It must not be Duncan.
I decided to make yet another thread regarding the traitor because frankly, I just don't think enough active forum members are seeing things very clearly. This is a direct copy/paste of a reply I made to a thread stating Royland isn't the traitor, and I think it's detailed enough to start a discussion about it as it discusses more of why Duncan isn't likely the traitor either. See quote below and feel free to leave thoughts or input.
"I also agree about Royland, but feel almost just as passionately about Duncan. Something most people don't realize about Duncan is that he was Lord Gregor Forresters BEST friend through childhood and adulthood. He was castellan of Ironrath, meaning he was entrusted with the governance and defense of the hold in Lord Forresters absence. He was also the ONLY person Lord Forrester trusted with the knowledge of the North Grove. Tell me, why didn't Lord Forrester share this information with his own wife? On top of that, he is putting his nephews life at risk by asking him to abandon the Night's Watch. That is a death sentence, not to mention all the dangers that lie north of the wall. Would he do this to one of his very own family members and convince him "it's for the good of the Forresters" if he had another agenda in mind? Like flip flopping and joining the Whitehills? It is for this reason that I feel it HAS to be Maester Ortengryn or Lady Forrester. Ortengryn less so, simply because aside from "sitting pretty" he doesn't really have a motive other than survival. Lady Forrester has motive. The Whitehills have her "baby," her youngest son, and could be very well manipulating her by threatening his safety. So many say that she could easily tell Rodrik and they could use the situation to their advantage and feed Ludd Whitehill false info while planning a different strategy, however, when you're blackmailing someone, you take into account the idea of them lying to or tricking you and you go to great measures to ensure they know the consequences of such acts. The consequence of Lady Forrester sharing Ludd Whitehills plan with Rodrick could be Ryon's death.
Multiple times, she has done "what she felt was best" behind the backs of her family members. Two times we've seen her act behind the scenes against two different Lords. With Ethan as Lord, she instructed Malcom to go get Asher. Had Malcom not informed Ethan, he would've probably never known about it. With Rodrick as Lord, she sent a raven to Ludd Whitehill asking for Ryon to be allowed to attend the funeral.
Twice, she went behind the backs of the LORD of Ironrath, both of them being her sons, because she was looking out for the best interests of her families and OTHER sons. Both times, she had the opportunity to consult said Lord/son before going through with the plan.
The way she acted at the funeral when she went on her whole "kill, kill all the Whitehills. Make them pay," to me didn't convey strength. It conveyed weakness, instability, and sheer hate without the slightest inclination of logic. She obviously hates them, and what better reason to hate someone so passionately that you would ask your own child to murder an entire family then being blackmailed with the betrayal of one son over the life of another?
She just lost a husband, she just lost a son, she is already traumatized due to having lost her entire family in the past...
It HAS to be Lady Forrester. Anyone else, aside from Ortengrynn, who if he is doing it for his own survival simply isn't that smart(and he's a doctor, so I wouldn't put his intelligence into question) because he's not a person of interest, they'd have no real reason to kill him but more likely utilize his skill if it came down to all out war, would be illogical and a slap in the face.
Let's not forget a few other details:
- The traitor is communicating with the Whitehills via raven(Lady Forrester has already sent ravens to the Whitehills).
- Lady Forrester has an interesting relationship with Ludd Whitehill, one that is unknown, as portrayed by the way he acts when she confronts him. Perhaps the blackmail is related to a certain secret she might have, that Ludd might know about. Affair? Perhaps Asher(as mentioned in a theory thread that I liked recently) is Ludd's, not Gregors, and that's the REAL reason she wanted Asher back so badly/sent him away in the first place?.
- Lady Forrester has an interesting reaction when you meet her after your meeting with Gwynn. If you pay close attention, you can see that she is upset with the idea of you meeting with Gwynn, likely because of her hate and dislike for the Whitehills. But her reaction changes when you mention that Gwynn told you there is a traitor. She actually seems a bit startled and worried. While this could arguably be a normal reaction to such an occurance... if she trusts Gwynn Whitehill so little, as she has already conveyed previously, why is she so quick to accept the idea that Gwynn was telling the truth about the traitor? So much so that she immediately jumps to NAMING potential suspects aside from herself?
Start paying attention to detail, people. Too many times have I seen Duncan accused of being the traitor, when there is so much more evidence pointing to it being Lady Forrester, and so little evidence pointing towards anyone else(Ortengrynn, Royland, Talia[lulz])"
Comments
THANK YOU! I've literally posted so many times about it being Lady Forrester and having people tell me that it's not legit because it just doesn't make sense. I'm going to copy and paste my previous posts, since I can actually share my thoughts on the matter here...
I watched the gameplay for if you tell Lady Forrester about the traitor, and she says a couple of things that seem strange to me.
1.) "What about Duncan?": She points him out because in the play-through I watched, he was the one who wasn't chosen as sentinel. That means that if Royland wasn't picked, she's going to throw Royland under the bus. In my mind, that makes it difficult to have either of them be the traitor just because it's something that will change depending on your choices and that won't be consistent enough with the later episodes. What I mean is that (unless no matter who you bring up in the discussion matters which is likely), if you chose Duncan for the sentinel than Royland would be the traitor and vice versa. That's too difficult to put in the game because for the rest of the episodes, you'd have one character gone for the rest of the season but it would change depending on who the traitor was. It has to be the same person no matter who you chose as sentinel.
2.) "It's bad enough having their soldiers in our house. But if you won't be open with me, then our problems run deeper.": This is a strange way to put it for me. Instead of outright saying, I need you to be honest with me, she brings up the influence of the soldiers. Their presence is obvious. It's literally all around you- the destruction that they've caused. Why bring it up? Why bring up multiple times throughout this conversation Gryff, the Whitehills, and then the soldiers? I personally think that it's eating her up inside. It would make it worse for her if she were the traitor, just because she'd have to submit information to them while witnessing all the things that they're doing to her family.
3.) "Then don't kneel.": Another time where she's said to stay up. Thank God in the fight (if you choose to stand no matter what), she doesn't say you made the wrong choice BUT she does say, "There will be consequences, my son. We both know that." She doesn't need to throw in that last part. All she has to say is there will be consequences. She's almost giving too much information with her dialogue, in this scene and the tell-her-there's-a-traitor scene. Perhaps it's a writer's mistake, but it's weird to me.
BUT THEN IF YOU DO SUBMIT: She says "You did the right thing, my son. You had to submit." YOU DID THE RIGHT THING! When she tells you to not kneel earlier!
I'm sorry if this all sounds stupid and I've said it multiple times, but there's plenty of evidence right there. Something doesn't add up here. Whether it's just bad character writing between decisions for her or it's that she's the traitor, something's up.
Also, it's very possible that the Whitehills threatened her with Ryon or her families' lives and said that if she didn't reveal everything (including Asher's return), they would kill whoever they needed to until she spilled. Honestly, it's very possible than someone else spilled the beans on that one, just because (as far as I remember) Asher's return to the House was openly discussed in the forest with the rest of the council.
I could be totally wrong about her, but I don't like that her speech doesn't line up with her actions. It's getting worse and worse as the episodes go by. Her being the traitor would clear some of that up more than if she weren't for me. Lady Forrester will do whatever it is she has to do to keep her kids safe- and I don't think that trading information in exchange for their safety is excluded here. If she knew that it was the only option that she had available to guarantee that nothing would happen to her family, I think she would take it. Maybe others believe that she wouldn't, but I personally do.
She points at Royland if he wasn't choosin sentinel.....and I can't believe if it was lady forrester is the traitor....if she was I will go mind BLOWN
I feel that a majority of people's minds will be blown if it turns out to be her. I KNEW she pointed out Royland if he wasn't picked! Thank you for mentioning that because that only adds to my suspicion that it's her. Throwing other people under the bus (and not just Duncan) is just one more reason as to why it could be her... She's always been my top pick. The second I heard there was a traitor, my mind went to her. Everyone else's theories (as in Royland or the Maester) are too complicated or they're just too obvious.
At first, I didn't think it was her. To be honest though, the bottom line is that the 'Traitor' story arc of the game was horribly written if it turns out to be anyone but her. Duncan and Royland have no motive, and while the Maester does he seems to be a tad too obvious... I mean, if it is the Maester I guess it wouldn't be as bad but it is still rather anticlimatic.
I really hope it IS Lady Forrester.
i used to think it was duncan but then i remembered that lord forrester trusted duncan with the north grove so now im pretty sure its lady forrester.
CANT WAIT TILL EPISODE 4!!!
I have been positive that it was Lady Forrester since the first. Just because of the weird probing questions both her and the Maester ask Gared when he returns from the Red Wedding, and the fact that Lord Gregor didn't trust her enough to send the message to Her.
I don't think Lady Forrester would put her family and house in danger like that. Honestly, her betraying her own family, which she cares about so much, would be so wildly out of character and STUPID. In what universe would she willingly go against her family like that, even with Ryon to consider?
I'm honestly thinking it'll be the Maester guy, can't spell his name for the life of me. Duncan said he didn't trust the maester with the information of the North Grove, so that must be something to think about.
No matter who it is, it seems, some people on here are gonna say it was out of character for them.
It's not so much as putting her family in danger as it is giving the Whitehills enough information to please them into not harming Ryon, while still not giving them enough to be able to obliterate the Forrester house. Sure, it ruins the plan you come up with at the beginning of Ep. 3, but either way you went they were both kind of far fetched plans to begin with...
How is it out of character? What characterization have we had with Momma Forrester that doesn't just reiterate the fact that she will do anything to protect her family? It's still in character, because she is so sick with anxiety over Ryon that she will do everything in her power to keep him safe. Think about her hatred for the Whitehills: she distrusts all of them, even Gwyn (who we as the players have seen another, softer side to.) She hates them, and thinks they are all monsters, so she has to cope with them out of fear that they will in-turn be monsters to Ryon.
This is where I disagree with you the most. The irony in her having to betray one member of her family in order to keep another member of her family safe is, in my own opinion, amazing storytelling. It gets me so conflicted, and assuming that she is indeed the traitor, is great characterization in itself and allows for the story to move on and flow in an interesting way.
She already HAS exhibited a willingness to go behind her sons backs, to do whatever it is that SHE thinks is best - With no intentions of telling them until she has been Caught in the action, or something happens to out her in her machinations.
She could very well be being manipulated or threatened into it out of fear for her family and Ryon's life. Or she could have lost her everlovin' mind when she realized that what happened to her Father's House was about to happen again, and decided she would Never let it happen again - no matter what she had to do ( which she Has stated herself ).
I don't think it would be out of character at all, certainly no more so than Catelyn Stark's actions were to her character.
The reason I did it hard to believe it's her is because of her live for Ryon. She's a family woman.
If she was to submit to the Whitehills, she if effectively sacrificing TWO sons to save one. Two sons who may, just may be able to save their house. To bow to the Whitehills, thus dooming Rodrik and Asher to almost certain death (you really think they'd let them live?) to save a 4th born son who is of no use when it comes to protecting their house, seems ridiculous to me. Why would she let two die to get one back?
I'm convinced it's Duncan. People trust him because we were told to. Because Gregor did but IMO that makes him the most likely traitor, because we think he's on our side, because we were told, so we don't look at him like the rest.
The maestor makes sense, their doesnt have to be some massive twist which makes the mother do something so reckless and stupid and not tell the others about it. She works more than Duncan or Royland but still it would still be a huge jump in character and would make her even more similar to catelyn. If its not the maestor what is the point in his character? Just to be a red herring?
If the characters all suspected the maestor I would agree but they dont.
What if its Rodrik? dunn dunn dunnnnnnnnnn
No shit,Sherlock
What if it was Ethan ?
???
This whole traitor business has made me paranoid and has given me trust issues....
Agreed. At this point, if it's anyone but her I will be sincerely disappointed.
Does anyone know if Whitehill said anything about the north grove when he was revealing all our plans, if you told anyone but Duncan? I'm pretty sure he said nothing about it in my play through and Duncans the only person who knows other than Gared at this point.
No the Whitehills never mention the North Grove no matter what.
I'm telling you it's either Talia or Sera who's the traitor.
Talia because she wants to get revenge for Ethan
Sera because we learned she has an issue with stealing things and sneaking around. Wouldn't be surprised if she told Cersi about Margery's plan to help Mira's family which caused Damian to try and kill her.
Aside from everything that points to her the idea that it's her just feels much more entertaining.
Not sure if you're trolling or not... but if you aren't...
Talia telling the Whitehills of the Forresters plans wouldn't avenge Ethan. You'd have to be nuts to think that.
Sera... doesn't know the Forresters plans which were revealed to Rodrik.
So uh, erm...
I already confirmed I'm not trolling. This is my opinion lol. Can't you respect that friend?
Personally, I think the traitor is the mother.
Talia and Sera aren't even on the council so can't be them.
You can't blame @Ryanoo for thinking that, no offense but most of your posts make me think you're trolling but I'm not entirely sure most of the time
okay
i've already said that in other posts but i will repeat it, i think it is an interresting idea. There is no evidence that Ludd and Gryff actually know about the Forresters plan (to either save Ryon or take back Ironrath). The only one who surelly knows about it is Gwyn. So i was thinking maybe it's all part of a plan between Gwyn and Duncan. They both seem to want peace for their houses and they want to avoid a blood bath. Maybe Duncan trust her(we dont know about Forrester and Whitehill past) and so does Gwyn. Maybe Duncan thinks Rodrick will likely want revenge for all Forresters deaths and he wants to avoid that. Both seems to have no problem taking the iniciative (telling Rodrick about Ryon, sending Gared to the Wall and then asking him to leave the Night's Watch, planning the meeting). That way Duncan woudlnt be a traitor. Another thing important to me is that the traitor being the Maester seems way to obvious to me and Lady Forrester seems to hate way the Whitehills too far to make this (even with Ryon's life in their hands)