Asher / Rodrik Vs Harys... I call bullshit
IceFromIron
Banned
Does anyone else call bullshit on the fact Asher / Rodrik were unable to defeat Harys without getting a sword in the gut, and Lady Forrester killed?
They're both established to be exceptional warriors, and nothing up to that point really establishes Harys to be anything else other than a big armored thug. I mean, he doesn't even dare try to deal with Asher / Rodrik upfront if they stay behind in Episode 5, he has to stab them in the back like a coward (plus he has a huge numbers advantage then). He also deals with the beast by throwing a spear into his back... like a coward. Also, he didn't bother to mount any resistance when the Glenmore Guard showed up in the Great Hall.
I just feel like, if it wasn't for plot, both Asher and Rodrik would clearly understand and be able to defeat Harys with minimal effort. Rodrik's wearing light enough armour to be quite mobile, and Asher even more so, so don't you think they'd just slip all of Harys attacks, wear him down a bit, then close in and shove the Forrester Sword through gaps in his armor? I mean, Asher kills like five armoured Lost Legion soldiers with improvised weapons in Episode 2, Rodrik kills numerous armored Whitehill soldiers (including either Gryff or Ludd) at the Whitehill Encampment, but one big, slow guy? They both get their asses kicked?
I call bull. That fight did them both a big disservice. I can see Rodrik / Asher losing when going up against dozens of Whitehill soldiers while getting shot with crossbows (Episode 5) but just Harys alone? Nah, there's no way that fat-ass could've really stood a chance against Rodrik the Unbroken, or Asher Fucking-Forrester.
Thoughts?
Comments
Harys will always kill her, unless Asher lets her get poisoned first.
If you have Asher in Episode 6, you can choose to posion Ludd (as opposed to ambushing him)
In which case, Lady Forrester will attempt to drink poisoned wine. You can let her, and she will die, or you can stop her. In which case, she will still die -- except later on, when Harys stabs her.
So no, you cannot save her.
Sorry?
I think in Rodrik's case, it is understandable that he wasn't fighting at his best. He has just recovered from his wounds, so his fighting skills isn't at its finest. After he has recovered and briefly fighting in the harbor, he then marched home and didn't have much time to rest before he have to prepare for a siege. He then infiltrated Ludd's camp and managed to kill either Ludd or Gryff and getting wounded in the proceed. Having no time to treat his wounds, he hurried back home and fought the siege. And then he clashed against Harys.
This means that Rodrik has been fighting and moving for many hours, probably more than a day without any proper rest. The fact that he still managed to kill many Whitehills, defeat Ludd/Gryff and still managed to kill Harys and STILL survived all of that, is a testament to his iron endurance.
Asher's case is slightly less believable. I could be totally wrong, but I somehow feel that Asher has an easier time than his brother. After ambushing some Whitehills, he hurried home and prepare for the Whitehills' arrival. No immediate siege and he has to plot an ambush or poison Ludd under the pretense of marrying Gwyn. He has to prepare a feast for Ludd. After either failing or succeeding with their plan, they all have a clash inside the Great Hall. Asher got wounded by a knife stab at his side. One that noticeably weakened him. He then fights in the courtyard and gets injured by Harys. Still however, Asher should still have a lot more energy and strength than Rodrik, since he didn't have to spend many hours fighting. But unlike Rodrik's version, Asher woke up from his unconsciousness during the epilogue, which is probably because that he wasn't as exhausted as Rodrik.
This is just my take of it.
Yeah but they also both have something to slow them down initially - Rodrik is still recovering from his injuries, and Asher has a stab wound in his side. Also there's Harys' height advantage and heavy armor that would still be difficult to overcome in a fight, fast or not. I thought it was a pretty fair fight.
Ooooor maybe Rodrik/Asher isn't invecible and Harys was a better fighter than him?
Which would be fine, except for the fact all prior information and evidence leading up to that fight, points towards that not being the case. That Rodrik and Asher are in fact far superior combatants than Harys, and should have defeated him easier than they did...
Harys was a skilled fighter, it seemed almost obvious he was the Whitehill's best.
Also, having an enemy character being just as skilled as the protagonist adds alot of drama, its boring if you know the protagonist is going to win the fight quickly and easily.
That was never established by anyone in the series - Rodrik might've been Forrester's best but now he's wounded and Asher is as skilled as Rodrik in his current state we don't get any more info than that.
What "prior information and evidence"? The fact that Harys never took advantage of the opportunity to slaughter them when he was obviously in a position to do so?
Asher defeated the Lost Legion only with the help of Beskha. I advise you re-watch the clip of their fight because he most certainly didn't mow the Lost legion down solo as you nearly imply. Rodrik is clearly not even close to 100%, and even if he was I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just run through Harys. Furthermore, like someone else already said - it's practically obvious Harys was the best whitehill solider.
Either brother can wake up or stay passed out at the end. That's determined by whether the traitor, the sentinel, or Gwyn are with them. Gwyn and the traitor wake the surviving brother and get him to his feet. The sentinel seems to arrive a little later than that.
They always bigged him up, so its right hes a good fighter. Rodrik and asher fought dozens of men its fine that they got injured
I really want to see the version where Rodrik wakes up.
I think it might be the same as Asher's version.
Just watch the last minute or so of that playthrough.
Both Asher and Rodrik get wounded before the fight with Harys though.
Thanks. I thought Asher's waking up was exclusive to him. Thank you, the ending is now easier to shallow now that I just saw Rodrik waking up.
I thought Rodrik was more or less supposed to be '100%' by Episode 6.
Rodrik isn't 100% himself, Harys mentions this ("I was hoping to face you whole") directly. Also, you don't dodge around and attack slits in armour with a greatsword (with other swords this is a perfectly valid point)
Asher was also recently wounded, fighting with a weapon that isn't his, and has spent the last few years fighting shit-fighters in Essos. Asher has a prolonged fight with Gryff. He isn't quite on Harys' level.
Not only that, but fighting is literally Harys' entire job and he's using weapons and armour (armour is another HUGE advantage) he's comfortable with. Also his heroism and courage gives him an edge.
Hah, I thought you were calling bs on the brothers surviving the fight.
I'd say Rodrik was about 80-85% in episode 6. Not fully 100% back, but essentially there for the most part.
I'd say Asher and Rodrik at 100% would have handled Harys a lot better.
Damn, Harys is the hidden main antagonist of Season One. Ludd's/Gryff's death wasn't so dramatic and tense as his. Harys killed one brother, seriously injured another, saved Ludd/Gryff, killed Lady Forrester (determinant), killed dozens of House Forrester soldiers and Amaya's sellsword, including the Beast...
Wasn't Asher shot in the leg by a Whitehill soldier in episode 5?
The prior information and evidence is the fact we've seen--and had established--that Rodrik and Asher are exceptional warriors. While Harys' only feat of combat is throwing a spear into a guys back, and likewise, then stabbing either Asher or Rodrik in the back, before striking them once they're being restrained.
He doesn't even dare do anything when the Glenmore Guard enter the room.
He's just a big thug, meant to scare people from fucking with Gryff. Then in Episode 6--suddenly he's this badass Dragonborn warrior who can kick everyone's ass, Rodrik and Asher's included? Idk, I just didn't buy it, is all...
Oh, you mean when the dozen or so archers had arrows drawn on him at point blank range he didn't do anything about it? Wow, he's a huge pussy. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say "he doesn't dare do anything", because he did reach for his weapon, and the look on his face after the unnamed whitehill is shot in the neck wasn't a look of fear, it was anger. What did you expect Harys to do?
Cool, that's your interpretation. I assume everyone else with a different opinion pretty much saw the buildup of Harys as a formidable foe.
He killed the beast with a spear to the side. What do you expect? The beast was OP from the start.
I'm not super familiar with GoT terminology so don't quote me, but Harys is so obviously a high ranking member of the whitehill army he most likely doesn't have to engage in battle unless absolutely necessary. Which is why he only intervened after Asher charges Ludd (I'm using my own playthrough as example).
Were you expecting this ?
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I consider Rodrik to be only at 50% by episode 6.
Wear those armor one, you will see It's not too hard to understand !
Also, they were using the Forrester greatsword, against Harys who was also using a greatsword who was bigger and stronger than they were.
Asher/Rodrik injured before fight. Harys is biggest baddest whitehill we have seen... He was destined to fuck them up.
Rodrik fought some whitehills soldiers in the camp and gets hurt by Ludd or Gryff.
Asher fought some whitehill soldiers in the Great Hall and gets hurt by Gwyn or a whitehill soldier.
And both fought a couple of withehill soldiers in the siege.
Harys was in a horse, with no wounds or tired by combat. He had advantage over Asher and Rodrik (Besides Asher is hurt in episode 5 and Rodrik did not heal completely)
So your saying Rodrik at start of episode 6 was only at 50% and by time he faced Hary he was bordering at 35% of his max. While Asher when he faced Harys was around 55-60% ?
I dont know if Rodrik or Asher were at 50% or 80% or even 30%. But they werent at 100%.
Harys was. He did not fight in the harbor. Just killed the Beast when he was off guard, stabs the brother who stays behind when he was about to attack Gryff, and then kills you once the whitehill garrison had you trapped. He did not fight, just attack when they were distracted.
He had obvious advantage.
Except that's wrong... they didn't have arrows drawn on him at point blank range until half a minute of marching into the room, plenty of time in which the Whitehills could have fled to get reinforcements, get into cover, just try to put up any kind of resistance. They had undrawn bows for a long time before drawing them--they simply marched up to Gryff, the soldiers, and Harys, and in that window they could have put up a resistance. They didn't. They just let the Glenmores aim upon them.
Anyway, all I was saying, was the way Asher and Rodrik were set up this entire story, seems to imply a person like Harys would not have been able to defeat them so easily. Or as easily as he did.
Harys wasn't at his 100% either. He had been in a cellar for a couple of weeks, and was only freed about 3 days ago, then he has to gear up and fight immediately. Not to mention he fell off a running horse while wearing full steel plate armor, which couldn't have felt very good.
Excellent point!
I'm sorry, but do you have several other accounts for which you use to give yourself a thumbs up? I'm just finding it hard to believe anyone's agreeing with your illogical argument right now. Then again, this is the internet; home of the moron- no offense to you. I understand that people prefer to listen to what they want to hear over sound logical sense.
Your original gripe is that Harys didn't "do anything" when the elite guard entered the room. Now you try to form a "couldve, wouldve, shouldve" strategy just to back your opinion.
Here's a still image of the Glenmores as they march into the room. From every entrance.
Where do you see room to "flee", an area to find "cover", or any position to put up any kind of resistance?
Again, I get it. This is your own odd interpretation, however.
P.S. Harys didn't defeat anyone. He is dead and Asher/Rodrik is alive. Did you even play the game or are you just hearing things through grapevine?
Asher/Rodrik are good, not god. It was never once implied that they couldn't be harmed in combat.
I've forgotten whether I made this post about Game of Thrones, or about how much of a bitch I think your mother is... because you're acting if it's the latter. Seriously, I don't understand why you're being so weirdly defensive and aggressive here. But anyway, time to address your points...
That picture clearly shows what I said to you, to begin with. And clearly disproves what you told me, to begin with. There is a large window of opportunity where Harys and co could have punched through the Glenmore Guard, as they had no weapons out other than undrawn bows. Now of course this isn't practical--and probably isn't a smart course of action. My only point was, he didn't take it. He accepted surrender. He went down without a fight. And that goes along with my point about how he doesn't take Asher or Rodrik head on, but instead stabbing them in the back, like he throws a spear into the back of the Beast. To me, this doesn't feel like the set-up of a badass tank of a warrior. But of course, that's "odd" to you, I get the sense you'd call any opinion other than yours that though, so I suppose it doesn't matter...
And he defeated Rodrik and Asher in Episode 6 in the sense without outside intervention -- e.g. that of Lady Forrester -- if it was truly one-on-one, they would have lost. All my point was, all my point has been, this whole time, was I found that to be unlikely and only down to plot. And I wanted to see how other people felt about it. I never once said Asher / Rodrik were god, as you're obsessed with claiming.
I honestly just wanted a civil discussion on this. Thanks for not letting that happen.
Harys, on top of being all armored up, just seems like a tank overall. I mean hell, it takes two axe swings to his neck to finally bring him to his knees.
It's not a fact that Rodrik and Asher are superior combatants, we barely even know about Harys' own accomplishments or training, plus even those who are superior and more skilled aren't invincible to those who are less so.