Who is the t******?
As we all know, Gwyn Whitehall revealed to Rodrik that there was a traitor within House Forrester and on their council. This leaves Duncan, Royland, the Mother (who's name I can't remember) and the Maester.
I'm actually convinced that it must be the Mother: the Whithill's have Ryon, who she puts above everyone else, and she tends to ask a lot of questions as well. She'd go to any lengths to keep Ryon safe after seeing what happened to Ethan- I think the whole experience cracked her, and that she was giving information to the Whitehill's in order to keep Ryon safe. Also, she has constantly been trying to follow the least aggressive policy, I assume in order to keep Ryon safe- it would make sense if she was deliberately trying to steer policy from offending the Whitehill's.
As for the rest, it's unlikely: Duncan is too loyal, Royland would never dream of co-operating with the enemy, and as for the Maester I just feel he'd be the obvious suspect, too obvious for TT. And besides, what reasons would any of them have? Duncan and Royland, depending on who you choose as your sentinel, wouldn't be angry enough to then turn against the house, and the Maester doesn't seem to have any motive at all for doing such a thing. The only one who would really betray the house would be Lady Forrester, in order to keep Ryon safe. And plus, the Whitehill's would be stupid if they didn't use Ryon as a bargaining chip for information.
Also, is it possible that the Whitehill's paid Damian to try and kill Mira? Gwyn did say they had sent large quantities of gold to someone in King's Landing; it's more than likely that it could've been sent to Damian, so the Whitehill's could neutralise the Forrester's influence.
Comments
I agree. I think their best bet at shock value would be the mother while most people think it will be the maester. They leave hints that it is the maestar from the start with him wanting to give tribute to the Boltons for possible peace.
Also it's obvious to a lot of people that they are almost copying all the Stark stories. From Gared's two new "friends" and enemy at the wall like Jon Snow to Mira's political intrigue in King's Landing like Sansa to Rodrik having to take control of his house and people in a desperate situation like Robb Stark and then of course the enemies having younger siblings. It's only natural the mother will betray her son for other child.
I guess we can't write off Duncan though. So far he has been the best ally sentinel or not but there is no guarantee what he will do once he actually has the North Grove. Royland charges into possible battle too much to be the traitor IMO. So it's most likely the obvious choice Maester or the what they think is shock value but surprisingly obvious choice the Mother.
I also think it's too obvious that it's Ortengryn. Duncan is actually my second choice.
Gwyn, a Whitehill, gets into contact with Rodrik through none other than Duncan. Duncan brings Ironwood shields to the Wall - at a time when the Whitehills are controlling 100% of the Ironwood. Gwyn says her father has a plan; perhaps it's using Duncan and Gared to find the North Grove? Maybe that's really why they sent Britt to the Wall - to follow Gared there and then silence him, but Britt's scorn got in the way of things? Ludd seemed pretty proud of his men in Episode 1, so what would make him just send Britt to the Wall like that? There must have been another reason.
All my money's on Maester Ortengryn. Royland, despite being my sentinel, would probably be my second guess, a distant second, but still second.
I just can't simply get over the fact that a lot of people think it's Elissa. I mean, can you really name the normal reason why she could do that? You said that she's the one who support non-agressive policy, but I think you all recall the moment in Episode 3 when Elissa said that the Whitehills can't enter the Great Hall? And her line about "killing all the Whitehills down to the babes in their beds". You think she was just acting and lying straight into her son's face?
If she wants to please the Whitehills so much, why she said to the Whitehills something like "Men with no honor are not better than dogs" and "They're soiling our house". It means she's so obsessed with Ryon that letting her house fall and children die (according to your version, she may cause the assassination attempt on Mira, Lord Whitehill's knowledge about Asher and Rodrik's plans to save the house) is the way she sees thing to be done? I think it's pretty obvious that Elissa is NOT the traitor, even though she's quite reckless, especially in words.
Duncan? It's not "Now You See Me" (movie starring M. Ruffalo and J. Eisenberg) to create twist from the pure air. It looks like Duncan Tuttle is the mastermind manipulator and hypocrite, because he:
1. Made Lord Gregor Forrester think he is loyal friend and councillor.
2. Made Forrester family think he can be trusted
3. Ensure Gared will tell no one about the Grove
4. Send his nephew to the Wall to use him later believing poor Gared to think he serves House Forrester
5. Locate to North Grove to do what? We don't know yet, maybe he works for the Whitehills? Or Tuttle even wants to claim Ironrath for himself using his late friend's trust, as well as his poor sons and the Whitehills? Littlefinger 2.0...
It's Maester Ortysomething. Nobody else would betray the house. Lady Forrester wouldn't inform Whitehills about the rescue plans, wouldn't put in danger rest of kids just to save Ryon. She's not that stupid. Royland is war machine, too simple for intrigues. Duncan can't be the traitor, Gregor did trust him. Enemies killed his brother, almost killed his nephew, why would he reveal details about North Grove? No, Duncan is too loyal. Talia - now that would be interesting but I don't see one reason why she'd betray family after Ethan's death. Only one person can be the traitor.
Best twist: NO ONE IS.
Gwyn lied, it's the real master plan to keep Forresters separated and let them kill each other.
They got in some spies that follow them, or some other means to get info to 'shock' you into believing.
Ok.
How did she find out about the possible plot of Forresters (expelling Griff/getting Ryon back) and the fact that Asher is coming back?
That's actually quite a suggestion. Then again though, Britt was quite open that he didn't want to be there and he was intent on killing Garid whether you confront him or not, so if he was sent to spy on Garid and find the North Grove he wasn't told. Also, Britt being sent to the Wall means Lord Whitehill must know about the North Grove (I guess through Duncan, if what you suggest is true), but what motives would Duncan have for his actions?
Like most are saying, it's the Maester
Uncle is not exactly subtle. And if it's not just overheard (not that hard with everything in disarray, and your men having access to Ironrath anyway) then it's common sense. They want to expel Griff and get Ryon, look at their act and make a wild guess, 50% of time you'll guess right anyway.
Im not ruling out Mother, in fact, she's my 1st suspect, but everybody lies. And I don't trust Gwyn.
Just checking, is Elissa the mother?
Thing is, just because she's a traitor wouldn't mean she didn't hate them. You talked about when she said she wanted to kill all the Whitehill's even the children- she wasn't lying obviously, she hates them. But it's very natural for a mother to do anything to protect their child, Ryon, so though she hates the Whitehills and hates the situation she is forced to co-operate to help Ryon. Co-operation and alliance do not go hand-in-hand.
And what do you mean, please the Whitehills? Of course she doesn't want to please them, she is doing what she can t protect her child. And as for destroying the house for Ryon, she is actually pretty close to doing that- eg; she wanted Rodrik to kiss Lord Whitehill's ring, which she dismisses as a little act but really has a lot of significance. Watching Ethan and then the threat of losing Ryon has broken her, and though she hates the Whitehill's she'd do anything to protect Ryon, and in the process she is unintentionally destroying the house.
And as for Duncan being the traitor;
What your suggesting is that Duncan always had a long term plan, which was how he got to be trusted so much by Lord Forrester. So what then, he foresaw the Frey's betray them at the Red Wedding? And besides, the House was in such a weak situation after Lord Forrester's death, if he wanted he could've taken power then, with only a little kid standing his way.
And as for making sure Gared told no one else about the North Grove, it was Lord Forrester who originally said that.
When they were talking about sending Gared to the Wall, he hadn't even been told about the North Grove message yet!
Duncan is definitely not the traitor, and the reasons you suggest for him being so are very far fetched.
That would be interesting, but I'm not sure TT would do something like that. And they probably wouldn't resort just to killing each other either. I don't think Lord Whitehill is clever enough to pull off a trick like that.
The Maester is probably still my number 1 suspect, but I was thinking it could be whoever you don't pick as sentinel. I get that Rodrick and Duncan have reasons to be loyal (and reasons to be suspected?), but perhaps being spurned by Ethan was enough to push them over the edge and turn coat. It's just an idea, but would be an interesting way to incorporate our decision making into the plot.
Just a thought...
I don't think it's Elissa, solely for the reason that she wouldn't have told the Whitehills that we were planning on rescuing Ryon.
Actually I freaked out a little when Gryff grabbed Duncan by the arm and yelled "This is my man!" I thought he was the traitor at first :P I'm glad I was wrong.
I'm pretty sure Gwyn says that she knows you either plan to expel Gryff or save Ryan depending on what dialogue option you chose. That definitely means either someone's overhearing the meetings (which I HIGHLY doubt) or there's a traitor.
I had bit of a heartattack because I thought the same exact thing. xD
I actually feel like it may determinant. Like if you picked Duncan as Sentinel, Royland is the traitor and vice versa. But that's just a theory a game theory But the likely suspect for me is the Maester, but he has not clear motives which makes me doubt him. Lady Forrester does have a motive to betray (Tell the Whitehill's your plans inexchange for Ryon's safety) but, I don't believe she'll do that.
I have to say, Duncan seems to be it.
He's the most involved with the plot (the House in Rodrick's story and the North Grove in Gared's), he seems to be the most schrewish (sending Gared to the Wall without informing Ethan, forcing Gared to then break his vows), and he tends to take the safest routes (appeasing Whitehill men AND he doesn't really try to save Ethan from Ramsey, getting held back like a child while Royland actually took a punch).
He, if anyone, is the traitor.
Just realized, no one is accusing Royland of being the traitor. Just pointing that out.
Why would Lady Forrester give up the plan to save her own son, though? Giving up troop movements or something like that, I could believe, but telling the Whitehills Rodrik's plan only ensures Ryon will be put under even more surveillance, and unpleasant surveillance at that.
People keep comparing her to Catelyn, but Catelyn was in a literal lose-lose situation. She either stands there while Stark bannerman slays Jamie and signs her kids' death warrants or sets her mortal enemy free and gambles on the 0.1% chance he'll send them back alive. Lady Forrester is not in that position (yet), there's no reason for her to be a traitor, imo.
Britt was a Bolton not a Whitehill though, right? Correct me if im wrong. But if that is the case, it could be an indication that Bolton leadership is not as 'okay' with the whole situation and aftermath as Ludd Whitehill might have us believe.
Or he was sent there to kill Gared, plain and simple.
He would be too obvious. I think having Duncan as the traitor would make for a very twisty plot-twist. Like, after you've done a lot of shit as Gared, got to the North Grove, got whatever was there and handed it all to Duncan, everyone looks to him with extreme joy, happy that the Forresters are finally gonna have a victory, but he tells his whole plan, how he worked with Lord Whitehill and how he betrayed us, and while lord Whitehill is being an asshole to us as usual, gloating about his victory, a spear suddenly hits Gryff in the back, and he falls down, dead.
Duncan Tuttle then sits on the House's main chair and looks at us, with a smirk "Two ruined houses, and just me to be their Lord" and takes both our Ironwood and money, damning the Whithills and Forresters to be his slaves forever and ever
Sorry, I don't know who Catelyn is. Was she one of the Starks in the TV Series?
I think she's trying to move policy in a less confrontational manner, like when she wanted Rodrik to kiss the ring and when she wanted t make Ryon the focus rather than Gryff. She's, in my opinion, trying to convince Rodrik to conduct a policy that will satisfy the Whitehill's in order to keep Ryon safe.
Why she'd do such a thing is quite simple: she watched Ethan get his throat slit open, and that experience broke her- notice how she has become less dignified and controlled as the series as progressed. She will be desperate to make sure Ryon doesn't share a similar fate, and if the Whitehill's offered Ryon's safety in exchange for information then she would probably see that as a worthwhile deal.
And plus, of all of the Council she has the most to lose and then most to gain by turning traitor: meanwhile, neither Duncan or Royland could realistically gain much from allowing the Whitehill's to destroy the Forresters, and I can't see any motives for the Maester (and besides, he's too obvious).
Why? You haven't given a single reason why he could gain from such a deal, and if I'm honest I can't see so either.
Plus, you say that Lady Forrester isn't stupid enough to reveal their plans. Yes, she isn't stupid, but she's desperate: after Ethan's death she was broken (notice how her dignified attitude has slowly crumbled as the series has progressed), and she has the most to gain out of all of them if she turned traitor (Ryon's safety). She may not like having to deal with the Whitehill's but she is prepared to sacrifice the Forrester's pride and honour in order to keep Ryon safe. In the meantime, she has been trying to encourage the Council to have a conciliatory policy towards the Whitehill's, trying to keep Ryon safe. She's not stupid, she's desperate and the Whitehill's would be fools not to expose this weakness.
Royland is too loyal- he'd be a lot more subtle if he was the traitor, and certainly wouldn't try to fight Gryff. Duncan is more suspect, but I also doubt he'd do such a thing- he might end up endangering the family by trying to appease the Whitehill's, but I don't think he's any sort of traitor.
Also, my problem with the Maester is that he doesn't really have much reason to turn traitor. Out of all of them, Lady Forrester is the most desperate and has the most to gain by providing the Whitehill's with info.
Maybe she thought the plan was too risky, considering the lack of military strength the Forrester's have?
I'm definitely leaning toward Elissa, the mother, at this point as well. She seems to fit perfectly into the same mold as Catelyn from the books/show. They're very similar in that they would do anything to protect their children, even if those actions seem treasonous to others.
If not her, then the maester would seem the obvious choice. He was the one that suggested that we simply give the Whitehills our ironwood. Of course, this choice seems so obvious that it would actually shock me if it ended up being him.
I get the Game Theory reference there...
Not only does the Maester not have clear motives, but he's also too obvious. If I've learnt anything from TT, it's that they never, NEVER choose the obvious options.
In my opinion, Lady Forrester seems desperate enough to jeopardise the future of House Forrester for Ryon, especially after what happened to Ethan.
Royland would be too obvious? I have to disagree with that. I'd actually be surprised if it ended up being Royland. Perhaps its because I chose him as my sentinel, but he seems to be one of the most single minded individuals in the story. He wants nothing more than to kill every Whitehill he possibly can. If it turned out that he was a traitor, then I'd have to applaud him for the act he put on. He even followed my command to attack Gryff when I ordered him too, knowing that he was outnumbered and could get him killed.
And about the sending Gared to the wall thing: it was Talia that gave Gared the medallion thing, not Duncan, and it just happened to be key in decoding that map Duncan gave him. If Duncan had planned the whole thing, he would've already known about the medallion. And as for taking the safest routes, that's just his approach: as he himself, "cunning can be a sharper instrument than the sword". Royland meanwhile is too loyal to be a traitor, and would be more prepared to take a punch or enter into combat against the odds.
That's why it be obvious. Lord Whitehill just wants one excuse to invade the shit out of our lands, and making Gryff piss me off while Royland is constantly telling me to attack, don't be a pussy and show strenght would easily create trouble (looking at it from a Whitehill's perspective). I don't think it's Royland, though.
As Ethan ask maester what to do. Besides, he may have reasons we don't know yet. Right now elimination game points at him.
Lady Forrester, widow. Lady Forrester who hates Whitehills most, who wants to kill them all, even babies. You are saying she'd help Whitehills who brought a murderer to Ironrath? For bringing back one kid she'd risk everything else? She'd reveal plans that can save her family? Would she agree for another fall of her house? Then she must be super duper crazy, not desperate. I don't think she is.
I think it's Lady Forrester. She undermined Ethan so I don't see why she wouldn't undermine Rodrik.
My 2 suspects are The Maester and Lady Forrester. Ryon is the Whitehill's hostage and I think Lady Forrester wants to surrender to the Whitehills to get Ryon back and unharmed.
As for the Maester, He serves Ironrath, not necessarily House Forrester, So he could be a spy.
It can't have been Ser Royland, he's aggressive to protect House Forrester and It can't have been Duncan, he's served the Forresters for years.
Duncan has a pretty good alibi. I think he wanted to send Gard to the wall just because for the North Groves sake.
I guess no one would be okay with that and he swore to not reveal it anyway
The maester isn't from the north, and in the first episode it was stated that he didn't want to end up in the north as a maester either, and wanted to get sent to the Eyrie. Maybe that is motivation. Betrayal gets him out of Ironrath.
In any case there are lots of reasons to suspect him. Maesters are the ones who care for and handle the ravens, and the plan for whether to rescue Ryon or drive Gryff from Ironrath likes to Highpoint almost immediately. That would seem to suggest that the information was sent to Highpoint by raven. Also unlike Duncan or Lady Forrester, who lost family members because of the Whitehills, the Maester doesn't have a personal reason to hate them. The maester also consistently offers advice that seems to play right into what the Whitehills want. In Episode 1 he wants you to surrender your Ironwood and in episode 2 he advises on attacking Gryff at Ironrath. According to Gwynn Gryff was sent to Ironrath to provoke a fight there, so the maester is telling Rodrik to do what Lord Whitehill wants. Also remember his hilariously bad romance advice? Maybe he isn't just clueless about women, but was actively trying to steer Rodrik into ruining his chances for securing a strategic alliance with another house.
It has to be Elissa, I mean she practically begged Ludd to come.
You've got the best theory/explanation yet, and it all makes sense when I think about it. Anyway, I'm going to make different profiles in my game and hope I won't f#%k up everything. I'm actually make Ser Royland my sentinel, or maybe I should take Duncan. (So he'll think I'm on his side.)
I'll also not go with the T. Lannister deal, (maybe the paper in the end is useful)
GoT is sooo hard!!!
It's possible. She doesn't give a shit about her sons' (both Ethan and Rodrik) decisions. She wants to protect this house on her own. I like strong female characters and that's why she is one of my favs. I can't imagine she could betrayed them. AND it would be one more reason to think she is just a telltale copy of Catelyn Stark.
Royland can't be a traitor, Duncan also probably not. Ortengryn is suspected by almost everyone and maybe that makes him unlikely? I can't wait to know because I have really no idea right now.