OR it did work considering he said Mike cut his arm off, I think Reggie was shown armless mainly to try and trick people into thinking that cutting Sarita's arm off would work.
Kenny is also unnecessarily harsh towards him, and he's meant to be on the side of the good guys. Almost as if his disability makes him a tr… moreickster of some sort, like he has something to hide from the group in spite of literally risking his limb to get said group out the first time. Kinda foreshadows Arvo's role in Episode 4 and 5, doesn't it?
Given that the amount of times amputation works for bite victims in the games, which is basically zero, I'm inclined to believe that Carver cut off his arm as punishment for helping Carlos' group escape in the past.
Pity that trick had got Sarita killed off when keeping her alive would have added some diversity in the cast...had she actually been given something do and not became just another Katjaa.
OR it did work considering he said Mike cut his arm off, I think Reggie was shown armless mainly to try and trick people into thinking that cutting Sarita's arm off would work.
Pity that trick had got Sarita killed off when keeping her alive would have added some diversity in the cast...had she actually been given something do and not became just another Katjaa.
Trying to help people isn't weakness. Also, you seem to just hate too much. I like that the group was flawed and weren't all "Oh, a little g… moreirl, how cute, let's all become her knights in shining armour" and trust took longer. Also, what can Nick do besides say sorry and watch your back? Saying sorry for almost shooting someone, no matter how stupid it was, takes guts. It really does
I already have, the same way I forgave Lee for killing the senator out of jealousy, how I forgave Clementine for falling for a complete stranger's words and running away causing Lee to get bit, the same way I forgave Kenny for murdering Larry etc.
Sarita was like a cheaper version of Katjaa, both died for Kenny's development, but Katjaa was also a character of her own. We got to talk to her and find out her opinions and feelings, her backstory, and when she committed suicide, I felt a deep loss at her death.
Instead of being a satellite love interest for Kenny, they could have fleshed out the conflict between the two as seen in episode 2, but Sarita dies before there's a chance to do that. Even during her death scene, it's clear that the writers think very little of her. If Clem kills the walker, Kenny's the one we have to feel bad for, not the woman who is actually dying right in front of us, not even given the chance to speak. And if you chop her arm off her death is especially violent and she is laying there suffering, but all the focus is still on poor old Kenny losing more of his family.
"I guess losing an arm makes you a bit weird" or something - I suppose the writer doesn't realize that Kenny was actually insulting Lee by saying that.
Carver seems capable of amputating people, but I think it's more a case of bad writing that makes it plausible that Reggie was lying. After all, Mike never actually confirms that he amputated Reggie's arm and nobody aside from Clem seems to pay attention to him being an amputee.
Kenny is also unnecessarily harsh towards him, and he's meant to be on the side of the good guys. Almost as if his disability makes him a tr… moreickster of some sort, like he has something to hide from the group in spite of literally risking his limb to get said group out the first time. Kinda foreshadows Arvo's role in Episode 4 and 5, doesn't it?
Given that the amount of times amputation works for bite victims in the games, which is basically zero, I'm inclined to believe that Carver cut off his arm as punishment for helping Carlos' group escape in the past.
I doubt Kenny actually said that just to spit on Lee's grave, but it does make we wonder why he didn't realise that he just had an 'open mouth, insert foot' moment in front of Clementine.
"I guess losing an arm makes you a bit weird" or something - I suppose the writer doesn't realize that Kenny was actually insulting Lee by s… moreaying that.
Carver seems capable of amputating people, but I think it's more a case of bad writing that makes it plausible that Reggie was lying. After all, Mike never actually confirms that he amputated Reggie's arm and nobody aside from Clem seems to pay attention to him being an amputee.
Didn't get the same moral as you. Crawford disallowed children to exist. Crawford exterminated or shunned patients who had cancer. Sarah couldn't be convinced to get up from the floor to save herself from being eaten. Season 1 gave Lee plenty of opportunity to teach Clem good morals with Crawford as an extreme case of evil, but what made Season 2 interesting was that they allowed common sense to dictate just how far one's empathy can go for someone that was so overprotected from the world that they couldn't/wouldn't use their healthy legs to stand up and run.
Nice drawing a parallel, there, but Sarah and Nick were on very different levels.
Amazed that this thread's been brought back from the dead.
I disagree about Season 2 being dictated by 'common sense' - whose idea of common sense are we talking about? Some grim-dark, selective definition which excuses irrational actions like throwing a shrieking tantrum in the middle of a zombie horde or having sex with a man right when he should be looking after a pregnant woman? The game FORCES Clem to "empathize" with frankly unsympathetic characters, while convincing her that traumatized girls are unworthy of aid.
Didn't get the same moral as you. Crawford disallowed children to exist. Crawford exterminated or shunned patients who had cancer. Sarah cou… moreldn't be convinced to get up from the floor to save herself from being eaten. Season 1 gave Lee plenty of opportunity to teach Clem good morals with Crawford as an extreme case of evil, but what made Season 2 interesting was that they allowed common sense to dictate just how far one's empathy can go for someone that was so overprotected from the world that they couldn't/wouldn't use their healthy legs to stand up and run.
Nice drawing a parallel, there, but Sarah and Nick were on very different levels.
I liked Sarah, too, and wanted her to live, but Jane had it right. Ever get close to someone that is truly dying and wanting to die? If not, I hope you never do. It's extremely painful. But it does happen, and sometimes art has to try to reach for that in some way.
This game sucked in ways that all in this genre, do: it's more story than choose-your-own adventure. Can't fault you for being disappointed about how that forced you into paths that you didn't want.
As far as political statements, you've lost me. I don't know enough about libertarianism to make a case either way. What did you think when Walt started, briefly, talking about politics?
Amazed that this thread's been brought back from the dead.
I disagree about Season 2 being dictated by 'common sense' - whose idea of com… moremon sense are we talking about? Some grim-dark, selective definition which excuses irrational actions like throwing a shrieking tantrum in the middle of a zombie horde or having sex with a man right when he should be looking after a pregnant woman? The game FORCES Clem to "empathize" with frankly unsympathetic characters, while convincing her that traumatized girls are unworthy of aid.
Fuck that pseudo-libertarian garbage.
Oh, I've met depressed people and I've known ACTUAL DYING PEOPLE. There's a big difference between depression temporarily screwing up one's rationality and actually being crippled/paralyzed/physically disabled. Don't pretend that Amid The Ruins is a particularly insightful or even brave attempt to tackle the issue of suicide - it's a version written by fucking hacks.
A thread unlocked is never post-hoc'd.
I liked Sarah, too, and wanted her to live, but Jane had it right. Ever get close to someone that … moreis truly dying and wanting to die? If not, I hope you never do. It's extremely painful. But it does happen, and sometimes art has to try to reach for that in some way.
This game sucked in ways that all in this genre, do: it's more story than choose-your-own adventure. Can't fault you for being disappointed about how that forced you into paths that you didn't want.
As far as political statements, you've lost me. I don't know enough about libertarianism to make a case either way. What did you think when Walt started, briefly, talking about politics?
But someone can be actually dying without being crippled/paralyzed/physically disabled. They can just be in pain, physically or emotionally, and do not want to experience it anymore.
As far as suicide, I don't think Sarah wanted to die, exactly, but she didn't seem to want to meet the minimum requirements for living, either. That is what makes it so painful. If she had just asked to be shot, I doubt it would have had much of an emotional impact as what happened in the story.
If you know of an adventure game that is kind of like this (interactive, sort of, while telling a reasonably long story) that doesn't have hack writing, please tell me about it. I live for this stuff, sometimes. I am not a shoot-em-up game player at all.
Oh, I've met depressed people and I've known ACTUAL DYING PEOPLE. There's a big difference between depression temporarily screwing up one's… more rationality and actually being crippled/paralyzed/physically disabled. Don't pretend that Amid The Ruins is a particularly insightful or even brave attempt to tackle the issue of suicide - it's a version written by fucking hacks.
Oh crap, I didn't notice that. I guess that lends credence to those that say Nick's death at the hands of Walter is canon. Getting Nick to admit to Walter what he did and Walter forgiving him was one of my happiest moments in the game.
Nick was a liability and a little trigger happy by the looks of it. He was definitely more interesting 2nd time I played it, but I wouldn't put him on the same level as Kenny or Clementine. Sarah was a kid that was basically terrified of everything and anything. There isn't really much ways she could have redeemed herself, unless she had a drastic personality change. The characters aren't really similar imo. Maybe they were both killed off too soon.
They give Nick some character development in Episode 2 but then made him a fucking retard by shooting Matthew and then giving him the possibility to die later on in Episode 2 or just be a useless character in Episode 3 and become a zombie in Episode 4. I predicted that he'll die in Episode 4 and I'm not that surprised since this is TellTale we are talking.
And what exactly did Jane do to her sister? She told us that she couldn't have made her jump, throw her, or carry her. What would you have wanted her to do?
I imagine it was a sequence similar to the Sarah scene in the trailer where the zombies were pretty much nipping at their heels. Not everyone can go from trying to save their family member to immediately mercy-killing them in a split second decision. I mean, Kenny and Katjaa let Duck suffer for like half a day before finally putting him out of his misery.
Sarita was like a cheaper version of Katjaa, both died for Kenny's development, but Katjaa was also a character of her own. We got to talk t… moreo her and find out her opinions and feelings, her backstory, and when she committed suicide, I felt a deep loss at her death.
Instead of being a satellite love interest for Kenny, they could have fleshed out the conflict between the two as seen in episode 2, but Sarita dies before there's a chance to do that. Even during her death scene, it's clear that the writers think very little of her. If Clem kills the walker, Kenny's the one we have to feel bad for, not the woman who is actually dying right in front of us, not even given the chance to speak. And if you chop her arm off her death is especially violent and she is laying there suffering, but all the focus is still on poor old Kenny losing more of his family.
I'm always rather curious about the "pointless slaughter of characters" ragestorm about S2EP4 when what everyone generally considers the highwater mark of the first season, EP3, disposes of four characters, two of whom had been crucial to the narrative to that point, in literally twenty minutes.
Honestly, I'm glad Telltale doesn't give in to the internet nerd-rage the way the show does where they are terrified to kill any fan favorites. I like it. It really recreates the feel of the comics where people die for stupid, pointless reasons constantly.
I'd also point out that Nick disappearing from the storyline for the most part is almost identical to what happens to Doug or Carley in Season One. They get about fifteen minutes of screen time in EP2 and another fifteen in EP3.
The death/leaving of the four characters worked well in S1:EP3, because their absence made an impact on many characters and had continued to do so in future episodes in some form. Kenny continues to grieve over Katjaa and Duck's death, the death of Carley/Doug and Lilly's departure also affects Clementine, Ben, and Kenny in the next episode, and the RV incident is also a topic that can be explored during the discussion with The Stranger.
Sarita, Nick, and Sarah dies, and their death makes little to no impact on their friends, and thus the narrative itself. Sarita dies either inside or outside the hoard, and only Kenny mourns for her for the majority of the episode due to being the only one who knew her as the others barely interacts with Sarita...and then promptly forgets about her in the final episode, even in his final moments when he reminiscences about Katjaa and Duck, but Sarita is never mentioned.
Nick and Sarah's deaths barely affects the Cabin Group in spite of being among each other for some time, which is particularly awkward when Nick is supposed to be Luke's childhood friend of twenty years, and his death doesn't affect Luke's character in the slightest. Sarah second death is notoriously uncomfortable to some due to how everyone doesn't seem to acknowledge that an innocent child had just brutally died a few feet away from them, and are too busy cooing over the new baby who was just born.
The deaths in Season 2 lacked the meaningful impact of Season 1 when a main character died, and thus it would explain why some of the fandom were displeased with the treatment of Sarita, Nick, and Sarah, as they were considered to be unceremoniously and unreasonably tossed out of the story with little justification to back up the narrative.
I'm always rather curious about the "pointless slaughter of characters" ragestorm about S2EP4 when what everyone generally considers the hig… morehwater mark of the first season, EP3, disposes of four characters, two of whom had been crucial to the narrative to that point, in literally twenty minutes.
Honestly, I'm glad Telltale doesn't give in to the internet nerd-rage the way the show does where they are terrified to kill any fan favorites. I like it. It really recreates the feel of the comics where people die for stupid, pointless reasons constantly.
Meh. A person like Sarah wouldn't survive in that world. She couldn't accept the death of her father, and refused to adapt. Her character is understandable, your suppose to pity her and reconcile the reality of an apocalyptic situation. You can't save everyone, and people who outright give up either because they can't or won't adapt will be the first to go.
This is a pretty common theme in post apocalyptic stories. Some people want to die with their boots on, and some people would rather just die because they don't want to live anymore. It's a pretty normal trope in this genre.
I think if we had more character development with everyone else and we learned more about the cabin group, then I would have had less of a problem with them dieing so suddenly. They barely got any lines if they don't die the "canon" way and that is a problem.
I wish we coulda talked to Nick about the Walter convo, or extra convos at Howes and even between action scenes. I never really felt that I should hate Nick or Sarah but I was convinced that they had no chance of surviving, which sucks but I understand the idea. I just wish one of them coulda redeemed themselves, especially Nick.
They kept pushing Becca on us because of the baby, and I kinda wish she had her baby and died in episode 3.
Especially Doug, Carley had a quick storyline that actually effected the plot, while Doug was working and being handy. I wish Doug had a storyline, maybe researching walkers, or somethin at least
I'd also point out that Nick disappearing from the storyline for the most part is almost identical to what happens to Doug or Carley in Season One. They get about fifteen minutes of screen time in EP2 and another fifteen in EP3.
I think the main problem with season 2 was that once a character was saved and therefore doomed, it was as if that character was then forgotten about. Alvin, Nick and Sarah all get very little screen time/lines after you save them the first time. I get that that makes the coding easier but it kinda voids the decision to save them. Carley, Ben and even Omid when he hurt his leg, all got a decent amount of screen time considering so it seems a bit of a cop out to not do the same for season 2 epesically as we didn't know the season 2 characters aswell.
I wasn't really that fussed about Nick's character but he deserved more than an off screen death stuck in a fence after Walter spared his life. I liked Sarah -Yes she was clingy and could be annoying but I understood why she was that way- and was looking forward to seeing her grow and develop under Clems guidance -she's been sheltered but 3 years older than Clem. Clem had to grow up fast so there's no reason Sarah couldn't especially with Clem as her teacher- but sadly she is never given that chance. Alvin is basically locked in an office straight away and you barely see him for the rest of the episode until he sacrifies himself to help you escape. It's a heoric death but it makes saving him seem like that is literally his only purpose.
Comments
Hate them? Didn't work out. I've lost my interest in these characters around third ep.
Know this song?
"To know, To know, know, know him Is to love, love, love him.. "
Or hate him. I did not get a chance to know them.
OR it did work considering he said Mike cut his arm off, I think Reggie was shown armless mainly to try and trick people into thinking that cutting Sarita's arm off would work.
Pity that trick had got Sarita killed off when keeping her alive would have added some diversity in the cast...had she actually been given something do and not became just another Katjaa.
She wasn't as big as Katjaa, she was just there for Kenny to have a reason to lose his wits.
Not a bad thing since doug was one of my fav TWD characters ever, im gonna be an ass to her even 2 years after what she did
So are you gonna forgive Lilly when she apoligizes for shooting Carley/Doug?
I already have, the same way I forgave Lee for killing the senator out of jealousy, how I forgave Clementine for falling for a complete stranger's words and running away causing Lee to get bit, the same way I forgave Kenny for murdering Larry etc.
Sarita was like a cheaper version of Katjaa, both died for Kenny's development, but Katjaa was also a character of her own. We got to talk to her and find out her opinions and feelings, her backstory, and when she committed suicide, I felt a deep loss at her death.
Instead of being a satellite love interest for Kenny, they could have fleshed out the conflict between the two as seen in episode 2, but Sarita dies before there's a chance to do that. Even during her death scene, it's clear that the writers think very little of her. If Clem kills the walker, Kenny's the one we have to feel bad for, not the woman who is actually dying right in front of us, not even given the chance to speak. And if you chop her arm off her death is especially violent and she is laying there suffering, but all the focus is still on poor old Kenny losing more of his family.
"I guess losing an arm makes you a bit weird" or something - I suppose the writer doesn't realize that Kenny was actually insulting Lee by saying that.
Carver seems capable of amputating people, but I think it's more a case of bad writing that makes it plausible that Reggie was lying. After all, Mike never actually confirms that he amputated Reggie's arm and nobody aside from Clem seems to pay attention to him being an amputee.
I doubt Kenny actually said that just to spit on Lee's grave, but it does make we wonder why he didn't realise that he just had an 'open mouth, insert foot' moment in front of Clementine.
Didn't get the same moral as you. Crawford disallowed children to exist. Crawford exterminated or shunned patients who had cancer. Sarah couldn't be convinced to get up from the floor to save herself from being eaten. Season 1 gave Lee plenty of opportunity to teach Clem good morals with Crawford as an extreme case of evil, but what made Season 2 interesting was that they allowed common sense to dictate just how far one's empathy can go for someone that was so overprotected from the world that they couldn't/wouldn't use their healthy legs to stand up and run.
Nice drawing a parallel, there, but Sarah and Nick were on very different levels.
Amazed that this thread's been brought back from the dead.
I disagree about Season 2 being dictated by 'common sense' - whose idea of common sense are we talking about? Some grim-dark, selective definition which excuses irrational actions like throwing a shrieking tantrum in the middle of a zombie horde or having sex with a man right when he should be looking after a pregnant woman? The game FORCES Clem to "empathize" with frankly unsympathetic characters, while convincing her that traumatized girls are unworthy of aid.
Fuck that pseudo-libertarian garbage.
A thread unlocked is never post-hoc'd.
I liked Sarah, too, and wanted her to live, but Jane had it right. Ever get close to someone that is truly dying and wanting to die? If not, I hope you never do. It's extremely painful. But it does happen, and sometimes art has to try to reach for that in some way.
This game sucked in ways that all in this genre, do: it's more story than choose-your-own adventure. Can't fault you for being disappointed about how that forced you into paths that you didn't want.
As far as political statements, you've lost me. I don't know enough about libertarianism to make a case either way. What did you think when Walt started, briefly, talking about politics?
[removed]
Oh, I've met depressed people and I've known ACTUAL DYING PEOPLE. There's a big difference between depression temporarily screwing up one's rationality and actually being crippled/paralyzed/physically disabled. Don't pretend that Amid The Ruins is a particularly insightful or even brave attempt to tackle the issue of suicide - it's a version written by fucking hacks.
They also recycled Nicks death wound. He has a a wound on his neck in the exact same place he was bit in Episode 2
But someone can be actually dying without being crippled/paralyzed/physically disabled. They can just be in pain, physically or emotionally, and do not want to experience it anymore.
As far as suicide, I don't think Sarah wanted to die, exactly, but she didn't seem to want to meet the minimum requirements for living, either. That is what makes it so painful. If she had just asked to be shot, I doubt it would have had much of an emotional impact as what happened in the story.
If you know of an adventure game that is kind of like this (interactive, sort of, while telling a reasonably long story) that doesn't have hack writing, please tell me about it. I live for this stuff, sometimes. I am not a shoot-em-up game player at all.
I didn't notice that. He was bitten earlier in the neck but didn't turn? Maybe I missed what happened to him at the creek where Pete was bitten.
Also where did his body go when Carver captured the group? Carver didn't even find him
Oh crap, I didn't notice that. I guess that lends credence to those that say Nick's death at the hands of Walter is canon. Getting Nick to admit to Walter what he did and Walter forgiving him was one of my happiest moments in the game.
He's talking about if you let Walter kill him, the zombie bites his neck and he has the same wound.
Nick was a liability and a little trigger happy by the looks of it. He was definitely more interesting 2nd time I played it, but I wouldn't put him on the same level as Kenny or Clementine. Sarah was a kid that was basically terrified of everything and anything. There isn't really much ways she could have redeemed herself, unless she had a drastic personality change. The characters aren't really similar imo. Maybe they were both killed off too soon.
They give Nick some character development in Episode 2 but then made him a fucking retard by shooting Matthew and then giving him the possibility to die later on in Episode 2 or just be a useless character in Episode 3 and become a zombie in Episode 4. I predicted that he'll die in Episode 4 and I'm not that surprised since this is TellTale we are talking.
My point exactly. It's as if he was bound to get bit by the neck. Season 3 might have no hope with this bullshit going about!!
For starters, Jane didn't even put her sister 'out of her misery'. She left her to suffer and get eaten alive.
I imagine it was a sequence similar to the Sarah scene in the trailer where the zombies were pretty much nipping at their heels. Not everyone can go from trying to save their family member to immediately mercy-killing them in a split second decision. I mean, Kenny and Katjaa let Duck suffer for like half a day before finally putting him out of his misery.
She is basically cheaper version of Katjaa with Duck's fate. (bitten by zombie, left to turn or killed by Kenny/Protagonist.)
I'm always rather curious about the "pointless slaughter of characters" ragestorm about S2EP4 when what everyone generally considers the highwater mark of the first season, EP3, disposes of four characters, two of whom had been crucial to the narrative to that point, in literally twenty minutes.
Honestly, I'm glad Telltale doesn't give in to the internet nerd-rage the way the show does where they are terrified to kill any fan favorites. I like it. It really recreates the feel of the comics where people die for stupid, pointless reasons constantly.
I'd also point out that Nick disappearing from the storyline for the most part is almost identical to what happens to Doug or Carley in Season One. They get about fifteen minutes of screen time in EP2 and another fifteen in EP3.
The death/leaving of the four characters worked well in S1:EP3, because their absence made an impact on many characters and had continued to do so in future episodes in some form. Kenny continues to grieve over Katjaa and Duck's death, the death of Carley/Doug and Lilly's departure also affects Clementine, Ben, and Kenny in the next episode, and the RV incident is also a topic that can be explored during the discussion with The Stranger.
Sarita, Nick, and Sarah dies, and their death makes little to no impact on their friends, and thus the narrative itself. Sarita dies either inside or outside the hoard, and only Kenny mourns for her for the majority of the episode due to being the only one who knew her as the others barely interacts with Sarita...and then promptly forgets about her in the final episode, even in his final moments when he reminiscences about Katjaa and Duck, but Sarita is never mentioned.
Nick and Sarah's deaths barely affects the Cabin Group in spite of being among each other for some time, which is particularly awkward when Nick is supposed to be Luke's childhood friend of twenty years, and his death doesn't affect Luke's character in the slightest. Sarah second death is notoriously uncomfortable to some due to how everyone doesn't seem to acknowledge that an innocent child had just brutally died a few feet away from them, and are too busy cooing over the new baby who was just born.
The deaths in Season 2 lacked the meaningful impact of Season 1 when a main character died, and thus it would explain why some of the fandom were displeased with the treatment of Sarita, Nick, and Sarah, as they were considered to be unceremoniously and unreasonably tossed out of the story with little justification to back up the narrative.
Meh. A person like Sarah wouldn't survive in that world. She couldn't accept the death of her father, and refused to adapt. Her character is understandable, your suppose to pity her and reconcile the reality of an apocalyptic situation. You can't save everyone, and people who outright give up either because they can't or won't adapt will be the first to go.
This is a pretty common theme in post apocalyptic stories. Some people want to die with their boots on, and some people would rather just die because they don't want to live anymore. It's a pretty normal trope in this genre.
I think if we had more character development with everyone else and we learned more about the cabin group, then I would have had less of a problem with them dieing so suddenly. They barely got any lines if they don't die the "canon" way and that is a problem.
I wish we coulda talked to Nick about the Walter convo, or extra convos at Howes and even between action scenes. I never really felt that I should hate Nick or Sarah but I was convinced that they had no chance of surviving, which sucks but I understand the idea. I just wish one of them coulda redeemed themselves, especially Nick.
They kept pushing Becca on us because of the baby, and I kinda wish she had her baby and died in episode 3.
Especially Doug, Carley had a quick storyline that actually effected the plot, while Doug was working and being handy. I wish Doug had a storyline, maybe researching walkers, or somethin at least
I think the main problem with season 2 was that once a character was saved and therefore doomed, it was as if that character was then forgotten about. Alvin, Nick and Sarah all get very little screen time/lines after you save them the first time. I get that that makes the coding easier but it kinda voids the decision to save them. Carley, Ben and even Omid when he hurt his leg, all got a decent amount of screen time considering so it seems a bit of a cop out to not do the same for season 2 epesically as we didn't know the season 2 characters aswell.
I wasn't really that fussed about Nick's character but he deserved more than an off screen death stuck in a fence after Walter spared his life. I liked Sarah -Yes she was clingy and could be annoying but I understood why she was that way- and was looking forward to seeing her grow and develop under Clems guidance -she's been sheltered but 3 years older than Clem. Clem had to grow up fast so there's no reason Sarah couldn't especially with Clem as her teacher- but sadly she is never given that chance. Alvin is basically locked in an office straight away and you barely see him for the rest of the episode until he sacrifies himself to help you escape. It's a heoric death but it makes saving him seem like that is literally his only purpose.