Prior to my episode six playthrough with Asher I liked Gwyn. While I thought she was a bit dodgy and more than just a teensy bit naïve, I thought we had a chance of working with her, at least when compared to our odds of being even slightly cordial with Ludd and Gryff. To me she even seemed genuinely sorry that she couldn't help us after we went to see her and Ludd at Highpoint. After episode six though, all that was over. With every word she said to Asher I became more and more convinced the poor girl had lost her damn mind after being stuck at Highpoint with her bloody awful family. There was just no way anything she was saying was ever going to happen. Like sure, Ludd is going to be totally fine with her wanting to exile Gryff, and we're going to be a big happy family after Ludd being a dick about Ethan being murdered in front of him and sending people to kill us and actually killing Rodrik. She kept saying there'd been enough bloodshed and okay, Gwyn, is that why you stab Asher if he doesn't go along with your batshit plan? She's crazy. Certifiable. I suspect if we don't kill her she'll keep on keeping on with her delusional self and cause us more problems, especially since I assume she's with the Whitehills in all scenarios except the one where she shows up with Talia. -_-
So WHY exactly is Gwyn Whitehill so hated?
To answer your question: people seem to hate her and want to murder her because she's an hypocrite. Because that's what you do kids! You found an hypocrite on the steets? Don't forget to murder him!
You are assuming that the hostage would be subject to constant abuse. The whole point of me even suggesting having a POV there is to show us that there is another side to the Whitehills. That way it would create even more conflict while at the same time making the Whitehills seem less one dimensional. Even if it was only Gwyn that treated us with any care and it was the other Whitehills that were hostile to use it still shows another side to Gwyn.
Playing the hostage, subject to further abuse from the Whitehills, wouldn't exactly do much to make the player like them either. It might gi… moreve us a better look at what Gwyn's up to, but as I said, I think getting to play as her brother will let us see that in S2 anyway.
@Differic. If Telltale chose to do this, i.e. take Gwyn from being a hated conspirator against the Foresters to actually being a victim of … moreher own families actions <-----------THIS, this would be more in keeping with GRRM's style than killing off everyone in sight!
GRRM himself does this when he takes Tyrion, who for most of the story he had made everyone sympathise with. He flipped this on it's head and made us see a darker more monstrous side to him. Then he took Jamie whom everyone had previously despised and though his POV chapters showed us a different more likeable side to him.
really? in my playthought she did this: i called off the plan
elissa went super murder ex machina and tried to kill ludd
it dint work
asher killed gryff
a soldier backstabbed asher
gwyn killed the soldier
everything went like a normal playthought
gwyn saved asher before he was unconscious
Prior to my episode six playthrough with Asher I liked Gwyn. While I thought she was a bit dodgy and more than just a teensy bit naïve, I th… moreought we had a chance of working with her, at least when compared to our odds of being even slightly cordial with Ludd and Gryff. To me she even seemed genuinely sorry that she couldn't help us after we went to see her and Ludd at Highpoint. After episode six though, all that was over. With every word she said to Asher I became more and more convinced the poor girl had lost her damn mind after being stuck at Highpoint with her bloody awful family. There was just no way anything she was saying was ever going to happen. Like sure, Ludd is going to be totally fine with her wanting to exile Gryff, and we're going to be a big happy family after Ludd being a dick about Ethan being murdered in front of him and sending people to kill us and actually killing Rodrik. She kept saying there'd been enough bloodshed an… [view original content]
that s the same thing with alot of games for example:
Mass effect 3 which incorporates choices in the game: paragon and renegade
have a very hated character named: Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational)
which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
that s the same thing with alot of games for example:
Mass effect 3 which incorporates choices in the game: paragon and renegade
have a ve… morery hated character named: Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational)
which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
that s the same thing with alot of games for example:
Mass effect 3 which incorporates choices in the game: paragon and renegade
have a ve… morery hated character named: Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational)
which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
If we get the choice between killing her or not killing her, I won't kill her. Now, at the beginning of the game and in the middle, I found Gwyn annoying and a constant thorn in Rodrik's side. But, by the end of Episode 4, she seemed genuinely sorry for the failing of peace between the Whitehills and Forresters, and in my playthrough with Asher's death, she seemed to finally realize that her father and his army won't listen to reason and there is no swindling them. With this, and her knowledge of her father's plan to attack Ironrath, she warned House Forrester of the impending siege and proved useful. For those reasons, I will not kill her if we get the chance in Season 2. She helped me in my playthrough and I believe that she always had good intentions at her heart.
While I do agree that her plans of peace if you choose Asher are very delusional and won't happen, I don't blame her for stabbing Asher if you don't call of the plan. In her eyes, she feels betrayed by the fact that the man she loved back then wouldn't even listen nor try to resolve the war peacefully and marry her. Sure, she does still stab Asher in the back (literally) and basically cause him to lose his fight with Harys, but her choice at that point was fueled by emotion and if she truly thought about it, I don't think she would have stabbed Asher. Maybe I'm bias towards her because she takes the more cunning options (at least in her eyes), but I truly believe that her intentions were good at heart and that she is a good person.
Prior to my episode six playthrough with Asher I liked Gwyn. While I thought she was a bit dodgy and more than just a teensy bit naïve, I th… moreought we had a chance of working with her, at least when compared to our odds of being even slightly cordial with Ludd and Gryff. To me she even seemed genuinely sorry that she couldn't help us after we went to see her and Ludd at Highpoint. After episode six though, all that was over. With every word she said to Asher I became more and more convinced the poor girl had lost her damn mind after being stuck at Highpoint with her bloody awful family. There was just no way anything she was saying was ever going to happen. Like sure, Ludd is going to be totally fine with her wanting to exile Gryff, and we're going to be a big happy family after Ludd being a dick about Ethan being murdered in front of him and sending people to kill us and actually killing Rodrik. She kept saying there'd been enough bloodshed an… [view original content]
Like I said in my previous post, that might give us a better view of whatever Gwyn is doing to help in Highpoint. However, even if Ryon's only occasionally abused in the manner you described, the player character is still the victim and it won't really solve much in terms of eliciting sympathy for the antagonists as a whole (which is the point I'm trying to make). Playing as an actual Whitehill, getting to see events through their eyes and interact with other family members through them is the best way to balance the scales.
You are assuming that the hostage would be subject to constant abuse. The whole point of me even suggesting having a POV there is to show u… mores that there is another side to the Whitehills. That way it would create even more conflict while at the same time making the Whitehills seem less one dimensional. Even if it was only Gwyn that treated us with any care and it was the other Whitehills that were hostile to use it still shows another side to Gwyn.
that s the same thing with alot of games for example:
Mass effect 3 which incorporates choices in the game: paragon and renegade
have a ve… morery hated character named: Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational)
which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
Female characters seem to get hated with much more venom than male characters.
Its nothing to do with her being female
Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational) which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
You cant generalize whole fanbase, especially ashley a main character who to be fair is pretty horrible in 2 and an antagonist a lot in 3 with two DLC characters. I liked all three to be honest.
For what I've seen, Gwyn is getting more hate than Gryff, Ludd or Ramsey (game wise).
And the wirst is this character never actively does something against you.
Again those other three are villains, their designed to be hated. Gwyn clearly isnt, shes designed to be seen as heroic or a help to the Forrester but comes across hypocritical, whiny and irritating. These types of characters often get the most hatred, these characters are often women as well which is probably why people make that connection. I hate Ramsey and Ludd as villans, however Gryff and Gwyn just irritate me, if they tried to make me like them they failed. I mean I disliked some of the others in the series but Elissa for example grew on me over time, even thought the character still did annoying things.
So WHY exactly is Gwyn Whitehill so hated?
To answer your question: people seem to hate her and want to murder her because she's an hypocrite. Because that's what you do kids! You found an hypocrite on the steets? Don't forget to murder him!
I started laughing when Ashley said that, i thought she meant all the aliens. I was actually disapppointed when i found out that she only meant the keepers.
She was definitely one of my favorite characters. But bioware loved Liara, so they probably tried to make people dislike Ashley or some stupid shit like that.
that s the same thing with alot of games for example:
Mass effect 3 which incorporates choices in the game: paragon and renegade
have a ve… morery hated character named: Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational)
which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
So WHY exactly is Gwyn Whitehill so hated?
I've said why several times.
Female characters seem to get hated with much more ven… moreom than male characters.
Its nothing to do with her being female
Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational) which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
You cant generalize whole fanbase, especially ashley a main character who to be fair is pretty horrible in 2 and an antagonist a lot in 3 with two DLC characters. I liked all three to be honest.
For what I've seen… [view original content]
doesnt look like it since in the early episodes beskha got alot of hate too
especially ashley a main character who to be fair is pretty horrible in 2 and an antagonist a lot in 3
in 2 ppl we re like this:
kaiden says those things (the guy you can choose over her)
and everyone s like: fine no problem
ashley says that: FUCK YOU! YOU SUCK!
comes across as hypocritical
which is why she helped me in my finale ... and was with asher in the ending
plus killing a guard to save me
and also the fact she warns you of ludd s coming when you play as rodrik
So WHY exactly is Gwyn Whitehill so hated?
I've said why several times.
Female characters seem to get hated with much more ven… moreom than male characters.
Its nothing to do with her being female
Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational) which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
You cant generalize whole fanbase, especially ashley a main character who to be fair is pretty horrible in 2 and an antagonist a lot in 3 with two DLC characters. I liked all three to be honest.
For what I've seen… [view original content]
I dont think you can say that with complete certainty unless you know what people are thinking. In my view, based on some of the more diturbing comments, that does seem to be a factor.
So WHY exactly is Gwyn Whitehill so hated?
I've said why several times.
Female characters seem to get hated with much more ven… moreom than male characters.
Its nothing to do with her being female
Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational) which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
You cant generalize whole fanbase, especially ashley a main character who to be fair is pretty horrible in 2 and an antagonist a lot in 3 with two DLC characters. I liked all three to be honest.
For what I've seen… [view original content]
I did not said Fireallcano hates Gwyn because of her gender. He's already said his reasons for hating her ,which I disagree with, but respect.
No my point is, Gwyn a relatively inocent woman that never acts against you gets more hate than 2 completely not inocent men that are trying to kill you through the whole game!
Oh, and there's more examples:
Sarah in TWD, people hated her because she couldn't be something she was not.
Bonnie getting more hate then Mike even tho they betray you the same.
Lilly. Now don't get me wrong Lilly shoting Carley is a totally fine reason for hating her, but now tell me why does she get such hate and Nick doesn't? He shot Mathew without ANY reason but most of the people forgave him 20 minutes after. How is this understandable?
No, only that based on the comments Ive read, the anger and hatred heaped on her character seems not in proportion to what she actually did. It seems to me that some male characters who have done worse are excused more. Its not just specific to this character, just something Ive noticed over time. Also, some of the comments have an ugly sexual overtone to them that I dont think would be there if it was a man.
It's not really a gender thing.... people hate Bonnie more than Mike because she wrongly made Clem feel guilty about Luke. People hate Lilly more than Nick because she killed a character who many were starting to develop feelings for, whereas Nick killed someone who was a stranger at the time. Also, a lot of people hated Duck for being a relatively useless child, so again I really don't think we can simply boil it down to women hatred.
I did not said Fireallcano hates Gwyn because of her gender. He's already said his reasons for hating her ,which I disagree with, but respec… moret.
No my point is, Gwyn a relatively inocent woman that never acts against you gets more hate than 2 completely not inocent men that are trying to kill you through the whole game!
Oh, and there's more examples:
* Sarah in TWD, people hated her because she couldn't be something she was not.
* Bonnie getting more hate then Mike even tho they betray you the same.
* Lilly. Now don't get me wrong Lilly shoting Carley is a totally fine reason for hating her, but now tell me why does she get such hate and Nick doesn't? He shot Mathew without ANY reason but most of the people forgave him 20 minutes after. How is this understandable?
I may be wrong, but I see a patern here.
He's already said his reasons for hating her ,which I disagree with, but respect.
Firstly thanks, and I hope you realise I feel the same about your opinions, I like debate about things, disagree to opinions not people.
Also i've already mentioned everything I think about Gwyn however to approach your other points
Sarah in TWD, people hated her because she couldn't be something she was not.
I've also discussed Sarah a lot and overall I agree she got hate exaggerated to what the character did. However again I think that for the vast majority of players, they didnt hate sarah. They just didnt care. This is arguably just as bad and I admit there was a group of players who did want sarah to die, but even these players were just about inaction. To compare in season 1 the hate ben got was even worse, after episode 3 there were numerous threads about wanting to kill ben and that there should have been an option to push him of the train. Albeit Ben did worse than Sarah but again like her most hate for Ben came from him being useless. This hate died down after ben had several horrific deaths in later episodes (like Sarah) because again this is because the character was now dead and the people who hate the character are satisfied.
Bonnie getting more hate then Mike even tho they betray you the same.
See i'm in this group and I think its pretty justified. Firstly the betrayl in episode 5 didnt really bother me that much. Kenny was an absolute nutcase, Jane was a weird loner and Clem was clearly intended to be Kenny's puppet. As such that doesnt bother me that much, I can understand it at least. However Bonnie is more culpable on several other occasions
She was originally playable- This automatically gives the player more supposed confidence in Bonnie and makes the betrayal feel more personal
Bonnie betrays the group twice. Again the "betrayal" in episode 2 never really bothered me as in my opinion bonnie didnt betray anyone.She was with carver to catch the escapees, she just lied as an excuse. Still many hate her more for this
Her actions on the lake and after. Now I liked Bonnie quite a bit before this scene. On the ice I realized it was useless to go back to luke, the ice would break and we'd both die. Bonnie then doesnt listen to clem and luke and promptly gets luke (and nearly her and clem) killed. This annoyed me a lot and in the shack bonnies snide comment about clem not helping made me memorably snap at her however it was outside that was the worse. Bonnies rant at clementine has to be my angriest moment of the whole season, who does this miserable, hypocritical, idiotic junkie think she is to be upset at anybody? And worse still again there is no response to this, clem just stands there like a chump. regardless to say I hate bonnie after that moment and her and arvo should hope I never see them again.
Now I understand point 3 is determinant but even if you go the best route for bonnie and worse for mike, the worst thing mike can ever do is say they should leave clem, after shes already been shot and as he knows kenny will kill them. But of course bonnie can also end up doing the same thing so that null and void.
As such thats why I hate Bonnie more than Mike, coming from a person who liked Bonnie for the rest of the season.
Lilly. Now don't get me wrong Lilly shoting Carley is a totally fine reason for hating her, but now tell me why does she get such hate and Nick doesn't? He shot Mathew without ANY reason but most of the people forgave him 20 minutes after. How is this understandable?
I also feel Lilly gets a bit too much hate though again this comes more from my first playthrough, which ultimately ends up having a bigger influence on peoples opinions.
In my game Lilly shot Doug by mistake and was immediately regretful, as such while I didnt exactly like her I kept her with us and to be fair was relieved when she left on her own accord. I may have been at odds with Kenny but he was right that she couldnt stay with us after what she did, there are limits.
However I'll argue your point the majority of players received - The scene in where Lilly kills Carley (and as thats the scene you mentioned). There are several similarities however there are some differences.
She kills in cold blood for no immediate reason. Lilly deliberately shoots carley in the face because carley was raging at her, there might be some unstable bigger reason in lilly's head but that here say. The motel is gone. Nick on the other hand shoots at matthew to protect clem and luke albeit stupidly and he also appears to not want to kill him. Asking immediately where the guy is. to be honest that bridge scene is all over the place as well, given everything that happens on it.
We know and care about who she killed. Lilly shoots carley, a character the audience cares about and many were beginning to see as love interest. Arguably carley was a lot of peoples favorite character. Compare this to Matthew who we know for five minutes (probably less), I'm sure matthew was nice enough however while I understand some people form bonds quickly there is still no way people cared as much about him. In addition to this Carley was from our group, matthew wasnt
This isnt the end for Nicks character.
It might as well be, but for the vast majority of players Nick got to stick around for a while and as such peoples anger at him reduced, new thoughts and changes to our relationship with him were made. Lilly's final action for all players is murdering a likable member of the group
4 Perhaps most important but again Nick dies. Within the same episode Nick can be brutally eaten alive by a walker onscreen. And this more than anything is why Nick isnt hated as much. I'm sure there would have been dozens of Nick despising threads however the people who would have made them saw Nick eaten alive and as such they didnt make them. Lilly on the other hand walks away scott free and this is why people hate her so much.
So to conclude the pattern for me isnt gender its "justice". If a character can die or be responded to for what they did then they dont get as much hate as the people who would hate them get their "revenge".
Oh and I realize Bonnie can die, but she does so a hero and before she does any of the things that make me hate her.
I did not said Fireallcano hates Gwyn because of her gender. He's already said his reasons for hating her ,which I disagree with, but respec… moret.
No my point is, Gwyn a relatively inocent woman that never acts against you gets more hate than 2 completely not inocent men that are trying to kill you through the whole game!
Oh, and there's more examples:
* Sarah in TWD, people hated her because she couldn't be something she was not.
* Bonnie getting more hate then Mike even tho they betray you the same.
* Lilly. Now don't get me wrong Lilly shoting Carley is a totally fine reason for hating her, but now tell me why does she get such hate and Nick doesn't? He shot Mathew without ANY reason but most of the people forgave him 20 minutes after. How is this understandable?
I may be wrong, but I see a patern here.
I don't even know who those three characters are? I have no playthrough with Asher alive so i don't know what happens in episode six with Gwyn.
And sure she relatively innocent, but peace for her means that the Forresters should bend the knee and pretend everything is great. If the Forresters submit to the whitehill's they win and the Forresters lose. Gwyn is also meant to be the whitehill that we are meant to feel sympathetic against. But that does not work for me when she goes behind her family's back, so it backfires.
I don't dislike Ludd, he behaves like most lords in westeros would do in his situation. Especially considering the history between the both family's. Gryff is just pathetic.
I did not said Fireallcano hates Gwyn because of her gender. He's already said his reasons for hating her ,which I disagree with, but respec… moret.
No my point is, Gwyn a relatively inocent woman that never acts against you gets more hate than 2 completely not inocent men that are trying to kill you through the whole game!
Oh, and there's more examples:
* Sarah in TWD, people hated her because she couldn't be something she was not.
* Bonnie getting more hate then Mike even tho they betray you the same.
* Lilly. Now don't get me wrong Lilly shoting Carley is a totally fine reason for hating her, but now tell me why does she get such hate and Nick doesn't? He shot Mathew without ANY reason but most of the people forgave him 20 minutes after. How is this understandable?
I may be wrong, but I see a patern here.
It just felt like you played the victim card, which makes me go on the defensive. I'll admit that i acted in haste considering your comment was not directed at anyone specific.
No, only that based on the comments Ive read, the anger and hatred heaped on her character seems not in proportion to what she actually did.… more It seems to me that some male characters who have done worse are excused more. Its not just specific to this character, just something Ive noticed over time. Also, some of the comments have an ugly sexual overtone to them that I dont think would be there if it was a man.
It just felt like you played the victim card, which makes me go on the defensive. I'll admit that i acted in haste considering your comment was not directed at anyone specific.
That is not the point. He wasn't trying to suddenly make you love Jamie or despise Tyrion. He was doing this to show us another side to their character. He was trying to show us that these characters are not your typical archetypal good and baddie characters. They have their own reasons and motives for doing the things they do, whether you agree or approve of these reasons is up to you as the reader/viewer.
I don't even know who those three characters are? I have no playthrough with Asher alive so i don't know what happens in episode six with… more Gwyn.
And sure she relatively innocent, but peace for her means that the Forresters should bend the knee and pretend everything is great. If the Forresters submit to the whitehill's they win and the Forresters lose. Gwyn is also meant to be the whitehill that we are meant to feel sympathetic against. But that does not work for me when she goes behind her family's back, so it backfires.
I don't dislike Ludd, he behaves like most lords in westeros would do in his situation. Especially considering the history between the both family's. Gryff is just pathetic.
No, I get it. I understand what Martin was doing with Jaime and the Hound, who is the same kind of start off terrible, but does some heroic things and shows his better side sometimes, kind of character arc. The get to like them part just didnt work on me personally, lol. I appreciate what they did but I still find them to be odious people.
Tyrion in the books is just obnoxious. He is way more likable in the show.
That is not the point. He wasn't trying to suddenly make you love Jamie or despise Tyrion. He was doing this to show us another side to th… moreeir character. He was trying to show us that these characters are not your typical archetypal good and baddie characters. They have their own reasons and motives for doing the things they do, whether you agree or approve of these reasons is up to you as the reader/viewer.
I know right, it seems the forums are flooded with these nasty comments a lot lately. I try to ignore them, they're not worth my time. There are better responses that actually express an opinion without being disgusting about it. So I tend to focus on reading and responding to those instead.
No, only that based on the comments Ive read, the anger and hatred heaped on her character seems not in proportion to what she actually did.… more It seems to me that some male characters who have done worse are excused more. Its not just specific to this character, just something Ive noticed over time. Also, some of the comments have an ugly sexual overtone to them that I dont think would be there if it was a man.
Exactly, unfortunately a lot of people really can't see anything further than their own hand. That coupled with the fact that there are a lot of people who have never read the books or even seen the show, so they don't really know how things work in Westeros. Thankfully there are still some people on these boards who actually do have interesting things to contribute and make some pretty good arguments.
you guys need to look at it differently. While Gwyn's statements may seem callous (and hypocritical), look at it from another angle: if you … moreagree to her plan and call off your efforts to kill the Whitehills, you're showing her that you can be trusted. Then, when all hell breaks loose, Gryff dies in the chaos and she sees that her family is never going to be persuaded into doing anything. With the other brother studying at the Citadel and possibly becoming a Maester, he would have no claims to the Whitehill lands potentially. This would leave Gwyn as the next person to take control of the Whitehill lands should something happen to Torrhen, once Ludd kicks the bucket -- which Gwyn will help you accomplish now. And given Westeros' brutality, it's likely Torrhen might die himself just from the wars going on, fighting for House Bolton.
I think Telltale would go that route so they could have Gryff assume control and be the tyrant he's always dre… [view original content]
Hehe, that explains a lot. In my Asher playthrough I told Gwyn that her family was the problem and that I wouldn't promise her anything, then I didn't call off the plan and I let mom drink the wine because geez I thought she was going to pretend or something and I wanted to play it cool. Then Ludd died and Gwyn came up and stabbed Asher at the end. Talia and my sentinel Royland showed up and saved my Asher, which is just fine with me. I thought Gwyn could possibly help since the moment she showed up at the funeral but I wasn't going to take the chance of her trying to lull us into a false sense of security. I felt she was genuine but I had no idea if Ludd wasn't going to manipulate her to use her as a tool. TL;DR trust no Whitehill. ¯\ (ツ)/¯
really? in my playthought she did this: i called off the plan
elissa went super murder ex machina and tried to kill ludd
it dint work
ash… moreer killed gryff
a soldier backstabbed asher
gwyn killed the soldier
everything went like a normal playthought
gwyn saved asher before he was unconscious
I get why she did it and why she felt that way, and I feel sorry for her because I think her life after Asher (and maybe even before) must have been really crappy. Still, the fact she's in la la land kind of undermines the justification of everything she does in episode six for me. It struck me as a little messed up right away that she just assumed that their marriage is something Asher would just agree to, I mean, he hasn't been stuck in a house for four plus years, maybe he's moved on! I respect her for making her own choices and trying to work things out herself, but she really didn't have her head 100% on her shoulders and had unrealistic expectations from the first and in episode six she seemed to gain a really selfish aspect. The marriage was obviously something she wanted and talked Ludd into somehow because if it would have been fine, why didn't they just get married before... it concerns me too that if you kill Ludd she stabs Asher, but if you go along with her plan and end up killing Gryff she doesn't seem to give two damns. What exactly are her loyalties, even?
In a way it's whatever since in my "canon" playthrough I saved Rodders and she and I are cool since she told us Ludd and Gryff were coming. That she did without any psychotic hope of ending up with Asher again and it was the third big risk she took for us after meeting Rodrik and convincing her dad to have us come talk to him. I guess my Rodrik still likes her, but my Asher has beef, so I'm conflicted. :P
While I do agree that her plans of peace if you choose Asher are very delusional and won't happen, I don't blame her for stabbing Asher if y… moreou don't call of the plan. In her eyes, she feels betrayed by the fact that the man she loved back then wouldn't even listen nor try to resolve the war peacefully and marry her. Sure, she does still stab Asher in the back (literally) and basically cause him to lose his fight with Harys, but her choice at that point was fueled by emotion and if she truly thought about it, I don't think she would have stabbed Asher. Maybe I'm bias towards her because she takes the more cunning options (at least in her eyes), but I truly believe that her intentions were good at heart and that she is a good person.
I was the one who pointed out Gwyn's hypocritical statements about "knowing how we feel".
The girl is either dumb as a bag of hammers or is level 101 in manipulation. Either way I was fed up with her by episode 6. Barging in on Ethan and Gregor's funeral, messing with Rodrik's head, fooling with us and making us vulnerable at Highpoint by locking us in a room of crossbowmen.... I am absolutely done with her and her inflated ego, as well as her absolutely wretched family.
And for the record, the second she stabbed Asher I was looking for the option to plant my blade in her skull. I would go full Harys on this scheming bitch.
Maybe cause we're tired of her bullshit. She claims it will help the Forresters if they follow her family's orders without question, if they… more bend the knee without a fight and submit to the Whitehills completely. She proposes they forget the fact that her family MURDERED Rodrik and then casually strolls to the hall where her father smiled, as Ramsay murdered Ethan. And then she tries to play with Asher's head and under the charade of "peace" , she begs him not to hurt her disgusting family. And then there's the fact of her extreme hypocrisy. 3 prime examples are:
* Gryff murders Rodrik at the harbor, Gwyn doesn't even warn the Forresters about the ambush. Her reaction: "We can make this work..." or "That's all in the past..."
* Asher kills Gryff in a fair fight, avenging his brothers. Before the ambush he warns Gwyn that he cannot promise not to hurt her family. Her reaction: "You ruined everything!"
* Rodrik arrives at Highpoint: Ro… [view original content]
Comments
Prior to my episode six playthrough with Asher I liked Gwyn. While I thought she was a bit dodgy and more than just a teensy bit naïve, I thought we had a chance of working with her, at least when compared to our odds of being even slightly cordial with Ludd and Gryff. To me she even seemed genuinely sorry that she couldn't help us after we went to see her and Ludd at Highpoint. After episode six though, all that was over. With every word she said to Asher I became more and more convinced the poor girl had lost her damn mind after being stuck at Highpoint with her bloody awful family. There was just no way anything she was saying was ever going to happen. Like sure, Ludd is going to be totally fine with her wanting to exile Gryff, and we're going to be a big happy family after Ludd being a dick about Ethan being murdered in front of him and sending people to kill us and actually killing Rodrik. She kept saying there'd been enough bloodshed and okay, Gwyn, is that why you stab Asher if he doesn't go along with your batshit plan? She's crazy. Certifiable. I suspect if we don't kill her she'll keep on keeping on with her delusional self and cause us more problems, especially since I assume she's with the Whitehills in all scenarios except the one where she shows up with Talia. -_-
haaaa
i think he should fuq her right in the p%ssy
Female characters seem to get hated with much more venom than male characters. Just reading some of these comments is disturbing.
You are assuming that the hostage would be subject to constant abuse. The whole point of me even suggesting having a POV there is to show us that there is another side to the Whitehills. That way it would create even more conflict while at the same time making the Whitehills seem less one dimensional. Even if it was only Gwyn that treated us with any care and it was the other Whitehills that were hostile to use it still shows another side to Gwyn.
Meh, I still hate Jamie.
really? in my playthought she did this: i called off the plan
elissa went super murder ex machina and tried to kill ludd
it dint work
asher killed gryff
a soldier backstabbed asher
gwyn killed the soldier
everything went like a normal playthought
gwyn saved asher before he was unconscious
which is why when i called off the plan she saved my ass two times
that s the same thing with alot of games for example:
Mass effect 3 which incorporates choices in the game: paragon and renegade
have a very hated character named: Ashley who is supposedly racist because she said this line towards a non sentient alien (doesnt talk also irrational)
which fixes the things in the first game (One of them cause there are a lot of em) : i cant tell the aliens from the animals (which was aimed specifically to those aliens named keepers) everyone hated her whilst characters like: Javik who is a major A-hole racist gets alot of praise and Zaaed a mercenary who tried to let civilians be burned just to get his target was liked by the fans ...
any of the games from that series
.
If we get the choice between killing her or not killing her, I won't kill her. Now, at the beginning of the game and in the middle, I found Gwyn annoying and a constant thorn in Rodrik's side. But, by the end of Episode 4, she seemed genuinely sorry for the failing of peace between the Whitehills and Forresters, and in my playthrough with Asher's death, she seemed to finally realize that her father and his army won't listen to reason and there is no swindling them. With this, and her knowledge of her father's plan to attack Ironrath, she warned House Forrester of the impending siege and proved useful. For those reasons, I will not kill her if we get the chance in Season 2. She helped me in my playthrough and I believe that she always had good intentions at her heart.
While I do agree that her plans of peace if you choose Asher are very delusional and won't happen, I don't blame her for stabbing Asher if you don't call of the plan. In her eyes, she feels betrayed by the fact that the man she loved back then wouldn't even listen nor try to resolve the war peacefully and marry her. Sure, she does still stab Asher in the back (literally) and basically cause him to lose his fight with Harys, but her choice at that point was fueled by emotion and if she truly thought about it, I don't think she would have stabbed Asher. Maybe I'm bias towards her because she takes the more cunning options (at least in her eyes), but I truly believe that her intentions were good at heart and that she is a good person.
Like I said in my previous post, that might give us a better view of whatever Gwyn is doing to help in Highpoint. However, even if Ryon's only occasionally abused in the manner you described, the player character is still the victim and it won't really solve much in terms of eliciting sympathy for the antagonists as a whole (which is the point I'm trying to make). Playing as an actual Whitehill, getting to see events through their eyes and interact with other family members through them is the best way to balance the scales.
I notice that a lot in tv shows too. As a woman, it can be disheartening.
For what I've seen, Gwyn is getting more hate than Gryff, Ludd or Ramsey (game wise).
And the wirst is this character never actively does something against you.
I haven't been in other game communities but it disgusts me to think that this uneeded hate towards female characters is a norma.
I've said why several times.
Its nothing to do with her being female
You cant generalize whole fanbase, especially ashley a main character who to be fair is pretty horrible in 2 and an antagonist a lot in 3 with two DLC characters. I liked all three to be honest.
Again those other three are villains, their designed to be hated. Gwyn clearly isnt, shes designed to be seen as heroic or a help to the Forrester but comes across hypocritical, whiny and irritating. These types of characters often get the most hatred, these characters are often women as well which is probably why people make that connection. I hate Ramsey and Ludd as villans, however Gryff and Gwyn just irritate me, if they tried to make me like them they failed. I mean I disliked some of the others in the series but Elissa for example grew on me over time, even thought the character still did annoying things.
I started laughing when Ashley said that, i thought she meant all the aliens. I was actually disapppointed when i found out that she only meant the keepers.
She was definitely one of my favorite characters. But bioware loved Liara, so they probably tried to make people dislike Ashley or some stupid shit like that.
It is pointless to point out these things to certain people. They can not accept other peoples opinions, so they blame it on that she is a woman.
you could repeat it
doesnt look like it since in the early episodes beskha got alot of hate too
in 2 ppl we re like this:
kaiden says those things (the guy you can choose over her)
and everyone s like: fine no problem
ashley says that: FUCK YOU! YOU SUCK!
which is why she helped me in my finale ... and was with asher in the ending
plus killing a guard to save me
and also the fact she warns you of ludd s coming when you play as rodrik
Or they simply have a different opinion? Just because someone doesnt have the same point of view doesnt mean they dont accept other people's opinions.
I dont think you can say that with complete certainty unless you know what people are thinking. In my view, based on some of the more diturbing comments, that does seem to be a factor.
With your earlier comment you make it seem like she is disliked because she is a woman.
I did not said Fireallcano hates Gwyn because of her gender. He's already said his reasons for hating her ,which I disagree with, but respect.
No my point is, Gwyn a relatively inocent woman that never acts against you gets more hate than 2 completely not inocent men that are trying to kill you through the whole game!
Oh, and there's more examples:
Sarah in TWD, people hated her because she couldn't be something she was not.
Bonnie getting more hate then Mike even tho they betray you the same.
Lilly. Now don't get me wrong Lilly shoting Carley is a totally fine reason for hating her, but now tell me why does she get such hate and Nick doesn't? He shot Mathew without ANY reason but most of the people forgave him 20 minutes after. How is this understandable?
I may be wrong, but I see a patern here.
No, only that based on the comments Ive read, the anger and hatred heaped on her character seems not in proportion to what she actually did. It seems to me that some male characters who have done worse are excused more. Its not just specific to this character, just something Ive noticed over time. Also, some of the comments have an ugly sexual overtone to them that I dont think would be there if it was a man.
It's not really a gender thing.... people hate Bonnie more than Mike because she wrongly made Clem feel guilty about Luke. People hate Lilly more than Nick because she killed a character who many were starting to develop feelings for, whereas Nick killed someone who was a stranger at the time. Also, a lot of people hated Duck for being a relatively useless child, so again I really don't think we can simply boil it down to women hatred.
Firstly thanks, and I hope you realise I feel the same about your opinions, I like debate about things, disagree to opinions not people.
Also i've already mentioned everything I think about Gwyn however to approach your other points
I've also discussed Sarah a lot and overall I agree she got hate exaggerated to what the character did. However again I think that for the vast majority of players, they didnt hate sarah. They just didnt care. This is arguably just as bad and I admit there was a group of players who did want sarah to die, but even these players were just about inaction. To compare in season 1 the hate ben got was even worse, after episode 3 there were numerous threads about wanting to kill ben and that there should have been an option to push him of the train. Albeit Ben did worse than Sarah but again like her most hate for Ben came from him being useless. This hate died down after ben had several horrific deaths in later episodes (like Sarah) because again this is because the character was now dead and the people who hate the character are satisfied.
See i'm in this group and I think its pretty justified. Firstly the betrayl in episode 5 didnt really bother me that much. Kenny was an absolute nutcase, Jane was a weird loner and Clem was clearly intended to be Kenny's puppet. As such that doesnt bother me that much, I can understand it at least. However Bonnie is more culpable on several other occasions
She was originally playable- This automatically gives the player more supposed confidence in Bonnie and makes the betrayal feel more personal
Bonnie betrays the group twice. Again the "betrayal" in episode 2 never really bothered me as in my opinion bonnie didnt betray anyone.She was with carver to catch the escapees, she just lied as an excuse. Still many hate her more for this
Her actions on the lake and after. Now I liked Bonnie quite a bit before this scene. On the ice I realized it was useless to go back to luke, the ice would break and we'd both die. Bonnie then doesnt listen to clem and luke and promptly gets luke (and nearly her and clem) killed. This annoyed me a lot and in the shack bonnies snide comment about clem not helping made me memorably snap at her however it was outside that was the worse. Bonnies rant at clementine has to be my angriest moment of the whole season, who does this miserable, hypocritical, idiotic junkie think she is to be upset at anybody? And worse still again there is no response to this, clem just stands there like a chump. regardless to say I hate bonnie after that moment and her and arvo should hope I never see them again.
Now I understand point 3 is determinant but even if you go the best route for bonnie and worse for mike, the worst thing mike can ever do is say they should leave clem, after shes already been shot and as he knows kenny will kill them. But of course bonnie can also end up doing the same thing so that null and void.
As such thats why I hate Bonnie more than Mike, coming from a person who liked Bonnie for the rest of the season.
I also feel Lilly gets a bit too much hate though again this comes more from my first playthrough, which ultimately ends up having a bigger influence on peoples opinions.
In my game Lilly shot Doug by mistake and was immediately regretful, as such while I didnt exactly like her I kept her with us and to be fair was relieved when she left on her own accord. I may have been at odds with Kenny but he was right that she couldnt stay with us after what she did, there are limits.
However I'll argue your point the majority of players received - The scene in where Lilly kills Carley (and as thats the scene you mentioned). There are several similarities however there are some differences.
She kills in cold blood for no immediate reason. Lilly deliberately shoots carley in the face because carley was raging at her, there might be some unstable bigger reason in lilly's head but that here say. The motel is gone. Nick on the other hand shoots at matthew to protect clem and luke albeit stupidly and he also appears to not want to kill him. Asking immediately where the guy is. to be honest that bridge scene is all over the place as well, given everything that happens on it.
We know and care about who she killed. Lilly shoots carley, a character the audience cares about and many were beginning to see as love interest. Arguably carley was a lot of peoples favorite character. Compare this to Matthew who we know for five minutes (probably less), I'm sure matthew was nice enough however while I understand some people form bonds quickly there is still no way people cared as much about him. In addition to this Carley was from our group, matthew wasnt
This isnt the end for Nicks character.
It might as well be, but for the vast majority of players Nick got to stick around for a while and as such peoples anger at him reduced, new thoughts and changes to our relationship with him were made. Lilly's final action for all players is murdering a likable member of the group
4 Perhaps most important but again Nick dies. Within the same episode Nick can be brutally eaten alive by a walker onscreen. And this more than anything is why Nick isnt hated as much. I'm sure there would have been dozens of Nick despising threads however the people who would have made them saw Nick eaten alive and as such they didnt make them. Lilly on the other hand walks away scott free and this is why people hate her so much.
So to conclude the pattern for me isnt gender its "justice". If a character can die or be responded to for what they did then they dont get as much hate as the people who would hate them get their "revenge".
Oh and I realize Bonnie can die, but she does so a hero and before she does any of the things that make me hate her.
I don't even know who those three characters are? I have no playthrough with Asher alive so i don't know what happens in episode six with Gwyn.
And sure she relatively innocent, but peace for her means that the Forresters should bend the knee and pretend everything is great. If the Forresters submit to the whitehill's they win and the Forresters lose. Gwyn is also meant to be the whitehill that we are meant to feel sympathetic against. But that does not work for me when she goes behind her family's back, so it backfires.
I don't dislike Ludd, he behaves like most lords in westeros would do in his situation. Especially considering the history between the both family's. Gryff is just pathetic.
It just felt like you played the victim card, which makes me go on the defensive. I'll admit that i acted in haste considering your comment was not directed at anyone specific.
That's fine, no harm done.
That is not the point. He wasn't trying to suddenly make you love Jamie or despise Tyrion. He was doing this to show us another side to their character. He was trying to show us that these characters are not your typical archetypal good and baddie characters. They have their own reasons and motives for doing the things they do, whether you agree or approve of these reasons is up to you as the reader/viewer.
They're Walking Dead characters
No, I get it. I understand what Martin was doing with Jaime and the Hound, who is the same kind of start off terrible, but does some heroic things and shows his better side sometimes, kind of character arc. The get to like them part just didnt work on me personally, lol. I appreciate what they did but I still find them to be odious people.
Tyrion in the books is just obnoxious. He is way more likable in the show.
Ok.
I know right, it seems the forums are flooded with these nasty comments a lot lately. I try to ignore them, they're not worth my time. There are better responses that actually express an opinion without being disgusting about it. So I tend to focus on reading and responding to those instead.
Exactly, unfortunately a lot of people really can't see anything further than their own hand. That coupled with the fact that there are a lot of people who have never read the books or even seen the show, so they don't really know how things work in Westeros. Thankfully there are still some people on these boards who actually do have interesting things to contribute and make some pretty good arguments.
Hehe, that explains a lot. In my Asher playthrough I told Gwyn that her family was the problem and that I wouldn't promise her anything, then I didn't call off the plan and I let mom drink the wine because geez I thought she was going to pretend or something and I wanted to play it cool. Then Ludd died and Gwyn came up and stabbed Asher at the end. Talia and my sentinel Royland showed up and saved my Asher, which is just fine with me. I thought Gwyn could possibly help since the moment she showed up at the funeral but I wasn't going to take the chance of her trying to lull us into a false sense of security. I felt she was genuine but I had no idea if Ludd wasn't going to manipulate her to use her as a tool. TL;DR trust no Whitehill. ¯\ (ツ)/¯
I get why she did it and why she felt that way, and I feel sorry for her because I think her life after Asher (and maybe even before) must have been really crappy. Still, the fact she's in la la land kind of undermines the justification of everything she does in episode six for me. It struck me as a little messed up right away that she just assumed that their marriage is something Asher would just agree to, I mean, he hasn't been stuck in a house for four plus years, maybe he's moved on! I respect her for making her own choices and trying to work things out herself, but she really didn't have her head 100% on her shoulders and had unrealistic expectations from the first and in episode six she seemed to gain a really selfish aspect. The marriage was obviously something she wanted and talked Ludd into somehow because if it would have been fine, why didn't they just get married before... it concerns me too that if you kill Ludd she stabs Asher, but if you go along with her plan and end up killing Gryff she doesn't seem to give two damns. What exactly are her loyalties, even?
In a way it's whatever since in my "canon" playthrough I saved Rodders and she and I are cool since she told us Ludd and Gryff were coming. That she did without any psychotic hope of ending up with Asher again and it was the third big risk she took for us after meeting Rodrik and convincing her dad to have us come talk to him. I guess my Rodrik still likes her, but my Asher has beef, so I'm conflicted. :P
Well, her voice is kinda stupid...
I was the one who pointed out Gwyn's hypocritical statements about "knowing how we feel".
The girl is either dumb as a bag of hammers or is level 101 in manipulation. Either way I was fed up with her by episode 6. Barging in on Ethan and Gregor's funeral, messing with Rodrik's head, fooling with us and making us vulnerable at Highpoint by locking us in a room of crossbowmen.... I am absolutely done with her and her inflated ego, as well as her absolutely wretched family.
And for the record, the second she stabbed Asher I was looking for the option to plant my blade in her skull. I would go full Harys on this scheming bitch.