Bonnie's thoughts on men: warranted?
Was anyone else feeling like Bonnie's insinuations in the woods in No Going Back were unfounded?
I understand how it might seem like Luke and Kenny are tearing into each other just to make themselves look superior, but their concerns and desires are all reasonable and motivated by survival or a want to see other people survive. Each one's opinion of the other is worsened because each of them don't believe the other is acting rational or coming to a coherent decision on where to go or what to do.
Bonnie's sexist remarks come out of the blue and weren't called for. Or maybe that's just brought up by her past experiences causing her to view the situation from a slightly distorted perspective. Either way, it seems the collapse of civilization is hailing the return of many old ways of thinking, namely related to the battle of the sexes(which makes me sad).
It's one of the only two faults with this episode. Possibly three if I'm forgetting something. Were they trying to come up with an inward reason for her to want to leave other than "Kenny ackin' cray-cray", and just hand her a saddle? Y'know, for that dead horse?
Thanks for being cool about this people. I know it can't have been easy, it's related to a pretty touchy subject. I knew inwardly that the discussion might have had some runoff into other topics, but you guys handled it pretty well. Or didn't want to touch it or this thread with a ten-foot pole, which I can respect.
Comments
The MRAs have arrived I see.
What's an MRA?
Men's rights activist, basically feminazis but for sexism against men.
How is he a men's rights activist?
Complaining about tiny insulated examples 'sexism' against men and complaining one line is one of only two faults in the entire episode, when it doesn't hurt anyone at all.
Not really, Bonnie described me to a Tee.
He expressed his opinion.
Considering Bonnie's stupid and selfish behaviour throughout the game I find it hard to care about her opinions on things
Opinion? What are those? The interwebs didn't teach me that
Well to be honest, she was one of the more believable characters in S2. She had her own self interests at heart, which i think most people at the core of their being would feel the same way. I personally like flawed characters. I don't think Bonnie was at the wrong in what she did, she just lost someone she really cared about, and now with Kenny acting the way he was, i can't say i wouldn't of done the same exact thing.
Whatever she said in this episode I took with a grain of salt, mainly because her rant towards Clementine felt out-of-character and mainly served to make her 'betrayal' more detestable.
I suspect that her role in Episode 5 was to be hated by the majority along with Mike, probably because most players took a liking to them both in Episode 3 and 4, which gave me the impression that it was unintentional on the writer's part.
Bonnie was my favourite character in 400 days and one of my favourites in season 2. Her actions were believable (unlike many others). It doesnt stop her actions being stupid,spiteful and selfish
True. But it made her character good imo. if she makes it out of the ice, she thinks about her own mortality. Maybe that is why she did it. We do know bonnie is a coward.
Well before the shoot-out between Clem's group and the Russians, Luke and Kenny were at each other's throats fighting over who's fault it was for leading them into a shitty situation. Then after the fight, Kenny starts treating Arvo like shit and Mike tries to talk to him. Bonnie just notices that all the men in this group are trying to control everything and it's only leading to more negative consequences and everyone feeling like shit. Kenny, Mike, and Luke just don't realize what they are doing as everyone is stressed, hurt, and growing impatient.
During this conversation Luke says he will try and do better (if you let the dialogue line run till the end) and it looks like their is an attempt for everyone getting along at the campfire scene, but unfortunately the most level-headed of the group is killed off. Luke was the glue that held the group together and his death reverted back to everyone trying to control what to do, now both men and women. This all then leads to Bonnie simply getting fed up which then causes her to choose a reckless choice of abandoning her group again (detriment of course).
Wait, I thought feminism was about equal rights for both men and women o_o have I been lied to all these years?
Yes.
My head hurts.
Don't you use Kenny's 'urban incident' as one of the reason to dislike him? One tiny incident makes him racist?
Is this any different?
He also complained about the writers for GoT being uncreative because there was a lack of female characters. Talk about kinda being hypocritical o_o
I don't see how a biased remark of a character is a fault in the episode. What about the lying and swearing and egoism and scapegoating and use of violence? Are those flaws of the episodes as well or is this just more or less realistic human behaviour?
He is pretty hypocritical but oh well.
Does it really matter?
If it bothers you, she's determinant. Kill her before she says those sexist remarks.
Nothing here seemed radical or outrageous. Also do you think anyone who talks about sexism against men is a MRA?
Gravity falls fan i see... But tbh, Me, as a male with no self esteem, will admit that us males, most of us, sorta do act that way, Like, alot.
Actually, I'm not an MRA.
This is really more about whether her remarks where relevant to anything that was actually said. The men were fighting over something irrelevant to what she was attributing their behavior to. If that's supposed a flaw in her character, I'll take it.
I didn't really notice. that. What I took from it is Luke was trying to defend himself from Kenny's aggression, and everyone trying to talk Kenny down from his harsh attitude. They needed to, Kenny was the only one who wasn't listening, and beating the hell out of Arvo made it worse on himself. I'd only recognize control come into it whenever Kenny did something rash and the group came down on him for it. While we're there, Jane was also a part of those heated debates.
It's hard to pin down Feminism these days. I'm not really involved in any of that, I'm from the perspective of "can't we all just get along?" So I don't like to think of myself as an 'anything'-ist.
I wouldn't say she's a coward, and I would excuse her for wanting to leave. Taking our stuff was way out of line, but this isn't about what she did, or whether I like her or not. This is about everyone trying to keep Kenny under control and her responding with "heugh, men."
Umm. I think that Bonnie's opinion could be one perspective on how Luke and Kenny were acting, and after looking at that scene again, I think people are misconstruing what was going on. I'm not sure she was talking, in her first statements, about Luke's arguments with Kenny specifically.
Okay, so going back to the scene, this is what happened:
[Kenny had just knocked Arvo down and was telling him to not "fuckin' move" after Arvo had disobeyed Kenny, and Mike went to go talk to Kenny about treating Arvo better.]
Bonnie: What is it with you guys?
Luke: What do you mean?
Bonnie: Every man I've known is always tryin' to let each other know how tough they are. Put 'em in their place. Buncha dominant, alpha male horse shit. And it all ends the same way.
Luke: Don't look at me. I ain't that guy.
Bonnie: Oh, that ain't true. You get into your fair share of pissin' matches, too.
Luke: Do I?
Bonnie: Are you kiddin' me? Yes.
Luke: I guess I should work on that.
Clem: They're just scared...that's when it happens...when they don't know what to do.
Bonnie: Yeah. That makes sense to me.
Hmm and then Luke says,
Luke: [looking over at Mike, Kenny, and Jane] Guess it took a woman to talk some sense into 'em. Looks like Jane broke it up.
Haha but really. I think Bonnie above was talking about how Mike went over to "talk" with Kenny, but it sounds like it may have turned into an argument, as Luke then says, "Looks like Jane broke it up," implying that she had broken up the argument, or "pissin' match" (ew) that Mike and Kenny (the two men over there) were having. Or, Bonnie could've been talking about how Kenny had just knocked Arvo down, and how Kenny was asserting that Arvo should be listening to Kenny, as (from Bonnie's point-of-view) Kenny is "asserting" himself as the "dominant male" over Arvo. In addition, Bonnie references how Luke was kind of acting like a dick of an "alpha male" too, and from other parts of the game, it's implied that Luke often butted heads with Carver when the Cabin group was still originally at Howe's before they first escaped. Bonnie could've been referring to these, in addition to all of Luke's past arguments with Kenny, as "pissin' matches" between men.
But it makes me wonder, and the mention of feminism in this thread was making me think...
Remember when Kenny said that his dad was "one mean son'ombitch," but he also said that his dad had taught Kenny "respect"? Sounded like the guy beat Kenny, or whipped him or was just plain cold or cruel or something if Kenny ever showed disrespect as a kid. What else had Kenny's dad taught him, perhaps inadvertently? Did he teach him that a "man" should be strong, probably? That a "man" shouldn't show his feelings publicly (Kenny grieved for Sarita alone in the tent) and that a "true man" doesn't need help from others, and can solve all problems on his own? (Kenny was not compromising on going somewhere other than Wellington; nor would he really compromise with much else during the buildup of the season.) Do you guys think Kenny was trying to "teach" Arvo some of the "respect" Kenny's daddy had taught him as well, when Arvo didn't listen to Kenny's order to stop walking, and Kenny pushed Arvo down, and told him to "fuckin' listen to me"? Do you think Kenny would've treated Arvo the same way if Arvo was a girl? Because I really don't think he would have almost beaten a teenage girl with glasses to near-death for near no good reason, like he had with Arvo. (Shoot me down if you think I'm wrong here, guys.) On the other hand, Kenny often showed great willingness to protect A.J., and to care for the baby like a father, almost to a fault (he sometimes kept A.J. away from his mother). So Kenny did show his nurturing side, for sure. Yet of course he didn't quite balance this well, as he would do anything for his "famleh" (family) and sometimes that "anything" was morally questionable.
Luke's not free from fault on this either. His idea of helping Sarah out of that trailer was to yell at her for a good few hours, not talk to her like Clem did. If it weren't for Clem, Luke wouldn't have been able to save Sarah, period. Similarly, Luke doesn't give his best friend Nick the emotional support he really needs. Luke thinks he's doing good by Nick by toughening him up and saying things like, "Hell, if Clem, a little girl, can walk through this herd of walkers, then you should be able to easy, Nick."...'Cause I'm sure it realllly helps a 20-something-year-old suicidal guy to be told that an 11-year-old girl is braver than him. -.-
But if we're gonna go past sexism and touch on feminism, I may as well say it. I'm a feminist, and I hope all of you are too (you might be and you don't know it lol), because feminists want equal rights for everyone, not just women, and "feminism" =/= "man-hating." "Man-hating" is another term for "misandry" and it's a different thing altogether. (Lol I love my girls, but I love boys too. <333 ) But you guys should remember that sexism against women hurts men as well, and feminism also wants the best for men as well. In the same way that society generally expects women to be "soft" and "nurturing" and "emotional," society generally expects men to NOT be feminine, and for men to be "hard" and "distant" and "stoic." When they have issues, men are expected to "suck it up" and just keep "soldiering on" because they don't want to appear "girly." God forbid a man is depressed or wants to show his feelings like a woman, or needs to cry, or feels the need to go to a therapist for mental issues. And why? Because showing emotion is for some reason a bad thing; it's a form of "weakness" to "cry like a girl" when it shouldn't be. (Disclaimer: Hell even women feel the same way and don't pursue mental help for similar reasons as men. I'm just saying in general, men tend to spurn help more than women. But it's a shame for anyone to feel this way at all.) :Ahem: But, all I'm saying is, if some characters like Kenny and Luke had been taught in the past to be more nurturing and taught to be less of "alpha males," and taught to be less hard and taught to perhaps be kinder/more compassionate towards people like Arvo, or Nick, or Sarah, then we prooobably would've gotten vastly different endings, with vastly more people alive.
...Ahh that was long. Well, gonna sleep now. XD
Well, either that or just an expression of frustration with men and the overall circumstances.
I don't think the apocalypse brings back this kind of thinking, cos it is present-day anyway. I'm not from the US but these "typical
male/female" remarks must be something you encounter here and there, they're almost always uncalled for, same what you think about Bonnie's line. So there's nothing to be upset about. It just adds to the already sparse realism in this game, that Bonnie won't think twice about saying things like that. Most other characters only acted as plot device puppets anyway.
I thought she said she was a coward or whatever. I remember she got the label but don't exactly remember the dialogue, or the scenario, i'm sure one of the fans could tell you.
I feel like they put the feminist stuff in there to kind of tell you how the thing with Leland turned out. I was disappointed that she really didn't say anything about 400 Days in it. Although, there was a time in episode 4 when she mentioned her track marks.
The collapse knocks human advancement down a few ages, most relevant being the Information Age. This takes away the information network and really hurts people's ability to archive information and find old archives for discoveries and studies done, namely on human behavior. With that stuff gone, people are limited to personal observation and secondary information if they can drop focus on survival for a moment. Obviously everyone wouldn't suddenly start thinking traditionally, but they will die. They can advise and educate the people they are survived by, but those people must ultimately make their own judgment, so I believe in that sense outdated perspectives can make a comeback.
Bonnie can be sexist and Lukin for the D if you catch my drift.
Carver and Luke are very different, and we know from 400 Days that Howe's used to be a good place, but that changed wen Carver started taking the reigns. Them's weren't just pissing matches, I'm very sure those were disagreements over the group's vital policies from foreign to self-government.
Kenny wasn't trying to teach Arvo anything. He hated him and wished he was dead. As for whether Arvo was a girl, Kenny probably wouldn't have been physically abusive, but he probably would have kept being verbally abusive and would probably still want to leave the girl behind. He wanted to leave Lilly. He seems like the "i don't hit women" type, but then again lots of people don't hit women first out of principle, so I think Arvo being a healthy male with no obvious disabilities is important. Narratively, the less reasons to refrain from beating him, the better. And a father doesn't have to be physically abusive to raise their kid on harsh parenting.
Kenny has no problem showing weakness openly. He doesn't bother to isolate himself or his family drama from the group when he stops the train, and even takes a knee if Katjaa is allowed to kill Duck herself. Whether or not Sarita is with him, he's openly grieving by the statue before Clem and Jane return with Luke. Everyone can see it, he just gets aggressive whenever they go up to him.
Luke and Sarah had likely been trapped there for hours. If he was yelling and trying to get her to move, he'd probably exhausted all other ways he knew of to comfort her and encourage her to keep going. I think he does give Nick the emotional support he needs. He asks how he's doing at the ski lodge, and he could have had time to talk to him between Carver's beatdown and the night they decide to escape. I don't believe Nick was having suicidal thoughts, because when Walter confronted him about Matthew, he tried to apologize(he looked scared, too) and not once suggested that he deserved to die for what happened. Nick's just scared of walkers and Luke was trying to help him. They are best friends, after all.
I would attribute the ending possibilities and majority of deaths in S2 to the human condition rather than male dominance. We're smarter than that.
And there we have an interesting overarching theme for season 3
Though it rather applies in the long run and not really for Bonnie; she still seems to have the mindset of a pre-apocalypse living person. Clementine on the other hand hasn’t gathered many well-founded opinions; the apocalypse could do anything to her way of thinking and understanding of the world. I wished season 2 would have explored that some more, also with a side glance on Sarah and Becca.
Back on topic: you have to ask yourself why you think that outdated perspectives make a comeback and if it’s really appropriate to call them outdated. I mean, there’s a reason, why opinions like that even do come about.
You can argue, that most men aren't a bunch of dominant alphas nowadays. But it sure applies for the past. And if it's true what you said, that the collapse knocks human advancement down a few ages, it's also possible that outdated perspectives suddenly won't be so outdated anymore.
Depends on the people involved. The early feminist movement was more about women standing up, and being independent. The modern day feminist movement is about man hating, and bitching about how men are keeping women down (look at gamergate). Most of the feminist followers are morons who blame all of their troubles on men.
lol... You should checkout out "Are these quotes from feminist, or storm front (White supremacy group)." You might be surprised