestimated the North, it´s true that Rob was green as grass but he had many lords that where veterans and capable commanders and he got even more of them in the riverlands like the blackfish and Jason Mallister.So even if Rob had not been as good as he was it would still have taken some effort to defeat them.
Oh I don't deny that it was a cunning tactical maneuverer on Tywin's part. However the fact that it reached that stage for Tywin, speaks volumes about Robb's capability.
I have never understood why Tywin underestimated the North, it´s true that Rob was green as grass but he had many lords that where veterans … moreand capable commanders and he got even more of them in the riverlands like the blackfish and Jason Mallister.So even if Rob had not been as good as he was it would still have taken some effort to defeat them.
Robb never wanted or even could take Castely Rock so I don't understand your point there..His Westerlands campaign(after Oxcross) was just a a brilliant ploy to lure Tywin's host west and let Stannis take KL and he would have succeded if Edmure wouldn't had screwed it up.
Another proof of his bad strategy is that he seems to be a "rebel without a cause". In the Art of War, Sun Tzu said a winner wins first and… more then goes to war. A loser goes to war and then seeks to win. What that means is that the leader must have a clear, achievable objective in mind before committing troops. Without a clear objective, the war is lost from the get-go. Just look at our two disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rob Stark has never really clearly defined his political objectives. At first his goal was to overthrow the usurper in King's Landing. And then he declared independence, thus making an attack on King's Landing irrelevant. And then he decided to attack Casterly Rock simply because he did not want to go home empty-handed, when he should have cut his losses after he became king and went home. The entire campaign just screamed debacle.
And yes, I realize his sisters were held hostage in King's Landing, but e… [view original content]
I think we are discussing what happened in the Tv-show.
I personally liked his ploy to lure Tywin to the west in the books. It is unfortunate that in the show they changed it to luring the Mountain instead...
Robb never wanted or even could take Castely Rock so I don't understand your point there..His Westerlands campaign(after Oxcross) was just a… more a brilliant ploy to lure Tywin's host west and let Stannis take KL and he would have succeded if Edmure wouldn't had screwed it up.
In hindsight I think the show did horrible job with the war. I only read the books after the Red Wedding because I just had to see how it's like on paper but back when all I knew was based on the show, honestly, I didn't understand anything, who are the River lords? What is Oxcross?where is The Crag on amap again?.. I mean they didn't even do a scene where some guy explaining us what's happening on a map or something(not to mention they did the Robb going to Harrenhal scene which didn't make any sense), they just didn't do justice to GRRM's genius mind, planning the entire thing since the first book.
I think we are discussing what happened in the Tv-show.
I personally liked his ploy to lure Tywin to the west in the books. It is unfortunate that in the show they changed it to luring the Mountain instead...
Yeah, part pf me wished that they done things differently. But it is difficult to get everything you want on a 10 episode season. Sometimes you have to make changes and compromises in order to make the show.
In hindsight I think the show did horrible job with the war. I only read the books after the Red Wedding because I just had to see how it's … morelike on paper but back when all I knew was based on the show, honestly, I didn't understand anything, who are the River lords? What is Oxcross?where is The Crag on amap again?.. I mean they didn't even do a scene where some guy explaining us what's happening on a map or something(not to mention they did the Robb going to Harrenhal scene which didn't make any sense), they just didn't do justice to GRRM's genius mind, planning the entire thing since the first book.
Yes this is certainly true, but I think it would've been a nice touch if there could've been some discussion of tactics on both sides. This would've given the audience who hadn't read the books an insight into just what was going on out on the battle field.
Yeah, part pf me wished that they done things differently. But it is difficult to get everything you want on a 10 episode season. Sometimes you have to make changes and compromises in order to make the show.
Calling him a horrible leader is kinda dumb, even if you haven't read the books, you do realise he has won every battle out there, the men adored him, he wasnt afraid to take risk, legends of him riding his direwolf made him feared, he would have made a great king.
But yes, he did make a fatal mistake. Love puts blinders on unfortunately.
True. We didn't really know how the Northern army was progressing. Were they in the Westerlands, were they defending the Riverlands? Was Robb making any real progress with his campaign?
Yes this is certainly true, but I think it would've been a nice touch if there could've been some discussion of tactics on both sides. This … morewould've given the audience who hadn't read the books an insight into just what was going on out on the battle field.
He fucked up by breaking the promises he made with the Freys, otherwise he had a fighting chance at winning since he was unmatched in battle. The marriage lost him the war and his life.
I think to say he was stupid it pretty cruel. Not everyone can be the perfect leader at fifty, let alone fifteen. Yes, he made mistakes and he paid for them in a manner that I think, not even the worst of people should have to suffer. But if you're one of those people who likes to blame a teenager for a fight started by grown men, then I guess he would be considered 'stupid' by those standards.
What's meant is he lost half of HIS army. So, his personal army. Not the actual entire northern force that is spread out across the Riverlands and Westerlands. Or so I assume that is what they meant in the show.
For example, at that point the whole northern army is about 12,000 ish strong.
5,000 of which are with Robb himself. And half of that, 2,500 are the Karstark troops. Hence, how they explain it.
Well, my comments are only based on the TV series. And in the TV show they made a bunch of references about how he lost half his army by executing Karstock.
And I refuse to read the book because I do not want to spoil it, Lol.
Well, he did make the stupidest decision he could have... and probably shouldn't have been fighting a war while thinking with the head in his pants... But he wasn't a total idiot, just a bad decision maker.
You see... There's this thing called privilege. Robb was born to it, and was raised well into adulthood in it. However, with this privilege comes a strict set of rules. You become a pawn in the "Game of Thrones" if you're lucky/unlucky enough to be born to privilege. This law governs all houses Lannister and Stark alike.
He decided he didn't want to be a pawn(not his decision) when he married Talisa, and not one of Walder's daughers as he had sworn. This is where he is an idiot. He knows VERY WELL (he was raised to adulthood knowing this) that oaths are meant to be KEPT and that horrible things come to people who break them (how many behadings of deserters of the night's watch had he had to watch growing up with Ned Stark as a father?)
Still he decided to break the one oath that he knew very well would hold sway in the entier outcome of the war and you can see it in his face as he makes the decision... it's hidden behind the lust.
He wasn't expecting Walder to make his move at the wedding, BUT he did know Walder is a slimy git, and in any reality never assume anything... so all in all I think that he made the stupidest decision he could have made based on what he'd been taught his whole life. (I mean, even his mother and father were married but not in "love"... WHERE THE HELL does he get this idea of marrying someone you love despite your oath?????)
Robb dishonored his father by accepting the King of the North deal. His dad held a grudge against Jamie Lannister not because he killed the king but because he dared to sit on the iron throne before Robert B arrived to claim it. Ned was all about honor loyalty and the right thing.....although I don't know how aiding the overthrow of the mad king figures into that......still he would not have approved. Anyway what Robb Stark did was treason. Stanis would be the rightful king ....the king that Ned would have supported. When Robb Stark accepted the mantle of King of the North the incest had not even come out, so even if he hated Geoffry, by all appearances Geoff was the rightful king. The story of the incest came out after Ned was executed and after Robb became King, as far as Geoff and everyone else knew...including Robb Stark .... Ned was indeed a traitor and if it were Ned he would have used ice to take off the traitors head. Only people who knew that Geoff wad not a Stag was Sercy Jamie Varys and Stanis. The Karstark debacle was just hypocrisy. After his mother had just committed treason by letting Jamie go it was a bit hypocritical to killKarstark for killing Lannisters. Also I never could figure out what the heck the King of the NORTH was doing fighting in the River lands. And last yes marrying that chick in the show showed no honor. Him marrying Jane in the book was honorable. He was wounded and high on milk of the poppy after a battle. He was convalescing in her castle and while taking care of him, she ended up in his bed. In order to save her honor he married her.
I think the bigger idiot Starks were Catlyn and Sansa. Cat for kidnapping TL. Cat for not taking her arse back to winterfell. Sansa for snitching to Sercy that they were leaving Kings Landing. Had they not done those things there would have been no murder of Neds men in the streets. He would not have been injured and would have had to go hunting with the King, which means the king probably wouldn't have died. No war. Even after all that, if Sansa had kept her mouth shut they would have gotten away long before any of that popped off. And those who reference the book to support Rob being a great leader, try to remember that they loved Rob because he was Neds son not because he was great. A guy lost his hand and Robb earned his respect that was it. Yes he was only 15 but he would not take advice and gave his mother his ear more than any other. Because she overheard Ned planning battles in the past that makes her an expert? He insulted his men by taking his mommies counsel over his men's. He was undefeated in battle but the answer to that claim was that his battles were not significant. They gained him nothing. Every holding he won, he again lost. He would have lost against Stannis and Rindley. And the Tyrrels had not really joined the fight. He only had one major victory. That was against Jamie, but other than a few Lannisters he gained nothing. Again why was the king of the north not defending the North. He clearly was not fighting his way to Kings Landing to avenge his father or save his sisters. Ned told Robb before journeying south to become the Hand that there must always be a Stark at Winterfell. It was the whole reason he was left behind... His father did not mean a 8 year old boy unable to walk. It seems the only teachings of his father that he took to heart was if you are going to execute someone, do it with your own hands, and if you deflower a woman that is not your wife make everyone else suffer for your choices. Sorry for the typos.
Robb Stark is the greatest idiot in Westeros, and potentialy Esos as well.
He had no clear plan for winning the war
He never shared the battle plans with his comanders. When he wanted to trap Lannister army West, to let Stannis take Kings Landing, did he tell his comanders what he is going to do, so they follow the plan? Nope. He didnt. And plan failed because of that
He also got outsmarted by Tywin. Jayne was following Tywins orders when seducing Robb.
And anyone who doesnt realise that, needs to re-read the books. Look at what happened to Westerlings after the war.
Tywin, the most ruthless man to rule the Westerlands, not only forgives the Westerlings, but also rewards them, even though they sided with his enemy openly.
He sided with his mommy against his bannermen time and time again. Catlin releases the most valued hostage, that could have been used to broker a peace => gets sent to the room
Karstarks kill some irrelevant squires out of rage => killed.
And not only did he kill the Karstark leaders, but also sent his men to chase after Karstark soldiers and kill them!!
He wastes his only leverage over the Iron isles and leaves himself open to attack, leaving the North completely undefended as a side bonus.
He picks allies based on wether or not he likes them, rather than wether they are useful.
He could have sided with Stannis, thus allowing them to gather forces and go for Kings landing, forcing a pitch battle between undefeated Robb and glorious Stannis on one side, and Tywin on the other.
TLDR: The biggest idiot and moron of westeros = Robb Stark
Quite ridiculous how many people in here thinks he was a complete idiot. It's the same people who believe that Tywin Lannister was a genius which he really was not. Tywin lost all the battles against Robb Stark and got completly outmanouvered leading to his son getting capture and in the meanwhile his idiot kid and grandchild chopped off Ned Starks head without Tywin making sure to stop it. He's pretending to be the richest man in Westeros when he in fact is the man with the biggest debts in the entire kingdoms. His knowledge in economy is completly YOLO. In any army that suffers defeat the morale will go very low, so how not more of the westerland lords plotted behind Tywin's back is a miracle and quite unrealistic considering that it was what struck the Northern Army.. Not to mention that he ordered summarize executions of his own innocent soldiers. He also recruited men forcefully.
Not to mention the biggest Tywin mistakes ever: He didn't realise the potential of his own dwarf son, who despite his short length actually had an intellect more than can be said about his other two idiot children. He doesn't even realise that Cersei's children in fact are Jaime's. With the kind of logic some people use on here a lot of characters would be morons. No, I don't think particulary that he was a major idiot. Sure he made some big fuckups but so did Tywin.
Not to mention the forces of the riverlords that joined him after he defeated Jaime Lannister. Which was a brilliant manouver. I bet he must have had closer to 30-40k after that. Karstarks can't have been that many.
As I said, we would most probably agree that this was not the best course of action (even if it could be called the just and honorable thing… more to do).
But I must point out that the Karstarks were not half of his troops. I’m not sure about the numbers now (long time since I read it), but I think they were not even 3k.
doesn't even realise that Cersei's children in fact are Jaime's
I'm certain he does. Him being a product of incestuous sexual activity he's the opposite of what most would expect. I think he knew but denied rumors because it would weaken the Lannisters' political standing and allow barbarians lime Stannis to be known as king. And in my mind anyway Tywin did defeat Robb pretty swiftly. He planned the Red Wedding which had him as well as his mother be killed leaving several houses aligned with them (Karstarks, Forresters etc.) be at the mercy of the Boltons.
Quite ridiculous how many people in here thinks he was a complete idiot. It's the same people who believe that Tywin Lannister was a genius … morewhich he really was not. Tywin lost all the battles against Robb Stark and got completly outmanouvered leading to his son getting capture and in the meanwhile his idiot kid and grandchild chopped off Ned Starks head without Tywin making sure to stop it. He's pretending to be the richest man in Westeros when he in fact is the man with the biggest debts in the entire kingdoms. His knowledge in economy is completly YOLO. In any army that suffers defeat the morale will go very low, so how not more of the westerland lords plotted behind Tywin's back is a miracle and quite unrealistic considering that it was what struck the Northern Army.. Not to mention that he ordered summarize executions of his own innocent soldiers. He also recruited men forcefully.
Not to mention the biggest Tywin mistakes ever: He didn… [view original content]
Robb is/was one of my favourite characters because he is so 'human'. He was a great commander, but, a horrible politician. He made many mistakes, but who doesn't? We all make mistakes and we all pay for those mistakes. He followed his heart and married Talisa. Looking back; he shouldn't of done that. He executed Rickard Karstark. Looking back; he should of listened to Catelyn, and kept him hostage so he wouldn't lose the entire Karstark army.
Sure, he made many mistakes. But, the people calling him "a huge idiot" are wrong. He wasn't. He just made some mistakes, like any other fuckin' human being on the planet. I won't lie, I listen to my heart a lot more then my head. So, if I was in Robb's position I would've made mistakes just like him. I'm pretty sure A LOT of us would've made mistakes if we were in Robb's boots.
But- his bad decisions aside; Robb would've made a great leader if he had of won the war. You can't deny that.
He's gone. And the reason he is gone is because of his decisions, but, I still love him as a character. He wasn't an idiot, he was a human being. He was a good, (mostly) honorable, compassionate young man. Oh, and let us not forget that he was indeed a YOUNG man. 17-18 at the most when the show starts. So, you could blame his mistakes on him being too youthful and not knowing what the actual world was like.
Anyway...
I'm rooting of Stannis Baratheon right now, but, if a surviving Stark takes the mantle of 'King/Queen In The North'- I will be behind them 100%.
Robb is one of my favourite characters as well I agree that he made mistakes but I don't think executing Lord Karstark was one of them sure it would've benefited him more to keep him alive but he murdered two boys because they had the name Lannister. If Robb let Lord Karstark get away with that then he would've been no better than Tywin Lannister.
I actually want Rickon to become the King in the North.
"The Northeners will never forget" -Tyrion Lannister
Robb is/was one of my favourite characters because he is so 'human'. He was a great commander, but, a horrible politician. He made many mist… moreakes, but who doesn't? We all make mistakes and we all pay for those mistakes. He followed his heart and married Talisa. Looking back; he shouldn't of done that. He executed Rickard Karstark. Looking back; he should of listened to Catelyn, and kept him hostage so he wouldn't lose the entire Karstark army.
Sure, he made many mistakes. But, the people calling him "a huge idiot" are wrong. He wasn't. He just made some mistakes, like any other fuckin' human being on the planet. I won't lie, I listen to my heart a lot more then my head. So, if I was in Robb's position I would've made mistakes just like him. I'm pretty sure A LOT of us would've made mistakes if we were in Robb's boots.
But- his bad decisions aside; Robb would've made a great leader if he had of won the war. You can't deny that.
He's gone. … [view original content]
When he is confronted about it by Cersei he is denying it completly, S04.E10 in the tv-series.. Can't recall reading about the scene in the books but still.. So with your logic Stannis is a barbaric but the master brain behind the red wedding is not? 'Tywin defeated Robb pretty swiftly.'. He was murdered along with several other northern lords after having received guest rights. It is such a disgusting crime that even people siding with the Lannisters was disgusted. The Lannisters has lost half of their army or more in the war against the Starks and Stannis and are in heavy debt already to the iron bank. The entire westeros despise them for various reasons. They now have to rely on the Tyrells to pay their debts. That swift victory might have wiped out Tywin Lannisters dear family from history because they are certainly in a position where their house survival is hanging on a thin thread.
doesn't even realise that Cersei's children in fact are Jaime's
I'm certain he does. Him being a product of incestuous sexual activi… morety he's the opposite of what most would expect. I think he knew but denied rumors because it would weaken the Lannisters' political standing and allow barbarians lime Stannis to be known as king. And in my mind anyway Tywin did defeat Robb pretty swiftly. He planned the Red Wedding which had him as well as his mother be killed leaving several houses aligned with them (Karstarks, Forresters etc.) be at the mercy of the Boltons.
Robb Stark is the greatest idiot in Westeros, and potentialy Esos as well.
He had no clear plan for winning the war
He never shared the … morebattle plans with his comanders. When he wanted to trap Lannister army West, to let Stannis take Kings Landing, did he tell his comanders what he is going to do, so they follow the plan? Nope. He didnt. And plan failed because of that
He also got outsmarted by Tywin. Jayne was following Tywins orders when seducing Robb.
And anyone who doesnt realise that, needs to re-read the books. Look at what happened to Westerlings after the war.
Tywin, the most ruthless man to rule the Westerlands, not only forgives the Westerlings, but also rewards them, even though they sided with his enemy openly.
He sided with his mommy against his bannermen time and time again. Catlin releases the most valued hostage, that could have been used to broker a peace => gets sent to the room
Karstarks kill some irrelevant… [view original content]
Why do people call cat dumb? She told Robb to not trust Theon, to not break his vow and told Bran to not climb. She only released Jaime because she had lost her husband thought she lost her 2 sons and didnt want her daughters abused.
Robb Stark is the greatest idiot in Westeros, and potentialy Esos as well.
He had no clear plan for winning the war
He never shared the … morebattle plans with his comanders. When he wanted to trap Lannister army West, to let Stannis take Kings Landing, did he tell his comanders what he is going to do, so they follow the plan? Nope. He didnt. And plan failed because of that
He also got outsmarted by Tywin. Jayne was following Tywins orders when seducing Robb.
And anyone who doesnt realise that, needs to re-read the books. Look at what happened to Westerlings after the war.
Tywin, the most ruthless man to rule the Westerlands, not only forgives the Westerlings, but also rewards them, even though they sided with his enemy openly.
He sided with his mommy against his bannermen time and time again. Catlin releases the most valued hostage, that could have been used to broker a peace => gets sent to the room
Karstarks kill some irrelevant… [view original content]
Yep, He was terrible leader totally unprepared to be a lord not even the king. He should listen to his advisors and what is more important he should use his head instead of his cock.
Assuming Cat freed Jaime and he didn't make any of those mistakes, I think he was still in a bad position. He still needed the Freys to get into the Westerlands and Roose Bolton was still a major commander for the North. He as a young boy had to ally with traitorous people. As far as I can tell there was no guarantee they would not have turned on him even if he didn't make his mistakes.
Comments
Robb had no real chance to win that war. His only chance was with Baratheon victory in the south. And one reason for the war to be taking longer than necessary to end, was that Tywin could not move his army decisively against Robb without overexpose the capital. He was effectively fighting on three fronts with one army.
Another proof of his bad strategy is that he seems to be a "rebel without a cause". In the Art of War, Sun Tzu said a winner wins first and then goes to war. A loser goes to war and then seeks to win. What that means is that the leader must have a clear, achievable objective in mind before committing troops. Without a clear objective, the war is lost from the get-go. Just look at our two disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rob Stark has never really clearly defined his political objectives. At first his goal was to overthrow the usurper in King's Landing. And then he declared independence, thus making an attack on King's Landing irrelevant. And then he decided to attack Casterly Rock simply because he did not want to go home empty-handed, when he should have cut his losses after he became king and went home. The entire campaign just screamed debacle.
And yes, I realize his sisters were held hostage in King's Landing, but even he admitted to his mother that his men would never fight for 2 girls. In other words, that was never a viable political objective.
Exactly he was doomed from the start because he had no ally except the riverlands and most of their army was already defeated.
Filler comment!
Oh I don't deny that it was a cunning tactical maneuverer on Tywin's part. However the fact that it reached that stage for Tywin, speaks volumes about Robb's capability.
You make a good point. I think it would have been the wisest course for Robb to return home in order to build his power base. And should the Lannisters attack the North, they will be the one who get the biggest losses due to having to feed their armies. Robb could have easily held off the Lannister on Moat Cailin and deal with the Ironborn should they attack. It will become too costly for the Lannisters to keep their campaign on the North for long and the Ironborns would have never been successful fighting a well-defended North.
I have never understood why Tywin underestimated the North, it´s true that Rob was green as grass but he had many lords that where veterans and capable commanders and he got even more of them in the riverlands like the blackfish and Jason Mallister.So even if Rob had not been as good as he was it would still have taken some effort to defeat them.
Yes that always struck me as odd too, everyone seemed more concerned about Stannis.
Robb never wanted or even could take Castely Rock so I don't understand your point there..His Westerlands campaign(after Oxcross) was just a a brilliant ploy to lure Tywin's host west and let Stannis take KL and he would have succeded if Edmure wouldn't had screwed it up.
I think we are discussing what happened in the Tv-show.
I personally liked his ploy to lure Tywin to the west in the books. It is unfortunate that in the show they changed it to luring the Mountain instead...
In hindsight I think the show did horrible job with the war. I only read the books after the Red Wedding because I just had to see how it's like on paper but back when all I knew was based on the show, honestly, I didn't understand anything, who are the River lords? What is Oxcross?where is The Crag on amap again?.. I mean they didn't even do a scene where some guy explaining us what's happening on a map or something(not to mention they did the Robb going to Harrenhal scene which didn't make any sense), they just didn't do justice to GRRM's genius mind, planning the entire thing since the first book.
Yeah, part pf me wished that they done things differently. But it is difficult to get everything you want on a 10 episode season. Sometimes you have to make changes and compromises in order to make the show.
Yes this is certainly true, but I think it would've been a nice touch if there could've been some discussion of tactics on both sides. This would've given the audience who hadn't read the books an insight into just what was going on out on the battle field.
Well stannis did hold storms end and crushed the iron born fleet so i understand why tywin respected his military skill.
Calling him a horrible leader is kinda dumb, even if you haven't read the books, you do realise he has won every battle out there, the men adored him, he wasnt afraid to take risk, legends of him riding his direwolf made him feared, he would have made a great king.
But yes, he did make a fatal mistake. Love puts blinders on unfortunately.
True. We didn't really know how the Northern army was progressing. Were they in the Westerlands, were they defending the Riverlands? Was Robb making any real progress with his campaign?
He fucked up by breaking the promises he made with the Freys, otherwise he had a fighting chance at winning since he was unmatched in battle. The marriage lost him the war and his life.
I think to say he was stupid it pretty cruel. Not everyone can be the perfect leader at fifty, let alone fifteen. Yes, he made mistakes and he paid for them in a manner that I think, not even the worst of people should have to suffer. But if you're one of those people who likes to blame a teenager for a fight started by grown men, then I guess he would be considered 'stupid' by those standards.
What's meant is he lost half of HIS army. So, his personal army. Not the actual entire northern force that is spread out across the Riverlands and Westerlands. Or so I assume that is what they meant in the show.
For example, at that point the whole northern army is about 12,000 ish strong.
5,000 of which are with Robb himself. And half of that, 2,500 are the Karstark troops. Hence, how they explain it.
Well, he did make the stupidest decision he could have... and probably shouldn't have been fighting a war while thinking with the head in his pants... But he wasn't a total idiot, just a bad decision maker.
You see... There's this thing called privilege. Robb was born to it, and was raised well into adulthood in it. However, with this privilege comes a strict set of rules. You become a pawn in the "Game of Thrones" if you're lucky/unlucky enough to be born to privilege. This law governs all houses Lannister and Stark alike.
He decided he didn't want to be a pawn(not his decision) when he married Talisa, and not one of Walder's daughers as he had sworn. This is where he is an idiot. He knows VERY WELL (he was raised to adulthood knowing this) that oaths are meant to be KEPT and that horrible things come to people who break them (how many behadings of deserters of the night's watch had he had to watch growing up with Ned Stark as a father?)
Still he decided to break the one oath that he knew very well would hold sway in the entier outcome of the war and you can see it in his face as he makes the decision... it's hidden behind the lust.
He wasn't expecting Walder to make his move at the wedding, BUT he did know Walder is a slimy git, and in any reality never assume anything... so all in all I think that he made the stupidest decision he could have made based on what he'd been taught his whole life. (I mean, even his mother and father were married but not in "love"... WHERE THE HELL does he get this idea of marrying someone you love despite your oath?????)
but not a total idiot.
Robb dishonored his father by accepting the King of the North deal. His dad held a grudge against Jamie Lannister not because he killed the king but because he dared to sit on the iron throne before Robert B arrived to claim it. Ned was all about honor loyalty and the right thing.....although I don't know how aiding the overthrow of the mad king figures into that......still he would not have approved. Anyway what Robb Stark did was treason. Stanis would be the rightful king ....the king that Ned would have supported. When Robb Stark accepted the mantle of King of the North the incest had not even come out, so even if he hated Geoffry, by all appearances Geoff was the rightful king. The story of the incest came out after Ned was executed and after Robb became King, as far as Geoff and everyone else knew...including Robb Stark .... Ned was indeed a traitor and if it were Ned he would have used ice to take off the traitors head. Only people who knew that Geoff wad not a Stag was Sercy Jamie Varys and Stanis. The Karstark debacle was just hypocrisy. After his mother had just committed treason by letting Jamie go it was a bit hypocritical to killKarstark for killing Lannisters. Also I never could figure out what the heck the King of the NORTH was doing fighting in the River lands. And last yes marrying that chick in the show showed no honor. Him marrying Jane in the book was honorable. He was wounded and high on milk of the poppy after a battle. He was convalescing in her castle and while taking care of him, she ended up in his bed. In order to save her honor he married her.
I think the bigger idiot Starks were Catlyn and Sansa. Cat for kidnapping TL. Cat for not taking her arse back to winterfell. Sansa for snitching to Sercy that they were leaving Kings Landing. Had they not done those things there would have been no murder of Neds men in the streets. He would not have been injured and would have had to go hunting with the King, which means the king probably wouldn't have died. No war. Even after all that, if Sansa had kept her mouth shut they would have gotten away long before any of that popped off. And those who reference the book to support Rob being a great leader, try to remember that they loved Rob because he was Neds son not because he was great. A guy lost his hand and Robb earned his respect that was it. Yes he was only 15 but he would not take advice and gave his mother his ear more than any other. Because she overheard Ned planning battles in the past that makes her an expert? He insulted his men by taking his mommies counsel over his men's. He was undefeated in battle but the answer to that claim was that his battles were not significant. They gained him nothing. Every holding he won, he again lost. He would have lost against Stannis and Rindley. And the Tyrrels had not really joined the fight. He only had one major victory. That was against Jamie, but other than a few Lannisters he gained nothing. Again why was the king of the north not defending the North. He clearly was not fighting his way to Kings Landing to avenge his father or save his sisters. Ned told Robb before journeying south to become the Hand that there must always be a Stark at Winterfell. It was the whole reason he was left behind... His father did not mean a 8 year old boy unable to walk. It seems the only teachings of his father that he took to heart was if you are going to execute someone, do it with your own hands, and if you deflower a woman that is not your wife make everyone else suffer for your choices. Sorry for the typos.
He was an idiot for falling in love with the woman.
He did! Roose even said that Robb "never listened". And that was the case - Everytime when Roose wanted to talk,
he got send away by Robb.
Robb Stark is the greatest idiot in Westeros, and potentialy Esos as well.
He had no clear plan for winning the war
He never shared the battle plans with his comanders. When he wanted to trap Lannister army West, to let Stannis take Kings Landing, did he tell his comanders what he is going to do, so they follow the plan? Nope. He didnt. And plan failed because of that
He also got outsmarted by Tywin. Jayne was following Tywins orders when seducing Robb.
And anyone who doesnt realise that, needs to re-read the books. Look at what happened to Westerlings after the war.
Tywin, the most ruthless man to rule the Westerlands, not only forgives the Westerlings, but also rewards them, even though they sided with his enemy openly.
He sided with his mommy against his bannermen time and time again. Catlin releases the most valued hostage, that could have been used to broker a peace => gets sent to the room
Karstarks kill some irrelevant squires out of rage => killed.
And not only did he kill the Karstark leaders, but also sent his men to chase after Karstark soldiers and kill them!!
He wastes his only leverage over the Iron isles and leaves himself open to attack, leaving the North completely undefended as a side bonus.
He picks allies based on wether or not he likes them, rather than wether they are useful.
He could have sided with Stannis, thus allowing them to gather forces and go for Kings landing, forcing a pitch battle between undefeated Robb and glorious Stannis on one side, and Tywin on the other.
TLDR: The biggest idiot and moron of westeros = Robb Stark
Quite ridiculous how many people in here thinks he was a complete idiot. It's the same people who believe that Tywin Lannister was a genius which he really was not. Tywin lost all the battles against Robb Stark and got completly outmanouvered leading to his son getting capture and in the meanwhile his idiot kid and grandchild chopped off Ned Starks head without Tywin making sure to stop it. He's pretending to be the richest man in Westeros when he in fact is the man with the biggest debts in the entire kingdoms. His knowledge in economy is completly YOLO. In any army that suffers defeat the morale will go very low, so how not more of the westerland lords plotted behind Tywin's back is a miracle and quite unrealistic considering that it was what struck the Northern Army.. Not to mention that he ordered summarize executions of his own innocent soldiers. He also recruited men forcefully.
Not to mention the biggest Tywin mistakes ever: He didn't realise the potential of his own dwarf son, who despite his short length actually had an intellect more than can be said about his other two idiot children. He doesn't even realise that Cersei's children in fact are Jaime's. With the kind of logic some people use on here a lot of characters would be morons. No, I don't think particulary that he was a major idiot. Sure he made some big fuckups but so did Tywin.
Not to mention the forces of the riverlords that joined him after he defeated Jaime Lannister. Which was a brilliant manouver. I bet he must have had closer to 30-40k after that. Karstarks can't have been that many.
I'm certain he does. Him being a product of incestuous sexual activity he's the opposite of what most would expect. I think he knew but denied rumors because it would weaken the Lannisters' political standing and allow barbarians lime Stannis to be known as king. And in my mind anyway Tywin did defeat Robb pretty swiftly. He planned the Red Wedding which had him as well as his mother be killed leaving several houses aligned with them (Karstarks, Forresters etc.) be at the mercy of the Boltons.
Robb is/was one of my favourite characters because he is so 'human'. He was a great commander, but, a horrible politician. He made many mistakes, but who doesn't? We all make mistakes and we all pay for those mistakes. He followed his heart and married Talisa. Looking back; he shouldn't of done that. He executed Rickard Karstark. Looking back; he should of listened to Catelyn, and kept him hostage so he wouldn't lose the entire Karstark army.
Sure, he made many mistakes. But, the people calling him "a huge idiot" are wrong. He wasn't. He just made some mistakes, like any other fuckin' human being on the planet. I won't lie, I listen to my heart a lot more then my head. So, if I was in Robb's position I would've made mistakes just like him. I'm pretty sure A LOT of us would've made mistakes if we were in Robb's boots.
But- his bad decisions aside; Robb would've made a great leader if he had of won the war. You can't deny that.
He's gone. And the reason he is gone is because of his decisions, but, I still love him as a character. He wasn't an idiot, he was a human being. He was a good, (mostly) honorable, compassionate young man. Oh, and let us not forget that he was indeed a YOUNG man. 17-18 at the most when the show starts. So, you could blame his mistakes on him being too youthful and not knowing what the actual world was like.
Anyway...
I'm rooting of Stannis Baratheon right now, but, if a surviving Stark takes the mantle of 'King/Queen In The North'- I will be behind them 100%.
TheNorthRemembers
Robb is one of my favourite characters as well I agree that he made mistakes but I don't think executing Lord Karstark was one of them sure it would've benefited him more to keep him alive but he murdered two boys because they had the name Lannister. If Robb let Lord Karstark get away with that then he would've been no better than Tywin Lannister.
I actually want Rickon to become the King in the North.
"The Northeners will never forget" -Tyrion Lannister
When he is confronted about it by Cersei he is denying it completly, S04.E10 in the tv-series.. Can't recall reading about the scene in the books but still.. So with your logic Stannis is a barbaric but the master brain behind the red wedding is not? 'Tywin defeated Robb pretty swiftly.'. He was murdered along with several other northern lords after having received guest rights. It is such a disgusting crime that even people siding with the Lannisters was disgusted. The Lannisters has lost half of their army or more in the war against the Starks and Stannis and are in heavy debt already to the iron bank. The entire westeros despise them for various reasons. They now have to rely on the Tyrells to pay their debts. That swift victory might have wiped out Tywin Lannisters dear family from history because they are certainly in a position where their house survival is hanging on a thin thread.
I still think Ned's worse.
He'd be banging Roslin and having Joffrey's head on a spike.
Ned was honored, not stupid
He should have listened to his mom a lot more.
Why do people call cat dumb? She told Robb to not trust Theon, to not break his vow and told Bran to not climb. She only released Jaime because she had lost her husband thought she lost her 2 sons and didnt want her daughters abused.
See what happens when you dont do what your mother insists?
Yeah, that explains why she ripped her own clothes and starves herself after he died...
Yep, He was terrible leader totally unprepared to be a lord not even the king. He should listen to his advisors and what is more important he should use his head instead of his cock.
Assuming Cat freed Jaime and he didn't make any of those mistakes, I think he was still in a bad position. He still needed the Freys to get into the Westerlands and Roose Bolton was still a major commander for the North. He as a young boy had to ally with traitorous people. As far as I can tell there was no guarantee they would not have turned on him even if he didn't make his mistakes.
He made 3 stupid mistakes