Whoa guys, calm it, it's not like Kenny swung for Clem! She walked into the middle of a fight and Kenny stopped as soon as he did it. "He didn't say sorry" - He was in a rage over Luke's death and Arvo's reckless behaviour, his mind clearly was off the rails. Considering this, I think his shocked face said it all "Sorry"
Meanwhile, I think Arvo deserved it, he got Luke killed. Tell me all you want that he didn't, but he is the one who decided to rob you no matter what. Doesn't matter if Luke was an idiot and jumped in front of gunfire. Never would have happened without Arvo.
At this point we are arguing over crappy writing, its useless.
Except he never said, "Sorry." Instead, what he can determinately say if you watched Carver die is, "What? Lost your taste for this sort of thing?" as if Kenny expects Clem to enjoy it. Because Arvo is clearly as evil a person as Carver was. (sarcasm) And what Kenny does say is about as opposite to "Sorry" as you can get.
Whoa guys, calm it, it's not like Kenny swung for Clem! She walked into the middle of a fight and Kenny stopped as soon as he did it. "He di… moredn't say sorry" - He was in a rage over Luke's death and Arvo's reckless behaviour, his mind clearly was off the rails. Considering this, I think his shocked face said it all "Sorry"
He ran across the lake, making everyone panic and run too. And then of course, no one was paying attention to Luke, which got him killed.
That scene was so poorly written, making so little sense that Luke would've been killed no matter what, simply because the writers wanted Luke to die, and so, he died. For example, why didn't they think to cross the frozen lake somewhere else, like an actual bridge or something, or at least where the lake was narrower? Why didn't the ice start to crack underneath a different character's feet? Why is it that when Kenny went to get Arvo out of the ice, Kenny didn't fall in, but anyone going to help Luke out of the ice fell in?
If I were in that situation, I'd have already killed Bonnie, Jane, Mike and Arvo before we even got inside.
No, I don't think you would have. And believe me, that's a compliment.
People praise Rick, Carol and Daryl for brutally murdering assholes in a post apocalyptic universe. And some of those people they kill were just people doing their jobs. And now people, most likely the very people who praise Daryl, Rick and Carol for murder, are going to get butthurt and offended when I say the asshole who deserved to die deserves to die.
I don't fall under the category you're assuming here, and I don't believe many both "praise" every one of their murders while also arguing that Arvo shouldn't die. I don't praise Daryl, Rick, and Carol for their murders (in fact I'm starting to dislike Rick/Carol for them, and from recent episodes I believe Carol is starting to rethink her stance on this issue as well.) The last person Daryl killed was Dawn from the hospital, and that was right after Dawn shot Beth in the head. Before that, Daryl killed one of the Claimers, when one of his fellows was trying to rape Carl and murder Rick, Michonne, and him, and before that, yes, Daryl killed the Governor's men (including one guy in a tank destroying the entire prison). Rick's group shooting and killing the Governor's group started when the Governor beheaded Hershel, similar to how the shootout (when there was shooting on both sides) at the beginning of "No Going Back" started after walker-Rebecca was shot and then Buricko started shooting.
But can you tell me how any of these instances is similar to Kenny almost killing an unarmed teenager (someone close to the same age as many of the people on these forums) when you have zero proof that Arvo willingly told his Russian group about Clem's group? You say
Arvo tattled to his group for no fucking reason
When you have no proof of this at all. It seems to me that Buricko and Vitali (the older Russian men), who said, according to their translations:
"Buricko! Buricko! We can take them! I can kill any three of them with my bare hands, we don't even need the weapons! That's right, I mean you, eyepatch man, you're weak and I could tear out your throat with my teeth, who needs to use bullets for the likes of you? I'll kill you all and eat your entrails for breakfast!" Source, from the game files
were the clear leaders of the group, not Arvo. It seems more likely that Buricko/Vitali beat the information about Clem's group out of Arvo, when he came back to the Russian group with no gun. Furthermore, Arvo simply does not want to fight Clem's group, especially when he realizes there's a baby in the group.
You could indeed argue that they got his sister and his whole group killed, but how about Tara? Her group was COMPLETELY in the wrong and mislead by some guy. Not all of them deserved to die though, they were just being mislead. Rick and the others killed ALL of her group, her sister, everyone, even those who had a clear head.
I don't understand this example. As I said in a different comment, no, Rick's group did not kill Tara's sister (the show portrays Tara's sister Lilly shooting the Governor, and then Lilly's fate is unknown: ), and there's no evidence they killed all of the Governor's forces (Rick was beaten to shit by the Governor, and he limped away, bloodied and barely upright, with Carl; Rick's entire group was separated. How could a fractured group that had no choice but to go their separate ways and then finally meet up half a season later at Terminus kill every last member of the Governor's forces? Probably at least some of the Governor's forces got away as well when they saw the fight going against their favor.)
What did she do? Did she steal all the food, shoot Carl and leave in the middle of the night, so that way Judith would be defenseless? No. She pledged herself to the group, to stand by them no matter what.
You conveniently forget that before Tara pledged herself to Rick's group, Glenn showed her kindness. Even though Glenn's entire group had just been destroyed, even though Tara admitted to Glenn that she was part of the group who killed his father-in-law Hershel, even though Tara's group was responsible for Glenn's entire home and family being destroyed, and for him being separated from his wife, who could most probably be dead, Glenn was kind to Tara. He didn't just leave her at the prison to die. By your logic, if you treated Tara the same way you want to treat Arvo, the best thing to do would've been to shoot the depressed Tara in the head, and just go on. Or similarly by your logic, you would just leave her there, and let Tara shoot herself in the head in her own time, as she was bound to. Tara pledged to stand by Rick's group after Glenn and Maggie and the others showed kindness to her, after Tara most likely realized that her sister was dead, and after Rick's group, as you said, killed a great deal of Tara's group. Tara did not however pledge herself to Rick's group after being beaten to near-death, like Kenny did with Arvo.
So yeah, your Tara example actually shows what could've happened if the group had been kind to Arvo, instead of having Kenny abuse him over and over again.
What did he do? He shot Clem and stole all the food.
Well we're not sure if that was Bonnie's or Mike's idea to steal all the food, or if it was Arvo's. I maintain the belief that Bonnie/Mike/Arvo stealing all the food, including the baby formula, was just ridiculous to the point that it didn't make sense. What were two adults and one adolescent going to do with baby formula exactly?
I also maintain the belief that the writers had Arvo shoot Clem, and had Bonnie/Mike also betray them simply so that it would appear that Kenny was "right." Don't forget that the writers pretty much did not develop Arvo's character. There was literally never an option to actually explain to Arvo that his sister was already a walker before Clem had to shoot her. Not to mention all the details with Arvo's medicine bag--they never even explained it. They just dropped it completely with that. I thought we would've learned more of who actually used those meds, or if his sister actually was sick (perhaps she had diabetes or something like Molly's sister) or maybe Arvo just really needed those pain meds himself. Having a leg in a brace in the zombie apocalypse is probably not be a painless endeavor, after all. Also, it's a bit shameful they didn't even revisit the meds, as it was a major choice in episode 4, but as I said, they completely neglected to explain what exactly was going on.
Kenny was completely in the right to treat Arvo like shit
Lol no. If we learned anything from the Tara example, you should be doing the exact opposite of what Kenny did.
Whether you like it or not, Clem, and everyone else deserved a good smack in the fucking mouth for not letting Ken finish it.
There's a lot more to it than that.
How did Arvo screw everyone over?
He ran across the lake, making everyone panic and run to… moreo. And then of course, no one was paying attention to Luke, which got him killed.
It wasnt good enough for his highness so he had a typical over the top reaction.
Look, I hate Kenny as much as the next guy, but he was in the right to have that reaction. Arvo indirectly got Luke killed and risked AJ's life, he made the situation with Rebecca even worse, he had the entire group down his neck for no reason, and he was basically going through more than anyone else. If I were in that situation, I'd have already killed Bonnie, Jane, Mike and Arvo before we even got inside. I know how it feels to have everyone against you at once, and it fucking sucks. Arvo just added onto that.
Saying Arvo deserved to be beaten to death for it is ludicrous,
No, it was ludicrous. It would have been lu… [view original content]
But his face said it, he was in shock. And how do we know Arvo wasn't as big a danger as Carver? Maybe not himself, but the group he belonged to. Arvo led the group for two days into the wilderness and to where? A bigger, armed group? Kenny wasn't to know, Arvo's attitude didn't help either. And Arvo shot Clem, even Carver couldn't pull the trigger
Except he never said, "Sorry." Instead, what he can determinately say if you watched Carver die is, "What? Lost your taste for this sort of … morething?" as if Kenny expects Clem to enjoy it. Because Arvo is clearly as evil a person as Carver was. (sarcasm) And what Kenny does say is about as opposite to "Sorry" as you can get.
Arvo led the group for two days into the wilderness and to where? A bigger, armed group?
Well since Arvo literally led them to exactly where he said he'd lead them to--food and shelter--and there was no bigger armed group, and there was no indication of any bigger armed group, I don't think you're right here. However you are right in that they couldn't have known Arvo was telling the truth. Instead I think it would've been a better bet to go towards that town they were originally heading towards at the end of ep 4.
eiven Carver couldn't pull the trigger
Not true actually. Carver can shoot Clem in one of her non-canon deaths.
But his face said it, he was in shock. And how do we know Arvo wasn't as big a danger as Carver? Maybe not himself, but the group he belonge… mored to. Arvo led the group for two days into the wilderness and to where? A bigger, armed group? Kenny wasn't to know, Arvo's attitude didn't help either. And Arvo shot Clem, even Carver couldn't pull the trigger
No, we know with hindsight there wasn't any. But they wasn't to know and this isn't a world you want to take risks in, plus Arvo was acting real edgy and suspicious the whole time. And I agree, but Luke was injured and half the group wanted to see Arvo's supplies. And fair enough, but it WAS non-canon, (and excuse the typing errors). But Arvo maliciously shot Clem when there was no need to, she was unarmed
But his face said it, he was in shock.
Except he didn't say anything of the sort.
Arvo led the group for two days into the wil… morederness and to where? A bigger, armed group?
Well since Arvo literally led them to exactly where he said he'd lead them to--food and shelter--and there was no bigger armed group, and there was no indication of any bigger armed group, I don't think you're right here. However you are right in that they couldn't have known Arvo was telling the truth. Instead I think it would've been a better bet to go towards that town they were originally heading towards at the end of ep 4.
eiven Carver couldn't pull the trigger
Not true actually. Carver can shoot Clem in one of her non-canon deaths.
Whoa guys, calm it, it's not like Kenny swung for Clem! She walked into the middle of a fight and Kenny stopped as soon as he did it. "He di… moredn't say sorry" - He was in a rage over Luke's death and Arvo's reckless behaviour, his mind clearly was off the rails. Considering this, I think his shocked face said it all "Sorry"
I don't think he regretted beating Arvo up, he just regretted that Clem got caught up in it. And he does step away without harming Arvo anymore. I think you could see in his face that he was sorry, but hey S2 is all about what you make of it. But I don't think Kenny is a bad as what people are making out
I don't think he regretted beating Arvo up, he just regretted that Clem got caught up in it. And he does step away without harming Arvo anym… moreore. I think you could see in his face that he was sorry, but hey S2 is all about what you make of it. But I don't think Kenny is a bad as what people are making out
What you said about Tara is exactly what I was thinking about Arvo. Mike showed him kindness and he responded to it. Kenny showed him cruelty and he reponded to that too, by striking out and I didnt blame him. I think Kenny should feel ashamed of himself for beating up a crippled child. Listen to how that even sounds. If they had all shown him kindness, talked to him, explained things, I feel certain Clementine would not have been shot.
Meanwhile, I think Arvo deserved it, he got Luke killed. Tell me all you want that he didn't, but he is the one who decided to rob you no ma… moretter what. Doesn't matter if Luke was an idiot and jumped in front of gunfire. Never would have happened without Arvo.
At this point we are arguing over crappy writing, its useless.
Okay, I was confused because I thought he meant the thing at the end with Mike and Bonnie, or the medicines where Jane robbed him, those are the only things I could think of.
Which robbery are you talking about?
I believe s/he means when Arvo's group tries to rob Clem's group at the end of episode 4, resulting in the shootout. Which doesn't really make sense.
Yes, of course. Its just that the writing doesn't make any sense, and then we argue about it. Why would half the group defend Arvo even though that said he and his group were going to rob them because Clem robbed him. Even after Luke got shot they said "alright, lets have the Russian guy lead us, even though we just killed all his friends. Not like he could lead us to the wrong place or a death trap or anything."
The Arvo beating with Kenny is different... Telltales writing = Kenny gets mad because... Arvo brought them to a house with a roof? WTF?!?
The whole reason Kenny beats Arvo is completely stupid in the game, if anything it should have been because he (indirectly Caused) Luke's death. But that's never stated in the game for some reason. It seems so rushed that the writers didn't even have time to give Kenny a reason to just randomly beat the crap out of Arvo. Thats why its dumb to argue over, because the reason isn't even logical. Season 2 Kenny is no where near Season 1 Kenny at all, Kenny wouldn't just beat Arvo up for no reason because he led them to a house... Look at season 1 Kenny, he forgave Ben after he Got his entire family killed then season 2 Kenny happens. I can rant about this but you probably don't want to read it so yeah.. sorry. This is at least my opinion on this all, or at least some of it.
he is the one who decided to rob you no matter what
Except for the fact that you have no evidence that Arvo was the one who decided to rob Clem's group, and that's all an assumption. Given the evidence we actually do have (e.g. Arvo's dialogue as well as the translated dialogue from the game) it's pretty darn clear that Arvo was not the one giving orders, but he was the one taking them. E.g., some of Arvo's translated lines are:
Arvo: "What should I take?"
Buricko: "How should I know? Whatever they have."
At one point, Clem can say, "No, you aren't taking anything from us."
Buricko: "Lower your guns!"
Arvo replies to Clem, in English, "They are telling me not to ask."
There's another interaction the Russians have as well, in, of course, Russian:
Arvo is clearly not the leader here. He is being ordered by the others.
Most likely Buricko and Vitali forced the information about Clem's group out of Arvo by beating him when he came back to the Russian group without a gun, and Buricko/Vitali decided to rob Clem's group.
To be honest though, I didn't need the translations to be able to tell that Arvo was clearly being controlled by the rest of his group. It was written all over his face, as well as the Russian groups' faces, as well as in the way the group interacted with each other and spoke to Arvo in a none-too-respectful fashion, etc.
At this point we are arguing over crappy writing, its useless.
Yeah, I suppose. I think it would've been much better if we'd actually been able to have a proper conversation with Arvo. There was the perfect opportunity to at the hub with the campfire scene--you could've asked him about his sister, about the medicine, about how he got his injury, how he came to be in America, how he came to be with the Russian group, and how when you shot his sister, she really was a walker--but alas, it was not to be so.
Meanwhile, I think Arvo deserved it, he got Luke killed. Tell me all you want that he didn't, but he is the one who decided to rob you no ma… moretter what. Doesn't matter if Luke was an idiot and jumped in front of gunfire. Never would have happened without Arvo.
At this point we are arguing over crappy writing, its useless.
Which robbery are you talking about?
I believe s/he means when Arvo's group tries to rob Clem's group at the end of episode 4, resulting in the shootout. Which doesn't really make sense.
Edit: Oh. I posted this after I realized you commented something else..
Yeah, its fine, I'm pretty sure I probably talked about stuff that goes against your opinion though ;p
You do have a point with the group telling him to translate to rob Clem's group, I guess even if he didn't want to, he still told his group that Clem stole their stuff.
Most likely Buricko and Vitali forced the information about Clem's group out of Arvo by beating him when he came back to the Russian group without a gun, and Buricko/Vitali decided to rob Clem's group.
Well... that's an assumption there too, I might be forgetting something Arvo said when you robbed him or not regarding to that though. From the looks of it however it seemed the Russian group was at good terms with each other.
Oh... and what Arvo was even doing with those meds I will never know... Why would he need to hide the meds for his sister is just like... wat. Its possible they might want to come back for it later but.. why? Its never explained... its poor writing. So Arvo being able to speak English(fluently) AND Russian should have happened.
he is the one who decided to rob you no matter what
Except for the fact that you have no evidence that Arvo was the one who decided … moreto rob Clem's group, and that's all an assumption. Given the evidence we actually do have (e.g. Arvo's dialogue as well as the translated dialogue from the game) it's pretty darn clear that Arvo was not the one giving orders, but he was the one taking them. E.g., some of Arvo's translated lines are:
Arvo: "What should I take?"
Buricko: "How should I know? Whatever they have."
At one point, Clem can say, "No, you aren't taking anything from us."
Buricko: "Lower your guns!"
Arvo replies to Clem, in English, "They are telling me not to ask."
There's another interaction the Russians have as well, in, of course, Russian:
Buricko: "Listen Arvo. Why aren't they obeying?"
Arvo: "I'm trying!"
Natasha: "Try harder!"
Arvo is clearly not the leader here. He is being ordered by the others.
Most … [view original content]
Most likely Buricko and Vitali forced the information about Clem's group out of Arvo by beating him
I don't know, I don't think they would have to go so far as to beat him, especially since he doesn't show any bruises or signs of hurting more than the last time we saw him. They could have just asked him why his gun was missing and maybe he just told the truth and they decided to get some revenge.
he is the one who decided to rob you no matter what
Except for the fact that you have no evidence that Arvo was the one who decided … moreto rob Clem's group, and that's all an assumption. Given the evidence we actually do have (e.g. Arvo's dialogue as well as the translated dialogue from the game) it's pretty darn clear that Arvo was not the one giving orders, but he was the one taking them. E.g., some of Arvo's translated lines are:
Arvo: "What should I take?"
Buricko: "How should I know? Whatever they have."
At one point, Clem can say, "No, you aren't taking anything from us."
Buricko: "Lower your guns!"
Arvo replies to Clem, in English, "They are telling me not to ask."
There's another interaction the Russians have as well, in, of course, Russian:
Buricko: "Listen Arvo. Why aren't they obeying?"
Arvo: "I'm trying!"
Natasha: "Try harder!"
Arvo is clearly not the leader here. He is being ordered by the others.
Most … [view original content]
True, what I said was an assumption (I did say it was "likely" lol, not that it was a fact.) However my point is, I don't think it's enough to want to kill Arvo based off of an assumption that Arvo willingly told his group about Clem's group, when we simply can't confirm (or deny) that.
And I wouldn't say the Russians were on the best terms with each other. It seemed pretty clear to me that Arvo did not want to be there robbing Clem's group, but Buricko/Vitali absolutely did. Buricko/Vitali seemed like the bullies to me. And Arvo could've had bruises on his torso from them (or he could've not), but we might just never know.
Edit: Oh. I posted this after I realized you commented something else..
Yeah, its fine, I'm pretty sure I probably talked about stu… moreff that goes against your opinion though ;p
You do have a point with the group telling him to translate to rob Clem's group, I guess even if he didn't want to, he still told his group that Clem stole their stuff.
Most likely Buricko and Vitali forced the information about Clem's group out of Arvo by beating him when he came back to the Russian group without a gun, and Buricko/Vitali decided to rob Clem's group.
Well... that's an assumption there too, I might be forgetting something Arvo said when you robbed him or not regarding to that though. From the looks of it however it seemed the Russian group was at good terms with each other.
Oh... and what Arvo was even doing with those meds I will never know... Why would he need to hide the meds for his sister is just like... wat. Its possibl… [view original content]
Well... that's an assumption there too
From the looks of it however it seemed the Russian group was at good terms with each other.
… more
@dojo32161
True, what I said was an assumption (I did say it was "likely" lol, not that it was a fact.) However my point is, I don't think it's enough to want to kill Arvo based off of an assumption that Arvo willingly told his group about Clem's group, when we simply can't confirm (or deny) that.
And I wouldn't say the Russians were on the best terms with each other. It seemed pretty clear to me that Arvo did not want to be there robbing Clem's group, but Buricko/Vitali absolutely did. Buricko/Vitali seemed like the bullies to me. And Arvo could've had bruises on his torso from them (or he could've not), but we might just never know.
Hey that's cool, my definitely male bro lol. I wasn't assuming you were a male or a female, that's why I put "s/he" rather than just "he" or "she." It's funny because I know of a pretty popular fanimator who used the screenname "Crowne Prince;" everyone assumed it was a "he" when really it was a "she," and she'd just chosen that name on purpose to make a kind of joke. But she (as a straight woman) cleared things up when she kept getting messages from other straight women saying they loved her and her work so much lol. She even made an animation about it. >.>
He, I just have Mira as a pic ;p
EDIT: I have to say what I wrote above this is poorly explained though (and rage induced as it seems) lol.
No.more Mira pic
and... attempted robbery...okay.
What you said about Tara is exactly what I was thinking about Arvo. Mike showed him kindness and he responded to it. Kenny showed him cruelt… morey and he reponded to that too, by striking out and I didnt blame him. I think Kenny should feel ashamed of himself for beating up a crippled child. Listen to how that even sounds. If they had all shown him kindness, talked to him, explained things, I feel certain Clementine would not have been shot.
He, I just have Mira as a pic ;p
Hey that's cool, my definitely male bro lol. I wasn't assuming you were a male or a female, that's … morewhy I put "s/he" rather than just "he" or "she." It's funny because I know of a pretty popular fanimator who used the screenname "Crowne Prince;" everyone assumed it was a "he" when really it was a "she," and she'd just chosen that name on purpose to make a kind of joke. But she (as a straight woman) cleared things up when she kept getting messages from other straight women saying they loved her and her work so much lol. She even made an animation about it. >.>
So yeah, you can never be too careful! XD
Well... that's an assumption there too
From the looks of it however it seemed the Russian group was at good terms with each other.
… more
@dojo32161
True, what I said was an assumption (I did say it was "likely" lol, not that it was a fact.) However my point is, I don't think it's enough to want to kill Arvo based off of an assumption that Arvo willingly told his group about Clem's group, when we simply can't confirm (or deny) that.
And I wouldn't say the Russians were on the best terms with each other. It seemed pretty clear to me that Arvo did not want to be there robbing Clem's group, but Buricko/Vitali absolutely did. Buricko/Vitali seemed like the bullies to me. And Arvo could've had bruises on his torso from them (or he could've not), but we might just never know.
He even hit her ... you're not paying attention to her situation ?! She almost froze to death, almost broke her nose, another little girl could cry ... Kenny just a piece of ruthless, idiot.
I'm not sure that the Lee dream sequence was for that purpose. People on the forums seem divided about it either being about the betrayal or Jane vs Kenny. I wouldn't presume on what he meant too much as NGB was... messy... Anyway I think some fans are just so attached to certain characters to think anything beyond "ME GOOD, THEY BAD" much less attempt to understand a villain's actions
Right?
People's lack of empathy in the wake of episode 5 baffled and disturbed me, especially as the game hits you over the head with the fact that you shouldn't be angry at Arvo in the Lee dream sequence.
Honestly as soon as he got to the house he could have killed him right there. He even says "I should let you drown you piece of shit". Then again Episode 5 didn't make a lot of sense to me
I think Kenny does care for Clementine.
I think Kenny did care about her, but was dealing with insanity.
And given what he went through in S1, and S2, that type of loss and trauma would be enough to drive anyone crazy.
Yeah, but everyone has suffered the same amount of loss and trauma. Its what they have inside that affects how they react to it. Clementine by season 2 has lost her parents plus three parent figures and she still held up, I guess some would say too well, for such a small child. I agree that I think Kenny had some instability issues exacerbated by his drinking.
I think Kenny does care for Clementine.
I think Kenny did care about her, but was dealing with insanity.
And given what he went through in S1, and S2, that type of loss and trauma would be enough to drive anyone crazy.
I think you presented your argument rather well.
And I will agree that the writing in some respects didn't make much sense.
I think that the most ridiculous part was having Kenny and Jane battle at the end.
Just to state a fact, men are naturally stronger than women.
So to think that Jane was gonna be able to stand up to Kenny and possibly be able to kill him, is just ridiculous.
Plus, Jane just showing up out of pretty much nowhere, and then being able to cause so much trouble, to me just isn't logical.
I would think that Kenny and Luke battling it out would be far more likely, given that they pretty much butted heads from the start.
I will add more a bit later, so just hang with me.
Yes, of course. Its just that the writing doesn't make any sense, and then we argue about it. Why would half the group defend Arvo even thou… moregh that said he and his group were going to rob them because Clem robbed him. Even after Luke got shot they said "alright, lets have the Russian guy lead us, even though we just killed all his friends. Not like he could lead us to the wrong place or a death trap or anything."
The Arvo beating with Kenny is different... Telltales writing = Kenny gets mad because... Arvo brought them to a house with a roof? WTF?!?
The whole reason Kenny beats Arvo is completely stupid in the game, if anything it should have been because he (indirectly Caused) Luke's death. But that's never stated in the game for some reason. It seems so rushed that the writers didn't even have time to give Kenny a reason to just randomly beat the crap out of Arvo. Thats why its dumb to argue over, because the reason isn't even logical… [view original content]
Yeah, but everyone has suffered the same amount of loss and trauma. Its what they have inside that affects how they react to it. Clementine … moreby season 2 has lost her parents plus three parent figures and she still held up, I guess some would say too well, for such a small child. I agree that I think Kenny had some instability issues exacerbated by his drinking.
How often did he actually drink?
Only 1 time did we ever see him drunk, and that was in episode 5 of season 1.
After that time, we never see him take another swig, even when the group was passing the bottle around in S2, during Luke's birthday.
Yeah, but everyone has suffered the same amount of loss and trauma. Its what they have inside that affects how they react to it. Clementine … moreby season 2 has lost her parents plus three parent figures and she still held up, I guess some would say too well, for such a small child. I agree that I think Kenny had some instability issues exacerbated by his drinking.
Thats what I was referring too specifically, Kenny getting blotto and snapping at everyone at the end of Season 1. No, we havent seen him drink at all in season 2 but Im trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that there were contributing factors to his behavior and not just that he was plain old nuts. Maybe his drinking didnt contribute and it was just growing psychosis. There was some factor that caused him to lash out and become violent when other people who suffered just as much didnt.
How often did he actually drink?
Only 1 time did we ever see him drunk, and that was in episode 5 of season 1.
After that time, we never see him take another swig, even when the group was passing the bottle around in S2, during Luke's birthday.
There was some factor that caused him to lash out and become violent when other people who suffered just as much didnt
People aren't uniform, not everyone has the same tolerance level for trauma, be it physically or mentally. Everyone might suffer the same amount of trauma, but that doesn't mean everyone will respond in the same way to it. And most of the time, you can't even fault a person for it. Some people just have an inherent bad tolerance for trauma; a relatively easy-to-reach breaking point
Some people can take multiple personal losses of family or friends, even in super traumatic situations (car crash, murder, etc) without breaking down, hell, without shedding a single tear, while someone else could be driven to near-instability from just one person they know dying of natural causes
I don't think it's fair to say that people like this -- people who simply aren't built as solid emotionally or mentally as the people around them -- are in some arbitrary 'wrong', just because other people have suffered the same things as them, or possibly even more, and didn't respond as negatively to it
That's a line of thought that I find rather... foreign, to be quite honest. To me, it just doesn't compute
Thats what I was referring too specifically, Kenny getting blotto and snapping at everyone at the end of Season 1. No, we havent seen him dr… moreink at all in season 2 but Im trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that there were contributing factors to his behavior and not just that he was plain old nuts. Maybe his drinking didnt contribute and it was just growing psychosis. There was some factor that caused him to lash out and become violent when other people who suffered just as much didnt.
I dont think I said that unstable people are wrong. You seem to think Im painting all people with one brush and thats not what Im trying to do. Im simply trying to understand why Kenny cant control his rage. There's a difference between breaking down after a traumatic event and getting so uncontrollably violent that you have to be pulled off people. I really do believe there is some underlying cause that was there even before the outbreak happened. The comparison to other people was just in response to that idea that Kenny's behavior is not wrong or as wrong because he somehow suffered more losses than anyone else.
There was some factor that caused him to lash out and become violent when other people who suffered just as much didnt
People aren't… more uniform, not everyone has the same tolerance level for trauma, be it physically or mentally. Everyone might suffer the same amount of trauma, but that doesn't mean everyone will respond in the same way to it. And most of the time, you can't even fault a person for it. Some people just have an inherent bad tolerance for trauma; a relatively easy-to-reach breaking point
Some people can take multiple personal losses of family or friends, even in super traumatic situations (car crash, murder, etc) without breaking down, hell, without shedding a single tear, while someone else could be driven to near-instability from just one person they know dying of natural causes
I don't think it's fair to say that people like this -- people who simply aren't built as solid emotionally or mentally as the people aroun… [view original content]
I dont think I said that unstable people are wrong. You seem to think Im painting all people with one brush and thats not what Im trying to … moredo. Im simply trying to understand why Kenny cant control his rage. There's a difference between breaking down after a traumatic event and getting so uncontrollably violent that you have to be pulled off people. I really do believe there is some underlying cause that was there even before the outbreak happened. The comparison to other people was just in response to that idea that Kenny's behavior is not wrong or as wrong because he somehow suffered more losses than anyone else.
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Whoa guys, calm it, it's not like Kenny swung for Clem! She walked into the middle of a fight and Kenny stopped as soon as he did it. "He didn't say sorry" - He was in a rage over Luke's death and Arvo's reckless behaviour, his mind clearly was off the rails. Considering this, I think his shocked face said it all "Sorry"
Meanwhile, I think Arvo deserved it, he got Luke killed. Tell me all you want that he didn't, but he is the one who decided to rob you no matter what. Doesn't matter if Luke was an idiot and jumped in front of gunfire. Never would have happened without Arvo.
At this point we are arguing over crappy writing, its useless.
Except he never said, "Sorry." Instead, what he can determinately say if you watched Carver die is, "What? Lost your taste for this sort of thing?" as if Kenny expects Clem to enjoy it. Because Arvo is clearly as evil a person as Carver was. (sarcasm) And what Kenny does say is about as opposite to "Sorry" as you can get.
That scene was so poorly written, making so little sense that Luke would've been killed no matter what, simply because the writers wanted Luke to die, and so, he died. For example, why didn't they think to cross the frozen lake somewhere else, like an actual bridge or something, or at least where the lake was narrower? Why didn't the ice start to crack underneath a different character's feet? Why is it that when Kenny went to get Arvo out of the ice, Kenny didn't fall in, but anyone going to help Luke out of the ice fell in?
No, I don't think you would have. And believe me, that's a compliment.
I don't fall under the category you're assuming here, and I don't believe many both "praise" every one of their murders while also arguing that Arvo shouldn't die. I don't praise Daryl, Rick, and Carol for their murders (in fact I'm starting to dislike Rick/Carol for them, and from recent episodes I believe Carol is starting to rethink her stance on this issue as well.) The last person Daryl killed was Dawn from the hospital, and that was right after Dawn shot Beth in the head. Before that, Daryl killed one of the Claimers, when one of his fellows was trying to rape Carl and murder Rick, Michonne, and him, and before that, yes, Daryl killed the Governor's men (including one guy in a tank destroying the entire prison). Rick's group shooting and killing the Governor's group started when the Governor beheaded Hershel, similar to how the shootout (when there was shooting on both sides) at the beginning of "No Going Back" started after walker-Rebecca was shot and then Buricko started shooting.
But can you tell me how any of these instances is similar to Kenny almost killing an unarmed teenager (someone close to the same age as many of the people on these forums) when you have zero proof that Arvo willingly told his Russian group about Clem's group? You say
When you have no proof of this at all. It seems to me that Buricko and Vitali (the older Russian men), who said, according to their translations:
"Buricko! Buricko! We can take them! I can kill any three of them with my bare hands, we don't even need the weapons! That's right, I mean you, eyepatch man, you're weak and I could tear out your throat with my teeth, who needs to use bullets for the likes of you? I'll kill you all and eat your entrails for breakfast!" Source, from the game files
were the clear leaders of the group, not Arvo. It seems more likely that Buricko/Vitali beat the information about Clem's group out of Arvo, when he came back to the Russian group with no gun. Furthermore, Arvo simply does not want to fight Clem's group, especially when he realizes there's a baby in the group.
I don't understand this example. As I said in a different comment, no, Rick's group did not kill Tara's sister (the show portrays Tara's sister Lilly shooting the Governor, and then Lilly's fate is unknown:
), and there's no evidence they killed all of the Governor's forces (Rick was beaten to shit by the Governor, and he limped away, bloodied and barely upright, with Carl; Rick's entire group was separated. How could a fractured group that had no choice but to go their separate ways and then finally meet up half a season later at Terminus kill every last member of the Governor's forces? Probably at least some of the Governor's forces got away as well when they saw the fight going against their favor.)
You conveniently forget that before Tara pledged herself to Rick's group, Glenn showed her kindness. Even though Glenn's entire group had just been destroyed, even though Tara admitted to Glenn that she was part of the group who killed his father-in-law Hershel, even though Tara's group was responsible for Glenn's entire home and family being destroyed, and for him being separated from his wife, who could most probably be dead, Glenn was kind to Tara. He didn't just leave her at the prison to die. By your logic, if you treated Tara the same way you want to treat Arvo, the best thing to do would've been to shoot the depressed Tara in the head, and just go on. Or similarly by your logic, you would just leave her there, and let Tara shoot herself in the head in her own time, as she was bound to. Tara pledged to stand by Rick's group after Glenn and Maggie and the others showed kindness to her, after Tara most likely realized that her sister was dead, and after Rick's group, as you said, killed a great deal of Tara's group. Tara did not however pledge herself to Rick's group after being beaten to near-death, like Kenny did with Arvo.
So yeah, your Tara example actually shows what could've happened if the group had been kind to Arvo, instead of having Kenny abuse him over and over again.
Well we're not sure if that was Bonnie's or Mike's idea to steal all the food, or if it was Arvo's. I maintain the belief that Bonnie/Mike/Arvo stealing all the food, including the baby formula, was just ridiculous to the point that it didn't make sense. What were two adults and one adolescent going to do with baby formula exactly?
I also maintain the belief that the writers had Arvo shoot Clem, and had Bonnie/Mike also betray them simply so that it would appear that Kenny was "right." Don't forget that the writers pretty much did not develop Arvo's character. There was literally never an option to actually explain to Arvo that his sister was already a walker before Clem had to shoot her. Not to mention all the details with Arvo's medicine bag--they never even explained it. They just dropped it completely with that. I thought we would've learned more of who actually used those meds, or if his sister actually was sick (perhaps she had diabetes or something like Molly's sister) or maybe Arvo just really needed those pain meds himself. Having a leg in a brace in the zombie apocalypse is probably not be a painless endeavor, after all. Also, it's a bit shameful they didn't even revisit the meds, as it was a major choice in episode 4, but as I said, they completely neglected to explain what exactly was going on.
Lol no. If we learned anything from the Tara example, you should be doing the exact opposite of what Kenny did.
Again, no.
But his face said it, he was in shock. And how do we know Arvo wasn't as big a danger as Carver? Maybe not himself, but the group he belonged to. Arvo led the group for two days into the wilderness and to where? A bigger, armed group? Kenny wasn't to know, Arvo's attitude didn't help either. And Arvo shot Clem, even Carver couldn't pull the trigger
Except he didn't say anything of the sort.
Well since Arvo literally led them to exactly where he said he'd lead them to--food and shelter--and there was no bigger armed group, and there was no indication of any bigger armed group, I don't think you're right here. However you are right in that they couldn't have known Arvo was telling the truth. Instead I think it would've been a better bet to go towards that town they were originally heading towards at the end of ep 4.
Not true actually. Carver can shoot Clem in one of her non-canon deaths.
No, we know with hindsight there wasn't any. But they wasn't to know and this isn't a world you want to take risks in, plus Arvo was acting real edgy and suspicious the whole time. And I agree, but Luke was injured and half the group wanted to see Arvo's supplies. And fair enough, but it WAS non-canon, (and excuse the typing errors). But Arvo maliciously shot Clem when there was no need to, she was unarmed
His face never said sorry but rather regret and probably realizing he let his rage take over once again.
I don't think he regretted beating Arvo up, he just regretted that Clem got caught up in it. And he does step away without harming Arvo anymore. I think you could see in his face that he was sorry, but hey S2 is all about what you make of it. But I don't think Kenny is a bad as what people are making out
No I said he regretted because he accidentally hurt Clementine.
What you said about Tara is exactly what I was thinking about Arvo. Mike showed him kindness and he responded to it. Kenny showed him cruelty and he reponded to that too, by striking out and I didnt blame him. I think Kenny should feel ashamed of himself for beating up a crippled child. Listen to how that even sounds. If they had all shown him kindness, talked to him, explained things, I feel certain Clementine would not have been shot.
Which robbery are you talking about?
In any case, whatever you think of the writing, its part of the game cannon so its still worth talking about.
Bruh lmao
I believe s/he means when Arvo's group tries to rob Clem's group at the end of episode 4, resulting in the shootout. Which doesn't really make sense.
Okay, I was confused because I thought he meant the thing at the end with Mike and Bonnie, or the medicines where Jane robbed him, those are the only things I could think of.
Yes, of course. Its just that the writing doesn't make any sense, and then we argue about it. Why would half the group defend Arvo even though that said he and his group were going to rob them because Clem robbed him. Even after Luke got shot they said "alright, lets have the Russian guy lead us, even though we just killed all his friends. Not like he could lead us to the wrong place or a death trap or anything."
The Arvo beating with Kenny is different... Telltales writing = Kenny gets mad because... Arvo brought them to a house with a roof? WTF?!?
The whole reason Kenny beats Arvo is completely stupid in the game, if anything it should have been because he (indirectly Caused) Luke's death. But that's never stated in the game for some reason. It seems so rushed that the writers didn't even have time to give Kenny a reason to just randomly beat the crap out of Arvo. Thats why its dumb to argue over, because the reason isn't even logical. Season 2 Kenny is no where near Season 1 Kenny at all, Kenny wouldn't just beat Arvo up for no reason because he led them to a house... Look at season 1 Kenny, he forgave Ben after he Got his entire family killed then season 2 Kenny happens. I can rant about this but you probably don't want to read it so yeah.. sorry. This is at least my opinion on this all, or at least some of it.
Except for the fact that you have no evidence that Arvo was the one who decided to rob Clem's group, and that's all an assumption. Given the evidence we actually do have (e.g. Arvo's dialogue as well as the translated dialogue from the game) it's pretty darn clear that Arvo was not the one giving orders, but he was the one taking them. E.g., some of Arvo's translated lines are:
Arvo: "What should I take?"
Buricko: "How should I know? Whatever they have."
At one point, Clem can say, "No, you aren't taking anything from us."
Buricko: "Lower your guns!"
Arvo replies to Clem, in English, "They are telling me not to ask."
There's another interaction the Russians have as well, in, of course, Russian:
Buricko: "Listen Arvo. Why aren't they obeying?"
Arvo: "I'm trying!"
Natasha: "Try harder!"
Arvo is clearly not the leader here. He is being ordered by the others.
Most likely Buricko and Vitali forced the information about Clem's group out of Arvo by beating him when he came back to the Russian group without a gun, and Buricko/Vitali decided to rob Clem's group.
Source 1 and Source 2, again.
To be honest though, I didn't need the translations to be able to tell that Arvo was clearly being controlled by the rest of his group. It was written all over his face, as well as the Russian groups' faces, as well as in the way the group interacted with each other and spoke to Arvo in a none-too-respectful fashion, etc.
Yeah, I suppose. I think it would've been much better if we'd actually been able to have a proper conversation with Arvo. There was the perfect opportunity to at the hub with the campfire scene--you could've asked him about his sister, about the medicine, about how he got his injury, how he came to be in America, how he came to be with the Russian group, and how when you shot his sister, she really was a walker--but alas, it was not to be so.
Edit: Oh. I posted this after I realized you commented something else..
He, I just have Mira as a pic ;p
EDIT: I have to say what I wrote above this is poorly explained though (and rage induced as it seems) lol.
No.more Mira pic
and... attempted robbery...okay.
Yeah, its fine, I'm pretty sure I probably talked about stuff that goes against your opinion though ;p
You do have a point with the group telling him to translate to rob Clem's group, I guess even if he didn't want to, he still told his group that Clem stole their stuff.
Well... that's an assumption there too, I might be forgetting something Arvo said when you robbed him or not regarding to that though. From the looks of it however it seemed the Russian group was at good terms with each other.
Oh... and what Arvo was even doing with those meds I will never know... Why would he need to hide the meds for his sister is just like... wat. Its possible they might want to come back for it later but.. why? Its never explained... its poor writing. So Arvo being able to speak English(fluently) AND Russian should have happened.
I don't know, I don't think they would have to go so far as to beat him, especially since he doesn't show any bruises or signs of hurting more than the last time we saw him. They could have just asked him why his gun was missing and maybe he just told the truth and they decided to get some revenge.
@dojo32161
True, what I said was an assumption (I did say it was "likely" lol, not that it was a fact.) However my point is, I don't think it's enough to want to kill Arvo based off of an assumption that Arvo willingly told his group about Clem's group, when we simply can't confirm (or deny) that.
And I wouldn't say the Russians were on the best terms with each other. It seemed pretty clear to me that Arvo did not want to be there robbing Clem's group, but Buricko/Vitali absolutely did. Buricko/Vitali seemed like the bullies to me. And Arvo could've had bruises on his torso from them (or he could've not), but we might just never know.
Exactly that's the whole point... we will never know.
Considering the dialogue, that is the evidence for the good terms between them.
Hey that's cool, my definitely male bro lol. I wasn't assuming you were a male or a female, that's why I put "s/he" rather than just "he" or "she." It's funny because I know of a pretty popular fanimator who used the screenname "Crowne Prince;" everyone assumed it was a "he" when really it was a "she," and she'd just chosen that name on purpose to make a kind of joke. But she (as a straight woman) cleared things up when she kept getting messages from other straight women saying they loved her and her work so much lol. She even made an animation about it. >.>
So yeah, you can never be too careful! XD
Agreed.
XD that's funny! I just wanted to clear it up though, that's all.
Everything about that situation makes him look like a bandit, just because hes the ben of a group of bandits doesnt make him any less guilty.
Wow. You change your opinions like socks... and all of them are stinking.
I'm not sure that the Lee dream sequence was for that purpose. People on the forums seem divided about it either being about the betrayal or Jane vs Kenny. I wouldn't presume on what he meant too much as NGB was... messy... Anyway I think some fans are just so attached to certain characters to think anything beyond "ME GOOD, THEY BAD" much less attempt to understand a villain's actions
Honestly as soon as he got to the house he could have killed him right there. He even says "I should let you drown you piece of shit". Then again Episode 5 didn't make a lot of sense to me
I think Kenny does care for Clementine.
I think Kenny did care about her, but was dealing with insanity.
And given what he went through in S1, and S2, that type of loss and trauma would be enough to drive anyone crazy.
Yeah, but everyone has suffered the same amount of loss and trauma. Its what they have inside that affects how they react to it. Clementine by season 2 has lost her parents plus three parent figures and she still held up, I guess some would say too well, for such a small child. I agree that I think Kenny had some instability issues exacerbated by his drinking.
I think you presented your argument rather well.
And I will agree that the writing in some respects didn't make much sense.
I think that the most ridiculous part was having Kenny and Jane battle at the end.
Just to state a fact, men are naturally stronger than women.
So to think that Jane was gonna be able to stand up to Kenny and possibly be able to kill him, is just ridiculous.
Plus, Jane just showing up out of pretty much nowhere, and then being able to cause so much trouble, to me just isn't logical.
I would think that Kenny and Luke battling it out would be far more likely, given that they pretty much butted heads from the start.
I will add more a bit later, so just hang with me.
Clem so little and brave
How often did he actually drink?
Only 1 time did we ever see him drunk, and that was in episode 5 of season 1.
After that time, we never see him take another swig, even when the group was passing the bottle around in S2, during Luke's birthday.
so???
Thats what I was referring too specifically, Kenny getting blotto and snapping at everyone at the end of Season 1. No, we havent seen him drink at all in season 2 but Im trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that there were contributing factors to his behavior and not just that he was plain old nuts. Maybe his drinking didnt contribute and it was just growing psychosis. There was some factor that caused him to lash out and become violent when other people who suffered just as much didnt.
People aren't uniform, not everyone has the same tolerance level for trauma, be it physically or mentally. Everyone might suffer the same amount of trauma, but that doesn't mean everyone will respond in the same way to it. And most of the time, you can't even fault a person for it. Some people just have an inherent bad tolerance for trauma; a relatively easy-to-reach breaking point
Some people can take multiple personal losses of family or friends, even in super traumatic situations (car crash, murder, etc) without breaking down, hell, without shedding a single tear, while someone else could be driven to near-instability from just one person they know dying of natural causes
I don't think it's fair to say that people like this -- people who simply aren't built as solid emotionally or mentally as the people around them -- are in some arbitrary 'wrong', just because other people have suffered the same things as them, or possibly even more, and didn't respond as negatively to it
That's a line of thought that I find rather... foreign, to be quite honest. To me, it just doesn't compute
I dont think I said that unstable people are wrong. You seem to think Im painting all people with one brush and thats not what Im trying to do. Im simply trying to understand why Kenny cant control his rage. There's a difference between breaking down after a traumatic event and getting so uncontrollably violent that you have to be pulled off people. I really do believe there is some underlying cause that was there even before the outbreak happened. The comparison to other people was just in response to that idea that Kenny's behavior is not wrong or as wrong because he somehow suffered more losses than anyone else.
KCohere: Maybe Kenny has PTSD? That would explain some things.