Possible evidence which shows Maester Ortengryns' innocence?
I played through the 4 episodes again recently and may have found something that proves the Maesters' innocence if you take a few things into account.
The main evidence I'm showing is at the end of episode 2, which is at the funeral of Gregor and Ethan:
Notice that Maester Ortengryn isn't at the funeral? All the attendees include Rodrik, Talia, Elissa, Duncan, Royland, a few guards and determinately/temporarily Gwyn/Ryon, who I'm not going to count because TT do a poor job of following through determinant choices anyway. Now you might be thinking that the fact that he doesn't attend the funeral is fairly suspicious in itself and could show a rooted resentment between him and the Forresters. However, the Maester is from The Vale, a kingdom which is of the Faith of the Seven unlike the Forresters who worship the Old Gods. I'm unsure of funeral rites or differences between the two religions but I suppose it makes sense for someone who doesn't follow the Old Gods to take part in the funeral.
Now fast forward to episode 4 when Ramsay visits again.
Ramsay mentions the song and that he heard about it. From who? As seen above, the Maester clearly did not attend the funeral.
Obviously this suggests that whoever the traitor is does have a link with Ramsay, whether through the Whitehills or just independently, but there isn't any clear evidence which shows this. But again, how did Ramsay know about the song? There were literally a handful of attendees. If you continue to believe the Maester is guilty, I guess it's possible that someone, another councillor, told the Maester about the song, prompting him to inform Ramsay/the Whitehills about it then. However, why would the Maester find that important, especially if he never heard it himself and as such wasn't certain that the song even happened or existed? In all of the scenes where the song is mentioned or sang, the Maester isn't present in any of them: the reuniting scene with Talia and Rodrik where it's first mentioned, the council scene where only Rodrik, Talia and Elissa are and the funeral itself.
Finally, the only other annoyingly convoluted but possible explanation by which Ramsay found out would be that he found out from some of the random guards which were at the funeral or that the guards spread the word about the song. This is problematic through many ways, like for one, why would you believe the small folk and why would they, the small folk, mention it to him/anyone who would tell him such as the Whitehills? Another way he could have extracted the information would be through flaying, in which he may have flayed some of the guards or got the information out of them through other methods in his brief revisit of Ironrath.
I'm going to end this by just saying that beforehand I was firmly in the 'Maester = Traitor' camp, even after he was tortured by Gryff. But now I'm not entirely certain.
So yeah. Thoughts? Any holes in the evidence?
Comments
Hmm, good eye for detail! Technically, one could possibly say that if Ryon shows up (alongside the guards) that the guards probably heard the song, but that's not valid since everyone hears the line about Ramsay mentioning the song anyways irregardless if the Whitehill guards for Ryon attend or not. I've personally been guessing the traitor is Lady Forrester so far.
This is kind of what I'm afraid is the truth, else it discourages detail finding and theory making which GoT thrives on.
Gwyn disappears before they even start burning the bodies. There is an explicit shot of her walking away from the funeral at the time. And the very fact that because this is determinant, I doubt the Whitehill soldiers or Ryon told Ludd who then told Ramsay.
Even if the traitor was at the funeral, why would they include "Talia sang a lovely song" in their reports to Ramsay/Ludd. It's just thrown in to freak us out, cause Ramsay's a creep. Regardless of who the traitor is, they will very likely be doing it out of some semi-good intentioned reason (IE "I thought submitting was the best way to save the house" or "I had to give them something so they'd not hurt Ryon"). Those people would give intel when they had to, to achieve their goal, but they wouldn't report every minor thing to the Whitehills, like what song she sang.
Or, alternatively, it was the determinant who told him. Either Gwyn heard it, came home, told Ludd "She sang a song, father, it was very emotional, be less of a dick" and Ludd went "HAH. You're funny. I'll go tell that one to Ramsay." Or Ryon was there, went back to Highpoint, got one of his "Your family hate you" visits from Ludd and told him "No, they don't, I was at the funeral and heard how much they care for me. Talia sang a lovely song." and Ludd went "I'll go tell Ramsay." Ludd would have no more reason to tell Ramsay than any spy, but it's a reasoning, at least.
Well, really, who would, explicitly, tell Ramsay? No spy or friend (if we can even say Ramsay has friends) would go up to Ramsay and say "Hey, Talia Forrester put together a really nice song for that kid you murdered."
The most likely option is the Forrester troops and smallfolk who were at the funeral heard her and began talking about it with each other as smallfolk usually do. Ironrath isn't that far from the Dreadfort, so I'm sure the rumors and stories of the Forrester Song would have spread quickly enough for Ramsay to overhear. Northerners love a good tale of heroics and honor.
I think the phrase "I hear you've written" is pretty key hear. He doesn't say "I've been told" or anything like that, just "I hear", which implies a more general knowledge sort of thing. It feels like, if Ramsay had gotten someone to snoop on them during the funeral, he'd want to make that obvious to Talia just to rub her face in it like the little crap that he is.
Someone who holds loyalty or gives information to the Boltons might see the song as an affront to them. The song is basically saying 'Ramsay killed my brother in his own home after swearing loyalty/saving me.' If the song were to become popular with small folk or even noblemen, it isn't exactly great to have a song denouncing your deeds being public and giving your house a brutal outlook, especially when Bolton has just been recently been named Warden of the North. And at a time when the Northern lords are so jumpy and edgy at House Bolton, giving them a rallying cry isn't something positive for them.
I do see how the small folk thing makes actual sense though. I probably discredited that part too much in my main post.
The Maester is at the funeral! Look to the left beside the pillar! He is standing right there!
I can't see him?
I imagine word would spread among the Forresters about the song and Ramsay heard about it during his travels.
Surely he wouldn't want to create suspicion that there even is a traitor at Ironrath. What I mean by that is, Ramsay doesn't know that we know that they have a traitor at Ironrath. So by using the general term he isn't, in his mind, giving anything away.
I get that he's a psychopath that doesn't follow conventional logic, but deliberately revealing the possibility of a traitor for the sake of some short term quarrel wouldn't be half as entertaining as some long term strife.
There are three men standing beside the left banner with the tree on it. One is half behind it, the middle one is the maester
Nah I thought that at first but its just a general soldier that looks like him. The clothing is different and is just general Forrester soldier clothes.
That looks nothing like him.
Even if we've guessing the traitor is Lady Forrester I can't and won't believe it, event it'll be true, my personal guess is that isn't any traitor and it was a plot series. The general idea will be what @Wolf6120 said bellow.
Agreed.
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Honestly the Maester being the trader would be very disappointing in my eyes. He's not a very important character and it wouldn't be a shock
They're all dressed like soldiers.
Actually...the Maester does have a tendency to get lost in thought and vocalise these thoughts ("I reckon I'd make a fine swordsman" "Strange that Gregor saved his squire and not his son" etc. etc.) it's his defining character trait, wouldn't be surprised if 'Talia wrote a lovely song' was one of those thoughts
I think having Duncan, Royland or Lady Forrester being the traitor would have to be done in a very well written way and not just for cheap shock factor.
And it better be one of them as well, it'd be too lame to throw in an un-introduced character.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the writers haven't even decided on the traitor, meaning no clues have been left.
LOL I totally thought it was him, they all look the same to me. Big bushy beards and this one was tall and slender(ish) like the master
This is a good point. If he is not a traitor it can be his mother then.
I don't see any problem with this It's still entirely possible the Maester is the traitor. There are clearly guards at the funeral. They heard Talias song and remembered it. It's entirely possible that when Ramasy came to Ironrath one of these guards were captured and forced to give information about what has been going on in Ironrath since Ramasy left. Among the things the guard told Ramasy was "A funeral was held for Ethan. Ryon/Gwyn came to the funeral and Talia sang a song for her dead twin." Ramasy then uses this information to toy with Talia.